The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

[pandora]

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Can you be more specific or give an example ?

Constant misuse of scripture used out of context. The picking and choosing of Bible verses that would seem at face value to support your claim.. Again..not bothering with the context. The continued insult to Jesus by the term used son of Mary. Although one Muslim in the past did have the good grace to say he would use another title in regards to Jesus when in dialogue with me. Poorly thought out titles for threads, which shows a serious lack of knowledge on the topic chosen... Which does not bode well for any dialogue. The demands to respect all muslims and Islam when the same respect is not reciprocated.... I could go on.. But I think you get the point.

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Well that's an issue from our point of view and I believe this is a good point to start from . But I'll leave that to my brothers and sisters who know more .

It may be an issue for yourselves... But not so for a Christian.. However, when we take the trouble to compose a post in reply to explain why we see things thus and why it makes perfect sense and is supported by scripture. No notice is taken.

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Who told you we claim they are sinless ?! The prophet peace upon him said :


And that includes the prophets as well . However , prophets never commit major sins known as "Kaba'ir" and if they make even the slightest mistake due to their human nature , they are informed of that mistake by Allah as in the story of prophet Muhammad peace upon him and the blind man . And they might do something wrong but it is not intentional as what happened with Musa peace upon him when he killed a man .

Member ...http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/members/129019.html ... In post 19 above made the following claim..

****No that is not true , prophets in he quran are immune to sin , no where are they portrayed a the bible portrays them****

It is not the first time I have heard muslims make the claim that prophets were sinless. As being immune to sin implies it is not possible for one to sin... Ergo ..sinless. As for major and minor sins or sins being regarded as mistakes I do not see that a possibility for various reasons. from a biblical perspective we are told that ALL sin is an affront to God. Whereas sins may well vary in degrees .. A sin is a sin before God. Any action that goes against Gods Holy law is disobedience before God, weather it be theft, pride, lust, adultery, greed or murder... If God has decreed a man must not break His divine laws and man goes ahead and breaks them... then man is disobedient. All sin is basically disobedience against God. Adam and Eve were banished and punished for their disobedience against God to the extent it had lasting repercussions for man. So we know the importance God places on sin. By viewing some minor sins as mere mistakes is dangerous indeed, It's not for man to decide what is sin and what is mistake. I do not think Islam stresses the importance of sin or it's effect on mankind and a Holy God.

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Not you . The words of Burnlight imply this . But maybe I'm wrong and thus I didn't say it's certain .

Fair enough, though I cannot speak for Burninglight I would doubt he would imply such. We know Prophets were men and women and as such were sinners and thus believe that the Bible gives an honest portrayal of the Prophets.

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Because we differ in the essential basics . Prophets are the best of humans whom Allah chose to deliver his message . Would Allah really choose sinners who commit severe sins and even turn to worship idols ? A sign of Quran appears in my mind now :

We may differ in the essential basics as you say, but our reasons for our belief is every bit as valid as your own. I see the Bibles view perfectly consistent. Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet? God see into the heart of the pure and the sinner. Jesus taught he was not come for the righteous but for the sinners.. The righteous man is already attuned to God it's the sinner I need of redemption that is in greater need. We know that all can be saved by Gods grace and the worse sinner can be redeemed through Gods grace and mercy and become a righteous person. I see this as a greater example.. Because if we are all sinners if even a prophet who sins and finds forgiveness through God... And that's what the Bible shows by its honest portrayal of the prophets.. Then we can see that we too may be saved if we too can be repentant and go onto live a righteous life in God.

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If the messenger himself cannot be trusted , how do we trust the message ? That's the point in need of discussing . On the contrary in Islam , honesty of a narrator is one of the conditions to accept a narration .

By supreme faith in God, that God's choice is always better than our own. We can be fooled by a hypocrite or an evil person masquerading as good. God cannot.

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What happened or what did he do to get banned ?

You can see for yourself under the thread.. Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity... Posts 81 and 87 the use of the word ignorant was seen as an insult. Which seeing everyone is ignorant of something as we all cannot know everything is not really an insult in the true sense of the term. I don't believe it was meant as such.. But maybe Burninglight did not realise the depth of Muslim sensibilities on such a matter. I feel a warning would have been more appropriate and at least a chance to offer an apology. Everyone should be offered the chance of making amends I feel. As for insulting a Muslim member well... Insults were not one way and on balance it seemed Burninglight was at the receiving end of harsher insults.. But again there was no castigation of the muslim member involved.. Which I feel looks unfair and if you are representing your religion of Islam... It's not good. As for the moderators remarks in posts 83 and 84... Sorry I feel they are out of order! I don't mean this as a personal affront on anyone (your forum your rules) but you asked and I am answering as I see things which obviously will not be the same as you and other muslims members will likely see things.. :)

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Just a personal side comment : I find that hilarious to here honestly . You could discuss the evidence for Islam and Christianity later if you want but I suggest to finish this matter first .

It's already been discussed and Islam has not been proven to me from the evidence and the manner with which it has been presented.

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So , after all those months , you STILL don't agree with the shining clear signs and narrations saying the people of the book altered the message ? Well then , evidence for corruption is another subject we should keep in mind and it might be better to include it in the discussion of evidence for Islam and Christianity .

