Concept of salvation between Islam and Christianity

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25-04-2014, 05:40 PM
M.Khaled

Concept of salvation between Islam and Christianity

In Islam, it is neither work alone nor faith alone get man to Paradise. It’s both actually, Allah says in the Quran:
But as for those who believe and do good works, for them are the Gardens of Retreat – a welcome (in reward) for what they used to do.(Sura 32:19)
See, belief is mentioned before good works, because actually good works alone do nothing if they were without belief, and belief without good works is not a serious belief. So actually good works are an indication of belief and that’s why in Islam we are accounted on our good and bad deeds, where bad deeds negate good deeds and the rank of every man in Paradise is dependent on his score of good and bad deeds, so actually good and bad deeds distinguish between believers in Paradise rather than meaning that man shall enter Paradise because of his deeds:
47. And We shall set up balances of justice on the Day of Resurrection, then none will be dealt with unjustly in anything. And if there be the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it. And Sufficient are We as Reckoners.(Sura 21:47)
Associate this verse with this hadith:
Jabir reported that the Prophet of Islam said: “No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell – not even me, without the grace of God.”
God promised us that if we believed and obeyed Him, we shall go to Paradise:
9. Allah has promised those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah – Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise). (Sura 5)
Now concerning sins, what if a man is a sinner? If he repented, God shall forgive him:
110. And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allah’s Forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Sura 4)
If the sin was against God,then God has the right to forgive him, if the sin was against someone else as murder or insult for example, God won’t forgive it unless the one whom was sinned against forgives the sinner, otherwise, he shall take from his good deeds, if the sinner has no good deeds, he will receive the sins of the one whom he sinned against.
What if the sinner didn’t repent and doesn’t have good works that outweigh these sins?
116. Verily! Allah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners in worship with Him, but He forgives whom he pleases sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, has indeed strayed far away. (Sura 4)
The only sin that shall let someone be eternally in Hell is Shirk which is associating partners with Allah and not believing Islam is the right religion. Other sins are either forgiven by God’s mercy or by going to Hell for some time till they are cleaned from the sins and enter Heaven afterwards.
So if they are Muslims even if they are sinners, they shall enter Paradise, but after being cleansed of their sins in Hell.
So simply salvation in Islam is first through faith, so that actually all Muslims shall go to Paradise, based on their deeds, they shall distinguish, some will be in the higher ranks of Heaven, some will be in lower ranks, some shall go to Hell first till he is cleansed out of his sins, then he shall go to Paradise. Deeds doesn’t mean that man can fulfill God’s blessings by his good deeds, but they are a sign of loyalty to God as long as they are associated with real faith, so that he gains God’s mercy that shall let him go to Paradise. But good deeds without faith shall not be accepted by God:
27. And (O Muhammad ) recite to them (the Jews) the story of the two sons of Adam [Habil (Abel) and Qabil (Cain)] in truth; when each offered a sacrifice (to Allah), it was accepted from the one but not from the other. The latter said to the former: “I will surely kill you. ” The former said: “Verily, Allah accepts only from the pious”
When I ask Christians, what is the need that God becomes a man and dies for our sins? The answer I always receive is: because God is just, He made an atonement for people to repent in the OT so forgiving people’s sins without an atonement is against His justice.
God has the right to forgive those who sinned against him as I have the right forgive anyone who insulted me, that has nothing with me being just or not, but actually people consider this as something good I do, so it has nothing to do with God’s justice, but it actually poses a couple of questions.
Christians cite this point of Jesus’ death with the atonements in the OT. According to Christian belief, who put the rule that there must be an atonement for blood so that the sins are forgiven, who put this rule? Isn’t He God? So how can this be a sacrifice? What Jesus did is not a sacrifice, but he just gave a solution to the problem God of Christianity caused? He is the one who put the rule and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.
The second thing, what I know is that people are accounted for their intention, if you do something and this deed gives consequences other than who you intended it to be, then you are actually accounted for your intention not for the consequences, for example if I robbed a guy walking in the street and gave what I stole as a present to a friend of mine, then I discovered that the guy I robbed actually stole this stuff from my friend, am I a thief or a noble guy who wanted to help my friend? For sure a thief, as my intention was just to rob a guy and I didn’t know the other part of the story. That’s exactly what the death of Jesus was about, it wasn’t intended by the Jews to make a sacrifice or atonement so that Jesus takes away their sins, they were just looking to him as someone who shall destroy their leadership and positions and they wanted to get rid of him. So the whole action can be accounted as an atonement, but as murder crime, and this has nothing with what Jesus himself intended, because he is not the one who implemented the action, otherwise he would kill himself.
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/concept-o...-christianity/
25-04-2014, 11:42 PM
فداء الرسول

اقتباس:

The second thing, what I know is that people are accounted for their intention, if you do something and this deed gives consequences other than who you intended it to be, then you are actually accounted for your intention not for the consequences, for example if I robbed a guy walking in the street and gave what I stole as a present to a friend of mine, then I discovered that the guy I robbed actually stole this stuff from my friend, am I a thief or a noble guy who wanted to help my friend? For sure a thief, as my intention was just to rob a guy and I didn’t know the other part of the story.

