Jesus A Prophet of GOD Muslims

[Burninglight]

It seems to me that Jesus means nothing more to a Muslim than any other prophet. In fact, they esteem their prophet Muhammad above all other prophets and human beings. We Christians see prophets and messengers as just human. THEY HAVE FAULTS LIKE ANYONE ELSE. Yes, God chose them, but those that received them and the message received the prophets reward just like the prophet. To think more of prophets than this borders on man worship. Jesus is more than a prophet, and He is not a messenger; He is the Message. When the Quran verse says God allowed Jesus to do this and that "With my permission," it is redundant. Jesus said, He does whatever the father does and without Him, He did nothing. Jesus was and is one with the father. This is not the case with all prophets some prophets disobeyed God. Moses did and Jonah did and others did. Even the Quran said that Allah found Muhammad wandering and put him of the correct path. IMHO, Muslims have so much honor, love and esteem for their prophet that it adds up to prophet worship, but they say they don't, but from where I stand it looks, feels and hints that way to me. It is no different than the Catholics worshipping Mary. The irony is Christians are against angel (messenger), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher worship. Only God, His Word, and His Spirit are worthy of worship. They are not associations or partners of God. They are God like Allah is god to the Muslim who says "we sent down the gospel & torah" Our God said, "Let us make Man...." It is a royal we and us which shows the perfect unity of the one and only God our Creator.

[فداء الرسول]

We do not need to justify to you

[Burninglight]

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We do not need to justify to you

I agree, but you have to justify it for yourself or how can you go on?

[فداء الرسول]

Don't argue with an ignorant for it will be hard for people to differentiate between you

[نصير الدين]

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I do not object to your loving Him, I just doubt you understand Him. I respect you love and honour Issa of the Quran as you know Him, I simply doubt at times it is the same person as Jesus in the Bible.

A subject for another time .

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Not every prophet was blessed with miracles some were just sent signs. We are also warned that false prophets also came with signs and wonders, so miracles alone are no guarantee that the messenger is genuine or the message from God. The miracles Moses did through God did not prove his prophecy, but his credentials as a prophet of God. (Maybe that's what you meant.. Possibly my bad ;) ) so that the people of Egypt, Pharaoh in particular would listen to his message. ..hence the plagues God sent when Pharaoh continued to block his ears.

Wait what ? Now I won't go further into prophets who only had "signs" - although I don't agree - and I'll focus on the main thing . I told you that he was born only of a mother and spoke in cradle because that was one of the miracles Allah gave him to leave no room for objection to the people of Israel . Not all of them believed of course but that's beside the point . The point is that miracles in their many forms - if you need to know what I mean , ask - are evidence of someone's prophecy . And that's how it was with the Christ peace upon him .

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Where did Prophet Mohammed ever claim HIMSELF, that he could perform miracles? What does it say in the Quran about these miracles? Or are they found in the hadiths? And before you get all rude and uppity.. Those are genuine questions because when I read the Quran it did not strike me as Prophet Mohammed claimed the ability to perform miracles. The only one was the Quran, and if that came from an angel by Allah's command where was the miracle?

I don't act "rude" in standard cases . But let's be honest , when you and burnlight insisted on the claim that "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" in addition to him distracting the subject all the time - and I can count at least 5 unrelated subjects he forced in - , all of that is really irritating . I could understand if you said "Islam is wrong in saying that the people of the books corrupted them" though . Even here , we're presenting the Islamic prespective , and he's forcing his prespective ! But when someone asks , we answer while following the orders in this sign :

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16:125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

And to answer your quesiton , no , the prophet peace upon him can't perform miracles of his own . No prophet ever claimed he can perform miracles of his own . It is all by the will of Allah . So whoever gave you this idea was misinformed .

Still , the prophet peace upon him did have miracles and the first and most important is Quran itself which astonished all the experts of literature and everyone failed to rival it . Other ones are mentioned in the narrations .

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And you clearly do not see the problem with it.. No surprise there either! Only God the father creates life, all creation is by His hands, Jesus raised the dead..(which is not the same as creating life from nothing... Or clay) He healed the sick, He made the blind see.. And cast out demons.. These were a few examples of the hundreds of recorded miracles attributed to Him.. This He did by will of the father. By having Jesus create life in inanimate clay birds is tantamount to admitting Jesus has the powers of God. Not a problem for us, but maybe one for yourselves. We know the world and all in it was made by Him and for Him... Gods eternal Word.. Jesus Christ.

And how can you understand from the sign that the Christ poured life into that clay HIMSELF ? Now come one ! I even underlined the related parts ! It is all by the will and power of Allah . In Islam , Christ peace upon him didn't do all of those on his own . That's the same with all the other prophets .

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We will continue to love and honour the prophets each according to our beliefs. That's good enough for me. We do not see prophets in the same way, but that is no barrier to love or respect due upon their persons.

