Salam Aleikom

To start with: I am German, 47 years old and married with my wife from Morocco and of course she is moslem

I have been introduced to this forum by her to discuss about problems of converting to Islam

On the other hand I have honestly to confess that I do not have any problem because according to my opinion humans are humans independant from their religion whether christian or moslem or any other religion

Thus the question turns up: why converting to Islam

Humanity comes first

The human being comes first always be it by birth, by life or by death

noone has the right to judge about other people to stipulate any belief

As I have been brought up and educated in Germany or better Europe it goes without saying that my attitude to all aspects of life religion included are christian-shaped

Although grown up in christian surroundings I would not define myself as the typical Christian

My character is specially me and so my glance to religion is also

My mind and spirit are the result of having studied latin, old greek, philosophy, psychology added by my personal experiences in my life

I am a profound person, do not like to scratch the surface only

I consider myself a little intelectual, comprehensive, openminded, capable of discussing topics adversarial but with respect

Now it is up to you to judge about me, whether I am high brow, arrogant or anything else

But do me a favour, discuss openly by sticking to the point without calling me disregardful to religion or God

If someone here prefers to tease me as a blasphemer, you do not know me personnally

I have my values and qualities and maybe I am a more religious and responsable person than these persons that name themselves religious and submit to God

So do not forget, we all are Humans on one earth and respect and responsibility are mandatory from all of us towards all of us

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

You are Welcome Mr. German.Bergheim and I/m really happy to talk to you here at this forum and discuss each other in many issues that are related to religion and other aspects of life

So first of all I would like to welcome you here and I will have my first reply on your gentle letter

hope you will enjoy the discussion here

:98-:

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Why Religion??

As you know my friend German.Bergheim, God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death.
That's why, God has sent many prophets to teach the humans the right way to God.
People on earth , for sorry, have mislead the way to God because of their bad thoughts and because of disobeying God.

You know that there are many religions on earth. But Is all the religions on earth are true??
I will answer in my next reply

:p012:

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Why Islam??

As I told you my friend, there are many religions on earth. And these religions some of them are from God, and others are human made.
To explain more, we Muslims, believe that Judaism and Christianity are two religions from God, but for sorry, the followers of these two religions mislead the way to God.
You may ask me how!! I tell you that the Judaism changed god teachings and make God similar to humans by describing him doing things similar to humans like wrestling, eating ...etc
The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god ...

That's why God sent prophet Mohammad with the Holy Quran to tell people that the real God is the one who has the supreme power over everything, who is one with no partner and he is God who has no needs like humans.
And God told us that Christians and Jews have changed God's teachings and that's why they are wrong.

This is an introduction for our dialogue here, and I would like to hear your comment after this
I'm waiting your reply

U R welcome our guest in our forum and i hope brother Abu Ali Alfelistine answer ur questions


best wishes :98-:

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

I have been introduced to this forum by her to discuss about problems of converting to Islam

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welcome to the forum colleague ,

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

On the other hand I have honestly to confess that I do not have any problem because according to my opinion humans are humans independant from their religion whether christian or moslem or any other religion

Thus the question turns up: why converting to Islam

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simply because Islam means to surrender to Allah's will & guidance .

Would you tell us why not convert to Islam ? What makes Islam not your way of life?

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

noone has the right to judge about other people to stipulate any belief

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I really don't know what you mean by saying this , Islam doesn't force people to believe as Allah said to prophet Mohammed P.B.U.H. : "18|29|Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Now it is up to you to judge about me, whether I am high brow, arrogant or anything else

But do me a favour, discuss openly by sticking to the point without calling me disregardful to religion or God

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we don't wanna call you so, but I think that you were talking about our being humans ....so that it doesn't matter which faith one chooses to follow .

This is what I conclude.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

If someone here prefers to tease me as a blasphemer, you do not know me personnally

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I think that nobody here in this forum wants to tease you .
That's not an option.
& by the way we don't consider non - moslems villain , but we think that Good deeds of a non-moslem will be of no avail on Day of Judgement.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

I have my values and qualities and maybe I am a more religious and responsable person than these persons that name themselves religious and submit to God

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Well here you consider ethics more reliable than faith.


6|48|We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Whoso believeth and doeth right, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

2|177|It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

So do not forget, we all are Humans on one earth and respect and responsibility are mandatory from all of us towards all of us

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of course.

we're waiting to hear from you colleague

Yes, thank you for your welcome and enjoy our sharp, but fair, discussion
As I am not able to read Arab, I am not able to address you personnally but be assured, that I will answer your issues as best as I can

So now: medias in res, directly to the point:

I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

In our eyes religion is not neither an agenda neither a timetable
From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

And why this?

