Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

[Burninglight]

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First the concerns about the blog privelages is not within my hands nor with my power. I advise you to talk to the blog mediators and managers so that they would tend to your concerns and demands.

We have brought up our concerns about this several times, and it hasn't been addressed. This should concern you. If you were on a Christian forum, and you couldn't post directly after a 100 posts, I would get on the administrators about it on your behalf. We can only see this as a reflection of your belief system and theirs.

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Second : My criticisism to your responses is based on three facts: 1. the fact that you quote some of my responses and ommit the rest 2. The mistinterpritation of my responses based on not reading my responses well 3. The fact that you are drifting away from the subject and writting things that have nothing to do with our discussion. You also have ignored certain subjects that we have already discussed and which you could not answer and brought it up again here claiming that I have proven nothing!!!!!!!!

I have read her comments and she appears to address your concerns. You cannot blame her for you're not accepting them. Moreover, you should be specific about what is not being addressed.

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Third : Now to your claim about the passage in the songs.....

It is not really about her claims of song of Solomon; it is your claims that are of concern. We Christians and even the Jews know this is not about your prophet. You are trying to mix Hebrew and Arabic, you would have to apply the term muhammadim (which is not used as a noun in context) to be referring to your prophet everywhere it is used, then you'll have to plug in your prophet's name everywhere that term appears. If you do that, you will see the ridiculous of that claim.

How can you expect Islam to make more sense than Christianity? How can you tell us that the Bible is corrupted when Allah told Muhammad he sent it to him the toran and Injil as revelation, guidance and light? We still have the same Scripture your messenger Muhammad had access to in the 7th cnetury. How can you expect us to believe that he is a prophet for us when he doubted his own revelation was from God. His older wife assured he it was from Allah. Islam appears to be woman inspired. Muhammad wanted to commit suicide, because he believed he was possessed by jinn.
How can you expect us to trust our souls to such a messenger? If anyone attempts to corrupt the Bible, it has been Islam's message. The Bible says Jesus is the truth, life and way. It doesn't say He shows us the way, life and truth. He is it! All things were made by Him for Him and through Him. At least be honest and admit that you can see how we can come to the conclusions we do, but you cannot even do that; so you turn your head pretending you don't see and that we are not answering your questions

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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We have brought up our concerns about this several times, and it hasn't been addressed. This should concern you. If you were on a Christian forum, and you couldn't post directly after a 100 posts, I would get on the administrators about it on your behalf. We can only see this as a reflection of your belief system and theirs.
I have read her comments and she appears to address your concerns. You cannot blame her for you're not accepting them. Moreover, you should be specific about what is not being addressed.
It is not really about her claims of song of Solomon; it is your claims that are of concern. We Christians and even the Jews know this is not about your prophet. You are trying to mix Hebrew and Arabic, you would have to apply the term muhammadim (which is not used as a noun in context) to be referring to your prophet everywhere it is used, then you'll have to plug in your prophet's name everywhere that term appears. If you do that, you will see the ridiculous of that claim.

How can you expect Islam to make more sense than Christianity? How can you tell us that the Bible is corrupted when Allah told Muhammad he sent it to him the toran and Injil as revelation, guidance and light? We still have the same Scripture your messenger Muhammad had access to in the 7th cnetury. How can you expect us to believe that he is a prophet for us when he doubted his own revelation was from God. His older wife assured he it was from Allah. Islam appears to be woman inspired. Muhammad wanted to commit suicide, because he believed he was possessed by jinn.
How can you expect us to trust our souls to such a messenger? If anyone attempts to corrupt the Bible, it has been Islam's message. The Bible says Jesus is the truth, life and way. It doesn't say He shows us the way, life and truth. He is it! All things were made by Him for Him and through Him. At least be honest and admit that you can see how we can come to the conclusions we do, but you cannot even do that; so you turn your head pretending you don't see and that we are not answering your questions

Peace

The accusations about the prophet wanted to commit suicide is a lie it is based on weak narration not authentic or Daeef ضعيف . These narrations have a weak chain of oral transmission

The idea about the prophet going to Khadija is a lie , khadija only assured him that it was ok and she asked her cousin who told her it was gabriel , the prophet described to khadija what he saw and the revelations and she went to ask her cousin, Moses was also afraid when he first heard god in mount Sania

BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT.

