Trinity and development of doctorine

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Trinity and development of doctorine

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Thread: Trinity and development of doctorine

  1. #51
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    Some Christians have posted over 500 times and still cannot post directly; so, if there is discrimination, you answer to God. Please show me the forum rules to back up what you say. If you cannot, I rest my case.
    I asked the admins and they told me that they explained the issue for you. The posts of all members are reviwed first in this section and the islamic section, whether they are muslims or christians. Why are you asking me about issues that the admins already explained to you ?
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  2. #52
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    Default Virgin birth

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    I totally agree with you that the virgin birth can't be a proof that Jesus Pbuh is God
    It doesn't disprove it either.
    It surely disproves it.
    I can't imaging that a man who is coming to the world through the genital organs of a woman is God. I really don't understand how can you believe this ?
    I can't imagine that a man who eats, drinks, defecates and urinates is God. Do you see that it's logic to believe that God was a man who used to defecate and urinate?
    I can't imagine that a man who has a sexual desire is God. I can't believe that a man who used - as all men- to have erections and wet dreams is God. How on earth can you believe this?
    God is great. Nothing is like him. Glory be to God.
    Moreover, as mentioned before this man used to worship God, and said that the Father is his God, and said that he doesn't know when is judgement day. Yet, you think he is God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    And then if I say that you are kidding, you will tell me that I am trying to be evasive. Ok, I won't say that you are kidding, but I'm really sorry to say that your claim here is ridiculous.
    You are claiming that the virgin birth is not a sign of the power of God because every birth shows the power of God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Surely, every birth shows the power of God, however the virgin birth specifically shows that God can break the physical and biological rules and can do whatever he wants to do. According to biology, man must have a father and a mother, God broke this rule and created Jesus from a female only, so this is a miracle that shows the power of God.
    No, I didn't say it doesn't show the power of God; I said it is not the reason for His virgin birth. If you believe this imperfectly borrowed story from the NT Bible was just to show the power of God, you missed the point of your eternal salvation.
    Well, this is what you think, but how can you prove this to me or anyone who is not a christian?
    You have no evidence.
    According to us the virgin birth is a sign of the power of God, it doesn't show that Jesus Pbuh is God or the son of God and it doesn't show that he was born without a sinful nature to die instead of us for our sins.

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    "David said surely I was sinful at birth.... in sin did my mother conceive me"
    I never said we inherit sin. I said we inherit a sinful nature. The sin we commit belongs to us not Adam. Jesus came to set us free from being slaves to sin otherwise there is no freedom. "Whom the son sets free is free indeed."
    Let's suppose that we inherit a sinful nature.
    Why didn't Jesus Pbuh inherit it from his mother?
    He could it inherit it from both his father and mother or from his mother only. Maybe, he has a father and a mother, yet he doesn't inherit the sinful nature.
    It seems that you think that sinful nature is a gene that is only inherited from the father.
    What is the relation between having no father and the inheritance of sinful nature?
    NOTHING, this is even not logic, but you see it logic just because this is what was told to you since you were a kid
    But if you speak to someone who is not a christian, he will see that what you say is not logic

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    As mentioned before several times, the concepts in John 1 are just plagarized from Philo, and you have completely neglected this point and didn't address it and you are just again speaking about John 1.
    You mean it was plagiarized like the virgin birth story was from the NT Bible? Just because Islam's messenger couldn't read and write doesn't mean he wasn't exposed to oral tradition regarding the gospel.
    Actually this ridiculous response, shows me how weak your faith is, you can't defend, you are not even trying to defend it because you don't know how to defend it, and you are just trying to prove that there is a similar plagarism in Islam just to convince yourself that plagarism is in both religions so Islam isn't better than Christianity !!!!
    You are just grasping on straws
    As mentioned before, the virgin birth is true, Luke knew about the virgin birth because he did effort to trace everything from the beginning as mentioned in the opening of his gospel, in the holy Quran God told us about the virgin birth of Jesus Pbuh as a sign of his power
    I don't see any problem at all in this
    If you want to keep claiming that this is plagarism, just keep claiming but it's just a very ridiculous claim that shows how weak your arguments to prove your religion are
    On the other hand, according to both the jews and christians Philo is a heretic, Philo didn't believe in Jesus although they lived in the same time, yet after the ascent of Jesus Pbuh, the author of the fourth gospel just copied what Philo said about the Logos and said that Jesus was the Logos !!!!!!!!!!!
    Can you explain this plagarism ?
    I challenge you to give me a logic explanation
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  3. #53
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    Default Salvation

