Evidence of prophecy

[huria]

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As you wish.. yet it does not seem incongruous to you to seek validation of sorts from scriptures that you believe to be corrupted?

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It is not validation for our message, the message of Islam is very clear in the Quran, Allah made it very clear to us, no vague passages about who we should worship, or ambiguity this mean that or another, it is crystal clear,
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him. (Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)

The message is very clear thought the whole Quran, God does not change his mind between the old or new testament.
So it is not validation for a clear message, it is for Christians who are sincere, most been brought up to hate Islam, so there is no way for them to know the truth, and it is Allah’s mercy, left that door for them to investigate more, as they only believe in their book.

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I would one day like to see some proof of these claims of the scriptures being changed. I have yet to see any.
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Well then my friend you have been living in your little bubble world. I am not going to direct you to Muslim scholars, but historian and Christians scholars. There are many books and recorded documentary which are unbiased, talked about the history but do not worry I will support all my claims with evidences.

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Not only the fact that they were "supposedly altered".. But why do you think it was thought they should be altered? And by whom?.

By whom and why? We Muslims know why but I don’t think it will benefit you or even believe the reason, why not just show you instead.

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Don't forget that the scriptures we have today are the same as the scriptures we had during the time of your prophet Mohammed.
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Lol Do you know the history of your book??, have you read how it was collected, and what they put in or left out, and what they changed and altered, many times, until this day. Please do not insult our intelligence

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But this raises a conundrum for muslims I feel.. Because you have no way of knowing what is truth and what was allegedly changed..

But we do, what is right and what is wrong because we have the Furqan (the Qur'an itself as the decisive factor between the Good and the Evil), so for example we share similar names to the prophets but we will not take the accounts of the corrupted book. That God chose the worse of people to convey his message, according to the bible story. For example We share the same name for a prophet Lut peace upon him but we will not accept the incest story in the bible. So how do we know it is corrupted story? The Furqan tell us. And many more stories, if Muhammad peace be upon him was copying these stories he could at least get one exact story!! Not one, as your book now did great blasphemy against all our beloved prophets peace be upon them.

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You could of course say the Quran is your proof, but this would not be proof enough for anyone who doubted the authenticity of the Quran.

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The Quran is a proof for us muslims, and everyone, no one has challenged it is authenticity, no one!! if that was the case, we will not be here spending our time here refuting lies. The Quran is memorized by it is entirety from the time of the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him until this day.,

“In fact what we have is what is called Mutawatr transmission of the Quran. This concept of Mutawatr, which is essentially it is an idea or it means that so many different people have narrated a particular story or a particular thing from so many different directions it is impossible, it's inconceivable that these people could have gathered together to invent a falsehood. In other words, imagine you have a thousand people, these thousand people, each of them are teaching another thousand people & each of those thousand people teaching another hundred people. Can you imagine how many hundreds of thousands of people that constitutes? And is it possible that these people could have all gathered together & conspired together to invent something? No. It's not something that is possible. And therefore it is considered in terms of the oral transmission, when something is a Mutawatr, there are so many people that have narrated it, that it's impossible that they could have invented something. And this is the case with the Quran, the entire Quran, every verse of the Quran has come to us throughout the ages a continuous Mutawatr transmission of these verses of the Quran.”

Also a leading orientalist whose name is Kenneth Cragg, he said: "The Quran is perhaps the only book, religious or secular, that has been memorised completely by millions of people.This phenomenon of the Quranic recital means the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken line of living sequence of devotion.It can not therefore be handled as an antiquarian thing nor a historical document of the distant past. The fact of hifz (meaning the Quranic memorization) has made the Quran a present possession through all the laps of Muslim time & given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to bear authority & reference alone."

So as I said above no one can challenge the authenticity of the Quran, to this day, it remain a challenge.

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So you need independent proof, which is harder to find. You raised the points
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It is not hard, I can prove that you have corrupted books, historically, and by other mean other than the Quran.

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I am addressing them. Your overwhelming evidence is not much more than misunderstandings and misinterpretations. I doubt you have anything new. It would, I feel be a rather pointless exercise and one that has been no doubt addressed on numerous previous occasions...

Let’s cross that bridge when we reach it, shall we? Promise I will not bore you. I have not finished yet, so please no reply until I finish, I need to go out now.

[pandora]

Greetings Huria, now you have graciously given me leave to reply I will endeavour to do so. Although in truth you have not brought much to the table so to speak. :)

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It is not validation for our message, the message of Islam is very clear in the Quran, Allah made it very clear to us, no vague passages about who we should worship, or ambiguity this mean that or another, it is crystal clear,
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him. (Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)

The message is very clear thought the whole Quran, God does not change his mind between the old or new testament.
So it is not validation for a clear message, it is for Christians who are sincere, most been brought up to hate Islam, so there is no way for them to know the truth, and it is Allah’s mercy, left that door for them to investigate more, as they only believe in their book.

I did not say you seek to validate the Quran's message by the Bible. You do however use the Bible to validate Mohammed's credentials as a Prophet... You do this every time you make a claim that Mohammed was mentioned in either the Torah or the Gospels. This despite the fact you make claims of corruption against the very scriptures you erroneously use. Why it is important to you to find prophecies of Mohammed in the Bible is a point I do not understand.

