Love for the Prophet is a Condition of Faith

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12-07-2014, 02:24 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Wait what ? I didn't understand you properly .

When was this sura revealed and what is the context?

اقتباس:

Look , it isn't a necessity that each and every single person knows how to present proof properly . We don't know how to prove ourselves that gravity has a force of 9.(something) but we are convinced with what we already saw of evidence presented by experts . That's the case for me at least .

As for our belief , it's a belief as you can tell . And when we're convinced with the evidence that Islam is right , we believe whatever it tells . And while you ask for proof of the people of the book altering the messages , I can simply ask you proof of the miracles Christ performed . So what's the point arguing about that ?

For me.. I do not need proof that needs to conform to mans puny logical understanding to understand God as God has revealed Himself to me in Christianity. I take it on faith that God is indeed great, Holy, Merciful, Just, Loving and every other attribute we apply to God in our attempt to understand Gods divine nature. I just accept that nothing is impossible with God. It's usually muslims demanding this logical evidence of Christianity.. Why is that? If many muslims don't require the same level of proof for the Quran... But take its truth on faith much as we do. ~~~~ hold the front page here.. I think that maybe some kind of agreement between us here and possible common ground tread!!! ;)

Yes, it is your belief and you accept without question what the Quran claims about Christianity and Judaism. Even when Christians point out that we do not and never have believed that God is one of three.. The Jews never claimed Ezra as the son of God.. If this sura is the word of Allah? Why does it not make it clear that this can only have referred to a small minority of Jews and Christians and not all? Now you may well say that scholars have interpreted the meaning that it is not meant to be taken literally.. But if it is taken as read then the meaning looks clear to me. It is tarring all Jews and Christians with the same brush and that leads misunderstandings.

The Jews call Ezra a son of God, and the Christians call the Christ a son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. May Allah destroy them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Quran 9:30)

اقتباس:

I see . Agreed .

Thank you.

اقتباس:

What misconceptions ? I'm just stating what Islam says about the people of the book . You ask "Why don't you believe in the Bible" ? And I say "Because I don't believe it's the original one" . I'm not saying "You shouldn't believe that this is the original Bible as a Christian" . It's a no brainer that you can't be a Christian and say such a thing ! Ironically , that's the same thing you've been trying to impose on us saying that Islam doesn't state the people of the book were entrusted with the message and they altered it .

Misconceptions as above for one.. I'm not trying to impose anything on you.. I was asking for proof of this claim, which really I don't think is unreasonable. Because from where I stand the only way the Quran can be true is if the Bible is false. In my heart I know the Bible is not false so as the ones making the accusations surely asking for proof from Muslim who make such claims is a legitimate request. Besides a few people possibly making changes is not the same as the whole message being changed. I already explained why this would be impossible to do. The Torah was not just one book kept in one place.. But copies of the same existed in every community.. If changes were made to one by some unscrupulous person then it would soon be detected.

اقتباس:

Not really , I have my problems with spelling :) .

Thank you for your understanding. Your spelling ability looks fine to me.

اقتباس:

You did explain and I did tell you we'll refrain from using that title when discussing with you and refer to him as Christ or any other name .

Thank you for your understanding, The Christ, Jesus or Messiah is acceptable... Or even Yeshua.

اقتباس:

Because I believe in the Quran being from Allah and is the final message . Why do I believe that ? I see evidence and proof for it ? What is that ? That would require a whole debate .

I feel this way about the Bible.. :)

اقتباس:

Apparently , I wasn't clear . They say that the original text itself , copy or not , was lost . Anyway , this is all based on my humble knowledge . I said I'll look further into it .

I've addressed this very point on another thread. To sum up in order for there to be a copy of something there has to be an original. If the copy was made from the original autograph then it could not have been lost at that time. Besides I find the notion that someone would be so careless with something they regarded as the divine message of God as to lose it somewhere a bit far fetched.

اقتباس:

For the written scripture to be in Arabic , not really , as for Jews and Christians speaking Arabic , fair enough . Still , it doesn't mean he took Islam from them .

Doesn't mean he didn't either.. I just said the possibility exists.