The signs may be shining clear to you but they certainly are not to me. For the evidence so far presented is rather ambiguous claims about some Jews changing some scripture for personal gain. If indeed the Torah was corrupted to such an extent that a new message was needed one would need greater evidence than a few rather ambiguous verses. As for the injil you claim was given to Jesus, but of which there is not a shred of evidence in the world today to show it ever existed. What can one say on that? Over and above that.. Such a claims requires me to believe that God either chose not to protect His message from change by His creation or was unable to do so. Both scenarios are unacceptable with the view I hold of God being all powerful and the creator of all we are and all we can ever be. Then we have muslims taking from the Bible... A work they believe to be corrupt.. Validation of Prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the corrupt Scriptures you spend your lives proving false! That makes no sense. Because if I thought and of the Bible was corrupt I would not believe any of it... For you have no way of knowing what was changed and what was not.. Without proof... Which you do not have.

[/QUOTE]

Peace unto you.

[نصير الدين]

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Constant misuse of scripture used out of context.

While it might happen sometimes unintentionally or out of ignorance of some members - not meant as an insult - , I doubt it's "constan" . Still , you'll probably claim the same about Islam and that you don't quote a thing out of context and that will go forever . The place for that is a discussion or a debate if you want .

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The continued insult to Jesus by the term used son of Mary. Although one Muslim in the past did have the good grace to say he would use another title in regards to Jesus when in dialogue with me.

Forgotten me alrady , Pandora ? And for the record , it is the noble Quran who calls him so . We don't just that title to anger you or whatever it is some might think .

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Poorly thought out titles for threads, which shows a serious lack of knowledge on the topic chosen

Maybe . But if someone wasn't succesful to choose an accurate title , why don't you just focus on the actual thread ?

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The demands to respect all muslims and Islam when the same respect is not reciprocated....

Personally , I could handle insults against me to a degree . What I can NEVER tolerate is insults to Allah , Islam , the prophets peace upon them , the companions of the prophet , and others . And while it might be a nature of humans to be somewhat biased in favor of the ones they know , you should remind everyone in case you were offended .

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Member ...http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/members/129019.html ... In post 19 above made the following claim..

****No that is not true , prophets in he quran are immune to sin , no where are they portrayed a the bible portrays them****

Pandora , I believe you realize that I'm - don't mean to be arrogant - am the best among us Muslim members when it comes to English . That's because it's not our native language . So it is to be expected that choices of words are not always accurate . And I explained to you .

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from a biblical perspective ...

Stop right there . You said it . It's from Bibilical prespective . One we don't believe in . And did you read what I wrote properly ? Prophets don't sin WHILE THEY KNOW . They make mistakes . That's different . No prophet would disobey Allah knowing he is with his full will . If they do commit a sin , they ask Allah forgivness and leave it immediately . That's if we agree that they are "sins" .

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By viewing some minor sins as mere mistakes is dangerous indeed, It's not for man to decide what is sin and what is mistake.

Are you telling me that a man killing another "by mistake" is the same as one who kills "intentionally" ? THAT'S dangerous .

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I do not think Islam stresses the importance of sin or it's effect on mankind and a Holy God.

Well I'll be honest , what you think is dead wrong . Indeed , one shouldn't look at the size of his sin but at WHOM he disobeyed . Still , that doesn't mean there isn't a difference . Thus Allah says :

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68:35 Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals?

And that brings a question I've been meaning to ask : In case you don't believe anyone who disbelieves in Christianity is destined to hell , where is you talk about how sins are all the same agains God ? And in case you object on hell as told by Islam , where is it that yo usay God is who decides what sins are ?

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Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet?

I won't sweet talk , Pandora . We're talking common sense here . We're talking about the greatest messages from the almighty to mankind . You yourself wouldn't just give important items to just anyone to deliver them so how on Earth can you say such a thing about THE most important message ever ? We're not talking about mere mistakes or flukes . We're talking about people you claim have killed souls with no right to , commited adultery and incest , and turned OUTRIGHT DISBELIEVERS . HOW on Earth are they any good to deliver such a message ? In Islam , a prophet NEVER lies or makes mistakes when it comes to the message , it's not the same with you . If we can't trust the messenger , why should we trust the message ? Faith ? Well I'll be honest and say that you should start relying on other than lone faith for your belief .

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We can be fooled by a hypocrite or an evil person masquerading as good. God cannot.

And why should I believe that YOUR belief about God is right ? Don't mean to be rude , but if all that is you rely on is mere faith , there's no point making any arguments or discussions at all .

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You can see for yourself under the thread.. Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity... Posts 81 and 87 the use of the word ignorant was seen as an insult. Which seeing everyone is ignorant of something as we all cannot know everything is not really an insult in the true sense of the term. I don't believe it was meant as such.. But maybe Burninglight did not realise the depth of Muslim sensibilities on such a matter. I feel a warning would have been more appropriate and at least a chance to offer an apology. Everyone should be offered the chance of making amends I feel.

While he could have used a word that isn't easily seen as an insult - "ignorance" can be you know - , if the case is the same as you described , perhaps he should have recieved a warning indeed .

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As for insulting a Muslim member well... Insults were not one way and on balance it seemed Burninglight was at the receiving end of harsher insults..