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    As mentioned above, God doesn't have to neither kill his son nor make people kill his son to save us. God can simply forgive us without any work on the cross.
    What christians say is that Justice must be preseved, and there must be a punishment for the sin, but they are simply neglecting the other half of the fact, justice is to punish the one who sins, it's not to kill someone else or punish him. So I don't see that justice is preserved if Jesus dies for our sins, why should someone who has no sin die for sins of others?
    The Bible orders you to forgive others, so if you forgive someone without punishing him, do you think that this is not fair? If it's not fair why does your Bible order you to do it? Why doesn't the Bible order you to punish yourself to forgive others to preserve justice?
    SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUSTICE.
    So, you are going to tell God what justice is or is not. God sets the terms and if we want the gift of salvation, we must meet God on his terms not ours. God's ways are not our ways.
    So, according to what all people know, justice is to punish the one who did the mistake, it's not to kill yourself or your son because someone else did a sin.
    So, don't keep on telling us that the death of Jesus Pbuh on the cross was actually the only way to fulfill God's justice and to avoid punishing us
    Don't try to convince me that this is justice because there must be a punishment for a sin, you are deceiving me and deceiving yourself, justice is to punish the one who sinned not to punish someone else
    Tell me, it's really strange that God killed his son to forgive us, we don't understand why did God do this and we have no logic explanation for it, but this is what we have to believe in to be christians
    Actually Jesus Pbuh never said in your gospels that he will die on the cross in order to carry the punishment for the sins instead of us and this was the only way to preserve God's justice and mercy in the same time
    He never said this, I challenge to show me where did Jesus say this
    The logic explanation, that you won't like, is that these were explanations that were made later on by early christians like Paul, to make the people believe that Jesus Pbuh who was beleved by them to die on the cross is the Christ
    The jews believed that the christ will be a victorious king who will redeem them and make them the most powerful nation
    How could a man who died in vain on a cross be the Christ they are waiting for?
    So such explanations had to be made, that this death was the plan of God to preserve his justice without punishing us


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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Well, Burning light I didn't get a clear answer to my question
    If you kill someone or do very evil deeds, will you be punished by God for your sin and go to hell or you will just be forgiven and you won't be punished because according to your faith God made the jews and romans kill his son to forgive your sins ?
    If according to your faith, you will never be punished for any sins because the son of God has been killed, then surely your religion is not a true religion because it encourages people to commit sins.
    If according to your faith, you will go to hell if you kill someone or do very evil deeds, then there is no difference between christianity and islam and there was no reason for the death of Jesus on the cross according to the Bible.
    Kindly give me a clear answer to the question : Will you go to hell if you kill someone or not ?
    You are not understanding Christianity or the power of God. The soul that sins dies. It is written: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God the justice for sin is death. Because of God's perfect justice you must die for your sin. You cannot do good and be forgiven for your evil deeds. If a criminal murders someone in a robbery and then does good deeds afterward, does he get off the hook for his murder? The law says he must be punished. He cannot be forgiven as if he had never committed the evil deed, and he must die.