اقتباس:

Discussing the matter of quoting would require a separate time for itself . But I don't think it needs another thread . If you want , we can return to it later after clearing the rest up . As for the revelation , it is revealed to the prophet peace upon him through many methods :

1 - Visions .
2 - Jibreel arriving in the form of a man .
3 - In his real form .
4 - Allah talks to him directly from behind a veil .
5 - The revelation arrives like the ringing of the bell .

Now I see . We can discuss this here later .

اقتباس:

As you wish.

peace and Gods blessings to you.
12-07-2014, 04:23 AM
Burninglight

WHAT DOES LOVE FOR THE PROPHET MEAN IS A CONDITION OF FAITH MEAN?
12-07-2014, 02:07 PM
نصير الدين

اقتباس:

Okay, you have made it clear that the Quran states the torah is corrupted, but we don't base our salvation on what is considered to be a common source for both the Muslim and the Christian. If their are any distortions in the torah it affects the Jew first, then the Christian and the Muslim, but I don't believe there are distortions. I believe it is a fabrication to say so; therefore, this point is moot. There is nothing saying that the central message of the gospel is corrupted nor is there proof. So your point is moot.

False by default . It doesn't affect us if the people of the book altered the message . Islam states that these people were entrusted with their books and they failed at that and thus there's no room for you to say Allah - exalted he is - couldn't preserve the message . It happened with his knowledge .

And again , believing the Bible is corrupted differs from discussing the evidence for it .

اقتباس:

This means nothing. Haven't you heard of oral tradition?

Already addressed and it's still out of question .

اقتباس:

Besides some Muslims disagree about that

Their sayings is based on nothing but emotional opinions and ignorance of the numerous sources saying he was illiterate . Pointless .

اقتباس:

How have I slandered Islam?

3 seconds memory ?

اقتباس:

we don't have to say a Christian shahada; we don't have to mention any messengers with the one and only God like in the second part of the shahada. We will not commit that sin or shirk as you would call it.

اقتباس:

Islam doesn't have anything to offer Christianity; in fact, it appears to have imperfectly borrow from Christianity such truths as monotheism, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of Jesus and many other concepts that were written in the Bible first.

And all of that is unrelated to the subject . I told you and I tell you again , you have an issue of throwing whatever negative allegations you have about Islam . You'd probaby do that even if I was talking about quantom physics . That's no method of arguing . That's - and I already explained - red herring , a fallacy used to distract the other side with the biggest possible number of claims after claims .

اقتباس:

What have I said that was not truthful?

Every single line .

اقتباس:

Why do you have to mention your prophet with Allah to be a Muslim if you believe no one can be associated with Allah?

That's it ! What on Earth is wrong with you !? I told you before that you have until one of us dies to bring me ONE evidence of us associating partners with Allah . In what world is this line associating a partner ?! :

"I testify that there is no deity worth of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is his servant and messenger"

SERVANT AND MESSENGER ! Case closed .

اقتباس:

Anyone who says that their prophet is the best of creatures and must have a reverence that surpasses all of God's creation for them and must mention their love for him as an oracle of faith or sees him as the best of humans, this in my opinion is putting a man on a pedestal, and it is, IMHO, a form of man worship,

Well in my honest opinion , your "honest" opinion isn't worth a penny since it's based on ignorance , emotions , and personal preference . And for the record , "U mad" meant "U angry ?" and not "U insane ?" .

اقتباس:

When was this sura revealed and what is the context?

!!

Does it need a context ? It's just stating a fact . And the signs mentioning this are numerous that it became a given among us .

69:41 And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. 42 Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. 43 [It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, 45 We would have seized him by the right hand; 46 Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

اقتباس:

It's usually muslims demanding this logical evidence of Christianity.. Why is that?

It depends on what you mean by evidence . For example - not you , just an example - we wouldn't believe a message saying that a god exists and doesn't exist . What on Earth is that ?! There are basic self evident facts "Badiihyyat" like that 1+1=2 and that everything caused has a cause . That's one of the standards to know a true message from a false one . Also , keep in mind that aside from Muslims , others don't actually believe you had a true message revealed to you (Again , we believe the message was altered) . How will you convince them ? With love and faith ? That's the point . One needs a reason to believe that you have the right religion . Just stating "Jesus is the truth" won't cut it !