Great !! We agree on something !

[Burninglight]

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Don't argue with an ignorant for it will be hard for people to differentiate between you

I assume you are referring to me, but there is a cure for ignorance, but not for willful ignorance. I have brought up good points that you haven't addressed nor have you been able to prove ignorance on my part; yet, you call me "ignorant." Kindly, tell me what I am ignorant about and believe me when I say there are clear differences between us whether you argue your case or not.

Peace to you, and may you come to know the truth.

[pandora]

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A subject for another time .

If you say so.

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Wait what ? Now I won't go further into prophets who only had "signs" - although I don't agree - and I'll focus on the main thing . I told you that he was born only of a mother and spoke in cradle because that was one of the miracles Allah gave him to leave no room for objection to the people of Israel . Not all of them believed of course but that's beside the point . The point is that miracles in their many forms - if you need to know what I mean , ask - are evidence of someone's prophecy . And that's how it was with the Christ peace upon him .

Why was it necessary for Jesus to speak from the cradle? Was being born of a virgin not miracle enough?? For me personally the annunciation by Angel Gabriel was proof enough of Jesus status. The only reason that Jesus appears to speak from the cradle.. Was to somehow clear His mother Mary of calumny of those who would accuse her of being unchaste. Which as Mary had God with her for protection it was not necessary for the baby Jesus to speak thus.

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I don't act "rude" in standard cases . But let's be honest , when you and burnlight insisted on the claim that "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" in addition to him distracting the subject all the time - and I can count at least 5 unrelated subjects he forced in - , all of that is really irritating . I could understand if you said "Islam is wrong in saying that the people of the books corrupted them" though . Even here , we're presenting the Islamic prespective , and he's forcing his prespective ! But when someone asks , we answer while following the orders in this sign :

Ok! then I think Islam is wrong saying the people of the book corrupted their scriptures.. I find the verses from the Quran you claim backs up this view you have to ambiguous to be taken as cast iron proof of such a claim. I have asked various members at various times to bring forth the "proof" one member at least claimed to have at his fingertips.. Which was who corrupted the scripture? When was it done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God? The last point.. Given the promised punishments that would befall any who altered Gods word. No evidence was forth coming. How I don't feel it unreasonable to expect some kind of proof of this sort... If one only has otherwise ambiguity and supposition.

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And to answer your quesiton , no , the prophet peace upon him can't perform miracles of his own . No prophet ever claimed he can perform miracles of his own . It is all by the will of Allah . So whoever gave you this idea was misinformed .

well.. That's a given. Why would you suppose otherwise? Prophets are just men.. They are tools of God. However.. I wonder if prophet Mohammed would acknowledge the miracles attributed to him today by muslims?

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Still , the prophet peace upon him did have miracles and the first and most important is Quran itself which astonished all the experts of literature and everyone failed to rival it . Other ones are mentioned in the narrations .

I have heard it said that the Quran was in fact the only miracle Prophet Mohammed claimed for himself. I'm not sure how it seen as miracle.. But you do so that is fine.

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And how can you understand from the sign that the Christ poured life into that clay HIMSELF ? Now come one ! I even underlined the related parts ! It is all by the will and power of Allah . In Islam , Christ peace upon him didn't do all of those on his own . That's the same with all the other prophets .

Firstly, I cannot accept the "clay birds" can be attributed to Jesus at all. Due to the same reason as the "talking from the cradle".. It has dubious provenance and there is no evidence that it could be attributed to Jesus. Out of the hundreds of miracles Jesus performed during relatively short lifetime, the clay birds has absolutely no sound reasoning behind it, no lesson to be learnt, no benefit to anyone. It seems nothing more than a party trick.. And one thing the miracles of Lord Jesus were NOT.. Were party tricks. It just does not fit.

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Great !! We agree on something !

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See... It is possible at times to find common ground. For those times we cannot agree need not be cause for strife or bad feeling for either party. I accept not everyone shares my view.. I'm cool with that. Doesn't mean my view is not truth or valid.. Same goes for you and yours.

peace to you from me.

[Burninglight]

I'll say this as simple as I know how. When Muslims say Jesus is a prophet, we agree, but Jesus is more than just a prophet. When someone knows Jesus personally like the great apostle Paul and Christians that follow in his steps, they know Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. We know that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate; therefore, He is eternal and uncreated. Paul was knocked off his horse by the Word of God and the Word of God spoke to Paul and told him what he should do. He was faithful to the heavenly vision, but Muslims slander him.
The Quran tells us to stand on the word that has been revealed to us; for we can do No other. We Christians are doing what is right, holy and the will of God by sharing Jesus is the truth and the only truth we will ever know. To Him be glory, honor and praise forever. Christians admit that they (We) love and worship Jesus.

