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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
you obviously have not read what Jesus had to say on the subject.
Well, the point here is not about what Jesus said, but what the Jews intended to do. The Jews didn't try to murder Jesus as an atonement for their sins, but because he was taking away their leadership, otherwise you should look at the Pharisees who tried to murder Jesus in a better way and not to look at Judas as a traitor who betrayed Jesus, but as a man who helped achieving the salvation plan you believe in. That's my point, it's about the intention, the Jews didn't intend to make atonement for their sins by trying to kill Jesus, so the event of crucifixion cannot be considered as an achievement of the plan of salvation. And as I said above, the point is not what Jesus intended but what the Jews intended, otherwise it should have been that Jesus kill himself to achieve the salvation plan. As for what Jesus intended and the verses you quoted, you can see my article: "Did Jesus really die for our sins?".