اقتباس:

If many muslims don't require the same level of proof for the Quran... But take its truth on faith much as we do

I doubt it . We are convinced with evidence , THEN we hold faith for anything this religion of evidence tells . In short , we are convinced with the fact that there can't be a partner with the creator of the universe , that he's all powerful , all knowledgeable , all wise , and so on . In addition , we're convinced with the fact that the prophet peace upon him was a true messenger . And if we keep going , we won't end this subject soon . The point is , we don't base our belief on blind faith . Are you implying that you do ? Because you said yourself that it is not .

اقتباس:

Yes, it is your belief and you accept without question what the Quran claims about Christianity and Judaism. Even when Christians point out that we do not and never have believed that God is one of three.. The Jews never claimed Ezra as the son of God.. If this sura is the word of Allah? Why does it not make it clear that this can only have referred to a small minority of Jews and Christians and not all?

Well , one can argue that all 3 are one is actually another way to say they are three different entities . And I wish I had an English link for the topic of Jews and Ezra but I believe there's a quote in English on this one :

http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t188538.html

And Quran doesn't state all the Jews said that or all Christians said it and thus there's no point in asking why it didn't mention it's a minority . Also , they are two signs one after another .

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. 73 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

And thus it calls anyone who says any of these disbelievers of Islam .

اقتباس:

Now you may well say that scholars have interpreted the meaning that it is not meant to be taken literally

No , it is literal . And there's still no issue as you honestly took it wrongly .

اقتباس:

I was asking for proof of this claim,

Now hang on a second , where did "faith" go all of a sudden ? Not that I don't believe there is proof for it .

Allah knows best .
13-07-2014, 12:31 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

Does it need a context ? It's just stating a fact . And the signs mentioning this are numerous that it became a given among us .

69:41 And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. 42 Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. 43 [It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, 45 We would have seized him by the right hand; 46 Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

without context how do you know why it was pronounced? Without context it becomes a meaningless statement.if you would rather not give the context then that's fine. We'll leave it here.

اقتباس:

It depends on what you mean by evidence . For example - not you , just an example - we wouldn't believe a message saying that a god exists and doesn't exist . What on Earth is that ?! There are basic self evident facts "Badiihyyat" like that 1+1=2 and that everything caused has a cause . That's one of the standards to know a true message from a false one . Also , keep in mind that aside from Muslims , others don't actually believe you had a true message revealed to you (Again , we believe the message was altered) . How will you convince them ? With love and faith ? That's the point . One needs a reason to believe that you have the right religion . Just stating "Jesus is the truth" won't cut it !

atheists exist without belief in a higher power that is God and see that science has the answers to all we are and all the world is. I'm not quite sure I get what you mean about knowing a true message from a false one... Obviously you don't see the truth in Jesus if you did you would follow Him. You only base your belief on His message being altered on what you have in the Quran. If I take the Bible as truth and I believe what Jesus said about Himself I can come to no other conclusion that it is not I that have the false message but yourselves. I don't see it's up to me to convince anyone. Ultimately it's not my call.. I can do as Jesus bids and spread His Gospel but like Jesus I cannot make a person see its truth.. Only the Spirt of God can do that. There is nothing more important to a Christian than their faith and love.. It's through our faith we are saved and through love that our salvation is assured. If you don't have that yourself then I am sorry for you.... And yes... Jesus is the Truth.. Not A truth but the only Truth.

اقتباس:

I doubt it . We are convinced with evidence , THEN we hold faith for anything this religion of evidence tells . In short , we are convinced with the fact that there can't be a partner with the creator of the universe , that he's all powerful , all knowledgeable , all wise , and so on . In addition , we're convinced with the fact that the prophet peace upon him was a true messenger . And if we keep going , we won't end this subject soon . The point is , we don't base our belief on blind faith . Are you implying that you do ? Because you said yourself that it is not .

What is your evidence? Because if what you say that there can't be a partner with the creator that's a very big assumption on your part.. I see the creator can do anything and everything and nothing is impossible with God. Just for the record.. Christians have never believed God has any need for partners either. No, my faith is not blind.. It is based on how God has chosen to reveal Himself to me through His Word... Jesus.

