محاور
QuoteOriginally Posted by Burninglight
Two things:
1. That the earliest gospels portrayed the one on the crusifix yelling god why did you forsake me meaning abandon me
2. The re is a contradiction between the gospel of Mark and Matthew from one side and luke and john from the other
The gospels of Mark and Matthew portrays Jesus's last words as god why have you forsaken me while Luke deletes that and states that Jesus's last words was father into your hands I commit my spirit
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I don't know the answer, but I would be so fast to call it a contradiction. Maybe, they are recording different last words they remember Jesus saying. A contradiction means one thing cannot be said if another thing is being said. For instance, one saying Jesus died on the cross and rose and the other says he didn't die are rise. That is a significant contradiction, but I don't have a problem with Jesus' last words when I believe he could have said both or either one of them that doesn't contradict the central gospel messageQuote
peace.
محاور
Thank you for being honest in your answerQuote
As for maybe he would have spoke both well that is impossible for reasons which I showed in response number 57 on page 6, basically the context in both is talking about his last words
Why did I bring up such a question:
1. The last words in the gospel of Mark and Matthew god why have you forsaken me , portrays Jesus as giving up and declaring that god left him !!!!
2. The contradiction of the last words of Jesus shows an unreliability in the gospels plus downplays the whole Christian argument about eyewitnesses of the crusifix of Jesus since both Matthew and Luke were there according to christian claims and there so called gospels written by them (as what christians claim).
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Sure, not a problem; there are many difficulties for me in the Bible I don't know the answer to nor do I accept all of what other Christians give as solutions, but I don't give up on the Bible, but I would give up on it if its transmission was like that of the Quran (direct dictation from God), but it was only written by the way men understood God interacted with them, and we Christians try to glean from it what God's purpose and will is for our lives, but it gets more involved when a believer becomes born again and filled by God's Spirit. We then see things that bear witness with our spirit that confirm personal revelation from God to us. God interacts with born again believers that is what Jesus told Nicodemus "You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven" Nicodemus was a religious Jew who carefully followed OT Mosaic law, but Jesus was telling him that is not enough, and that he must be born anew. Nicodemus couldn't understand it. He asked "how can a man enter his mother's womb and be born again when he is old?" Jesus responded, that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. The wind blow where it wants. You hear it but don't where it is coming from or where it is going; so are those born of the spirit. Nicodemus said how can that be. Jesus said, if you don't believe earthly things I tell you, how can you believe or understand the spiritual things?" I have been born again and understand what Jesus was talking about, but I cannot make it make sense to someone who hasn't experienced this new birth Jesus spoke of. These stories are not Biblical corruptions. it is the foundations of our salvation. You will know it only when you ask Jesus to be born again like a child believing. Jesus said "except you become a child you shall not enter into heaven." He said be like a child (in faith) not childish!Quote
Maybe, but just the same, it doesn't hurt the central gospel message in my mind's eye or in the eye of Christianity obviously.Quote
Not to me. It is consistent with the fact that Jesus took on the sin of the world, and God turned His back on Him (sin) for a short time as given in prophecy: "For I short time I forsook you, but I have taken you back with loving kindness" It makes perfect sense to me. It is not like Jesus' righteous disappeared. He put on our sin, and when we accept God's gift by accepting Jesus, the righteousness of Christ comes on the believer. That is why Jesus said "you will die in your sin unless you believe I am he and no comes to God except through me." Jesus was joking when He kicked them out of Eden, and it wasn't for no reason He shed His blood. The shadow of Jesus sacrifice was like that of the Passover in the torah. The blood of the lamb saved their souls like the blood of Christ saves ours from spiritual eternal death, but we have to meet God on His terms.Quote
Not to me. It makes it more creditable, because if every thing lined up perfectly, you could think this was put together by one person who made all the pieces fit perfectly. As I had mentioned, if 12 people go to an event and report back, their stories will not be identical, but that doesn't mean the event didn't happen the way they understood it and reported it. They may have seen it from a different point of view. I don't know for sure, but I am not going to let it rob me of my faith, the joy and strength God has blessed me with.Quote
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محاور
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So what is the point you said we would understand when we are born again !!!1 but yet you do not understand , you are accepting certain beliefs because you said it shows you the kingdom of heaven yet you cannot answer specific questions about Jesus and his message !!!! I guess the idea about seeing the kingdom of heaven is a metaphor about good feelings and comfort after believing in a specific ideology about Jesus!!! My friend this exists in all religions
Your idea is believe and you will feel better !!!! believe and then I will prove it to you !!!! yet you yourself do not have a lot of answers!!!
The contradiction actually do hit the central message , I mean we do not know what Jesus the son of God actually said when he was crusfied !!!! There is a contradiction in one of the most important events in the christian central theme
As for this pasage : "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
Isaiah 54: 7
This is within the context of God talking to Israel not the other way around!!!!! God can abandon us if we astray and this is the point , why would Jesus say this ????
However the passage says for a brief moment but Jesus once he said that he died !!!! it was his last words according to Mark and Matthew!!!!!
Finally there is a difference between lining up and contradiction , they all according to christians saw it but there are various discrepencies !!!!! discrepencies and contradictions in the most important parts!!!! one says he said something and the other says he said another thing !!!!!
and the propblem is that you want me to belive that they were both aspired by god!!!!! how????