    Jesus is God's gift to us. For God so loved the world that He gave us Jesus that whoever believes on Him should be saved. Jesus satisfied the perfect justice of God with His death on the cross. He died the death we deserved. We cannot satisfy God's justice with good deeds. The monstrous deception is to believe that we could be saved by good deeds and God's justice will be satisfied. We have to meet God on His terms not ours. His terms are to believe in His son and He even said if in an audible voice documented in the Bible: "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...no comes to the father (God) except through Me" Who has deceived you to think you can get to paradise any other way?
    Again, you are just avoiding to answer my question.
    If you kill someone or do very bad deeds and you don't repent before your death, will you be punished for your sins or you will be forgiven because Jesus died for you?
    I just want a clear answer, either (Yes,I will be punished) or (No, I won't be punished because Jesus died for me)
    If your answer is the first, then there is no difference between Christianity and Islam, if you do major sins you will be punished
    If it's second, then your religion is surely wrong because it encourages you to do bad deeds
    I wonder if all the Christians in the US where you live, who have sexual relationships with their girl friends, believe that they won't be punished and will be forgiven because God killed his son so that they can commit major sins without being punished
    Give me a clear answer

    Also, if Jesus died so you don't die as a punishment for your sins, why do all christians die till today and will continue to die ?
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Well, what you are saying is completely wrong.
    As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
    من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)

    ( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97

    This is the guarantee in Islam :

    (إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)

    النساء 31

    Sahih International
    (If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31

    (وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)

    الأنفال 31

    Sahih International
    (But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31

    So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
    If you do this you are secure
    If you don't do it, it's your fault
    But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
    If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    This is your opinion, but according to us, the teaching that God was slapped by the jews and romans, the teaching that the romans were able to spit on God and nail him to the cross and kill him is a monstrous teaching.
    You are missing the point. You have no guarantees of paradise, and you know it. First of all, good deeds cannot save you, and God doesn't just forgive you unless you meet Him on His terms. Not only good deeds or works cannot save you, even if the could which they cannot, you would never know if you did enough to be pleasing to God. So guarantees you have none in Islam. I am not a Muslim, and I know this; you are Muslim, and you don't know? That is what is ridiculous, and this unequivocally proves to me you are living in denial or deception or both
    Well I really don't understand the point of this discussion
    I am a muslim and I feel safe as long as :
    1- I believe in God and his messenger Muhammad Pbuh and his book the holy Quran and his religion Islam
    2- I do good deeds
    3- I avoid major sins
    4- I ask God to forgive me
    If I die while I am preserving these 4 conditions, I am safe because God is very merciful, he will not throw me in hell if I preserve these 4 conditions
    If you want to claim that I am not safe and I don't have any guarantees, you can go on claiming this, however I am a muslim and I told you what I believe and I mentioned the texts in the holy Quran supporting what I believe in
    Although I feel safe as long as I preserve these 4 conditions, I also fear God, I know if I commit major sins he will punish me and I fear his punishment
    I don't rob or kill or sleep with a girl friend or drink alcohol, I am strict in doing the prayers in time, I don't eat in the mornings of Ramadan because I fear God
    I understand that I am not safe if I do these things
    But as long as I preserve the 4 previously mentioned conditions I am safe because God is so merciful
    I hope you got my point

    My question to you is what if you commit major sins? Are you safe? Are you safe if you sleep with your girl friend or rob someone? If you are safe according to your religion, then your religion is wrong because it encourages you to commit sins, if you are not safe unless you avoid such major sins then there is no more safety or guarantees in Christianity than Islam
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    As mentioned before, we are sure that the Quran has been perfectly preserved because :
    1- The holy Quran has been transmitted orally from the Prophet Pbuh to his companions to those who came after his companions to those who came after them to people who are still living till now.
    2- Uthman has been copying the text that was collected by Abu Bakr which was taken from the quranic text written while prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.

    Although I am able to prove that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved, let's suppose I'm not able to prove that it is perfectly preserved, what about the Bible? You admit that it contains errors and spurious parts.
    Can't you see the difference?
    You can't prove that the quranic text was altered, all what you are trying to say is that I can't prove that the quranic text has been perfectly preserved.
    On the other hand, we are both sure that the biblical text was not perfectly preserved and that it contains spurious parts.
    Can't you see the difference?
    You cannot prove it has been perfectly preserved was my only point. And you know it. Using the Bible cannot prove anything about the Qurans perseveration. You are obviously using it as a red herring.
    I just sometimes think that you are making some ridiculous claims just to avoid admitting that your points were answered.