Yes, because it is true, religion is human-made This does not imply anything good or bad
The creation of the world is something phantastic, nobody is able to understand that

So religion is a measure to make it understandable, the creation of the world, the nature as well as the comprehension of humans

My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows, so religion is a good measure to understand, to comprehend and also to cope with the fascination of creation

You wrote [COLOR="Lime"]God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death[/COLOR

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong
Furthermore you write: and he is God who has no needs like humansExactly, so God does not need us

More-over you write: The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god
This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität
And on my behalf I do not worship, I believe or you can say I verify my responsibility in my daily life and I am the only one to be responsible

As I said in the beginning Christianity is neither an agenda, neither a timetable and this is the evident difference between Christianity and Islam
Christianity does not want followers on its behalf, Christianity demands responsibility, maturity
For some people this is a great problem They prefer having rules how to behave, but Christianity from the protestant point of view needs people to be mature, to assess from their own
Unfortunately humans are egoistic and selfish, so we have always problems in policy, in economy, ecology, sociology, paedagogy and so on and so on until we come to religion, there we come to different opinions, believes also, so are humans

One last question in the end?

Are Muslems better humans than Christians
Are Christians better humans than Muslems
Are Jewish better humans thanChristians or Muslems

No, not at all,

humans are equal all over the world
There is no human preferred or discriminated, we all are human

First of all, you are welcome in our forum

I hope you enjoy your discussion with us

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

You wrote God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong

---

So why did God create human according to Christianity?

_____________

Note: for proper quoting

first: copy the text you need to quote --> then highlight it
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In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Thank you my friend for your post and I have some comments on it, hopping that you will read them with an open mind.

you say:

اقتباس:

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I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

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I will take this into consideration in our discussions.

اقتباس:

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From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

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You are right.

اقتباس:

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My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

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Yes, we are humans. God has created everything for the benefit of the human beings.

اقتباس:

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Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows

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I disagree with you my friend. If we say that, then this means that God has created everything without knowing why he did this !!!! and this is not true for many reasons...

God has created the universe and everything in this planet for reasonable reasons ... God cannot do anything that may appear to us as a non-sense action or unreasonable...
we are created to worship God and to glorify him.... to thank him for his good things that he makes to us ... and i will explain this ...through my post

اقتباس:

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If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong

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Our worship to God doesn't mean that he needs us to worship him... and if we don't he will be weak ...
no ... our worship to God is to glorify him ... and ti show our admission in his power and to show our commitment towards his teachings ...

and let me ask you a question:
why Christians go to church in sunday?? and why Jesus himself was praying to God as mentioned in the Bible and here is the verse:
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12

does God needs Jesus pray?? of course not, but Jesus was doing this to obey God's teachings.
this is why we worship God

اقتباس:

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This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität

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the trinity in Christianity means that you worship three Gods not one... and by the way, the word (trinity) never mentioned in the Bible... and if we read the Bible we will find out that these three gods are separate from each other ... so you don't actually believe in one God

اقتباس:

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humans are equal all over the world

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Islam doesn't say that people who believe in Christianity or other religions are not human... but we must know that our right believe in God determines our humanity...
Throughout the history, people wear treated according to thier race and their color...
you see what America is doing in the world ... so do all the human are treated the same from Christians??
No, ...
Being a Muslim doesn't mean you are not a human anymore ... but believe me you will not feel yourself a human until you follow Islam ... because it is the only religion on earth who belive in one God ... who respect the others and treat them the

same ...

I am wating your comment

If our brother Abu Ali allowed me WE DON'T WORSHIP GOT CUZ HE NEEDS US , WE WORSHIP HIM CUZ WE NEED HIM,WE NEED HIS GIFTS ,WE NEED HIS MERCY WE NEED HIS SATISFACTION


according to the Bible the un-Christian or the un-Jewish is just an animal

Where is the human rights in Cursed is he who does the work of the LORD deceitfully
And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.
JEREMIAH 48:10 (NEW KING JAMES VERSION)

16 Samaria is held guilty,[i]
For she has rebelled against her God.
They shall fall by the sword,
Their infants shall be dashed in pieces,
And their women with child ripped open.
HOSEA 13:16 (NEW KING JAMES VERSION)

This is just a simple gesture on human rights in the Bible applied by America in Iraq and Afghanistan

best wishes:98-:

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Yes, thank you for your welcome and enjoy our sharp, but fair, discussion

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I hope it won't be too sharp;

Allah said:29|46|And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

So now: medias in res, directly to the point:

I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

In our eyes religion is not neither an agenda neither a timetable
From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

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what's wrong with agendas & timetables ?

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

And why this?


Yes, because it is true, religion is human-made This does not imply anything good or bad

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In christianity we notice this especially when we read a book like "misquoting Jesus " for Bart Ehrman " .


but the concept of religion is totally different in Islam .

In Arabic language religion (deen) means authority , faith, judgement ,submission ,recompense.