First I no sentence in your response shows an actual answer rather , we know better so we are better that is your logic (although there are many christians and jews who accepted islam in the time of the prophet , there were rabbis such as Abdullah ibn Salam and mukarieeq who accepted islam, solomon the persian , tamim ibn aws, the patriarch of najran, the king of ethiopia accepted islam so such an argument is weak

Second: I wondered why at first you weren't given such privelages in the blog but after seeing such responses , it seems that the mediators and the managers of the blog have a right . You have broken many rules in such a response. You are NOT allowed to draw up new topics in a simple response as a way to divert away from the main topic. You are NOT allowed to draw accusation which is also away from the main topic without proof. You are NOT allowed to igore the responses of others. You are not allowed to fill your response the blog page with things that has nothing to do with the topic and any kind of debate subject like these statements:

If anyone attempts to corrupt the Bible, it has been Islam's message. The Bible says Jesus is the truth, life and way. It doesn't say He shows us the way, life and truth. He is it! All things were made by Him for Him and through Him

Then you have the nerve to say this :

At least be honest and admit that you can see how we can come to the conclusions we do, but you cannot even do that; so you turn your head pretending you don't see and that we are not answering your question

Where in the world in this pathetic (with all do respect) response did you actually answer?
How many times did you ommit my quotes???
How many times have you ignored my questions???
When will you answer about the ending in Mark???

More importantly you are NOT allowed to mix up between topics that are in different subjects


peace

[Burninglight]

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The accusations about the prophet wanted to commit suicide is a lie it is based on weak narration not authentic or Daeef ضعيف . These narrations have a weak chain of oral transmission

The idea about the prophet going to Khadija is a lie , khadija only assured him that it was ok and she asked her cousin who told her it was gabriel , the prophet described to khadija what he saw and the revelations and she went to ask her cousin, Moses was also afraid when he first heard god in mount Sania

BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT.

I believe the hadiths about your prophet's experience on the mountain were what happened, but I can understand you were able to find sources to tell you what you want to believe. As for Moses, he drew near to see why the bush was burning yet was not consumed by the fire. God called out to Moses from the burning bush, and gave him a commission to lead the Israelites, God's people, out of Egypt. He was not afraid as you have us believe. Additionally, if it is not the point of this thread, then you have changed the subject and yet you are able to post directly, but I am not allowed to make such mistakes. Look, this is an injustice and the last time I'll mention about not being able to post directly to you. It seems any excuse will do to keep both Pandora and I from having the same posting advantage you have. Maybe you need the handicap. We are the only Christians that appear to be on this forum. You have two true Biblical Christians here. So you have an opportunity to know what Christians think and see as opposed to nominal Christians that don't know Jesus and only know about Him. These type of nominal Christians convert to either JWs, Mormons or Islam. Once a Christian is born again and sees Jesus, it is impossible for him or her to convert or revert as you'd say to Islam. The best we can hope to do for each other here is dispel misconceptions we have about one another's faith. As for the Book of Mark can you repeat what troubled you about it, but also mention how you see that interferes with the central gospel message.

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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I believe the hadiths about your prophet's experience on the mountain were what happened, but I can understand you were able to find sources to tell you what you want to believe. As for Moses, he drew near to see why the bush was burning yet was not consumed by the fire. God called out to Moses from the burning bush, and gave him a commission to lead the Israelites, God's people, out of Egypt. He was not afraid as you have us believe. Additionally, if it is not the point of this thread, then you have changed the subject and yet you are able to post directly, but I am not allowed to make such mistakes. Look, this is an injustice and the last time I'll mention about not being able to post directly to you. It seems any excuse will do to keep both Pandora and I from having the same posting advantage you have. Maybe you need the handicap. We are the only Christians that appear to be on this forum. You have two true Biblical Christians here. So you have an opportunity to know what Christians think and see as opposed to nominal Christians that don't know Jesus and only know about Him. These type of nominal Christians convert to either JWs, Mormons or Islam. Once a Christian is born again and sees Jesus, it is impossible for him or her to convert or revert as you'd say to Islam. The best we can hope to do for each other here is dispel misconceptions we have about one another's faith. As for the Book of Mark can you repeat what troubled you about it, but also mention how you see that interferes with the central gospel message.

