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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?
Well, I am not talking about the(sacrifice) of Jesus, because Jesus is not the one who made the action, but the one whom the action was made against. I am talking about the Pharisees? Aren't the Pharisees sinned when they intended to kill Jesus? That's what I mean, the one who makes an atonement is supposed to do it for God to forgive his sins, but in our case, the atonement (intending to kill Jesus) is a sin made by the Pharisees. I believe in general that we have the same God, but I am talking here about a specific Christian belief which I don't agree with, so I am using the word God of Christians because God of Muslims has nothing to do with this belief.

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Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?
Yes, Allah was called the Best of Planners, but if you looked at the context of this, you'll find that it talks about the conflict between believers and non believers and how God saves the believers. Your case is a different case, because it talks about how God forgives sins, God in Islam forgives sins without the need to do (the plan) which is believed by Christians, and actually
he is the one who put the rule of atonements and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.
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But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary.
Well, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 which was before crucifixion and he didn’t need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers.
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This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30).
Well, Jesus said before (In Jon as well):
Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
This was before crucifixion, Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.
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I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood.
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Again you missed my point, the problem is not in the atonement or in the type of the atonement, the problem is the one who makes the atonement ( the Pharisees).

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It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.
This has nothing to do with being just or not, if I insulted someone and he forgave me doesn't make him unjust.

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Touché friend.... :) I like that.
Doesn't make YOUR DISBELIEF true ;)