Allah said:3|19|Lo! religion with Allah (is) The Surrender (to His will and guidance).

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

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Allah said :49|13|O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows, so religion is a good measure to understand, to comprehend and also to cope with the fascination of creation

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I agree with you .

Allah said :51|56|I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

Allah said :23|115|Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us?

Allah said:6|165|He it is who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo! Thy Lord is swift in prosecution, and lo! He is Forgiving, Merciful.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

You wrote God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong
Furthermore you write: and he is God who has no needs like humansExactly, so God does not need us

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I agree with you that Allah Almighty doesn't need us at all & that was stated in the Quran :

29|6|And whosoever striveth, striveth only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether Independent of (His) creatures.

Hadith Qudsi :Narrated Abu-Dhar :The Prophet said that Allah said: O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice for Myself, so it is forbidden amongst you. So, do not be unjust to each other. O My slave! All of you are liable to go astray except the one whom I guide on the right path. So (always) seek guidance from Me, I will guide you. O My slave! All of you are hungry except the one whom I feed. So ask Me for food. I shall feed you. O My slave! All of you are naked except the one whom I make wear. So ask Me to make you wear and I shall make you wear. O My slave! You commit mistakes (sins) by day and night; and I forgive all the sins. So ask Me forgiveness, I shall forgive you (your sins). O My slaves! You will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O My slaves! Were the first of you and the last of you, the human being of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one of you, that would not increase My Kingdom anything. O My slaves! Were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one of you, that would not decrease My kingdom anything. O My slaves! Were the first of you, the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in any place and make a request to Me and I have to give every one what he requested, that would not decrease what I have anything more than a needle decreases the sea if it is put into it. O My slaves! Rather it is but your deeds which I will reckon for you, and then recompense for. So let, who finds good, praise Allah and let, who finds other than that, blame no one but himself.

(This Hadith is sound and related by Muslim)

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

More-over you write: The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god
This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität

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why don't you just say that you believe in one God ?

there's nothing mentioned in TNK about the trinity .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

And on my behalf I do not worship, I believe or you can say I verify my responsibility in my daily life and I am the only one to be responsible

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I can understand why you don't worship for Jesus as he never claimed being someone to be worshipped .

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and himonly shalt thou serve.

I won't comment on that verse .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

As I said in the beginning Christianity is neither an agenda, neither a timetable and this is the evident difference between Christianity and Islam

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I disagree with you , we don't believe in "deity of Jesus " nor the" original sin" neither "the crucifiction & redemption " & lots of other differences .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Christianity does not want followers on its behalf, Christianity demands responsibility, maturity

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if christianity doesn't want followers , why sending missionaries all over the world ?

even atheists need to be responsible &mature to go on in this life . Everyone needs to be responsible & mature .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

For some people this is a great problem They prefer having rules how to behave, but Christianity from the protestant point of view needs people to be mature, to assess from their own

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To follow rules doesn't mean that one can't or doesn't assess oneself .

But the question is : Are these rules Divine ?

if yes : one should follow .

if not :one shouldn't .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Unfortunately humans are egoistic and selfish, so we have always problems in policy, in economy, ecology, sociology, paedagogy and so on and so on until we come to religion, there we come to different opinions, believes also, so are humans

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But that doesn't mean that everyone is right .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

One last question in the end?

Are Muslems better humans than Christians
Are Christians better humans than Muslems
Are Jewish better humans thanChristians or Muslems

No, not at all,

humans are equal all over the world
There is no human preferred or discriminated, we all are human

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yes & that's what makes every mentally healthy adult responsible for his acts & choices in life .

And peace will be for him who followeth right guidance.

you are so welcome
your problem is you treate relegions as an accessories. but islam take relegion as the important thing in the humain life. God said that those who beleive that jesus is the God are infidels.
the prophet muhammed said *any christian who hear about me and he didn't beleive in me will not entre the paradise*
so you should shose in this life so you can save'it in the other life .the truth is very very clear . you just have to search and use you head .

Thank you for your numerous comments and statements
Unfortunately I cannot answer to every one, because it would take too much time Moreover I cannot answer only in one sentence

First of all In Christianity there are not three Gods

There is the only God, figured as the Father, then there is his Son Jesus and then there is the Spirit

You are open to define what this means, spirit can be characterized as the message of humanity, being in all of us, preferably filled with ethical comprehension and recognition


Second of all, I am a Christian (evangelischer Protestant) Our belief is open-minded and not narrow-minded to the Bible only, we are not bond to the Bible, because in our belief the Bible is not given nor written by God, but human-made

This implies that the Bible is a book as a pattern of thinking, it suggests you advice, it suggests you proposals
According to our moral, ethical view, our education, our knowledge we are free to think what we want, but we are responsible towards ourselves as well as towards other people

Now to the central question, someone of you has put

Why are humans created according to Christianity?