Muslim deny that they worship Muhammad but their actions, reactions and comments about their prophet tell a very different story to the objective viewer. They even associate his name with their god Allah in the second part of the shahada, and are taught to obey him in all things as you would Allah. That IMHO, exalts him as high as deity only you say the is not worshipped as deity. Giving a lame response such as we don't have to justify to you or don't talk to an ignorant is just another way of putting your head in the sand. If you are happy with it, that is your business, but you can never accuse me of not telling you who the truth" Is, I am, was, Will be, and Be. Why don't you know Him, and how can you say you love who you don't know? Please answer.

Peace be unto you!

[نصير الدين]

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Why was it necessary for Jesus to speak from the cradle? Was being born of a virgin not miracle enough?? For me personally the annunciation by Angel Gabriel was proof enough of Jesus status. The only reason that Jesus appears to speak from the cradle.. Was to somehow clear His mother Mary of calumny of those who would accuse her of being unchaste. Which as Mary had God with her for protection it was not necessary for the baby Jesus to speak thus.

When it comes to the will of Allah , this sign is enough :

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21:23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

And I have the feeling there are appearant reasons for Christ peace upon him to speak in cradle other than being a miracle and clearing his mother's name . One is that the stubborn won't believe he was actually born of a virgin and will claim things or that he's not her child . As for other reasons , I let that to who knows better than I do . And what exactly do you mean by Jibreel annuciating Christ peace upon them ?

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Ok! then I think Islam is wrong saying the people of the book corrupted their scriptures.. I find the verses from the Quran you claim backs up this view you have to ambiguous to be taken as cast iron proof of such a claim.

Fianlly !

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I have asked various members at various times to bring forth the "proof" one member at least claimed to have at his fingertips.. Which was who corrupted the scripture? When was it done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God? The last point.. Given the promised punishments that would befall any who altered Gods word. No evidence was forth coming. How I don't feel it unreasonable to expect some kind of proof of this sort... If one only has otherwise ambiguity and supposition.

I am no expert when it comes to this subject to be honest . But what on Earth do these questions have to do with the matter ? Do we need to know who corrupted the Bible and when and how and why to know that it was ? If I see something altered from its origin , I don't need to know who did it to know that it's altered . That's to clear it up .

Secondly , would you take it as proof that there are different versions - not translations - of the Bible today and before in history ? Or that there are Christians who admit the original scriptures are lost ? These are points to go from . But as said , I'm no expert and thus I won't talk about something I don't know as if I do .

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well.. That's a given. Why would you suppose otherwise? Prophets are just men.. They are tools of God. However.. I wonder if prophet Mohammed would acknowledge the miracles attributed to him today by muslims?

First , we don't attribute them to HIMSELF . Secondly , we're not the ones who "attribute" them , there are countless narrations about miracles happening at his time by the will of Allah . That's because Sunnah is the second source of revelation after Quran . Not to mention how accurate it is narrated to the digree of knowing every single man in the chain .

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I have heard it said that the Quran was in fact the only miracle Prophet Mohammed claimed for himself. I'm not sure how it seen as miracle.. But you do so that is fine.

You heard wrong . Truely , the main miracle of the prophet peace upon him was the noble Quran . The main one for Moses was the staff turning into a snake and the hand shining . The main ones for Christ were the birth from a virgin and speaking in cradle . Peace upon them all . However , there are other miracles as well . Moses had the plagues which directed to Pharoh and his people and how they were lifted after him asking Allah . Christ had curing the ill and reviving the dead and others . Muhammad had the splitting of the moon , the crying log , satisfying large groups of people with little food , and others . Peace upon them all .

As for the noble Quran , it is a miracle in that no one can rival its eloquence . Narrations and history records tell about many who admitted it is unrivaled or some who tried to only to admit later that it is impossible . Romans and Persians had spies in the Arabian lands and would know on the spot if someone succeeded but they didn't . That's so no one makes the lame claim of "of course the barbaric Muslims would kill anyone who does" as if they had the power to do so - they didn't because no one did - when htey were oppressed in Makkah for 10 years !

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Firstly, I cannot accept the "clay birds" can be attributed to Jesus at all. Due to the same reason as the "talking from the cradle".. It has dubious provenance and there is no evidence that it could be attributed to Jesus. Out of the hundreds of miracles Jesus performed during relatively short lifetime, the clay birds has absolutely no sound reasoning behind it, no lesson to be learnt, no benefit to anyone. It seems nothing more than a party trick.. And one thing the miracles of Lord Jesus were NOT.. Were party tricks. It just does not fit.

With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .

Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?

[pandora]

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When it comes to the will of Allah , this sign is enough :

We are told to question everything. That way we know the truth gained is a truth to hold on to.

