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Quote Originally Posted by M.Khaled View Post
[RIGHT]

I am concerned now with those who made the action itself, the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus, they were not looking for an atonement, they were actually sinning, so you are treating sin by a sin not by an atonement, which is a flaw in the salvation theory. Those who followed Jesus are not the point now whatever their action is, and of course everything is by God's will, and we are discussing whether this was really God's will or not, because in this case God of Christians who treats sin by another sin is not consistent with God of the Jews who treats sin by an atonement.
Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?


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Well, God needn't make a plan, as plans are more concerned with human beings since they may need to think and make tactics, God orders be it becomes.
Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?

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Of course it wasn't prophesied by Paul :)
No it was not. The need for blood atonement for the covering of sin before God was laid down in the Old Testament. He did not prophecy anything that was not common practice and belief from Abraham, Moses etc. The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come which was that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving ... No one took His life He gave His own life on our behalf. In Leviticus 17:11 this verse could probably be considered the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares ~ "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar, it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." In the Bible "sacrifice" is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offence committed. So we read Leviticus verse thus ~ God said, "I have given it to you (the creature’s life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me)." In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin. The consequences of sin being separation from God, given that God created man for His pleasure then it is natural to assume that God would wish us to be at some point back with Him, part of His divine love and glory. Should we therefore be surprised if God Himself gives us a way to achieve that... Knowing that we can never achieve righteousness by our own efforts.

Although the Israelites did not know of Jesus, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadowing the true, once for all time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that, without the blood, there is no forgiveness. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act ordained by God. So we could read the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 as ~ the blood ‘makes atonement’ at the cost of the life (i.e. the animal’s life) or 'makes atonement in the place of the life' (i.e. the sinner’s life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood). The Jews who wished for the death of Jesus still held to the need of blood atonement for sin but did not accept Jesus as the Messiah they were expecting God to send.


All Paul does in Hebrews 9:11-18 is confirm the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. The concept was always there and clearly understood. It's also clear that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ.



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Which is not consistent with the action of atonement itself, the action is made by the sinner not by the lamb, the sinner is the one who is accounted on his sacrifice, not the lamb is accounted on being sacrificed. God has the will to do everything, but God is consistent with His deeds, and as you said, Jesus is the obedient servant of God, you even make him like Judas, the Jews and the Romans, and at the same time, he is God?!
I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood. It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.

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This is what you are believing, and you disbelieving that does not make it true :)
Touché friend.... :) I like that.

peace to you