An excellent example

Allah bless you
26-04-2014, 01:18 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

That’s exactly what the death of Jesus was about, it wasn’t intended by the Jews to make a sacrifice or atonement so that Jesus takes away their sins, they were just looking to him as someone who shall destroy their leadership and positions and they wanted to get rid of him. So the whole action can be accounted as an atonement, but as murder crime, and this has nothing with what Jesus himself intended, because he is not the one who implemented the action, otherwise he would kill himself.

you obviously have not read what Jesus had to say on the subject.

Mark 10:32-34
Taking the twelve disciples aside, Jesus once more began to describe everything that was about to happen to him in Jerusalem. "When we get to Jerusalem," he told them, "the Son of Man will be betrayed to the leading priests and the teachers of religious law. They will sentence him to die and hand him over to the Romans. They will mock him, spit on him, beat him with their whips, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again."

Mark 10:43-45
Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. For even I, the Son of Man, came here not to be served but to serve others, and to give my life as a ransom for many."

Mark 14:22-25
As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God's blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "Take it, for this is my body." And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And he said to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the covenant between God and his people. I solemnly declare that I will not drink wine again until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God."

John 10:17-18
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Peace to you.
26-04-2014, 02:19 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

you obviously have not read what Jesus had to say on the subject.

Well, the point here is not about what Jesus said, but what the Jews intended to do. The Jews didn't try to murder Jesus as an atonement for their sins, but because he was taking away their leadership, otherwise you should look at the Pharisees who tried to murder Jesus in a better way and not to look at Judas as a traitor who betrayed Jesus, but as a man who helped achieving the salvation plan you believe in. That's my point, it's about the intention, the Jews didn't intend to make atonement for their sins by trying to kill Jesus, so the event of crucifixion cannot be considered as an achievement of the plan of salvation. And as I said above, the point is not what Jesus intended but what the Jews intended, otherwise it should have been that Jesus kill himself to achieve the salvation plan. As for what Jesus intended and the verses you quoted, you can see my article: "Did Jesus really die for our sins?".
27-04-2014, 12:14 AM
pandora

You are right about the Jews reasons to wish death upon Jesus, They did see Him as a threat. Yet do you see all Jews thought this way? What of the followers of Jesus... They too were Jews.. They followed Jesus because they believed what He taught. They did not wish their Lord to die, yet knew it was Gods will.

Judas was looked upon as a traitor at the time.. But it is naive to believe that this did not happen unless God willed it so. On that basis we do believe Judas was instrumental in Gods plan if not him then it would have been another. It was a necessity.. someone had to act the betrayer.

Blood atonement was ordained by God in the Old Testament, Jesus was the last blood atonement. You don't accept that, it makes no difference to those who believe it so. The crucifixion was prophesied centuries before Christ came into the world, it happened the way God ordained it to happen.

~ Phil 2:6-8 Christ Jesus, "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."~

God is the force behind all, nothing happens that is not according to His divine will.. So as Jesus was ever the obedient servant, likewise Judas, the Jews and the Romans who carried out the execution all did the will of God.. Difference being the only one who was conscious of the fact was Christ Jesus Himself.

I am am sure your article is very good and you have worked hard on it. It does not change the fact that Jesus did die for your sins.. You disbelieving that fact does not make it untrue. Without Jesus you are dead in your sins.

Peace to you.
27-04-2014, 10:19 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

You are right about the Jews reasons to wish death upon Jesus, They did see Him as a threat. Yet do you see all Jews thought this way? What of the followers of Jesus... They too were Jews.. They followed Jesus because they believed what He taught. They did not wish their Lord to die, yet knew it was Gods will.

I am concerned now with those who made the action itself, the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus, they were not looking for an atonement, they were actually sinning, so you are treating sin by a sin not by an atonement, which is a flaw in the salvation theory. Those who followed Jesus are not the point now whatever their action is, and of course everything is by God's will, and we are discussing whether this was really God's will or not, because in this case God of Christians who treats sin by another sin is not consistent with God of the Jews who treats sin by an atonement.