Let us be honest Pandora , you've seen Burnlight's method of arguments and how he completely ignores critical matters of the discussion and how he simply LOVES to flood the thread with ANY and EVERY allegation he has about Islam no matter how much unrelated it is . Aside from being against the rules of any respectful forum , it hinders conversations from going any further and wastes everyone's time . You didn't see anyone saying such a thing about you , right ? The point is , patience has limits . And while it isn't right to bash him as you describe , making hidden insults and constantly slandering Islam and what's holy in it isn't something we take lightly . As I said , you should complain and state that someone is offending you if that happens because sometimes we may not maintain complete neutrality .

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Which I feel looks unfair and if you are representing your religion of Islam... It's not good.

No one I know of claims to completely represent Islam .

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It's already been discussed and Islam has not been proven to me from the evidence and the manner with which it has been presented.

18:29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.

And please spare us the complaining about the torture part .

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The signs may be shining clear to you but they certainly are not to me.

If we would just accept such a statement from whoever and whenever , we should agree with those who say they think circles are squares ! There are things where disagreeing isn't an option and where one side is ABSOLUTELY wrong . You won't believe it if someone brought you quotes as simple as "If A then B" , you won't believe it if you're told that the entire body of Muslims understands this simple fact , you won't even believe it if CHRISTIANS understand this simple fact . So what am I to do with you if you don't want to understand ?!

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Such a claims requires me to believe that God either chose not to protect His message from change by His creation or was unable to do so. Both scenarios are unacceptable with the view I hold of God being all powerful and the creator of all we are and all we can ever be.

With all those claims of weakness and need you have about Allah in the Bible , you contradict yourself here . And for the gazillion time , Allah entrusted the people of the book with the message and they altered it . It's not that he couldn't - exalted he is ! - precieve the message . It is all in his knowledge . And if you dare object , I'll remind you of you - or was it Burnlight - answering the issue of Jacob peace upon him - as you claim - FIGHTING with Allah and actually DEFEATING HIM with "It was in his planning and knowledge" .

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Then we have muslims taking from the Bible... A work they believe to be corrupt.. Validation of Prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the corrupt Scriptures you spend your lives proving false!

Sometimes , you guys miss the point to almost annoying degrees . And repeating things over and over and over only for you to make the same question over and over and over is really frustrating .

YES . We believe the message was corrupted and altered . Whoever said the ENTIRE message was changed ?! Whoever said there isn't truth remaining which matches Quran ? It is you who have an issue with such scriptures and not us .

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Because if I thought and of the Bible was corrupt I would not believe any of it... For you have no way of knowing what was changed and what was not..

We DO have a way to know what was altered . That is Islam and what it teaches . You'll ask : Why do I believe in Islam ? And that's where I tell you we believe it through proof . If you ask what that proof is , that's what debates are made for .

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Without proof... Which you do not have.

Well I say we do have proof . Care to discuss it ? Not with me though cause college is fiendishly draining .

[pandora]

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While it might happen sometimes unintentionally or out of ignorance of some members - not meant as an insult - , I doubt it's "constan" . Still , you'll probably claim the same about Islam and that you don't quote a thing out of context and that will go forever . The place for that is a discussion or a debate if you want .

I do so hope it is not meant as insult.. But I confess I find it tiresome at times. If I do ever quote anything about Islam out of context I would not object.. And would indeed expect to be corrected. I would hope that could be done with courtesy and politeness which unfortunately is not always the case. I don't claim to be an expert on the theology of the Bible and don't consider myself a scholar and in regards to the Quran even less so. Some here complain my responses tend to be emotional rather than logical... Well.. That is me I'm afraid I feel my faith strongly and I live my life in the shadow of God and seek as best I can to do His will. It doesn't mean I always get things right.

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Forgotten me alrady , Pandora ? And for the record , it is the noble Quran who calls him so . We don't just that title to anger you or whatever it is some might think .

Well, hello friend. :) obviously I did not forget you because I remembered well your graciousness.. I just did not recognise your user name. Forgive me please... As I also do not remember the English translation of your name I believe you once shared. :) I'm sure it is not done to cause anger.. Besides such things do not cause be anger, I am not moved to anger easily, I find it is a destructive emotion I try to avoid. I am human and do get offended though. The fact that Jesus is referred to thus in the Quran itself, I confess give me further cause of doubt.

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Maybe . But if someone wasn't succesful to choose an accurate title , why don't you just focus on the actual thread ?

Point taken... however usually when a topic is misnamed it tends to follow that the same misconceptions make up the thrust of the debate.... It then tends to follow the trend set. Note to self... Must try harder.

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Personally , I could handle insults against me to a degree . What I can NEVER tolerate is insults to Allah , Islam , the prophets peace upon them , the companions of the prophet , and others . And while it might be a nature of humans to be somewhat biased in favor of the ones they know , you should remind everyone in case you were offended .

Let me be clear on this point. Personal insults against my person, although unpleasant, do not bother me much. I consider myself adult and can rise above such trivia. Like yourself, I am offended by insults to God... Jesus... The Holy Spirit and The prophets. However, I also understand that my offence on such matters does not mean anything to God. God does not need my defence and in fact any anger I may personally display as a result of such offence removes me a step away from my God. I don't like that. I believe my tolerance shown in the face of adversity is more pleasing to God than any display of anger. However... Some people do sorely test one to the limits.... ..