Yes, this is a very complex question and as complex is the answer

The answer depends on your approach

A theologian would answer that humankind is created to exist and produce on earth associated with the problems that normally arise between humans and also acknowledging that there is a vis major, mostly called God

A scientist would answer that humankind has the knowledge to exist on earth and to make use of all the science

A sociologist would answer that you have the responsibility for yourself and for the society of humans

There are more answers or you can choose to take a little or all of them, but in the end it is your own opinion.

Regarding religion I confirm that thinking about humankind, nature and science you cannot be ignorant and you have to put questions. But the answers vary, from your point of view and so do religions also

But you cannot claim that one answer is the only right one. Ok, you can pretend for your behalf to have found the one and only answer, but that is only your opinion


As long as it is your opinion I accept it and I do not have any problems with or against that, but I cannot accept that some people proclaim to have found the one and only right answer

my freind..fo you think that we dont know christianity ??
we know about christianity more than the pope..hhh .im kidding
but we know a lot..
we know that you worshiping the one God that he is holy trinity. but the question her is : did jesus said that ? in the gosples ?
is the holy trinty exist in the bible ? did any one of the prophets of the old tastment speak about the holy trinity ?
yes ot no ?
look man.. we dont shose relegion coz its nice , we shose relegion coz its the truth
in islam God said that people should think and use their minds to shose, not the heart .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Regarding religion I confirm that thinking about humankind, nature and science you cannot be ignorant and you have to put questions. But the answers vary, from your point of view and so do religions also

But you cannot claim that one answer is the only right one. Ok, you can pretend for your behalf to have found the one and only answer, but that is only your opinion


As long as it is your opinion I accept it and I do not have any problems with or against that, but I cannot accept that some people proclaim to have found the one and only right answer

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well ,


I know that you keep saying that you're an evangelic protestant but these words seem Agnostic to me .


I agree with you that people are different in so many things ,some of them are uncultured , illiterate or ignorant ,disabled, mentally -ill ......& so on

but in Islam we're talking about those who have the knowledge & keep ignoring Allah's commandements.



7|33|Say: My Lord forbiddeth only indecencies, such of them as are apparent and such as are within, and sin and wrongful oppression, and that ye associate with Allah that for which no warrant hath been revealed, and that ye tell concerning Allah that which ye know not.


39|9|Is he who payeth adoration in the watches of the night, prostrate and standing, bewaring of the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, (to be accounted equal with a disbeliever)? Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.



the Prophet (saws) said: "The pen is raised for three groups [of people]—(that is, they will not be responsible for their actions): the insane until they become sane, those who are sleeping until they awaken, and the young until they reach the age of puberty."

Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and at-Tirmidhi.




We believe that Allah sent his messengers all over the world

10|47|And for every nation there is a messenger. And when their messenger cometh (on the Day of Judgment) it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged.

17|15|Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. We never punish until We have sent a messenger


please let's focus on Islam & Christianity
we're not gonna discuss Buddhism here,
Islam denies that Jesus is son of God
We deny that the Holy Spirit is God..

اخوتي الكرام
هذا الضيف الكريم تفكيره مختلف.. هو يتعامل مع الدين و كأنه ليس هنلك اي دين حقيقي حسب كلامه هو . و يتعامل مع الدين و كأنه مكمل و ليس اساسيا و لا يسعى من خلاله لا جنة او لنار . الكثير من الناس في الغرب هكذا . هم يبحثون عن شيء يملأون به فراغهم الروحي و في نفس الوقت يمارسون شهواتهم .
سوف تجدون مشكلة كبيرة معه. لكن يجب ا\ن تركزوا فقط على المعاني الجميلة في الاسلام و الروحانيات الاسلامية . ركزوا ركزوا على الروحانيات...
.....
as i know muslim women should not be married to a non-muslim man.
a im right ??

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

I really regard what you're saying Mr. German ... but you must know that because people are following what the think is the right and do not follow God's orders or don't accept his guidance to hem they make mistakes and get far away from the right choices ....
In Islam God never force you to do something you don't want to .. but God tells you the right way to follow... if you don't accept it then you will bear the responsibility for your choice ...

I want to ask you a question... do you love your wife??? if so let suppose that she will choose to follow God's way ...can you force her not to do?
you can't ... because she has the right to worship one God and to do what God wants her to do ...

there are many differences between you and her ... she follows God but you follow your own mind ... that's why i advice you to think more and more ... all of us will be judged in the judgment day and those who deny God's path will be punished so think of the matter again and again ... Islam is the only way for your salvation ...

we can prove to you that Christianity is totally wrong ...and we have clear evidences that you can't deny ...