    I told you that the proof that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved is that it has been transferred to us both orally by many people and written, and both completely match with the quranic text we are reading today. What proof do you want to show that the holy Quran has been preserved?
    Can you prove that the holy Quran has been falsified ? No, you can't. Unless you can prove this, your claim is completely irrelevant.
    Can we prove that the Bible contains spurious parts? Yes and you agree, so your holy book has been falsified and you can't claim that God has preserved it.
    Now, I'm comparing 2 religions.
    The book of one of them is surely falsified.
    The other, there are some claims that its book is falsified, however these claims can't be proved and have been answered completely by those who believe in thiis religion.
    Which religion should I follow? Which religion is in a better situation?
    If you don't the crystal clear answer, then you are not willing to see the truth.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    As mentioned before, according to the arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if some people worship Mary, then they take her as a god even if they don't say directly that she is God. The catholics worship Mary so this means they take her a god.
    As you can see, that I've been using the expression ( As mentioned before) several times because you argue about things that I have answered before without addressing my answer.
    As you can see also, your point is completely gainsaid but you just don't want to admit this.
    Catholics say that they don't consider virgin Mary to be God, but if you read their books you will find that some of their bishops considered Mary divine.
    Let me paste what I said before :

    And as usual, you just didn't bother any of these quotes or the youtube
    The video wouldn't come up for me. My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet? I know of no one who took Mary for God. If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that. If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity. Do you see the blatant discrepancy? So, Islam is in part a religion that is reacting to its misconceptions of Christianity.
    Burninglight, you just want to argue about clear issues.

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    My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet?
    This ridiculous claim shows that you know nothing about Islam.
    We don't worship prophet Muhammad Pbuh at all, we only worship God.
    Read this Hadith :
    - اللَّهمَّ لا تَجعَلْ قَبري وثنًا يُعبَدُ
    الراوي: أبو هريرة المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: غاية المرام - الصفحة أو الرقم: 126
    خلاصة حكم المحدث: صحيح
    English translation :
    Abu Hurraira narrated that the messenger of God Pbuh said : ( OGod don't let my grave be a worshipped statue)

    We don't worship prophet Muhammad Pbuh, we don't ask him to forgive our sins or to let us enter paradise or to save us from hell or to cure us from diseases, we just believe that prophet Muhammad Pbuh is a normal man who died and who was selected by God to be his messenger to mankind, worshipping Prophet Muhammad Pbuh is just like worshipping statues

    Quote
    The video wouldn't come up for me.

    You should change the browser you are using to be able to see it
    Here is the link

    w.y
    ou
    tub
    e.co m
    /wat
    ch?v=L8 HP
    hI7 iwxM

    Paste the link but omit spaces and hopefully you will be able to watch the video

    Yet, you didn't even try to answer the quotes that show that some bishops in the Catholic church considered Mary to be God or equal to God
    I'll paste them again, maybe you will bother to answer them this time

    Quote
    Read this :
    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

    Here are some quotes from this link


    [pg. 416]
    Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency.Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..


    [pg. 419]
    Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...

    [pg. 421]
    Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...


    [pg. 16]
    27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her.
    Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.

    28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that
    Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.

    According to these quotes, Virgin Mary's honour is like God's honour, God is subject to her, she is the divine mother, and finally she transformed into God
    How can you understand these quotes?
    If someone says that Mary transformed into God, then he is surely considering her God

    Quote
    I know of no one who took Mary for God.
    You don't know but I know and I mentioned what they said several times and you are just not bothering to answer these quotes and you are just continuing to claim that no one considered virgin Mary to be God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    This is just a waste of time

    Quote
    If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that.
    Well as I told you, in the arabic language anything or person that is worshipped by some people is a god.
    For example in arabic we say that a cow is a god for the Hindus, however Hindus just worship cows but they don't say frankly that cows are God who created them
    I hope you got the point
    Yet, regarding virgin Mary, some Catholics consider her to be God although they deny this but it's present in their books

    Quote
    If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity.
    Simply because God is saying in this verse what the Christians say.
    Although some Christians worship virgin Mary and although some of them even consider her equal to God, yet they say that there are 3 persons in the Godhead not 4.
    I think the answer is clear but you just want to argue.