اقتباس:

Well , one can argue that all 3 are one is actually another way to say they are three different entities . And I wish I had an English link for the topic of Jews and Ezra but I believe there's a quote in English on this one :

نسف شبهة ( أين قالت اليهود عزير ابن الله؟)

And Quran doesn't state all the Jews said that or all Christians said it and thus there's no point in asking why it didn't mention it's a minority . Also , they are two signs one after another .

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. 73 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

And thus it calls anyone who says any of these disbelievers of Islam .

NO.. They are not three different entities.. This has never been Christian belief like God is somehow three gods.. That is blasphemy. If you really take this meaning from the Quran then it needs an explanation as to why Allah would not know that the Christians never did believe God was third of three!!!! The Bible and Jesus taught God is ONE Christians have always believed that. On this alone I would be a disbeliever in Islam because it appears to be refuting misconceptions aimed at people who never indeed held such misconceptions in the first place.

If it's not aimed at all Christians then pray who is it aimed at? The Arians? Nestorian's? Zoroastrian's? Or some other "Christian cults" of the time. It does rather seem that this label is attached to today's Christians by muslims even though we do not match the MO..!!

اقتباس:

Now hang on a second , where did "faith" go all of a sudden ? Not that I don't believe there is proof for it .

lol... My faith is where it's always been.. Built on rock. I know the corruption of the Bible muslims lay claim to amounts to nothing. The fact that there exists no real proof of any substance to produce only serves to reinforce my belief that God values His Word above all and there is no changing that. I don't need the proof because by faith tells me it means nothing when it comes to my spiritual connection with God. I see no value in saying one has the proof and then fail to produce it when asked. Anyways... I think I'm about ready to draw a line in the sand and move on from that one... :)

peace upon you.
13-07-2014, 03:23 PM
نصير الدين

اقتباس:

without context how do you know why it was pronounced? Without context it becomes a meaningless statement.if you would rather not give the context then that's fine. We'll leave it here.

Now let's suppose I said "Roses are red and violets are blue" , do I need a "context" so it's not a meaningless statement ?! The signs are stating that Quran is revealed to prophet Muhammad peace upon him from Allah . Simple as that . I don't see why you would complicate it .

اقتباس:

You only base your belief on His message being altered on what you have in the Quran.

And ? Isn't that "faith" ?

اقتباس:

If I take the Bible as truth and I believe what Jesus said about Himself I can come to no other conclusion that it is not I that have the false message but yourselves.

The point is : On what basis do you take the Bible - in its current state - as the truth ?

اقتباس:

If you don't have that yourself then I am sorry for you

We worship Allah on three basis :
1 - Love 2 - Hope of salvation 3 - Fear of his might .
All three are necessary .

اقتباس:

What is your evidence?

That would require a whole debate .

اقتباس:

No, my faith is not blind.. It is based on how God has chosen to reveal Himself to me through His Word... Jesus.

You haven't seen him yourself . So again , on what basis do you believe ?

اقتباس:

If it's not aimed at all Christians then pray who is it aimed at? The Arians? Nestorian's? Zoroastrian's? Or some other "Christian cults" of the time. It does rather seem that this label is attached to today's Christians by muslims even though we do not match the MO..!!

Anyone who says Allah is one of three , Christians or not , wither they admit it or not , go under this label . And yes , trinity exists in other than Christianity .

اقتباس:

The fact that there exists no real proof of any substance to produce only serves to reinforce my belief that God values His Word above all and there is no changing that.

To be frank , that's using double standards . You ask us proof of our belief - not that there isn't , but it's for another time - and at the same time you make the statement that faith needs no proof .

I believe I made myself clear thus far , so I leave any further explanation to someone else . It's getting busy for me . I might drop by if I see it's necessary .

Allah knows best .
13-07-2014, 03:45 PM
Burninglight

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Every single line .

This means you would always be right. Haven't you heard the saying when someone is always right something is wrong?