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And I have the feeling there are appearant reasons for Christ peace upon him to speak in cradle other than being a miracle and clearing his mother's name . One is that the stubborn won't believe he was actually born of a virgin and will claim things or that he's not her child . As for other reasons , I let that to who knows better than I do . And what exactly do you mean by Jibreel annuciating Christ peace upon them ?

This sounds as if you do not fully understand the meaning of this miracle, because you have never been told there was a definitive reason for it. The biblical miracles by some of the prophets and Jesus always had a message to convey. Miracles were a special gift from God, they were not given on a whim but only to convey something of importance. They had to in some way benefit mankind.

Gabriel .. Announcing the birth of Jesus.. Thus.~

Luke 1:26-38


The Birth of Jesus Foretold


26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”


29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”


34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”


35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”


38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Mary's cousin Elizabeth was the mother of John the Baptist, in case you didn't know. It is known that John the Baptist knew and foretold of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah. He knew this because he was blessed with this knowledge from God whilst still in the womb..

Luke 1:39-44
Mary Visits Elizabeth


39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

This for me at least is a far more satisfying account of the importance of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel announcing the birth negates the necessity for Jesus as a baby talking from his cradle. This I believe is the same Angel that brought revelation to Prophet Mohammed. You may wonder why Gabriel told a different story... Seeing as the same account or very similar was already in circulation. I know it make me wonder.

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Fianlly !

Lol... :)

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I am no expert when it comes to this subject to be honest . But what on Earth do these questions have to do with the matter ? Do we need to know who corrupted the Bible and when and how and why to know that it was ? If I see something altered from its origin , I don't need to know who did it to know that it's altered . That's to clear it up .

Secondly , would you take it as proof that there are different versions - not translations - of the Bible today and before in history ? Or that there are Christians who admit the original scriptures are lost ? These are points to go from . But as said , I'm no expert and thus I won't talk about something I don't know as if I do .

Well.. For sure this has been discussed before. I never got answers to my questions.. I took that to mean no one had the answers. This may not matter to you, because you have already decided that the Bible has to be corrupted and it's message changed, to be otherwise lends difficulties to the Quran. However.. These allegations are levelled at my Holy Book, the Bible which I hold in the highest esteem as Gods inspired scripture. As I am led to believe that none can change Gods word, then I don't feel it unreasonable to ask for evidence of this crime.. Because be in no doubt crime it is... The most heinous of crimes imaginable because it is against God Himself. If a person is accused of a crime in a court of law evidence is submitted before a considered judgement and sentence is decided. Why should I settle for less.. When Gods very message is at stake and being brought into question. You are the ones making the claims of corruption then you should provide the evidence. If you have none.. Then the claims you make are baseless.

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First , we don't attribute them to HIMSELF . Secondly , we're not the ones who "attribute" them , there are countless narrations about miracles happening at his time by the will of Allah . That's because Sunnah is the second source of revelation after Quran . Not to mention how accurate it is narrated to the digree of knowing every single man in the chain .

are you saying the Sunnah is also of divine origin?

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You heard wrong . Truely , the main miracle of the prophet peace upon him was the noble Quran . The main one for Moses was the staff turning into a snake and the hand shining . The main ones for Christ were the birth from a virgin and speaking in cradle . Peace upon them all . However , there are other miracles as well . Moses had the plagues which directed to Pharoh and his people and how they were lifted after him asking Allah . Christ had curing the ill and reviving the dead and others . Muhammad had the splitting of the moon , the crying log , satisfying large groups of people with little food , and others . Peace upon them all .

do you know why Moses staff was turned into a snake? God sent the plagues on Egypt.. For a reason. What reason does the Quran give for the plagues on Egypt please? What reason do you see for miracles like splitting the moon and a crying log? I can see the food multiplication has good cause and is of benefit.. I do not see reason behind the moon and the log.

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As for the noble Quran , it is a miracle in that no one can rival its eloquence . Narrations and history records tell about many who admitted it is unrivaled or some who tried to only to admit later that it is impossible . Romans and Persians had spies in the Arabian lands and would know on the spot if someone succeeded but they didn't . That's so no one makes the lame claim of "of course the barbaric Muslims would kill anyone who does" as if they had the power to do so - they didn't because no one did - when htey were oppressed in Makkah for 10 years !

I don't think I can comment on this.

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With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .

not suspicious.. But I guess I'm judging by the criteria we are given in the Bible for miracles and applying it to the Quran. Which is wrong of me. Maybe you do not need miracles to be nothing more than be proof of prophethood.

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Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?

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No, I don't believe either of these miracles can be attributed to Jesus, I don't know of any Christian that would think they were. If you want to know I can explain why in more detail... But I have already touched on this in another thread so maybe it is enough that you believe it.. I don't.. Leave it there.. :)

Peace upon you.