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Pandora , I believe you realize that I'm - don't mean to be arrogant - am the best among us Muslim members when it comes to English . That's because it's not our native language . So it is to be expected that choices of words are not always accurate . And I explained to you .

I see your language skills are admirable when it comes to English. I am impressed with the Arabic members who frequent this particular forum command of the English language ... Certainly superior to my Arabic :) I confer that maybe the wrong words are sometimes used. Although I would just add, I have had heard the claim that prophets being viewed as sinless before from other muslims not on this forum. Yet, it has to be said not every Muslim is as knowledgeable about their faith as they believe themselves to be.. This also goes for Christians also... It sometimes amazes me what some Christians say at times!

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Stop right there . You said it . It's from Bibilical prespective . One we don't believe in . And did you read what I wrote properly ? Prophets don't sin WHILE THEY KNOW . They make mistakes . That's different . No prophet would disobey Allah knowing he is with his full will . If they do commit a sin , they ask Allah forgivness and leave it immediately . That's if we agree that they are "sins" .

how does that work...? If a prophet knows what is a sin but sins regardless.. How then is it a mistake? Is it possible a chosen prophet does not have the knowledge from God of what God sees as a sin? Why would God not arm the prophets with this knowledge and so the problem of sin is avoided? Do you believe that God allows the burden of sin upon some more than others?

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Are you telling me that a man killing another "by mistake" is the same as one who kills "intentionally" ? THAT'S dangerous .

You miss the point. The sin is taking the life of another... In any circumstance if it is against Gods holy law. As God is both merciful and just we know the punishment will fit the crime.. So to speak..if all sin is an anathema to a Holy God then it has to be all sin.. Basically all sin comes down to disobedience against God, for which a penalty has to be paid. You are happy maintaining that God can just forgive sin.. Just like that.. No penalty. I don't see that can be just.

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Well I'll be honest , what you think is dead wrong . Indeed , one shouldn't look at the size of his sin but at WHOM he disobeyed . Still , that doesn't mean there isn't a difference . Thus Allah says :

whom he disobeyed? Surely in the case of sin it is God who has been disobeyed... On that basis God decides the penalty.

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And that brings a question I've been meaning to ask : In case you don't believe anyone who disbelieves in Christianity is destined to hell , where is you talk about how sins are all the same agains God ? And in case you object on hell as told by Islam , where is it that yo usay God is who decides what sins are ?

Sorry... I am not understanding what you are asking here??

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I won't sweet talk , Pandora . We're talking common sense here . We're talking about the greatest messages from the almighty to mankind . You yourself wouldn't just give important items to just anyone to deliver them so how on Earth can you say such a thing about THE most important message ever ? We're not talking about mere mistakes or flukes . We're talking about people you claim have killed souls with no right to , commited adultery and incest , and turned OUTRIGHT DISBELIEVERS . HOW on Earth are they any good to deliver such a message ? In Islam , a prophet NEVER lies or makes mistakes when it comes to the message , it's not the same with you . If we can't trust the messenger , why should we trust the message ? Faith ? Well I'll be honest and say that you should start relying on other than lone faith for your belief .

Hang on a minute!! Where we accept the Bible prophets being human are prone to the same sins as we all are.. Are open to the same temptations we all are.. At no point do we see that this has any impact on their bringing a revelation from God. By seeing the prophets as some kind of super men with an immunity to sin... (Some sin at least) it's akin to worship of prophets who were plain and simple human men and women... Or in Islam case just men.. Because you appear to view them as superior to mortal men. The fact a prophet if chosen by God is enough to ensure that the revelation of that prophet is reliable. That's why we are not to believe every prophet who claims to be sent from God, and we must we must test the prophets.

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And why should I believe that YOUR belief about God is right ? Don't mean to be rude , but if all that is you rely on is mere faith , there's no point making any arguments or discussions at all .

You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable. Logic can be disproved. Biblical Christianity is not the same as your perception of Christianity. My belief in Jesus and what He taught is not the same as your belief in Isa of the Quran. I simply wish to explain... Where I see misconceptions in regards to Christianity to put the record straight.. At least as far as how I as a Christian and part of the living Gospel that is Jesus understands it.. It's you guys keep telling me what I believe... Which is very different to the Christian reality.

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While he could have used a word that isn't easily seen as an insult - "ignorance" can be you know - , if the case is the same as you described , perhaps he should have recieved a warning indeed .

Yes, agreed he could have chosen a different word... But it's possible not seeing the insult ourselves not recognising that it could be in others. That is why I feel Burninglight should have been given the chance to make amends. However, what is done is done. It is past. That we should all learn lessons from past errors goes some way to make better decisions in the future.

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Let us be honest Pandora , you've seen Burnlight's method of arguments and how he completely ignores critical matters of the discussion and how he simply LOVES to flood the thread with ANY and EVERY allegation he has about Islam no matter how much unrelated it is . Aside from being against the rules of any respectful forum , it hinders conversations from going any further and wastes everyone's time . You didn't see anyone saying such a thing about you , right ? The point is , patience has limits . And while it isn't right to bash him as you describe , making hidden insults and constantly slandering Islam and what's holy in it isn't something we take lightly . As I said , you should complain and state that someone is offending you if that happens because sometimes we may not maintain complete neutrality .

