حواري مع نصراني
هذا الحوار جرى على المسنجر مع أحد النصارى باللغة الانكليزية .. أرجو أن تعم الفائدة
disenio_moroleon: hello, God bless you
DEXTER: Hi ,. May God guide us all to the Truth
DEXTER: how are u ?
disenio_moroleon: fine thank you, what is your name
DEXTER: I am Wael ..26m .. u ?
disenio_moroleon: alex,33m, from mexico
disenio_moroleon: i see you are interested in God
DEXTER: nice to chat with u Alex
DEXTER: yeah I am ..
DEXTER: so ?
disenio_moroleon: if i can help you in any question you have, i would be pleased
DEXTER: yeah gimme a minute
disenio_moroleon: ok
DEXTER: now tell me . what do u know about God ?
disenio_moroleon: well, only what the bible states, are you christian ?
DEXTER: not really.. but am interested in christianity
disenio_moroleon: thats a good step
DEXTER: good .. so we agree on this point , that whatever the Bible states , and not what others do
DEXTER: do we agree on that or not?
disenio_moroleon: yes, loke for example:the nature of God is spirit
disenio_moroleon: and God is love
disenio_moroleon: he created you because he wants to love you
disenio_moroleon: in fact He loves you
disenio_moroleon: just as you are
DEXTER: yeah .. i do not want to talk about what He loves and Hates .. actually i wanna know the nature of God and who is God , from the Bible and not from what others say
disenio_moroleon: everything i am going to tell you is in the bible
DEXTER: do not forget to say the verse and chapter
DEXTER: because i wanna check it out too .. and discuss it
DEXTER: and what version u are using
disenio_moroleon: i use a version called reyna-valera
disenio_moroleon: it,s in spanish
disenio_moroleon: i am mexican
DEXTER: yeah. but lets use an english one .. shall we ?
disenio_moroleon: and i suggest that you visit a christian church
disenio_moroleon: they always have the answers we need, because they use the bible
DEXTER: i hope u are good at english the way i am .. English is not my mother-tongue ..
disenio_moroleon: neither is mine
DEXTER: thats too bad . do u mean we are not gonna talk about God ?
disenio_moroleon: what is your first language
disenio_moroleon: ?
DEXTER: Arabic
disenio_moroleon: and wher do you live
DEXTER: middle east . Syria
disenio_moroleon: *where
disenio_moroleon: God bless you friend
disenio_moroleon: this is not a coincidence
DEXTER: Thanks . so can we discuss it out together ?
disenio_moroleon: i was praying God to allow me to speak to someone like you
DEXTER: hmm
disenio_moroleon: did you know in jesus all countries are saved and in grace
disenio_moroleon: everybody
DEXTER: look .. lets talk about God from the Scripture .. do not think that ur telling me somethings without reference means that i shall believe .. remember . am not christian
disenio_moroleon: and i am aware that this is a challenge for you to believe
DEXTER: yeah
disenio_moroleon: i will say it again
disenio_moroleon: everithing i am telling you is in the bible
DEXTER: explain to me from the scripture .. no reference , to creed . I hope we are clear about that .
disenio_moroleon: in the first and second book of the bible
DEXTER: i shall ask Qs and u help me in finding the reference in the Bible .
DEXTER: is that ok ?
disenio_moroleon: the old and new testament
disenio_moroleon: feel free to ask any specific thing
DEXTER: good .
disenio_moroleon: i dont have a bible with me right now
DEXTER: christians beleive that God is Trinity is that right ?
disenio_moroleon: but i will not lie to you
disenio_moroleon: and i can give you that information later
disenio_moroleon: yes
disenio_moroleon: three different persons
disenio_moroleon: but one God
disenio_moroleon: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
disenio_moroleon: may i add you up ?
DEXTER: aha
disenio_moroleon: ok, what else, do you want to know
DEXTER: but u have just said three not one God !