اقتباس:

Judas was looked upon as a traitor at the time.. But it is naive to believe that this did not happen unless God willed it so. On that basis we do believe Judas was instrumental in Gods plan if not him then it would have been another. It was a necessity.. someone had to act the betrayer.

اقتباس:

Well, God needn't make a plan, as plans are more concerned with human beings since they may need to think and make tactics, God orders be it becomes.

اقتباس:

Blood atonement was ordained by God in the Old Testament, Jesus was the last blood atonement. You don't accept that, it makes no difference to those who believe it so. The crucifixion was prophesied centuries before Christ came into the world, it happened the way God ordained it to happen.

~ Phil 2:6-8

Of course it wasn't prophesied by Paul :)

اقتباس:

God is the force behind all, nothing happens that is not according to His divine will.. So as Jesus was ever the obedient servant, likewise Judas, the Jews and the Romans who carried out the execution all did the will of God.. Difference being the only one who was conscious of the fact was Christ Jesus Himself.

Which is not consistent with the action of atonement itself, the action is made by the sinner not by the lamb, the sinner is the one who is accounted on his sacrifice, not the lamb is accounted on being sacrificed. God has the will to do everything, but God is consistent with His deeds, and as you said, Jesus is the obedient servant of God, you even make him like Judas, the Jews and the Romans, and at the same time, he is God?!

اقتباس:

I am am sure your article is very good and you have worked hard on it. It does not change the fact that Jesus did die for your sins.. You disbelieving that fact does not make it untrue. Without Jesus you are dead in your sins.

This is what you are believing, and you disbelieving that does not make it true :)
28-04-2014, 02:37 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

[RIGHT]

I am concerned now with those who made the action itself, the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus, they were not looking for an atonement, they were actually sinning, so you are treating sin by a sin not by an atonement, which is a flaw in the salvation theory. Those who followed Jesus are not the point now whatever their action is, and of course everything is by God's will, and we are discussing whether this was really God's will or not, because in this case God of Christians who treats sin by another sin is not consistent with God of the Jews who treats sin by an atonement.

Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?

اقتباس:

Well, God needn't make a plan, as plans are more concerned with human beings since they may need to think and make tactics, God orders be it becomes.

Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?

اقتباس:

Of course it wasn't prophesied by Paul :)

No it was not. The need for blood atonement for the covering of sin before God was laid down in the Old Testament. He did not prophecy anything that was not common practice and belief from Abraham, Moses etc. The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come which was that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving ... No one took His life He gave His own life on our behalf. In Leviticus 17:11 this verse could probably be considered the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares ~ "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar, it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." In the Bible "sacrifice" is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offence committed. So we read Leviticus verse thus ~ God said, "I have given it to you (the creature’s life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me)." In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin. The consequences of sin being separation from God, given that God created man for His pleasure then it is natural to assume that God would wish us to be at some point back with Him, part of His divine love and glory. Should we therefore be surprised if God Himself gives us a way to achieve that... Knowing that we can never achieve righteousness by our own efforts.

Although the Israelites did not know of Jesus, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadowing the true, once for all time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that, without the blood, there is no forgiveness. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act ordained by God. So we could read the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 as ~ the blood ‘makes atonement’ at the cost of the life (i.e. the animal’s life) or 'makes atonement in the place of the life' (i.e. the sinner’s life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood). The Jews who wished for the death of Jesus still held to the need of blood atonement for sin but did not accept Jesus as the Messiah they were expecting God to send.

All Paul does in Hebrews 9:11-18 is confirm the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. The concept was always there and clearly understood. It's also clear that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ.

اقتباس:

Which is not consistent with the action of atonement itself, the action is made by the sinner not by the lamb, the sinner is the one who is accounted on his sacrifice, not the lamb is accounted on being sacrificed. God has the will to do everything, but God is consistent with His deeds, and as you said, Jesus is the obedient servant of God, you even make him like Judas, the Jews and the Romans, and at the same time, he is God?!

I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood. It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.

اقتباس:

This is what you are believing, and you disbelieving that does not make it true :)

Touché friend.... :) I like that.

peace to you
29-04-2014, 08:53 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?

Well, I am not talking about the(sacrifice) of Jesus, because Jesus is not the one who made the action, but the one whom the action was made against. I am talking about the Pharisees? Aren't the Pharisees sinned when they intended to kill Jesus? That's what I mean, the one who makes an atonement is supposed to do it for God to forgive his sins, but in our case, the atonement (intending to kill Jesus) is a sin made by the Pharisees. I believe in general that we have the same God, but I am talking here about a specific Christian belief which I don't agree with, so I am using the word God of Christians because God of Muslims has nothing to do with this belief.