Peace

I really could care less of what you belief . Your belief in daeef hadeeths equils someone who beliefs in the heritic gospels in chritianity, you could care less about it. The hadeeth was rejected for a problem in the oral chain of transmission .

I have not changed the subject you changed it to the begining of the revelation of the prophet and your argument is that I belive that these nonauthentic narrations are true !!!!!!

You still have not answered about the passage in songs you do not have the right to keep changing the topic like this you are breaking the rules by ignoring the other's responses this kind and way is not how a debate is conducted you are using emotional words to fill up your responses plus cherry picking from the bible and ignoring my responses while trying to divert from the main topic that is not how a debate works my friend . And you still wonder why you are not given certain privelages ???

peace

[Burninglight]

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I really could care less of what you belief . Your belief in daeef hadeeths equils someone who beliefs in the heritic gospels in chritianity, you could care less about it. The hadeeth was rejected for a problem in the oral chain of transmission .

I have not changed the subject you changed it to the begining of the revelation of the prophet and your argument is that I belive that these nonauthentic narrations are true !!!!!!

You still have not answered about the passage in songs you do not have the right to keep changing the topic like this you are breaking the rules by ignoring the other's responses this kind and way is not how a debate is conducted you are using emotional words to fill up your responses plus cherry picking from the bible and ignoring my responses while trying to divert from the main topic that is not how a debate works my friend . And you still wonder why you are not given certain privelages ???

peace

I am not changing the topic. It is all about what makes more sense Christianity or Islam which is the topic of this thread, and it doesn't go against rules to bring up sub topics that support the thread title. Iit sounds to me like you are trying to make trouble for me that is not necessary. If you think I shouldn't be able to post directly and need this disadvantage, that is fine and your opinion. I don't want to hear about it any more from you, and I told you this already so you are bent on changing the topic of this thread and sticking to it after I told I will discuss it no further with you. You bait me to be off topic and then judge me when I do it, but it is all par for the course. I know you don't care what I think, but the sources I gave about your prophet's reaction on Mt. Hira is from Muslim sources. From Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106. Words in [ ] type brackets are mine. Words in ( ) brackets are the author's.

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

Can you proof this is not authentic? it is from Muslims sources is it not? Are you going to say all the things you don't like are weak oral traditions?

The "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd, translated by S. Moinal Haq, [4], page 225 has Muhammad saying:

"O Khadija, I see light and hear sounds and I fear I am mad".

The visitations from the spirit continued. Then they stopped for a time believed to have been from 6 months to 3 years. When this happened, Tabari, [5], volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himself."



Also, from Tabari Vol. 9, page 167, note 1151 says:



"The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons...."

This explains why Muhammad thought he was demon possessed, or influenced by demons; the Quran in many places reads like typical Arabic poetry.

In "Muhammad at Mecca", by W. M. Watt, [6], pages 40, 41, there are also references that detail Muhammad's suicidal thoughts. Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and thou are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "Thou are the Prophet of God."

So before you say this is off topic know that I am using to proof to me that Christianity makes more sense. When Paul was confronted by Jesus He did fear for his life and neither did Moses at the burning bush. Paul had reason to fear, because he was bent on killing Christians that Jesus considered to be His people. Demons throw fear into people and not heavenly beings. This is an argument to show that Christianity makes more sense. Now if these stories are not true about Islam's prophet prove it to me, because they are Islamic sources. Some Muslims deny this and others accept it is true so how I am supposed to know. You haven't proven yourself dependable in your comments about Islam so who I am to believe about Islam?

[محمد سني 1989]

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I am not changing the topic. It is all about what makes more sense Christianity or Islam which is the topic of this thread, and it doesn't go against rules to bring up sub topics that support the thread title. Iit sounds to me like you are trying to make trouble for me that is not necessary. If you think I shouldn't be able to post directly and need this disadvantage, that is fine and your opinion. I don't want to hear about it any more from you, and I told you this already so you are bent on changing the topic of this thread and sticking to it after I told I will discuss it no further with you. You bait me to be off topic and then judge me when I do it, but it is all par for the course. I know you don't care what I think, but the sources I gave about your prophet's reaction on Mt. Hira is from Muslim sources. From Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106. Words in [ ] type brackets are mine. Words in ( ) brackets are the author's.