    Quote
    No, Allah didn't say a third like you slice candy in thirds. He was clear, and any one can logically infer what was truthfully meant. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" that makes Allah the third person in his question and later Allah confirms by saying "They do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" He didn't say a third which is not what Christianity teaches anyway.
    Quote
    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73)

    The order he said is as clear as crystal 1. son, 2. mother, 3. father/Allah
    Look carefully, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" 1, 2 & the third of 3. I know you can see this so being obtuse or using semantics is lame and cannot get you out of it or make the verse work the way you want to believe.

    Allah said the third not a third of three. Besides, if someone wanted to say a third of the whole, there is not a need to say a third of three. Just saying a third is sufficient to know that a third is one third of three parts, but clearly he didn't say a third ; he said the third. Semantics doesn't work friend, nice try. So you could've convince me and no cigar for you. Again, Catholicism and Biblical Christianity does not believe God is a third. So who was Allah referring to. No one believes in the inferred trinity described by Islam's god or messenger. We all believe God is one. Jesus is not a third of God; He is the word of God, and God is the Holy Spirit!
    Burninglight, you are just grasping straws.
    You are just building conclusions upon your own understanding and your understanding is wrong.
    God said ( Don't say three) because Christians say that there are 3 persons in the Godhead.
    God will ask Jesus Pbuh during judgement day whether he told people to take him and his mother as 2 gods, because some Christians worship Mary, some of them even consider her God.
    Actually there is nothing in the Quran to say that Mary is a part of the trinity except your conclusions.
    Also some early christians called Mariamites, believed that the trinity is the Father, Mary and Jesus.
    Read this :
    http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/0...pped-as-a-god/
    I'll paste the important parts :
    Quote
    There is vast amount of evidence from the Church Fathers that, there was a certain sect in Arabia that believed the Trinity consisted of: “Father, the Son and Virgin Mary.”
    1. George Sale
    “This notion of the divinity of the virgin Mary was also believed by some at the council of Nice, who said there two gods besides the Father, viz., Christ and the Virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the Popish superstition in calling her the compliment of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect with her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous….” [1]
    2. Reverend Gilbert Reid D.D.
    As to Christianity as it was represented in Arabia, it was not a clear untarnished theism, but tritheism. The Heavenly Father, Mary the mother of God and Jesus their son, were WORSHIPPED as three Gods, and their images appeared in the churches along with the images of other saints. Christianity as taught by Christ had lost its identity in the formalism and errors of the church of Arabia. Still more the truths pro-claimed by God through all the ages had been lost sight amid the vain imaginings of men’s hearts. The only God of, an omnipresent spirit, without form or body. The reformation of Mohammed was thus a return to the first and second commandment of the Prophet Moses, which Jesus himself had taught.” [2]
    3. Washington Irving
    The Mariamites, or worshippers of Mary, regarded the Trinity as consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Virgin Mary. The Collydrians were a sect of Arabian Christians, composed chiefly of females. They worshipped the Virgin Mary as possessed of divinity…..” [3]
    4. English theologian Theophilus Lindsey writes:
    “The followers of Christ had been for some ages quarrelling and destroying each other in their heat’s and disputes, not concerning the Supreme Father of all, to whom they paid little attention; but about the nature of Christ. And of the Holy Spirit, and many other objects of worship, which they invented. (t) The notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was believed by some even at the council of Nice: who said there were two gods besides the Father, viz. Christ and the Virgin Mary, and were thence names Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified: which goes but little beyond the Popish superstition, in calling her the complement of the Trinity….” [4]
    5. William Cook Taylor
    “In Arabia itself some of the worst heresies were propagated: the chief of these were the heresies of the Ebonites, the Nazareans, and the Collydrians, the last of which derived its name from the collyris, or twisted cake offered by them to the Virgin Mary, whom they worshipped as a deity. It is known to all readers of ecclesiastical history that a sect called Mariamites exalted the Virgin to a participation in the Godhead, and that writers of the Romish Church have named her the ‘complement of the Trinity.’….” [5]
    6. John Holmes
    “….Jacobites, so called from Jacobus, Bishop of Edessa in Syria, and whose doctrine, directly contrary to that of the Nestorians in one point, denied the double nature of Christ in his state of incarnation: Mariamites, so called because they worshipped the Virgin Mary, and regarded her as, along with the Father, and the Son one of the persons of the Divine Trinity…. “[6]
    7. John Henry Blunt D.D. :
    “In Accordance with which are the statements of certain writers, logically in agreement with the worship they advocate, that St. Mary has been assumed into the Trinity, so as to make it a quaternity, that Mary is the ‘compliment of the Trinity.’” [7]
    8. Allan Freer
    Nestorians, so called from their founder, Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople and whose heresy consisted in a recondite distinction between Jesus the man, and Christ the God-man; Jacobites, so-called from Jacobus, Bishop of Edessa in Syria, and whose doctrine directly contrary to that of the Nestorians in one point, denied the double nature of Christ in his state of incarnation: Mariamites, so-called because they worshipped the virgin Mary, and regarded her as, along with the Father and the Son, One of the persons of the divine Trinity: and collydrians, a sect guilty of similar heresy, and deriving their name from their practice of offering to the virgin Mary a particular kind of cake, called Collyris.[8]
    9. John William Draper
    In the east, in consequence of the policy of the court of Constantinople, the Church had been torn in pieces by contentions and schisms. Among a countless host of disputants may be mentioned Arians, Basilidians, Carpocritains, Collydrians, Eutychians, Gnostics, Jacobites, Marcionites, Marionites, Nestorians, Sabellians, Vallentians. Of these the ; the Collydrians worshipped the Virgin as a divinity, offering her sacrifices of cakes…. [9]
    We can see from all the references quoted, that Mary was indeed believed to be part of the Trinity, by certain Christian sects of Arabia.