Well... We are all different and approach things differently. On occasions there is bound to be personality clashes. I'm sure my methods annoy some members also. I also strive to be respectful ... as do unto others as you would wish done unto you.. Is, I feel an important motto. On the other hand I am but human.. And at times am not perfect.... ... I know hard to believe.. But it is so. (Joke)

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No one I know of claims to completely represent Islam .

I meant in general terms.

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18:29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.

And please spare us the complaining about the torture part .

I wouldn't dream of complaining... You are free to believe what you wish...

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If we would just accept such a statement from whoever and whenever , we should agree with those who say they think circles are squares ! There are things where disagreeing isn't an option and where one side is ABSOLUTELY wrong . You won't believe it if someone brought you quotes as simple as "If A then B" , you won't believe it if you're told that the entire body of Muslims understands this simple fact , you won't even believe it if CHRISTIANS understand this simple fact . So what am I to do with you if you don't want to understand ?!

It has nothing to do with not wanting to understand. I could say the same in regards to yourself... That you have no wish to understand a Christians view of God and Christianity preferring instead to the version you have been told. My emotional head on now... I feel in my heart that what I believe is truth to be as God wishes to be known unto me. If God wishes me to follow Islam then God will make it clear to me. Am I to ignore the doubts in my heart? Ignore the glaring inconsistencies I see? Is it a muslims wish that one should follow Islam irrespective of doubts of the truth of its path and to where it leads? To what purpose??

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With all those claims of weakness and need you have about Allah in the Bible , you contradict yourself here . And for the gazillion time , Allah entrusted the people of the book with the message and they altered it . It's not that he couldn't - exalted he is ! - precieve the message . It is all in his knowledge . And if you dare object , I'll remind you of you - or was it Burnlight - answering the issue of Jacob peace upon him - as you claim - FIGHTING with Allah and actually DEFEATING HIM with "It was in his planning and knowledge" .

I'm just not buying that... Sorry it makes little sense.

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Sometimes , you guys miss the point to almost annoying degrees . And repeating things over and over and over only for you to make the same question over and over and over is really frustrating .

lol.... Here is pot calling kettle black.. :) this is the exact same roundabout I find myself on. Have you any idea how personally frustrating it is to spend an age compiling some post in reply.. Researching ... Getting out my Bible and Quran... Trying to best get the point across to be clearly understood... Only to have my answers ignored totally and told I a few posts later when the same question is asked yet again ... That I never answered the question!!!!

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YES . We believe the message was corrupted and altered . Whoever said the ENTIRE message was changed ?! Whoever said there isn't truth remaining which matches Quran ? It is you who have an issue with such scriptures and not us .

That's a tad too convenient. I have no issue with the scriptures as in the Old and New Testaments.. My issue is the Quran diametrically opposes the previous revelations but you can offer no proof what was changed, when it was changed, who changed it and why they did so?

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We DO have a way to know what was altered . That is Islam and what it teaches . You'll ask : Why do I believe in Islam ? And that's where I tell you we believe it through proof . If you ask what that proof is , that's what debates are made for .

Well... I'm yet to see this proof. I mean of Biblical corruption. For the Quran to be true the Bible has to be false, yet if the Bible is false the Quran is not what it claims to be because it claims to confirm the previous scriptures... And as the scriptures we have today are pretty much what was accepted in the 5century I'm not sure what other scriptures the Quran is claiming to confirm... If not what we have now. There is no proof of that the Torah was changed by the Jews... And given the sheer magnitude of such a fraud on the scale needed to cause change to extent of God sending a new revelation... It would be bye impossible a fraud of that scale would not go undiscovered... Unless every Jew were in agreement to change every copy of the Torah in use. Is that likely? As for the Injil.. You claim was given to Jesus.. There is absolutely no proof this ever existed. There is nothing to claim that Jesus ever wrote a thing... Indeed why would there be? Jesus was never the messenger.. Jesus was the message. The message does not write itself.

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Well I say we do have proof . Care to discuss it ? Not with me though cause college is fiendishly draining .

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To be honest... At this point in time, I have almost given up on this. As you find college fiendishly draining I am finding this stuff also rather draining... Even fiendishly so.. ;) I wish you well in your studies. This short discourse has been a pleasure apologies once more for not recognising our virtual paths had already crossed. :)

peace unto you.

[نصير الدين]

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Some here complain my responses tend to be emotional rather than logical... Well.. That is me I'm afraid I feel my faith strongly and I live my life in the shadow of God and seek as best I can to do His will. It doesn't mean I always get things right.

Then I'm afraid there's very little benefit in any discussion .

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how does that work...? If a prophet knows what is a sin but sins regardless.. How then is it a mistake?

He doesn't ! In the story of Musa peace upon him , he pooked the man to make him back off from the other and killed him while not intending to . Quran says :

28:15 And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." 19 He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

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Is it possible a chosen prophet does not have the knowledge from God of what God sees as a sin?