I really pray to God to help you and choose the right way

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
جزاكم الله خيراً إخواني وأخواتي على مجهوداتكم العظيمة
جعله الله في موازين أعمالكم
وهدى الله ضيفنا

Welcome German.Bergheim to our forum
Hoping that we can exchange information in a mild way included with the evidence

And we should be honest with ourselves and others when we discuss the religious issues

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

married with my wife from Morocco and of course she is Muslim

---

It's not allowed for a Muslim woman to get married to a non-Muslim man

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

according to my opinion

---

My decent addressee,
we don't discuss religions through personal points of view, but through evidence first, logic second ....

The sanity of people is different from one to another. i.e. you have your own way of thinking, and I have my own one . So, which one is correct?!!!!
a psycho thinks that he is the only rational person and all the others are mad!!!

So, please stick to evidence

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

according to my opinion humans are humans independant from their religion whether christian or Muslim or any other religion

---

Let the Bible speak:

Lu 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Lu 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Lu 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


Another verse
Lu 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Lu 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Lu 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Lu 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Lu 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

It means there are many specific things you have to do to live inherit eternal life!!!!
You are not free to do whatever you like, or you will not inherit eternal life!!!

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Thus the question turns up: why converting to Islam

---

Let's think together:
This life is as a game!!!
Every game has its own roles which you must follow and apply, otherwise, you will lose it !!!!
Then you learn from your mistakes and step by step you can enhance your performance and improve your standard

But the game life is just once to win or lose!!!
No other chance will be provided to you

That's why we have to be honest with ourselves first and with others second

So, what about if Islam is the true religion and you died and realized that it was a must to follow Islam, but you didn't!!!

As God said in the Holly Quran
3|85|And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

So, what is the fate waiting for you?!!!!
Simply, the hellfire!

Islam founded the whole life to people in both transactions and worshipping
Islam disciplines humans outwardly and inwardly, and draws the frame that must be followed, whether in your transaction for yourself, or your parents, or your spouse, or your children, and neighbors, and your enemies, your opponents and ... And protects peoples' rights and threatening all those who abuse the rights of others ...etc.

One more thing,
Have you seen any of Jesus' Miracle?
You just heard about them!!!
You have no Miracles left from him!!!
So, what you heared might be wrong as there is no clear direct evidence that there was a prophet called Jesus!!!

We have the best lasting Miracle ever which includes the evidence of Jesus!!!

I mean the Holy Quran which no body can bring to life a similar book or even one chapter Quran-alike

2|23|And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful.

Do not be in a hurry!!!
Do not say I have the evidence in the Bible, as my following question will be:
Which Bible?!!!
Which version?!!!
Which translation?!!!
Of which Christian sect?!!!
Before voting or after it?!!!

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Humanity comes first

---

Islam respects humanity, and draws the ideal picture of humanity
So, Religion and humanity complement each other, not oppose one another

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

noone has the right to judge about other people to stipulate any belief

---

If we have the criteria with evidence, we can judge easily

The Pope is catholic and as a evangelischer Protestant I do not accept him as my authority.


I told several times here that the “Spirit” is not a God

And I have never spoken about Buddhism


One crucial difference between Islam and Christianity is the approach and I can see, that this causes inconvenience.

In Christianity and I speak for my behalf the approach is human-oriented. We do not deny that there is a God, on the other hand there is no prove. But it is convenient to pretend there is a God and I can accept that. This following it depends on everybody’s personal attitude and opinion, what to think. Several people think of God as an absolute Creator, ok, why not and some people do admit doubts or they accept questions and are open to discuss essential questions.Christianity demands strong and responsible characters that can bear criticism, that can cope with it, that are aware of criticism and humans’ failure.

Christianity in my belief is human-made and therefore religion is for humankind, not the other way round that religion is for a God. Christianity does not dictate any opinion or belief. The Christianity puts humankind in centre of our handling and dealing with problems. Christianity demands responsibility and maturity. I know this is too squishy for many people, but this is the origin for discussion, for thinking. Discussion and thinking depends on the humans in their surroundings in their time. This is requested. Thus the discussion should always centre about the humans and their problems. Christianity does not want blind followers, Christianity needs mature people who admit doubts, questions and discussions, criticism and failure.

Following this you will seldom see me quoting from the Bible, because it is a pattern of how it could have been, but not how it must have been. In my eyes it is the same with the Koran. Many people argue with words or quotations of their Bible or Koran and I can accept it. But all you would quote mustnot be a prove, it can be or it is your belief.

See clearly the difference, elevating the Bible or the Koran as a book from God, that is your belief but there is not any proof in it nor for it. To read and understand the Bible or Koran is interpretation and that is quite fine. As said before there is no proof.

So if you want to call me an agnostic human, you might be right a little. But religion is not only believing in God religion in my eyes is about humans, about their life together and their problems and success. And this is the point where religion comes in the matter. To live together with other people, to arrange with other people, to accept them, to tolerate them, to respect them, to cope with them. For this rules are compulsory. I can accept that rules are religion-based, but not religion-centered.