DEXTER: Father is 1 , Son is 2 , Holy Ghost is 3
al diazgerrero: only one God, three different persons
DEXTER: am not getting that
DEXTER: what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: well actually
al diazgerrero: that is something no man can understand completely
al diazgerrero: but i can give you an example
DEXTER: why ? the Bible said that God is not {the author} of confusion !!
al diazgerrero: in Genesis
al diazgerrero: the first book
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: of the bible
al diazgerrero: God says:
al diazgerrero: "lets create man"
DEXTER: lets create man in our image ,, thats what the verse says
al diazgerrero: can you see, He says -"lets"-
al diazgerrero: the word -"lets"- is plural
DEXTER: thank u .. but i wanna ask something . the origianl lang. for the old testiment is in Herbow .. right ?
al diazgerrero: He does not say "i will create...
al diazgerrero: i beleive so
DEXTER: good . then u seem to be completely ignorant about this language ..
al diazgerrero: in Hebrew
al diazgerrero: yes i am
al diazgerrero: i am not hebrew
DEXTER: because this (S) or plural is also in Arabic is used for respect ..
DEXTER: when i talk to my boss in arabic i talk to him in plural form .. and he is still one !
DEXTER: and Herbow is the same also
al diazgerrero: thats interesting
al diazgerrero: but can i give you an example
al diazgerrero: God almighty is the creator, and as a Creator he is the authority
DEXTER: do the jews believe in Trinity ? they understand Herbow more than me and u !!
al diazgerrero: let me tell you that the word trinity never appears in the bible
DEXTER: exactly and that is more confusing!
DEXTER: we said : no reference , no creed //
al diazgerrero: why are you confused, if the bible's main message is that God loves us
DEXTER: good . and i wanna know who is God and what he is !
DEXTER: the first commandment is: O Israel , Your Lord is One God , therefore love thee God with all your heart and all your MIND !
al diazgerrero: and in the same way when some bible writters, describe somtimes the Holy Ghost, others the Son or the Verb, many other times the father
al diazgerrero: God is an organization
DEXTER: see !! we have to love God with our minds too and that means we should use the mind and not ignore it in knowing the nature of God
al diazgerrero: you know that like in a country like mine, here in mexico there is only one governmetn
al diazgerrero: government
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: one
al diazgerrero: but inside this ONE government there are three powers
al diazgerrero: Executive, Legislative, and Juditial
al diazgerrero: three different powers, one government, each independent from one another, but still one same government
al diazgerrero: is that confussing
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: good . i wanna ask asomething now please
al diazgerrero: did you get the idea
DEXTER: may i ask somethin ?
al diazgerrero: yes
al diazgerrero: please, ask
DEXTER: good .
DEXTER: what does Trinity mean ? it means as the creed of Nicea mentoined: Father is God , Son is God, Holy Spirit is God , and they are not three Gods, but One God .
DEXTER: is that right ?
al diazgerrero: trinity means three
DEXTER: this is the creed of Nicea . is that right or wrong ?
al diazgerrero: those creeds were written by catholics in there councils
DEXTER: so ?
DEXTER: is it right or wrong ?
al diazgerrero: but for true chrisian beleviers it really doesn;t matter what men writes, we only have for valid what the bible says
DEXTER: good . if trinity is not in the Bible , where did they got it from ?
DEXTER: haven't we agreed that no reference , no creed! ?
al diazgerrero: the catholic capital is in italy
al diazgerrero: in rome
DEXTER: i don't care if it was on the moon
al diazgerrero: and they used a language called latin
DEXTER: is trinity in the Bible or not ?
al diazgerrero: in latin trinity is 3
DEXTER: if not , who did u know that God is Trinity ?
al diazgerrero: can i say somthing?
DEXTER: what verse did say: God is Trinity ?
DEXTER: sure go on
al diazgerrero: i said before that no where
al diazgerrero: there are to main kind of beleviers
DEXTER: if such a crucial matter is not in the Bible , then how did u know that God is Trinity ?
al diazgerrero: this will explain many things, pay attention
al diazgerrero: the bishop of rome the pope
al diazgerrero: he is an authority in himself, for the people that beleive what they say
al diazgerrero: they are the catholics
DEXTER: my friend , i do not care what the pope said .. i wanna know what the Bible said !!