Wait a minute . NOW you say that the people chosen to deliver the message should be this and that ? What happened to :

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Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet?

?!

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Why would God not arm the prophets with this knowledge and so the problem of sin is avoided?

Again , it could be unintentional , out of forgetting , or something else . That's the human nature . None is perfect except Allah the almighty . That's why Quran teaches us these :

2:286 Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

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You miss the point. The sin is taking the life of another... In any circumstance if it is against Gods holy law. As God is both merciful and just we know the punishment will fit the crime.. So to speak..if all sin is an anathema to a Holy God then it has to be all sin.. Basically all sin comes down to disobedience against God, for which a penalty has to be paid.

A penalty might be there for unintentional errors . But they can NEVER be the same as intentional ones . So let me get this straight : Are you saying that if a man is driving a car and suddenly another hasty one jumps in front of him - breaking the laws of traffic - leading to the death of the second one , are you telling me that this man intended to kill the other and is the same as one who seeks to kill ? Pandora , I'm talking common sense here . If a student running in the hallway crashes on a teacher then he might be scolded or punished for not paying attention , but when a student throws eggs on a teacher's house or car then that is DEFINITELY different .

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You are happy maintaining that God can just forgive sin.. Just like that.. No penalty. I don't see that can be just.

No offense but , are you kidding me ? I still remember stating that you believe I'm destined to hell for not believing in Christianity and you said it's not the case . You're the ones who talk about loving enemies and forgiving them implying that their sins are nothing . What's up with that ?

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whom he disobeyed? Surely in the case of sin it is God who has been disobeyed... On that basis God decides the penalty.

Well what did you think I said ? Both a person talking badly - e.g badmouthing others - and a theif are disobeying Allah and that isn't something to take lightly . Still , Allah is just - along with mercy and other charecteristics - and doesn't deal with sins the same way . Thus , associating partners with Allah is the sin which he never forgives and he forgives for whomever he desires below that .

4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

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Hang on a minute!! Where we accept the Bible prophets being human are prone to the same sins as we all are.. Are open to the same temptations we all are.. At no point do we see that this has any impact on their bringing a revelation from God. By seeing the prophets as some kind of super men with an immunity to sin... (Some sin at least) it's akin to worship of prophets who were plain and simple human men and women... Or in Islam case just men.. Because you appear to view them as superior to mortal men. The fact a prophet if chosen by God is enough to ensure that the revelation of that prophet is reliable. That's why we are not to believe every prophet who claims to be sent from God, and we must we must test the prophets.

If you don't think committing severe sins , lying , and turning infidel affects dilevering the message , you have a serious issue . You're following a wrong path here . You're saying : It's God who sent those messages so they can never be altered even if the messengers - Me : Exalted is Allah and innocent they are - lie and sin greatly . Well you need to stop right there . Why on Earth would I believe it is actually a message from God and not an innovation of humans ? You skipped step one and moved directly to step two . That's a fallacy . You talk about testing a prophet and at the same time you contradict yourself by not testing him to see if the message is right .

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You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable.

Well allow me to say that blind faith holds no value . And since faith is immutable , why do you even care about preaching your religion to us who also have faith (Though ours differs of course) ?

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Logic can be disproved.

You're seriously making a number of fallacies here and there . As for this sentence of yours , what did you depend on to belief it ? Isn't that logic and sense ? You believe it's logical to rely on faith and abandon logic . Does that make sensee ? This statement crumbles on itself and implodes . And when you say that logic can be disproved , you're saying that logic can be disproved by logic and that's simply absurd ! When I say logic I don't mean science . Logic is about the possible and impossible logically - too much "logic" thus far - . For instance , it is simply impossible , no matter what "science" might say and no matter when or where we are for 1+1 to be equal of 3 . Bring Enistein , Newton , and every single scientest and non scientest soul out there and they can never disprove this for eternity . Saying basic logic can be disproved is a crime against intellect .

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Yes, agreed he could have chosen a different word... But it's possible not seeing the insult ourselves not recognising that it could be in others. That is why I feel Burninglight should have been given the chance to make amends. However, what is done is done. It is past. That we should all learn lessons from past errors goes some way to make better decisions in the future.

Hold on a second , was he banned permenantly or for a few days ?

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Am I to ignore the doubts in my heart? Ignore the glaring inconsistencies I see?

Then what are you here for ? If you don't desire to argue with evidence and discuss it then what's the point ? And don't change the subject into "You are doing it too so I won't stop" . I'm talking about signs , narrations , and a whole body of Muslims probably reaching a number of billions through history . All of that says that according to Islam , the Bible is altered . You're not saying "No , you're wrong , the Bible isn't altered" . You're saying that our religion doesn't say it is ! And believe me , repeating it over and over and OVER gets extremely frustrating . Not to mention that you base your objections on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING . If we were to discuss it , you'd just say "You don't have proof it is corrupted" . And that's a huge fallacy . We're not discussing the evidence of corruption . I'm simply telling you something as simple as that Islam says there is corruption . Another thing you might say is "Why would God let the message be altered" and that's just the same as the last fallacy . I'll be frank and say that you're solely depending on emotions here and not any sort of "inconsistencies" you claim exist . What's hilarious is that you don't show a single one of those .