Education and surroundigns associated with culture, mentality this creates your approach to religion and values. These conditions let you evaluate the values, wether they be religious or not, but they have to correspond with human rights and needs.

It is too private to mention it here in detail, but there were situations in my life when I behaved more a religious person than that persons, that call themselves Christians or Muslems.

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

First of all In Christianity there are not three Gods

There is the only God, figured as the Father, then there is his Son Jesus and then there is the Spirit

---

Well,
The Father +His Son + The Spirit = 1 not 3
All are one God!!!
Is Jesus the Father?
No!!!

Is Jesus the Spirit?
No!!!

Is the Spirit the Father?
No!!!

But the three are only one!!!

So, Is Jesus a part of God?
Is Father a part of God?
Is the Spirit a part of God?

No!!!

OK
The Father ≠ His Son ≠ The Spirit
They are different, right?
As each hypostasis has his own qualities and roles

If we say each hypostasis is God
The Father ≠ His Son ≠ The Spirit
So,
God ≠ God ≠ God ≠ 1


So, they are 3 Gods not one

.......................................

Now, we have something more exciting,
Why do you consider Jesus the God's son although all people are God's children?

Let the Bible Speak:
M't 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

So, the idea of trinity must be one of the following:
Father + Son + Chidren + Spirit
So it's fourfold !!!!
or
Father + Chidren + Spirit

..................................

Do you consider Jesus - the God who died according to your belief - a God?!!!

He is dead!!!
Do you worship a dead God?!!!

I know you would say" He is not dead. He
M't 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7: And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead

Great!!!
What did they see?!!!
They saw the Devil, Satan

Let the Bible Speak
M't 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
M't 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The prophcy of Christ bacame true, but you did listened to his order " believe it not" !!!

His followers were of little faith, they doubted him while he was alive, and didn't apply what he ordered after his death!!!!
He said "believe it not" but they believed!!!

M't 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

spirit can be characterized as the message of humanity, being in all of us, preferably filled with ethical comprehension and recognition

---

This means the spirit is in humans, right?
What a weak God?!!!!

If you had God in you, would you do a tiny mistake?!!!
Why do we hear day and night about thousands of rape, children abuse, adultry, stealing,...etc. in churches and in streets?!!!

Where is the spirit?!!!
Does spirit like that?!!!
Isn't it strong enough to stop people committing such crimes?!!!

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

we are not bond to the Bible, because in our belief the Bible is not given nor written by God, but human-made

This implies that the Bible is a book as a pattern of thinking, it suggests you advice, it suggests you proposals

---

Great to admit that the Bible is human-made..
That means, it's not Divine anymore!!!

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

According to our moral, ethical view, our education, our knowledge we are free to think what we want, but we are responsible towards ourselves as well as towards other people

---

Well, what are the criteria of the ideal way of thinking?!!!
Doesn't it differ from one to another?
A women-rapist thinks all women's bodies are his!!!
A bank robber thinks that all banks money is his!!!
A cruel father thinks his way is the best to bring up his children in a healthy way!!!

So, we need a sound accurate constitution to control peoples behaviours and deeds

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Why are humans created according to Christianity?
The answer depends on your approach

---

The answer must be from the Christian point of view included with evidence, not personal or points of view!!!!

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Regarding religion I confirm that thinking about humankind, nature and science you cannot be ignorant and you have to put questions. But the answers vary, from your point of view and so do religions also

---

Where is the answer?!!!
Please answer the question according to your own belief
Why wrer humans created?

best regards

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

So if you want to call me an agnostic human, you might be right a little.

---

If you are agnostic, what are the criteria of the ideal religion?
Once you find these criteria in a religion, you will convert to it?
Best regards

God is the ruller . not huamain . adulf hitler is a humain and he said that we should kill gays and jews and non white people to save huamnity . and a lot of people was beleive in his theory and still some people beleive in what hitler said
he is a humain . this is what humain brain & thinking give.
but God is wise than us and he is know us more than our selfs . he diside to us what is best for us ..

يا اخوان ارجو منكم ان لا تكلموه عن المسيحية . ارجو ان تركزوا على الاسلام . تكلموا عن الاسلام و اتركوا المسيحية جانبا فهو لا يؤمن بها ايمانا حقيقيا . و هذا الضيف ليس ارثودوكسيا و لا يؤمن بان الكتاب المقدس هو من عند الله و لا يؤمن بان المسيحية دين الاهي . هو يؤمن انه ليس هنلك اي دين الاهي .
لذلك تكلموا له عن الاسلام و عظمته و روعته و انه دين الاهي . و اتركوا المسيحية جانبا .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

The Pope is catholic and

I told several times here that the “Spirit” is not a God
And I have never spoken about Buddhism

---

I'm glad to hear about that ,
Thank you for correcting this misunderstanding but I have my excuse , I've never met christians that deny the deity of the spirit .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

One crucial difference between Islam and Christianity is the approach and I can see, that this causes inconvenience.