If 12 people attend a man's death in a hospital and the man shouts a certain thing before he dies so that everybody would hear it , I serously doubt that they would all differ at that point!!!
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عضو مميز
Good question brother, according to Christians it doesn't matter even if every single person of the 12 gave different accounts, what matters is what Christians want to believe.Quote
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What specific questions? Seeing the kingdom of God is not a metaphor. It is not about feelings. Our feelings according to my understanding of our Scriptures make nice servants but very poor leaders. You could be right about good feelings existing in all religions of course that includes Islam right?Quote
How does it impact the central gospel message? Yes, God is talking to Israel, but Jesus is the culmination of all that happens to Israel for he was sent to them! I have addressed this clearly to you by saying that Jesus became sin for the world, and God turned His back on Him for a time, but the righteousness of Christ came into those who received Him as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. People who reject this message will die in their sin as Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He." I believe Jesus not Islam's messenger who contradicts the Scriptures that came before!Quote
People wrote things as they saw them and understood them. It is not God speaking via dictation through and angle like in the Quran. The most important part was that Jesus died for our sin (not Jesus' last words before death that doesn't change the central gospel message) and we can be saved from our sin past, present and future; it is the grace of God helps us to live perfect and holy lives.Quote
As for you hospital example of 12 people attending a man's death in a hospital and the man shouts a certain thing before he dies so that everybody hears it, and you seriously doubting that they would all differ at that point, is a good point, but perhaps if sixty or seventy years had gone by after they share their testimony or it is documented, you might not doubt it so seriously then.
Again the important thing is that Jesus did die for our sin, and those who reject this gift of God (Jn. 3:16) go to eternal damnation first to the Jew, because as you mentioned, and I agree, Jesus came for them first; God opened the door for all people groups after they (Jews) refused the invitation to dine with the King and God of the universe. You see the point I am making mainly is your argument doesn't have any effect on the central gospel message, but Allah implying misconceptions of our God's tri unity shows a discrepancy that impacts my believing that the Quran came from an all knowing God.
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محاور
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First : you said that seeing the kingdom of god as you say does not mean feelings , then what is it if it is not knowledge since you say you do not have answers yet !!!!!
Second: the passage never said anything about culmination it is your personal interpritation of the text which the context of the text does not support
What are you talking about righteousness !!!!! this has nothing to do with what Jesus said nor does it give a viable answer !!!!
The text say that Jesus's last words was asking god why he left him!!! then he shouted and died !!!! any person who can read will simply deduct this as the person not wanting to die and feels like he failed !!!!
Third No the last words of Jesus are important as his concept of dying for others , especially that his last words would reflect his beliefs. The last words for every human being is important, no body would in their right mind say giberish for their last words rather they would say what they felt
Fourth : If the twelve men wrote what happened years later and because that they started to forget then that my friend proves that :
1. Most of what they wrote are unreliable
2. They were not guided by God because forgetting things related to God's scripture before documenting it means that God did not support their writing nor were they guided by the holy ghost when writting
Note: I will not respond to topics not related to what we are discussing , so I will quote what we are discussing only. These crafty tactics of yours will not work
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it is an experience and revelation of knowledge and truth that can accompany feelings but necessarily. Didn't you know there is a difference between knowledge and feelings? Take love for instance, love can accompany feelings but not necessarily. You can give your enemy who is thirsty a cup of water without having feelings be they emotional or whatever.Quote
I never said the passage says that explicitly, but we can infer that from Biblical hermeneutics and Biblical scholars concur. It is not my private interpretation as you say. It is understood by the congregation of churches in general. You are the one coming up with private interpretation that Jesus shouting out His last words means failure and a discrepancy in the central gospel message. You are seeing this all on your own. We don't see what you talking about as being a point here, because it isn't.Quote
Some people do say gibberish as their last words. Look it up online. A man gave his last words before being put to death on an electric chair: "You people are going to see French fries." Jesus saying "Why have you forsaken me" is not gibberish but it is significant to our belief that Jesus became cursed so we could e blessed; he died so we could live; HE BECAME SIN so we could be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. These are things that will make no sense to the unregenerated mind, heart and soul. Jesus said, "You must be born again..." That is why the Bible states that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God!!!Quote
It is your opinion and nothing more that the BIBLE IS NOT RELIABLE as you have mentioned so many times. I can say the same about the Quran. The truth is both of our faiths have difficulties in them that we don't always know the answer to. I am willing to admit it, but Muslims are not it seems, and I understand why, but it doesn't stop me from seeing them in the Quran.Quote
Your comment about me being crafty wasn't necessary. You just want to keep me on the defensive about the Bible, and don't want to be on the defensive about the Quran so you call me "crafty." The title of this thread is to examine what makes more sense between any aspects of our faith; so there is no craft involved when I use the Quran as an example of what the Bible is not in terms of how we received our Scriptures.
Islam has to attack Christianity to promote its religion, but Christianity doesn't have to do this, and it is not a reaction against other faiths the way the Quran is against the Bible. The Bible just tells you it is this and that way and lets the chips fall where they may, and for this reason, Christianity with all its difficulties makes more sense to me than Islam.
Peace
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Mat. 27 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Luke: 23: 44) It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Jesus could have said both at different times at and around the 9th hour. It does say about the 9th hour.
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