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I'm just not buying that... Sorry it makes little sense.

It's so bad to the degree of ignoring your own contradiction ?! That's it ? THAT'S your argument ?! You don't "buy" it ?! You don't even try and discuss it ?!

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ol.... Here is pot calling kettle black.. :) this is the exact same roundabout I find myself on. Have you any idea how personally frustrating it is to spend an age compiling some post in reply.. Researching ... Getting out my Bible and Quran... Trying to best get the point across to be clearly understood... Only to have my answers ignored totally and told I a few posts later when the same question is asked yet again ... That I never answered the question!!!!

If that happened with other members on the forum , it is not my responsibility . Show me one , I say one instance where I don't go straight to the point . Where I don't state why I think your counter argument is wrong and rather repeat what you answered .

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That's a tad too convenient. I have no issue with the scriptures as in the Old and New Testaments.. My issue is the Quran diametrically opposes the previous revelations but you can offer no proof what was changed, when it was changed, who changed it and why they did so?

Here goes the same fallacy . We're not discussing evidence of corruption . I'm stating that Islam says there is corruption . You on the other hand say "No , your belief that your belief is there is corruption is wrong" . That's completely unrelated and a subject for another time . That's what I've been repeating over and over for months . Do you see now why it's frustrating ? I say there is corruption and you escape it with "Quran contradicts the previous message and thus it's wrong" and you COMPLETELY ignore that I JUST stated the message isn't the original one ! THAT'S where you're going astray from the critical point .

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For the Quran to be true the Bible has to be false, yet if the Bible is false the Quran is not what it claims to be because it claims to confirm the previous scriptures

Pandora , I'm still holding my nerves . Don't get me to snap . You're here talking to an imaginary person when you state a rule we don't agree on that says "Quran says the messages of the people of the book are divine and thus when it says they are not it is contradicting" . You simply ignore what we say day in day out : The messages Allah sent were altered by the people of the book but there is truth remaining in them which match Quran . Proving the Bible to be corrupt won't make a problem for anyone except Jews and Christians .

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It would be bye impossible a fraud of that scale would not go undiscovered... Unless every Jew were in agreement to change every copy of the Torah in use. Is that likely?

Since I believe in the proof of Islam , I take this by faith . That's why I'll believe that this statement of yours is false . Considering how many times I discover that what I believed with faith is true , I'll do the same here . Again , you're distracting the actual topic . Islam says the people of the book altered the message . End of the story . If you want to debate about wither than is true or not then you have this forum and many others .

[pandora]

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He doesn't ! In the story of Musa peace upon him , he pooked the man to make him back off from the other and killed him while not intending to . Quran says :

28:15 And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." 19 He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving,

Agreed.. Moses killed the man unintentionally .. The man still died. Moses knew he had sinned against God even though he knew he had not intended the death that resulted from his actions. The Bible also shows Moses hid the body before fleeing the scene.. So there is no doubt about the seriousness of the crime Moses himself believed he had done. The Quran I see brings Satan into the equation, surely giving added gravity to the situation. So God forgave Moses because Moses simply asked to be forgiven.... There and then. What of the divine justice for the unfortunate fellow killed? If we are to expect recompense through a court of law for wrongs done to us.. Should we also expect the same and better level of justice from Almighty God? That is why there has to be a penalty paid for sin.. God decides on that penalty. If God simply forgives without the need of penalty then God ceases to be just. Out of His divine love Gods justice is tempered by mercy God Himself gave us the means to become righteous in His presence.

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Is it possible a chosen prophet does not have the knowledge from God of what God sees as a sin?
Wait a minute . NOW you say that the people chosen to deliver the message should be this and that ? What happened to :

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Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet?

Stop there... I am stating a supposition here.. Not claiming a fact. I am not in any way saying a prophet should be this or that.. In fact it is Islam that claims prophets are chosen from the best of people.. The Bible maintains and Christians believe that God chooses ordinary men and women according to His divine criteria. It's the fact they are chosen makes them special not the fact they were special to begin with. The decision rests with God alone as to who is worthy of bringing revelation to mankind. As ordinary men and women they have the same sin nature as we all have, which makes it very possible at some point they will err from Gods perfect standard and sin. They are just as in need of Gods mercy and forgiveness as the rest of mankind.

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Again , it could be unintentional , out of forgetting , or something else . That's the human nature . None is perfect except Allah the almighty . That's why Quran teaches us these :

yes.. Human nature is such that we are not perfect. Yet.. God gives us His law to live by.. It's Gods standard for us that one should forget Gods commandments is a bit weak.. We surely understand the consequence of going against Gods laws .. At least the Bible is clear on the issue. Unintentional.. Well there again stuff happens as God see and knows our intentions better than we do ourselves then that would be taken into account... If God is to be just. As for the something else????