---

Of course Islam's approach is different but that's not all .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

In Christianity and I speak for my behalf the approach is human-oriented. We do not deny that there is a God, on the other hand there is no prove.

---

We can't see electricity that doesn't mean it doesn't exist !

We just feel it although we can't see it .

Did you read the Qoran ?

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

But it is convenient to pretend there is a God and I can accept that.

---

This following it depends on everybody’s personal attitude and opinion, what to think. Several people think of God as an absolute Creator, ok, why not and some people do admit doubts or they accept questions and are open to discuss essential questions.Christianity demands strong and responsible characters that can bear criticism, that can cope with it, that are aware of criticism and humans’ failure.
[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry to tell you that I really don't know what you're talking about .To think that God has a mother makes an atheist of a person .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Christianity in my belief is human-made and therefore religion is for humankind,not the other way round that religion is for a God. Christianity does not dictate any opinion or belief. The Christianity puts humankind in centre of our handling and dealing with problems. Christianity demands responsibility and maturity. I know this is too squishy for many people, but this is the origin for discussion, for thinking. Discussion and thinking depends on the humans in their surroundings in their time. This is requested. Thus the discussion should always centre about the humans and their problems. Christianity does not want blind followers, Christianity needs mature people who admit doubts, questions and discussions, criticism and failure.

---

I disagree with that .


It reminds me of this verse:

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Following this you will seldom see me quoting from the Bible, because it is a pattern of how it could have been, but not how it must have been. In my eyes it is the same with the Koran. Many people argue with words or quotations of their Bible or Koran and I can accept it. But all you would quote mustnot be a prove, it can be or it is your belief.

---

well , I don't know what's wrong in quoting from the Bible or the Qoran .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

See clearly the difference, elevating the Bible or the Koran as a book from God, that is your belief but there is not any proof in it nor for it. To read and understand the Bible or Koran is interpretation and that is quite fine. As said before there is no proof.

---

What makes you so sure that there's no proof?

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

So if you want to call me an agnostic human, you might be right a little.

---

I don't wanna call you agnostic , your words just sound agnostic to me .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

It is too private to mention it here in detail, but there were situations in my life when I behaved more a religious person than that persons, that call themselves Christians or Muslems.

---

I keep saying that moslims don't think that non-moslems are villain . We don't .But this is not the point.

The point is :why should one do the good deeds?

if you do it for the good of the humanity ,perhaps you'd be rewarded from the humanity

If you do it as a worship, God will reward you .

& everyone is free to choose .

Best regards

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

The Pope is catholic and

I told several times here that the “Spirit” is not a God
And I have never spoken about Buddhism

---

I'm glad to hear that ,
Thank you for correcting this misunderstanding but I have my excuse , I've never met christians that deny the deity of the spirit that you sometimes call "the holy ghost " .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

One crucial difference between Islam and Christianity is the approach and I can see, that this causes inconvenience.

---

Of course Islam's approach is different but that's not all .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

In Christianity and I speak for my behalf the approach is human-oriented. We do not deny that there is a God, on the other hand there is no prove.

---

We can't see electricity that doesn't mean it doesn't exist !

We just feel it although we can't see it .

Did you read the Qoran ?

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

But it is convenient to pretend there is a God and I can accept that.

---

I think this is not a relief .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

This following it depends on everybody’s personal attitude and opinion, what to think. Several people think of God as an absolute Creator, ok, why not and some people do admit doubts or they accept questions and are open to discuss essential questions.Christianity demands strong and responsible characters that can bear criticism, that can cope with it, that are aware of criticism and humans’ failure.

---

I'm sorry to tell you that I really don't know what you're talking about .To think that God has a mother makes an atheist of a person .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Christianity in my belief is human-made and therefore religion is for humankind,not the other way round that religion is for a God. Christianity does not dictate any opinion or belief. The Christianity puts humankind in centre of our handling and dealing with problems. Christianity demands responsibility and maturity. I know this is too squishy for many people, but this is the origin for discussion, for thinking. Discussion and thinking depends on the humans in their surroundings in their time. This is requested. Thus the discussion should always centre about the humans and their problems. Christianity does not want blind followers, Christianity needs mature people who admit doubts, questions and discussions, criticism and failure.

---

I disagree with that .


It reminds me of this verse:

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Following this you will seldom see me quoting from the Bible, because it is a pattern of how it could have been, but not how it must have been. In my eyes it is the same with the Koran. Many people argue with words or quotations of their Bible or Koran and I can accept it. But all you would quote mustnot be a prove, it can be or it is your belief.