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

That's it ! What on Earth is wrong with you !? I told you before that you have until one of us dies to bring me ONE evidence of us associating partners with Allah . In what world is this line associating a partner ?! :

"I testify that there is no deity worth of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is his servant and messenger"

SERVANT AND MESSENGER ! Case closed .

What's wrong with me? You must me you. I never said Muslims believe that Islam's prophet was more than a slave messenger of Allah, but why can't one argue that although a slave, he is still associated with Allah in the sense you MUST mention him with Allah to be Muslim or as an oracle of your faith? I how this be wrong of me to say? Perhaps you don't know what the word "associate" means. It could mean someone associated with and that is exactly the way I mean it. Association although maybe not on equal levels, but association exists in my mind's eye. This is just me calling it the way I see it honestly and I am not mad or angry.

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Well in my honest opinion , your "honest" opinion isn't worth a penny since it's based on ignorance , emotions , and personal preference . And for the record , "U mad" meant "U angry ?" and not "U insane ?"

Oh, thanks for clarifying that , :), What makes you think that?

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Does it need a context ? It's just stating a fact . And the signs mentioning this are numerous that it became a given among us .

In this case context is needed. Or are you expecting one to believe without a reason?

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

69:41 And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. 42 Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. 43 [It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, 45 We would have seized him by the right hand; 46 Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

I remember reading about the prophet's death with poison, and that he said he felt as if his aorta had been cut. Are you familiar with that story? I read it and heard from a Muslim teacher. If you haven't I will try to find the source.

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

It depends on what you mean by evidence . For example - not you , just an example - we wouldn't believe a message saying that a god exists and doesn't exist . What on Earth is that ?! There are basic self evident facts "Badiihyyat" like that 1+1=2 and that everything caused has a cause . That's one of the standards to know a true message from a false one . Also , keep in mind that aside from Muslims , others don't actually believe you had a true message revealed to you (Again , we believe the message was altered) . How will you convince them ? With love and faith ? That's the point . One needs a reason to believe that you have the right religion . Just stating "Jesus is the truth" won't cut it !

It is not me saying Jesus is the truth. It is me believing He is, because He said it, and that cuts it for me. What doesn't cut it is saying these words of Jesus are corrupted simply because you don't want to believe them.

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

I doubt it . We are convinced with evidence , THEN we hold faith for anything this religion of evidence tells . In short , we are convinced with the fact that there can't be a partner with the creator of the universe , that he's all powerful , all knowledgeable , all wise , and so on . In addition , we're convinced with the fact that the prophet peace upon him was a true messenger . And if we keep going , we won't end this subject soon . The point is , we don't base our belief on blind faith . Are you implying that you do ? Because you said yourself that it is not .

You doubt much. Then why MUST you mention him with Allah in the second part of the shahada? Why does it state you must obey Allah and you MUST obey his messenger. I see a duo here. The Quran makes the distinction that you MUST obey Allah and obey His slave. Moreover, Muslims have a reverence for Islam's prophet that surpasses all of God's Creation. How can you say "case closed" when the case hadn't been fully opened yet?

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Well , one can argue that all 3 are one is actually another way to say they are three different entities . And I wish I had an English link for the topic of Jews and Ezra but I believe there's a quote in English on this one :

And Quran doesn't state all the Jews said that or all Christians said it and thus there's no point in asking why it didn't mention it's a minority .
5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. 73 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment

Allah knows best .

Allah knows what best? Allah shows that he believed that Christians or someone believed that he is "the third of three" Who believed that Allah was the third person of the trinity? Don't try to use semantics and say Allah meant a third as in 1/3, because that is not the context. What proves he is meaning the third person is the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" This obviously implies the son, mother and father triplet that has nothing to do with the tri unity of God. Finally, who says Jesus is Allah? Any intelligent honest person and even some children at the age of 6 or 9 can make an inference that Allah and his messenger believed that someone will be punished for believing in this strange triplet mentioned by him, but this begs the question: Who believed or believes these things Allah and his messenger spoke of regarding the three in question? This is reason for me to stand clear of Islam. My question is why doesn't this apparent discrepancy bother you or other Muslims?