اقتباس:

Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?

Yes, Allah was called the Best of Planners, but if you looked at the context of this, you'll find that it talks about the conflict between believers and non believers and how God saves the believers. Your case is a different case, because it talks about how God forgives sins, God in Islam forgives sins without the need to do (the plan) which is believed by Christians, and actually
he is the one who put the rule of atonements and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.

اقتباس:

But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary.

Well, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 which was before crucifixion and he didn’t need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers.

اقتباس:

This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Well, Jesus said before (In Jon as well):
Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
This was before crucifixion, Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.

اقتباس:

I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood.

اقتباس:

Again you missed my point, the problem is not in the atonement or in the type of the atonement, the problem is the one who makes the atonement ( the Pharisees).

اقتباس:

It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.

This has nothing to do with being just or not, if I insulted someone and he forgave me doesn't make him unjust.

اقتباس:

Touché friend.... :) I like that.

Doesn't make YOUR DISBELIEF true ;)
30-04-2014, 02:23 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

Well, I am not talking about the(sacrifice) of Jesus, because Jesus is not the one who made the action, but the one whom the action was made against. I am talking about the Pharisees? Aren't the Pharisees sinned when they intended to kill Jesus? That's what I mean, the one who makes an atonement is supposed to do it for God to forgive his sins, but in our case, the atonement (intending to kill Jesus) is a sin made by the Pharisees. I believe in general that we have the same God, but I am talking here about a specific Christian belief which I don't agree with, so I am using the word God of Christians because God of Muslims has nothing to do with this belief.

I'm sure the fault is mine, but I am not sure of the point you are making here? Are you saying the Pharisees are the sinners because of their actions in calling for the death of Jesus? On that basis they should be offering atonement for their sin? I fail to see what that has to do the Jesus' sacrifice as the lamb of God for all mankind. Do you believe then that Jesus went to His death unknowing and unwillingly? Yet... The scriptures do not agree with this and Jesus said Himself why He was sent by the God the Father. At least I am pleased to hear you believe we share the same God. That you perceive this God differently is not an issue for me, as we each follow our respective scriptures which the same ONE God has revealed to us.

اقتباس:

Yes, Allah was called the Best of Planners, but if you looked at the context of this, you'll find that it talks about the conflict between believers and non believers and how God saves the believers. Your case is a different case, because it talks about how God forgives sins, God in Islam forgives sins without the need to do (the plan) which is believed by Christians, and actually
he is the one who put the rule of atonements and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.

Ahh.. Yes context.. This problem has come up before in as much it is important for me to see suras from the Quran in context yet not so important for you to apply the same rules of context to Bible verses. I guess we should concur that sin is seen differently in the Quran and Bible. If Islam claims to respect and follow the previous prophets then I don't know how you take such a view of sin. The prophets from Abraham onwards all believed God decreed for them a blood atonement for sin. Is it our place to question how Almighty God decides on how best to make us once again righteous after our fall from grace? Christians see the atoning death of the Christ as the greatest act of agape love that God has shown His creation... For through this we are granted eternal life.. The other option is to remain dead in our sins, which is no option at all worth consideration. Jesus said he is "The Way, the Truth and the Life,and no one gets to the Father except through Him" He did not lie.

اقتباس:

Well, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 which was before crucifixion and he didn’t need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers.

Strange you should say this. Note.. ~ Jesus forgave the adulterer ~ only God forgives sins, Christians know that Jesus forgave sins on the authority of God the Father. No other Prophet was given such authority. I am surprised you would use this as an example. I'm afraid I don't get the analogy between your abrogating stoning example and His atoning work on the cross.

اقتباس:

Well, Jesus said before (In Jon as well):
Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
[COLOR=#141412][FONT=Source Sans Pro][B][B]This was before crucifixion, Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.

this is a case of using scripture out of context.. In John 17:4 Jesus Prays to Be Glorified by God the Father.. The hour has come... Meaning soon Jesus' life on earth would be ended and thus His mission finished. Glorify your son...~ Jesus will return to God the Father as Jesus death has brought mankind to the Glory of God.. Authority over all people ~ all those who believe in the One God and Christ as their saviour are redeemed and have eternal life.. Jesus has brought glory to God by finishing the work God gave Him to do... Which was bringing souls to God. Finally.. Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him as He was glorified with God from before the world began.. As Gods eternal Word.

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

اقتباس:

Again you missed my point, the problem is not in the atonement or in the type of the atonement, the problem is the one who makes the atonement ( the Pharisees).