    Hope this brings your argument to an end


    Am also surprised about your argument about ( the third of three) or ( a third of three)
    You just say that God the Father (Allah) is a person from 3 persons in the Godhead
    Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 06-07-2014 at 01:35 AM.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    No one can explain God's essences or how He can make His word and Holiness persons which are not thirds, but fully God. It is other earthly or worldly. God cannot be explained by finite beings such as ourselves or incorrect math formulas such as 1+1+1=1. Muslims have no good reason to reject God's tri unity. Just like you accept Allah is one when he say we have sent down the Torah as the royal we, we accept God saying let us make man in our image and likeness as the royal us. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit and yet I am one not three. I cannot make my word a person or my spirit one, but God is not limited. Man is limited and limited in understanding. You have no reason to reject perfect monotheism and the perfect unity of God expressed in His Son (The Word) and Spirit.
    Well, the main reason that makes me sure that the trinity is a made-up faith isn't that it's not logic or that it's difficult to understand, the main reason is that - as I told you previously - it's not mentioned in the Bible.
    Jesus Pbuh in your books never said that there are 3 persons in the Godhead : the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He never said this. If this is the cornerstone of your faith, why didn't Jesus teach it to you?
    Actually Jesus Pbuh was teaching that the only God is the Father, this is what we believe in.
    John 17
    3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
    So according to the teaching of Jesus Pbuh, the Father is the only true God. According to your which Jesus Pbuh never taught, there are 3 persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit.
    Can't you see the major difference between what the church is teaching and what the Christ was teaching ?
    The major difference is very clear, if you deny it because you don't want to see it I won't be able to help you. It's your choice to either admit this clear and obvious difference or to deny it, but you are responsible for your choice, it's either an eternal life in paradise or an eternal life in hell.
    Jesus Pbuh believed that the Father is his God, this is what he was saying to the people, yet the church is just throwing the teaching of the Christ in the bin and claiming that he is God.