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

Can you proof this is not authentic? it is from Muslims sources is it not? Are you going to say all the things you don't like are weak oral traditions?

The "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd, translated by S. Moinal Haq, [4], page 225 has Muhammad saying:

"O Khadija, I see light and hear sounds and I fear I am mad".

The visitations from the spirit continued. Then they stopped for a time believed to have been from 6 months to 3 years. When this happened, Tabari, [5], volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himself."



Also, from Tabari Vol. 9, page 167, note 1151 says:



"The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons...."

This explains why Muhammad thought he was demon possessed, or influenced by demons; the Quran in many places reads like typical Arabic poetry.

In "Muhammad at Mecca", by W. M. Watt, [6], pages 40, 41, there are also references that detail Muhammad's suicidal thoughts. Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and thou are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "Thou are the Prophet of God."

So before you say this is off topic know that I am using to proof to me that Christianity makes more sense. When Paul was confronted by Jesus He did fear for his life and neither did Moses at the burning bush. Paul had reason to fear, because he was bent on killing Christians that Jesus considered to be His people. Demons throw fear into people and not heavenly beings. This is an argument to show that Christianity makes more sense. Now if these stories are not true about Islam's prophet prove it to me, because they are Islamic sources. Some Muslims deny this and others accept it is true so how I am supposed to know. You haven't proven yourself dependable in your comments about Islam so who I am to believe about Islam?

First of all : you need to know that not all what is in islamic sources is saheeh ( authentic )this comes from your lack of knowledge , All hadeeths are three kind: the saheeh , hasan and the daeef , the first too are accepted as authentic , the daeef is not . All the hadeeths in Bukhari and muslim are saheeh and authentic BUT the rest of the sources have BOTH authentic and non authentic hadeeths including altabari , altirmithi , sunan abudawud and so on SO IT IS ACTUALLY your lack of knowledge which shows your poor nitpicking skills

Second taking narration by narration :

(Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then)

This passage does not exist in ibn ishaq rather it is in altabary the same narration as this :

Tabari, [5], volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himself."


This narration is DAEEF NON AUTHENTIC , in its chain of transmission it contains a man named salama ibn fadl Al abrash سلمة بن فضل الابرش , both historians and hadeeth scholars declared this man's hadeeths as non authentic and he was accused by them to be a fraud. The second problem with the chain of transmission is that it ends with ubayd ibn umayr عبيد بن عمير , this man never witnessed the prophet rather he was born after the death of the prophet !!!!
Another problem with the ACTUAL narration is that it CONTRADICTS the douzins of other hadeeth which states that the prophet saw gebriel in actual not in a dream , the narration by Aisha the wife of the prophet and by jabir (one of his companions) show that the narration talked about actual sighting not dreams


The second Narration :
"Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd, translated by S. Moinal Haq, [4], page 225 has Muhammad saying:

"O Khadija, I see light and hear sounds and I fear I am mad".

The visitations from the spirit continued. Then they stopped for a time believed to have been from 6 months to 3 years. When this happened, Tabari, [5], volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himse

This narration is also non authentic Daeef , within its chain of transmission contains a man named mohammed ibn umar al waqidy محمد بن عمر الواقدي he was deemed by all scholars and historians as a liar and his commentaries and historical narration are rejected by all. He is an unreliable source
Abd Allah Ibn Ali al Madini and his father said: "Al-Waqidi has 20,000 Hadith I never heard of." And then he said: "His narration shouldn't be used" and considered it weak.
Yahya Ibn Muaen said: "Al-Waqidi said 20,000 false hadith about the prophet."
Al-Shafi'i said, "Al-Waqidi is a liar."
Ibn Hanbal said, "Al-Waqidi is a liar."
Al-Bukhari said he didn't write a single letter by Al-Waqidi. (Siar Aalam al nublaa - althagbi - biography of Al-Waqidi)

The third:Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and thou are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "Thou are the Prophet of God."