There is no ambiguity or vagueness in the Bible, it's message is also as clear as crystal. I know of no Christians who have been brought up to hate Islam.. That is a strange claim to make but I expect you have good cause and evidence of such a claim.. Or why say such a thing!!! Of course the Bible does tell us we are to test the Prophets.. If anyone brings a different message then we are obliged to question that message.. God placed this obligation upon us. Truth is subjective to the individual, in matters of faith we rely on God to guide us.

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Well then my friend you have been living in your little bubble world. I am not going to direct you to Muslim scholars, but historian and Christians scholars. There are many books and recorded documentary which are unbiased, talked about the history but do not worry I will support all my claims with evidences.

There is no need to be rude or condescending.. I think it's counterproductive... If you have your evidence then bring it on, don't just talk about it. May I please request no You Tube videos. It is not a medium I wish to use. You mention Kenneth Cragg below, it would be good if you knew a but about the author, very often muslims just grab the first favourable quote that suits their purpose. A lot can be learnt from the author and aim of the article in question... Like their motives. No offence, and I have the utmost respect for the right Reverend Kenneth Cragg, first and foremost he was an Anglican priest. He has written many interesting articles on Islam, you should look some of them up.

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By whom and why? We Muslims know why but I don’t think it will benefit you or even believe the reason, why not just show you instead.

I look forward to seeing what you have on this matter, as long as it isn't an interminably boring You Tube clip.

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Lol Do you know the history of your book??, have you read how it was collected, and what they put in or left out, and what they changed and altered, many times, until this day. Please do not insult our intelligence

Yes I do... Do you? It's not my aim to insult anyone's intelligence.. I would be grateful if the same courtesy was shown to myself. If you feel unable to do so, then maybe we should end it here.

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But we do, what is right and what is wrong because we have the Furqan (the Qur'an itself as the decisive factor between the Good and the Evil), so for example we share similar names to the prophets but we will not take the accounts of the corrupted book. That God chose the worse of people to convey his message, according to the bible story. For example We share the same name for a prophet Lut peace upon him but we will not accept the incest story in the bible. So how do we know it is corrupted story? The Furqan tell us. And many more stories, if Muhammad peace be upon him was copying these stories he could at least get one exact story!! Not one, as your book now did great blasphemy against all our beloved prophets peace be upon them.

Lot was never a Bible Prophet, but simply a righteous man. As to why the Quran views the Prophets differently I don't know.. I do see by doing so the bigger picture is lost. But as I have the stories of the Biblical Prophets in what to me is their true colours, then how you view them is entirely your concern. You should be careful throwing such claims as blasphemy about, just because you do not see something the same way. The Bible Prophets each and every one is held in high esteem by all Christians and Jews.

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The Quran is a proof for us muslims, and everyone, no one has challenged it is authenticity, no one!! if that was the case, we will not be here spending our time here refuting lies. The Quran is memorized by it is entirety from the time of the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him until this day.,

“In fact what we have is what is called Mutawatr transmission of the Quran. This concept of Mutawatr, which is essentially it is an idea or it means that so many different people have narrated a particular story or a particular thing from so many different directions it is impossible, it's inconceivable that these people could have gathered together to invent a falsehood. In other words, imagine you have a thousand people, these thousand people, each of them are teaching another thousand people & each of those thousand people teaching another hundred people. Can you imagine how many hundreds of thousands of people that constitutes? And is it possible that these people could have all gathered together & conspired together to invent something? No. It's not something that is possible. And therefore it is considered in terms of the oral transmission, when something is a Mutawatr, there are so many people that have narrated it, that it's impossible that they could have invented something. And this is the case with the Quran, the entire Quran, every verse of the Quran has come to us throughout the ages a continuous Mutawatr transmission of these verses of the Quran.”

Also a leading orientalist whose name is Kenneth Cragg, he said: "The Quran is perhaps the only book, religious or secular, that has been memorised completely by millions of people.This phenomenon of the Quranic recital means the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken line of living sequence of devotion.It can not therefore be handled as an antiquarian thing nor a historical document of the distant past. The fact of hifz (meaning the Quranic memorization) has made the Quran a present possession through all the laps of Muslim time & given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to bear authority & reference alone."

So as I said above no one can challenge the authenticity of the Quran, to this day, it remain a challenge.

The authenticity of the Quran is not my concern.. I respect it as your Holy Book. I only wish you could be as respectful towards mine.. But I feel that is a big ask of a Muslim who has always been told the Bible is corrupted. Yet a lie can be authentic.. Can it not? The Bible has much historical and archeological proofs for its authenticity and has hundreds of thousands of manuscripts to call upon for verification... Indeed far more than the Quran has... Yet you would have us believe it is not an authentic Holy Book. Is that intellectually honest?

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It is not hard, I can prove that you have corrupted books, historically, and by other mean other than the Quran.

Again.. I look forward to reading what you have... As above.. No You Tube clips please. :)

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Let’s cross that bridge when we reach it, shall we? Promise I will not bore you. I have not finished yet, so please no reply until I finish, I need to go out now.

I may hold you to that promise...

Peace