    John 20
    17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

    You can either follow the teaching of the Christ or the teaching of the church, you can't follow both because they are completely different.

    The only phrase in the whole Bible that explains frankly the faith of Trinity is spurious and you know this. Nothing in the whole Bible explains the faith of Trinity frankly.
    I challenge you to show me an authentic phrase in the whole Bible frankly speaking about Trinity.
    The word (Trinity) is not even mentioned in the Bible. Trinity is no more than the understanding of some of the early fathers in the 2nd century to the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. It was declared by the church to be the true faith of Christianity at the end of the 4th century after many debates between the different churches. How can I believe in such a faith?

    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    The Jews and Christians were saying God is and was one way before Islam's prophet was born. It is an imperfectly borrowed concept, IMHO, just as is the virgin birth of Jesus which came from the NT Bible first!
    If you see that the concept of a one God in Islam is just borrowed from Judaism and Christianity, then actually there is no use of this discussion, you just have fixed ideas that you don't want to change.
    God is one, this is a fact. God sent his messengers, for example Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them all. God told every messenger to tell the people that he is one and there is no god other than him.
    We can make stupid claims, you can claim that the concept of one God in Islam is borrowed from both Judaism and Christianity, a jewish can claim that Jesus Pbuh borrowed the concept of one God from Moses Pbuh, an atheist can claim that Moses Pbuh borrowed the concept of one God from the pharoah Akhenaten, there is no limit to such stupid claims.
    Regarding the virgin birth, and your claim that Islam borrowed it from the NT, I answered this stupid silly ridiculous claim many times but you just keep repeating the same claim.
    Again I will repeat the answer of this stupid claim for the last time. The virgin birth story is a true story. Luke knew about this story because he did an effort to know evrything about Christ since the beginning of his life, so he wrote this story in his message to Theophilus. Later on, the church took the message of Luke to Theophilus and considered it the word of God and made it a part of the NT.
    600 years later, God sent prophet Muhammad to mankind, and he sent a book with him, the holy Quran. In this book, God mentioned the stories of some of the previous prophets, one of them was prophet Jesus Pbuh, since his birth was a miracle showing the power of God, God mentined the story of his virgin birth in the holy Quran.
    Yet, God mentioned in the holy Quran some details about the virgin birth that were not mentioned in the message of Luke to Theophilus, which was later on considered as the word of God by the church.
    God mentioned in the holy Quran that virgin Mary was sad at the time of the birth of Jesus and she wished that she died before it, because she was afraid that the people will say that she committed adultery and Jesus Pbuh spoke to her just after his birth and told her not to be sad and to eat dates and drink water and be pleased and not to answer people when they attack her and claim that she committed adultery, and when the people saw her carrying him they began to think that she committed adultery but she pointed to her kid Jesus Pbuh and he spoke and that his first words to the people were ( I am the servant of God) and he told the people that God made him a prophet. All these details were not mentioned in Luke's message to Theophilus, which was later on considered by the church to be the word of God, but were mentioned in the holy Quran.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    I did address all your points.
    Surely, you didn't.

    Quote
    What is missing that I didn't address?
    Address the following :
    1- All what has been mentioned in my posts after your last post.tha2- How do you believe that Jesus Pbuh was God although he declared that the Father was the only true God and was his God and although he used to pray to the Father and although he didn't know when was the hour and although he was a man like other men who used to eat, drink, defecate and urinate and who used like other men to have a sexual desire ?
    3- If you admit that the Bible contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts, how do you believe it is the word of God? How do you trust the stories of the Bible? Who knows maybe they are wrong like other errors in the Bible? Maybe the story of the crucifixion and rising again in the third day is a false story. Who knows? How can you trust the Bible as a source of your faith if it contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts?
    4- How do you explain the false prophecies of the Bible and the true prophecies of Islam?
    5- How do you explain the plagarism of the concept of the Logos by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo who was a heretic jew that was alive at the time of Jesus Pbuh ?