DEXTER: does the pope knows God more than God himself ?
al diazgerrero: and they say, write and do many things that are not written and authorized by God
al diazgerrero: unfortunattely yes, the vatican says that he is like God here on earth
DEXTER: my friend do not try to go round and round . i know about christianity more than u think ! please answer me .. u said in the beginning: i know God from the Bible.. and u said that God is Trinity , then where does it say that ? is that difficult ?
al diazgerrero: take it easy
DEXTER: is God that disabled to tell us the truth about himslef? am not sure about that. am trust me i am so cool
al diazgerrero: ok
al diazgerrero: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible
al diazgerrero: and if you read the bible
DEXTER: i read it more than the Pope himself .
al diazgerrero: it shouldnt be so difficult to see that the hole bible leads us to something very important: Jesuschrist
DEXTER: good . u have just said very important statement: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible!! now where is Trinity in the Bible ?!
al diazgerrero: he is the answer
al diazgerrero: he said: I am the way, the truth, and life
al diazgerrero: you can not reach God except through me
al diazgerrero: it is not religion, it is a relationship with God through Jesus
DEXTER: if there is not a single reference in the Bible that God is Trinity , then there is only two answers for that puzzle : either God is One in absolute and not Trinity , or there are three Gods as we have just seen !
DEXTER: imagine !! not a single verse to tell us that God is Trinity or three persons !
al diazgerrero: and if you confesse with your mouth that you beleive in jesuschrist, and allow him to live inside of you He promised to send the Holy Spirit, who will help you understand His words
DEXTER: u are going far away from the subject ..
DEXTER: lets keep to the trinity
al diazgerrero: probably from the subject, but not from gods will, because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere
DEXTER: good . u are contradicting urself now : because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere.. now tell me . where is Trinity in his words ?
al diazgerrero: i said before that the word trinity is not in the text
DEXTER: how can u believe in it if it is not there ? is God trinity or not ?
al diazgerrero: god himself never commanded me to beleive in that specific word
DEXTER: then what is he commanded us to believe ?
al diazgerrero: that he is the living God
DEXTER: forget the word . it is not in the Bible.. now tell me .. where did the Bible say that God is three persons but One God ?
al diazgerrero: and that there is no other god
al diazgerrero: and then he commands us to love
al diazgerrero: to love our neighbor us we love ourselves
DEXTER: before He commands me of anything , I must undurstand God , know who He is , is He One or more .. u know what I mean ?
al diazgerrero: the bible never says that
DEXTER: isn't that His First Commandment? to Love thee Lord with all thee minds ?
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: before telling anyting , He commanded me to undertand God .. to use my mind
DEXTER: so lets Love God with all our mind .. shall we?
al diazgerrero: yes in that order it means that you have to love him with all your sincere capacity
al diazgerrero: because in you mind are your thoughts
DEXTER: exactly . i wanna love God in the frist place before going to anohter point . and e commanded me to love Him in all my mind .
al diazgerrero: you should think of God as often as possible
DEXTER: I believe in God , my friend . but maybe not the way you do , and thats why I am here with u
al diazgerrero: for example everytime you are said or worried, or a problems does not go away
al diazgerrero: you should first of all think of God
DEXTER: I do .. trust me . and because of that , am trying to look for the nature of God in the Bible
al diazgerrero: because he is more important, and the most imprtant thing in life because he is life
DEXTER: is he ONE or THREE? ONE IN a TRINITY? HOW DID U KNOW THAT ?
al diazgerrero: i thought we were going to leave that word behind
DEXTER: ONE IN THREE PERSONS << is that better ?
al diazgerrero: there is the mistery because God can not divide himself
DEXTER: aha
DEXTER: if He can not devide himself , then why three persons ?
DEXTER: why not 1 perosn ?
DEXTER: as He is ONE
al diazgerrero: i think it is better to say that there are three persons in one God
DEXTER: Three persons in ONE GOD >> explain it how it could be
al diazgerrero: can i tell you something
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: do you know where sin started
DEXTER: my sins?
al diazgerrero: no
al diazgerrero: not your personal or my personal sins
DEXTER: and do not change the subject . we are talking about God not sins. i know the so-called original sin ..
al diazgerrero: i mean Sin
al diazgerrero: where
DEXTER: i want to ask u someting too ..
al diazgerrero: where did it begin
DEXTER: did u eat from the apple that Adam ate ?