So do you accept that atonement was required? Your issue is more with who does the atoning. I guess as a Christian on this point I have to go with what my God (that is my view of OUR God ;) ) has decreed on the matter as per the Bible, both Old and New Testament. You could say God Himself has atoned for mankind's sin through His gracious divine love and His infinite mercy.
Salvation by substitution is in accord with a virtually universal practice. People consider it commendable for someone to die in defense of the innocent. Soldiers are honored for dying for their country. Parents are called compassionate when they die for their children. Would you sacrifice yourself for family or loved one if the circumstance demanded it? I would in a heartbeat.

اقتباس:

This has nothing to do with being just or not, if I insulted someone and he forgave me doesn't make him unjust.

if you were the victim of a crime and the judge showing mercy let the perpetrator off would you feel you had received justice? Or would you prefer that the perpetrator were punished in some way. To be just one has to be fair to all.. Stands to reason that any sin against God has to carry a penalty... A penalty has to be paid for by someone.

اقتباس:

Doesn't make YOUR DISBELIEF true ;)

lol... Nor your either ;)

Peace.
04-05-2014, 07:34 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

I'm sure the fault is mine, but I am not sure of the point you are making here? Are you saying the Pharisees are the sinners because of their actions in calling for the death of Jesus? On that basis they should be offering atonement for their sin? I fail to see what that has to do the Jesus' sacrifice as the lamb of God for all mankind. Do you believe then that Jesus went to His death unknowing and unwillingly? Yet... The scriptures do not agree with this and Jesus said Himself why He was sent by the God the Father. At least I am pleased to hear you believe we share the same God. That you perceive this God differently is not an issue for me, as we each follow our respective scriptures which the same ONE God has revealed to us.

Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.

اقتباس:

The prophets from Abraham onwards all believed God decreed for them a blood atonement for sin. Is it our place to question how Almighty God decides on how best to make us once again righteous after our fall from grace? Christians see the atoning death of the Christ as the greatest act of agape love that God has shown His creation... For through this we are granted eternal life.. The other option is to remain dead in our sins, which is no option at all worth consideration.

Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

اقتباس:

Jesus has brought glory to God by finishing the work God gave Him to do... Which was bringing souls to God. Finally.. Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him as He was glorified with God from before the world began.. As Gods eternal Word.

Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?

اقتباس:

So do you accept that atonement was required? Your issue is more with who does the atoning. I guess as a Christian on this point I have to go with what my God (that is my view of OUR God ;) ) has decreed on the matter as per the Bible, both Old and New Testament.

Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.

اقتباس:

if you were the victim of a crime and the judge showing mercy let the perpetrator off would you feel you had received justice? Or would you prefer that the perpetrator were punished in some way. To be just one has to be fair to all.. Stands to reason that any sin against God has to carry a penalty... A penalty has to be paid for by someone.

Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)
05-05-2014, 03:05 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.

Sorry, I'm still not getting the point you are making here.

اقتباس:

Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

You are taking this out of context, which I'm sure we can both agree understanding the context is important for each of us.
This verse you quote refers to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah. That is, the context of this verse is the Torah and not the Qur'an. If we want to understand the verses we need to understand some basics about the Torah.

When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this thus....

He must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Also....
For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. ~ Leviticus 17:11

This is why a lot of the Torah teaches about priests, sacrifices and the tabernacle/temple where the sacrifices were offered. The Torah teaches individual responsibility and forgiveness through a substitute sacrifice that bears our sin.

(The priests) will put the most holy offerings (there) - the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings - for the place is holy. ~ Ezekiel 42:13

the Torah was given to Moses from God, God made the laws and God decreed blood atonement for sin.. In the Old Testament this was a substitutionary sacrifice of animals, which was a temporary covering for sin.. All this was a precursor for the final atonement that of the Messiah.

اقتباس:

Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?

I think we have already covered that. Jesus did the fathers will in every thing He did during His lifetime on earth and even before that. To do anything else would be an impossibility. Yet, you wonder at His sadness at the prospect of His imminent cruel death. Jesus may have, as Christians believe.. The shared divine nature of the God the father but for sure in every other way He was a mortal man of flesh and bone and blood. As such it would, I should think be perfectly normal to experience such feelings of sorrow. Jesus always prayed to the God the Father, on this occasion that connection through prayer was needed greater than ever because Jesus would know that what He was to endure would for a short time separate Him from God.. And even for the shortest of time this must have been a hard thing to bear.

اقتباس:

Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.

Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)

Im sure I don't know what you mean by "manipulating certain events"I am just saying things as I see them and how it makes sense to me. I'm not expecting you to agree with me. lol... I'm just trying to explain... Badly it would seem ... My point of view.

Have a good day too.. :)

Peace.