    Quote
    I even followed the link you gave and responded in a different way what I had already responded to.
    Do you mean the link that shows texts written by Catholic bishops showing that they believe that virgin Mary is divine and has transformed into God?
    Actually, you have not answered these texts at all, you just ignored them.

    Quote
    You seem to blow off all I say as emotion, but that is not very convincing in a debate or discussion.
    In fact, you are now avoiding using excessive emotions as you used to do before, and this is good.

    Quote
    Please tell me straight out how many times did you have to post before you could post directly?
    This was discussed earlier.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Surely, you didn't..
    I will try again to answer you.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Address the following :
    1- All what has been mentioned in my posts after your last post.tha2- How do you believe that Jesus Pbuh was God although he declared that the Father was the only true God and was his God and although he used to pray to the Father and although he didn't know when was the hour and although he was a man like other men who used to eat, drink, defecate and urinate and who used like other men to have a sexual desire ?.
    I never said Jesus was God the father. I have been consistent to say He is the word of God incarnate or the son of God. He prayed to His father. Prayer is communication. It is not just Him speaking to God but God speaking to Jesus. Jesus calls the father His God, but the father calls Jesus God as well Heb. 1. He also calls Jesus His beloved Son.

    I also said since Jesus is the word of God, he is eternal and uncreated. That is why Jesus is the only prophet that could say before Abraham was I am or the only prophet that could forgive sin and accept worship as Jesus did. Jesus was limited as man. He was less than God in function, office and position , but equal in nature, essence and character. That is why he could say "If you have seen me you have seen the father"This thoroughly answers this question.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    3- If you admit that the Bible contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts, how do you believe it is the word of God? How do you trust the stories of the Bible? Who knows maybe they are wrong like other errors in the Bible? Maybe the story of the crucifixion and rising again in the third day is a false story. Who knows? How can you trust the Bible as a source of your faith if it contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts?.
    Because the central gospel message is totally and completely in tact. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe Jesus is the word of God. The Bible contains a lot of the words of God, but it is like a story or history book of man's failures and God's interaction and interventions. It is sought of like your hadiths and nothing like the Quran is supposed to be. I don't believe the Quran is God's word either. Now, I believe God can speak to us in a small still voice using Scripture; then it becomes the word of God to us. This answers your question here as well.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    4- How do you explain the false prophecies of the Bible and the true prophecies of Islam?.
    There are no false prophecies in the Bible, and there are no prophecies I know of in the Quran. Saying someone will win a battle and that happens could be a lucky guess or a calculated probability and not a prophecy.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    5- How do you explain the plagarism of the concept of the Logos by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo who was a heretic jew that was alive at the time of Jesus Pbuh ?.
    I had answered this in another thread mentioning your name, because you closed this thread and now opened it again. Make up your mind keep it open or closed. Philo and John could've gotten that information from a common source, but this cannot be said about the virgin birth of Jesus; it could only have been borrowed from the original source which is the NT Bible. Therefore, the reason the original source gives for Jesus' virgin birth should be accepted and not a secondary source that imperfectly borrows from the original Scriptures.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Do you mean the link that shows texts written by Catholic bishops showing that they believe that virgin Mary is divine and has transformed into God?
    Actually, you have not answered these texts at all, you just ignored them..
    I didn't see this link. Please post it again, but note that Catholics are not necessarily Biblical Christians. If they worship Mary, consider her divine, and transformed into God, they are not following Christianity, and they are committing idolatry. I have seen Catholics kissing stone statues of saints and Mary in the church, but I don't see how that is any different than Muslims kissing a black stone at the Kaaba. Most Catholic Christians resemble adherents to Islam, IMHO. Most Catholics are nominal Christians. I see Islam as a reaction to Catholicism which is a misconception of true Biblical Christianity like you are hearing from yours truly.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    In fact, you are now avoiding using excessive emotions as you used to do before, and this is good..
    I am glad you approve.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    This was discussed earlier.
    Discussed but not answered. How many posts do we have to make to be able to post directly? Is there a double standard for non Muslims?

    Blessings

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Trinity and development of doctorine

Trinity and development of doctorine