Az Zuhri's commentary is unreliable , Az Zuhri lived during the period of Abdulmalik ibn marwan , almost 100 YEARS after the death of the prophet , this commentary is his own word so it is rejected due to the 100 year gap . More importantly in is the commentary مرسل of Al Zuhri and his commentaries مرسلات are deemed unreliable by the scholars of the hadeeth to the extent that the scholars called his commentaries as like a wind it comes and goes

You still have a lot to learn :

The authentic hadeeth without the commentary of Alzury :

Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright daylight, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food likewise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
saheeh al bukhary

Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 3

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari (while talking about the period of pause in revelation) reporting the speech of the Prophet:
"While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly



saheeh Albukhary

Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 3

As you can see no so called possesion or attempt to commit suicide in these authentic narration

instead of nitpicking try to conclude some kind of historical search



Here is what the oldest

gospel said about jesus's

last words in the crusifix :

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15: 34


I do not think you can misinterperate this and you cannot say that I am insulting Jesus because we do not belive in the story of Jesus on the crusifix
This is something you are going to have to answer

[pandora]

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And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15: 34




I do not think you can misinterperate this and you cannot say that I am insulting Jesus because we do not belive in the story of Jesus on the crusifix
This is something you are going to have to answer

may I just ask you to clarify what your difficulty with this verse is? What aspect do you feel needs addressing? I am only asking so if one of us offers an answer we can be sure it's addressing your problem with this verse. Save a lot of time I feel.

Peace.

[محمد سني 1989]

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may I just ask you to clarify what your difficulty with this verse is? What aspect do you feel needs addressing? I am only asking so if one of us offers an answer we can be sure it's addressing your problem with this verse. Save a lot of time I feel.

Peace.

Sure

If the one crusified did believe that he was god or if he was in the righteous side and the messiah then why would he declare that god abandoned him???


remember that we muslims do not believe in the crusifix story
peace

[Burninglight]

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Here is what the oldest

gospel said about jesus's

last words in the crusifix :

[/FONT][/LEFT]And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15: 34


I do not think you can misinterperate this and you cannot say that I am insulting Jesus because we do not belive in the story of Jesus on the crusifix
This is something you are going to have to answer

[/COLOR]

[/FONT]

I believe Jesus said that, why is that a problem? As for the daeef not being reliable, I'll take your word for it. I haven't research it in great depth, it is just Muslim information that is out there that some Muslims accept it and some deny it. I'll take your word that Gabriel didn't call Muhammad a prophet of God on a mountain before his suicide attempt. But what is the problem with Jesus saying "Why have you forsaken me?" Remember Jesus became sin for us and a curse. God turns His back on sin, but the righteousness of Christ can be found in the church that God accepts as His bride.

[pandora]

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Sure

If the one crusified did believe that he was god or if he was in the righteous side and the messiah then why would he declare that god abandoned him???

First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. See verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:


Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.


The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles see...Matt. 15:21-28. His heart has melted within Him (verse 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (verse 15). Verses 16 to 18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.


Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. The Phoenicians developed it, and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So.. when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.


Also consider 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It is possible that at some moment on the cross when Jesus became sin on our behalf, that God the Father, in a sense, turned His back upon the Son. It says in Hab. 1:13 that God is too pure to look upon evil. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross, that God the Father...spiritually...turned away because His holiness is such that sin is an anathema to Him. At that time, the Son may have cried out. I don't know if you could imagine a feeling of desolation ... even for the shortest of moments duration what it must have been to endure separation from Gods love, something that Jesus had known and experienced as His nature from eternity. I think muslims see the idea of the crucifixion as something shameful and you do not see it as the supreme act of agape love that God demonstrated to His creation man, through His word.. Jesus.

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remember that we muslims do not believe in the crusifix story
peace

Yes, as, I am aware you do not believe it, yet have no satisfactory reason to explain it. However, I do believe it and can only answer your question from my point of view... Because I can't quite imagine any other scenario other than that which the Bible portrays. Apologies in advance if my post is not to your satisfaction.

Peace unto you.