Friend, I assure you... You are not the cause of my being tired and frustrated. It is the difficulty I have compiling posts and the length of time it takes to post anything. Everything takes so long to load with this site, yet I do not have this problem with other websites. Also I guess, I get the impression that any information I provide is largely ignored, which means we forever circle each other repeating what has already been said. :) I agree this is not about winning or losing that doesn't bother me and is not my aim. I just seek clarity and hopefully to dispel misunderstandings about my belief as a Christian. It appears Muslims are fond of telling Christians what Christians belief but really it is more your interpretation of what you think we believe.. If that makes sense :) it does rather appear that I am banging my head against a brick wall in this respect and muslims are quite happy in viewing Christians with the labels they themselves have attached to us and there is no real interest in clarity.QuoteOriginally Posted by عثمان أحمد الشيخ
Now I can once again repeat myself by stating I.. As a Christian do worship the ONE True God, that God is YHWH, God of the BIBLE and of all the Prophets and Christ Jesus. I could ask you which God do you believe you worship... And is Allah the same God as YHWH? I sincerely hope He is, because my dear friend if you do not see we share the same ONE True God then truly... I cannot see we have anything to discuss.QuoteThe matter is more dangerous than that.It is the dogma .Who do you worship ? The only true God that Jesus himself worshipped and prostrated to him only? .The God of Jews and Muslims.The God of Nooh. Ibraham,Jacob,Ismael. Izak. Moses,Jesus and Muhammad (pbu them all)..Or the God of the Bible who is three persons in one , or one in three persons ( Trinity) that the Father is God but he is not the son or the Holy Spirit .The Son is God but he is not the father or the Holy Spirit .The Holy Spirit is God but he is not the father or the son But they are all one . How do triangulation equals monotheism?.Triangulation means three and monotheism means one. How can three = one or one = three ?
-- No one in Christianity even the Pope himself can explain (trinity)
I do not see that your inability to understand the concept of the trinity, or indeed the Popes inability to explain it.. Or indeed anyone's efforts to ensure God fits within the bounds of our human logic the better to understand Him... Is any kind of big problem that has much baring on mans ever seeking relationship with God. God exists eternally weather we believe or how we choose to interpret that belief, the world turns the same.. By Gods grace.
I find it odd you choose the Gospel of John to seek to prove Jesus was nothing more than a man, when the very nature of the Gospel of John is concerned with explaining the divinity of Jesus, through the words, deeds and teachings of Jesus Himself. It differs from the three synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke in this respect. If you took the time to read more of John you would see far from proving Jesus as a mere mortal man... It does in fact seek to prove the opposite. I attach a greater portion from John which when you see the short excerpts you used are seen in context they offer a different perspective,Quote--- Jesus himself (pbuh) worshipped the only God of Jews ,Ibraham ,Jacob and Muhammad (pbu them).Your book says that :
(John 8/40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
--- In these verses Jesus (pbuh) proclaimed a resounding high that he is a man that told Jews the truth.When Jews said "we have one God", he blamed them saying that they should have loved him because he came from that God as a prophet.In the third verse he said that his God (who is the same God of the Jews ).honoured him. Then Jesus worshipped the only true God of Nooh,Ibraham,Jacob,Mosses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all ).Why did Christians deviated on worshipping the only true God .The God of all messengers and prophets . They invented what is called "trinity)" that no nation had done before. Please read the debate and the dialogue beween Arius who beleived that Jesus is a man and he never been God and Athanasius who believed that Jesus equals the father in the Council of Nicea which was held in 19 July 325 where they made Jesus God for the first time.Jesus is innocent of that (peace be upon him)
Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Jesus’ Claims About Himself
48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
I quoted a link to the entire content of discussion on the council of Nicea, it was rather lengthy, I have no reason to go through it all again. The trinity was not "invented" at Nicea, the council was to discuss mainly the divinity of Christ Jesus. When you says things like ~ Christians deviated on worshipping the only true God ~ I have to say I find that an inaccurate assessment and also quite hurtful. However, I know you do say such out of malice and only say what you believe is true according to what you have been taught.
Peace and Gods blessings upon you.
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