---

well , I don't know what's wrong with quoting from the Bible or the Qoran .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

See clearly the difference, elevating the Bible or the Koran as a book from God, that is your belief but there is not any proof in it nor for it. To read and understand the Bible or Koran is interpretation and that is quite fine. As said before there is no proof.

---

&What makes you so sure that there's no proof?

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

So if you want to call me an agnostic human, you might be right a little.

---

I don't wanna call you agnostic , your words just sound agnostic to me .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

It is too private to mention it here in detail, but there were situations in my life when I behaved more a religious person than that persons, that call themselves Christians or Muslems.

---

I keep saying that moslims don't think that non-moslems are villain . We don't .But this is not the point.

The point is :why should one do the good deeds?

if you do it for the good of the humanity ,perhaps you'd be rewarded from the humanity

If you do it as a worship, God will reward you .

& everyone is free to choose .

Best regards

whats make you so sure that their is no prove that quran is the book of God ?
tell us please ??
and why you dont beleive that muhammed is a prophet of God ? God sent him as a prophet to us ?

where are you colleague ? we hope that you're doing fine,

so let us hear from you,

I had some few comments on your previous posts

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

Christianity demands strong and responsible characters that can bear criticism, that can cope with it, that are aware of criticism and humans’ failure.

---

I think it's mandatory for everyone (regardless of their faith ) to be responsible & to have a flexible way of thinking .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

I have been introduced to this forum by her to discuss about problems of converting to Islam

---

We are all ears ! Just tell us what do you think these "problems " are .

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة German.Bergheim

The Pope is catholic and as a evangelischer Protestant I do not accept him as my authority.


I told several times here that the “Spirit” is not a God

And I have never spoken about Buddhism


One crucial difference between Islam and Christianity is the approach and I can see, that this causes inconvenience.

In Christianity and I speak for my behalf the approach is human-oriented. We do not deny that there is a God, on the other hand there is no prove. But it is convenient to pretend there is a God and I can accept that. This following it depends on everybody’s personal attitude and opinion, what to think. Several people think of God as an absolute Creator, ok, why not and some people do admit doubts or they accept questions and are open to discuss essential questions.Christianity demands strong and responsible characters that can bear criticism, that can cope with it, that are aware of criticism and humans’ failure.

Christianity in my belief is human-made and therefore religion is for humankind, not the other way round that religion is for a God. Christianity does not dictate any opinion or belief. The Christianity puts humankind in centre of our handling and dealing with problems. Christianity demands responsibility and maturity. I know this is too squishy for many people, but this is the origin for discussion, for thinking. Discussion and thinking depends on the humans in their surroundings in their time. This is requested. Thus the discussion should always centre about the humans and their problems. Christianity does not want blind followers, Christianity needs mature people who admit doubts, questions and discussions, criticism and failure.

Following this you will seldom see me quoting from the Bible, because it is a pattern of how it could have been, but not how it must have been. In my eyes it is the same with the Koran. Many people argue with words or quotations of their Bible or Koran and I can accept it. But all you would quote mustnot be a prove, it can be or it is your belief.

See clearly the difference, elevating the Bible or the Koran as a book from God, that is your belief but there is not any proof in it nor for it. To read and understand the Bible or Koran is interpretation and that is quite fine. As said before there is no proof.

So if you want to call me an agnostic human, you might be right a little. But religion is not only believing in God religion in my eyes is about humans, about their life together and their problems and success. And this is the point where religion comes in the matter. To live together with other people, to arrange with other people, to accept them, to tolerate them, to respect them, to cope with them. For this rules are compulsory. I can accept that rules are religion-based, but not religion-centered.

Education and surroundigns associated with culture, mentality this creates your approach to religion and values. These conditions let you evaluate the values, wether they be religious or not, but they have to correspond with human rights and needs.

It is too private to mention it here in detail, but there were situations in my life when I behaved more a religious person than that persons, that call themselves Christians or Muslems.

---

Thank you colleague for your statements ,

It's been a week since your last visit to the forum ,

so I'll summarize your last post .

you admitted that there's no proof of god's existance in christianity.


you said that in christianity :" it is convenient to pretend there is a God



so all you gotta do, christians, is "just pretend "

I'm sorry for that,


you admitted that christianity
&bible are human made ...Thank you colleague .
............................................................ ...........................................
Christianity in its current form has nothing to do with God

But

still you refuse to leave christianity!

to accept Islam or any religion other than christianity ....


You said that moslems got no proof of Qoran's divinity.

You're not asking , you're not waiting for an answer from us or anyone ..


Thank you colleague for making everything clear .

Hello

I have read your words about religions

But I have a question


Did you read the Qur'an?

Qur'an component of a large book of 603 pages

I hope that you read

I brought you a video (SUR) of the Qur'an

I hope that you hear and read the translation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK_rH...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qou1X...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmH1z...eature=related


Thank you