DEXTER: do u know its taste ?
DEXTER: is it difficult to understand ?
al diazgerrero: one minute please
DEXTER: ok
DEXTER: u there?
DEXTER: hello ?
al diazgerrero: yes
al diazgerrero: i am at my work
al diazgerrero: and was in to something
DEXTER: ok me too . take ur time .. i understand .
al diazgerrero: but i am back now
DEXTER: w/b
al diazgerrero: i was remembering that in the bible nothing is sais of an apple
al diazgerrero: *said
al diazgerrero: it is written of a fruit
al diazgerrero: but let me tell you that Sin did not start there
DEXTER: whatever ..
DEXTER: fruit or apple
DEXTER: did u eat that apple ?
DEXTER: do u know how it tastes ?
al diazgerrero: hehehe, you wer checking it out right
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: no i was busy at work
al diazgerrero: you think i ma trying to fool you
DEXTER: no am trying to discuss it out .
DEXTER: I wanna love God with all my mind . this is the first commandment . remember ?
al diazgerrero: i would never lie to you
al diazgerrero: yes and that is something good, but according to the new testament
DEXTER: good . so did u eat that fruit? this is the second run from my Qs right now
al diazgerrero: jesuschrist is the way remeber
al diazgerrero: *remember
al diazgerrero: Sin did not start there
DEXTER: then where tell me
al diazgerrero: in heaven, with the disobedience of the rebel angel called lucifer
DEXTER: ok .. do we hold responsibilty for this ?
al diazgerrero: our responsability is not to ignore the attacks of him
DEXTER: good . now tell me.. are we responsible for Adam eatin that fruit ?
DEXTER: ha ? are we or not ?
DEXTER: still there ?
DEXTER: hello ?
al diazgerrero: sorry friend
al diazgerrero: i was busy suddenly
DEXTER: its ok
DEXTER: i understand .
DEXTER: so are u gonna asnwer me frankly and tell me no lies ?
al diazgerrero: in the garden there was also the tree of life
DEXTER: my friend , I know the story trust me
DEXTER: i just wanna know : are we responsible for that sin or not?
al diazgerrero: and when adam disobeid, he lost his right to be there, and so his family, when they could not eat from the tree of life, then is when the death process started
al diazgerrero: thats why we inherit death
DEXTER: do u mean that death is because of that sin ?
al diazgerrero: yes, the pay of sin is death
DEXTER: then tell me , why do animals die ?
DEXTER: did they eat from that fruit too ?
al diazgerrero: interesting
al diazgerrero: yes, all the creatures
DEXTER: ??!!!
al diazgerrero: thats why the bible says that the earth suffers at one, like a living organism
DEXTER: what all creatuers ?
al diazgerrero: all means all
DEXTER: they all ate from that fruit ?
al diazgerrero: i could not asure that, but i can tell you this, before sin appeared, there were not even thorns in this world,it was perfectly beautiful
al diazgerrero: and thats why when Jesus was killed that he wore in his head a crown of thorns, to undo the curse
DEXTER: then how can u tell me that we inherit death because of the fruit , while all other creatures die too ? u pormised to tell the truth
al diazgerrero: we inherit death because of the sin of disobedience, because God was clear to adam, he was warned
DEXTER: see now !!!: two pillars of chrsitianity u were anable to proove for me !
DEXTER: and do animals disobey God too ?
DEXTER: because every creature dies .. that means , all creatures disobey God
al diazgerrero: animals, are like babies, they don't know annything
DEXTER: that means: they do not disobey God !!
DEXTER: then why they die ?
al diazgerrero: because they live in this same world
DEXTER: no my friend that is not the reason . if God was mad at me , then He will not curse u because u are living in the same wolrd .
DEXTER: that is not fair .. and God does is the absolutely fair . is He?
al diazgerrero: it is written that all the world suffers at one, because of the wikcedness of sin, not because of your wikcedness
DEXTER: why do I have to suffer for somethig i did not do ? is that fair or not? just answer me .. is it fair or not ?
al diazgerrero: i think that God knows what he is doing
al diazgerrero: in His own way,because he loves us
al diazgerrero: if he let His own Son die, he surely wants you to participate in this task
DEXTER: that is a great word : He loves us .. then why should we pay penelty for something we did not do ?