Peace unto you
13-07-2014, 11:53 PM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Now let's suppose I said "Roses are red and violets are blue" , do I need a "context" so it's not a meaningless statement ?! The signs are stating that Quran is revealed to prophet Muhammad peace upon him from Allah . Simple as that . I don't see why you would complicate it .

I'm not complicating anything. I don't understand why you are being so sensitive about it.. Deflecting the point with Roses of red and blue???

اقتباس:

And ? Isn't that "faith" ?

Maybe so.. Is it blind faith if one ignores evidences to the contrary?

اقتباس:

The point is : On what basis do you take the Bible - in its current state - as the truth ?

on the basis of that still small voice God through His Spirit brings to me the understanding of His truth, His love, His mercy and His Word... Jesus. It's called relationship.

اقتباس:

We worship Allah on three basis :
1 - Love 2 - Hope of salvation 3 - Fear of his might .
All three are necessary .

I respect that as it is your belief.

اقتباس:

That would require a whole debate .

Let me know if and when you have the time. :)

اقتباس:

You haven't seen him yourself . So again , on what basis do you believe ?

It would be useless trying to explain to a non believer what relationship a Christian has with The Lord Jesus. Basically if I ask He answers.. A fellow Christian would know exactly.

اقتباس:

Anyone who says Allah is one of three , Christians or not , wither they admit it or not , go under this label . And yes , trinity exists in other than Christianity .

You would never find a Christian that would ever say God is one of three... Because God is one. So this can only be a misconception in the Quran. The trinity as found within Christianity is nothing like any other "trinity" in other religions. You can take that to the bank.. :)

اقتباس:

To be frank , that's using double standards . You ask us proof of our belief - not that there isn't , but it's for another time - and at the same time you make the statement that faith needs no proof .

lets be clear.. Faith itself does not require proof.. In fact I don't believe it is possible to prove or disprove faith with any kind of proof. That's not what I was asking.. Our respective "faith" is untouchable. The proof I asked for was the proof muslims claim to have about the Bible. I don't ask for proof of the Quran's accuracy because for many reasons I have rejected it for what it claims to be. What proof could you bring to change my mind?? I'm not sure you could. The Quran is truth for you but not for me.. You don't need to prove it to me. The Bible is truth to me but YOU say it is unreliable and is corrupt.. Am I being therefore unreasonable to ask to see proof of such a claim?? Obviously muslims seem to think I am.. Or are you prevaricating for the fact your proof is lacking..

اقتباس:

I believe I made myself clear thus far , so I leave any further explanation to someone else . It's getting busy for me . I might drop by if I see it's necessary .

Allah knows best .

اقتباس:

You have been clear on many points and I have enjoyed immensely dialogue with you. I thank you for your time. God willing we will have occasion to discuss topics in the future. I wish you well.

Peace and blessings from me to you.
14-07-2014, 03:45 AM
Burninglight

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

Now let's suppose I said "Roses are red and violets are blue" , do I need a "context" so it's not a meaningless statement ?! The signs are stating that Quran is revealed to prophet Muhammad peace upon him from Allah . Simple as that . I don't see why you would complicate it ..

If someone said that out of the blue without context, it wouldn't make sense. One would ask; "Why are you saying that?"

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين

We worship Allah on three basis :
1 - Love 2 - Hope of salvation 3 - Fear of his might .
All three are necessary .
You haven't seen him yourself . So again , on what basis do you believe ?
Anyone who says Allah is one of three , Christians or not , wither they admit it or not , go under this label . And yes , trinity exists in other than Christianity .

No where does the Bible say the God is one of three nor did we say that. We said God is one with no partners or associates. Jesus is His word incarnate, and God is the Holy Spirit from where all holiness comes. God cannot be described with stupid math formulas such as 1+1+1=3. No Christian is in violation of the triplet god described or implied by the Quran.

We worship God because He is worthy of worship, and He created us to worship Him.

Tell me since you mentioned part of your worship is based on love where is the Scripture you base that on from the Quran?

So are you telling us your worship is based on a type of trinity such as 1 - Love 2 - Hope of salvation 3 - Fear of his might ???

We have seen God through his word and His spirit bears witness with ours that we are His. No devil could snatch us our of His hand!

BTW, you didn't address my comments a couple of posts back.

Peace unto you,

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