DEXTER: if u love ur son , then u will not punish him for what the son of ur friend did .. !
al diazgerrero: and why did Jesus suffer ?
DEXTER: thats what i wanna know!
DEXTER: for what ?
al diazgerrero: because he loves us, and he does not want us to die for ever
DEXTER: if he loves us, then why should i die for something i did not do ?
DEXTER: did u eat from that fruit? no neither did I .. then that is not fair
al diazgerrero: do you want to be a part of his plans?
DEXTER: i want to stick to his commandments . : to love my Lord with all my mind
DEXTER: this is God's first commandment . i wanna practice it
al diazgerrero: that means you want to stick to his plans, because you can not love and disobey at the same time
DEXTER: look . the first is first .. do not tell me to love others while first commandment is not yet practiced
DEXTER: i wanna know God with all my mind to love Him .. thats why i wanna know if i hold responsibilty fir something i did not do ..
DEXTER: if He shoulders me soemthing I did not do , then I know now one of God's sides, and that is He is not fair.
al diazgerrero: one moment please
DEXTER: ok tyt
al diazgerrero: you are free to think whatever you like, but the truth is that you are alive right
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: and maybe he "unfairly gave you the gift of life"
DEXTER: ? what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: well you are saying God is unfair
DEXTER: NO! Never . God is the MOST FAIR .
DEXTER: if God is not Fair , then who esle is ?
al diazgerrero: ok, friend
al diazgerrero: then watch your words
DEXTER: I am am trying to understand origoanl sin thats all
al diazgerrero: the original sin is disobedience
al diazgerrero: and you are no longer in that curse of the original sin once you accept Jesus in your life
DEXTER: but u have just disobeyed God !!
al diazgerrero: why
al diazgerrero: how
DEXTER: God's first commandment is : LOVE THEE LORD WITH ALL THEE MIND.. and u are telling me to accept something that is not logic!
DEXTER: if God is Fair , then why I am responsible for something i did not do ?
al diazgerrero: what is not logic, do you think god is logic, he is not humanly logic
DEXTER: If God is not humanly logic , then how does He commands me to love him with all my mind ?
al diazgerrero: because he has the right to, he is your creator
DEXTER: if I do not understand Him , then this command has a false one !
al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
DEXTER: or there is no original sin nor trinity as u could not proove
al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
DEXTER: I do understand him ,. maybe better than christians themselves
DEXTER: but what I do not understand is the pillars of Christianity
al diazgerrero: ok, thats good
DEXTER: Trinity, Original Sin .. as far
DEXTER: and yet u are not making me love God with all my mind , but asking me to have Blind faith ,
DEXTER: and that is not what God wants .
DEXTER: He wants me to love Him with all my mind
al diazgerrero: ok, i think, you don't need my help...
al diazgerrero: you are smarter than me
DEXTER: why ? are all chrsitians unable to proove Trinity from the Bible? that means this is not true! it means this is a false creed ..
DEXTER: if there is not a single verse for it !! then why should I believe in it!!? just because the Pope said that ? i do not worship the Pope .. but my creator ..
al diazgerrero: well why don't you enlighten me
al diazgerrero: yes,that is good, we should only woreship our Lord almighty
DEXTER: good then we agree now
DEXTER: that means: I should not believe in someting unless God said that clearly .
DEXTER: for example :
DEXTER: God said in countless places that He is ONE!
DEXTER: that means :: He is ONE! and not any other thing rather than ONE!
DEXTER: is it clear? ONE means: ONE in everything ..
DEXTER: and since there is not a single verse that validates Trinity or that three persons are merged or all are one , then how can I take it for granted ?
DEXTER: God never said that .. then I should not beleive in something God did not say!
DEXTER: in that way , I love God with all my mind
al diazgerrero: have you ever read the evangelism of john
DEXTER: only that way , I practice the first commandment ONLY!
DEXTER: I wanna read the Bible .. not anything esle!
al diazgerrero: well that book is inside the bible
DEXTER: I wanna know God from the Bible .. because if it is not in the Bible , then it should not be anywhere esle
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