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If you don't think committing severe sins , lying , and turning infidel affects dilevering the message , you have a serious issue . You're following a wrong path here . You're saying : It's God who sent those messages so they can never be altered even if the messengers - Me : Exalted is Allah and innocent they are - lie and sin greatly . Well you need to stop right there . Why on Earth would I believe it is actually a message from God and not an innovation of humans ? You skipped step one and moved directly to step two . That's a fallacy . You talk about testing a prophet and at the same time you contradict yourself by not testing him to see if the message is right .

a true prophet of God is known by his/her fruits. Do you question Allah's wisdom in matters of choice? I certainly do not question the wisdom of YHWH when it comes to His divine choice of prophets. The Bible shows how God supports His chosen prophets, being a prophet was not an easy task as they were charged for the most part to tell people things they did not wish to know or commands they did not wish to obey.. We know the true prophet because they are consistent in their message.. Despite their personal circumstances they were steadfast in Gods work... Even when at times when they may have felt overwhelmed by the responsibility. The Spirit of God strengthens.

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Well allow me to say that blind faith holds no value . And since faith is immutable , why do you even care about preaching your religion to us who also have faith (Though ours differs of course) ?

is that what I am doing preaching my religion!!!??? I was hoping I was dispelling certain misconceptions many muslims hold about Christians and the Bible. It doesn't bother me that your faith is not the same as mine. I am grateful you at least have faith in God, in a world where so many do not. I personally may believe that you are in error on some aspects but that is to be expected and no doubt you think the same of me. As God has the final word.. What will be will be. There is nothing blind about my faith. I should think there is nothing blind about yours..

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Hold on a second , was he banned permenantly or for a few days ?

well on reading the announcement in regards to this matter. It seemed to me that it was permanent. In fact, I thought it lacked a certain professionalism in tone and delivery.. But it seemed clear enough. Shame I think.. That coupled with the new restrictions about what threads and how many threads I can participate in after all the time I've been on this forum..it's all a bit off putting. I have to confess if such actions were intended to put Christians off from contributing to the forum .. Then it's working. Only me left.. And I'm wavering.

Ill have to get back to the rest of your post another time. Stuff and things to do and tempus fugit and all that..

peace

[نصير الدين]

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Agreed.. Moses killed the man unintentionally .. The man still died. Moses knew he had sinned against God even though he knew he had not intended the death that resulted from his actions. The Bible also shows Moses hid the body before fleeing the scene.. So there is no doubt about the seriousness of the crime Moses himself believed he had done. The Quran I see brings Satan into the equation, surely giving added gravity to the situation. So God forgave Moses because Moses simply asked to be forgiven.... There and then. What of the divine justice for the unfortunate fellow killed? If we are to expect recompense through a court of law for wrongs done to us.. Should we also expect the same and better level of justice from Almighty God? That is why there has to be a penalty paid for sin.. God decides on that penalty. If God simply forgives without the need of penalty then God ceases to be just. Out of His divine love Gods justice is tempered by mercy God Himself gave us the means to become righteous in His presence.

While Atheists love to repeat the fallacy of "If God is loving then why are there diseases , quakes ... etc" , you make the fallacy of "If God is just then why ...." . What you have in common is that you forget Allah isn't only just or loving but there are many other charecteristics . Among them - in Islam - are 99 best names . So yes , there is justice but there is also mercy . In the end , we all belong to Allah and he is not questioned for what he does . He may forgive someone for a sin and then you have absolutely no right object because that is his will . If the sin include a creature then the sinner may be forgiven but the victim's rights are never lost and they will be redeemed one way or another . Your serious issue right here is that you want a sin committed by mistake with no intention to be seen as severe as being done intentionally . That's just not acceptable . What's ironic is that you talk about justice at the same time . Indeed , it feels as if this sign was directed to such statements ! :

68:35 Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? 36 What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?

And I did tell you Iblees isn't THE cause of evil . If he didn't exist , sins would have still been done . He whispers and deludes but we're still to be judged if we obey him and his followers .

And don't act like you actually care about the "fellow" who got killed . I told you a number of times before about this sign :

18:49 And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present [before them]. And your Lord does injustice to no one.

So if he doesn't get justice in this life , he'll get it in the afterlife . It might be through forgiving some of his sins or something else . What cannot happen is to treat killing him as an intentional act . That's - with all due respect - is utterly nonsense !

Allah forgave Musa peace upon him because first : like I said over and over , he didn't kill the man intentionally , and secondly : he was sincere in acknowledging his mistake and asking forgiveness . In the end , it is up to Allah and he is not questioned of what he does but we are .

And while you turned 180 degrees upside down all of a sudden and began talking about how it's unjust to forgive sins , what's all that you tell us about forgivenece and loving enemies and not judging anyone !?

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It's the fact they are chosen makes them special not the fact they were special to begin with. The decision rests with God alone as to who is worthy of bringing revelation to mankind

6:124 And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.

So if you think even the lowliest of creatures -innocent are prophets from what they describe- out there can be chosen to deliver the greatest message , that's your problem .

And for the gazillion time , the question you don't address : If I can't trust the messenger , WHY should I trust the message ? You just want me to beleive that God chose such people - according to your Bible alone - for his message without providing ANY sort of evidence for that ? Well then let's believe WHOEVER claims he is a messenger ! And don't tell me "We should test them" because I don't even believe in your standards which you take from your religion . Another critical question you don't address properly . Do you see now why you keep hearing "You didn't answer the question" ?

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a true prophet of God is known by his/her fruits

You take this rule from the Bible . WHY should I believe the Bible ?! YET AGAIN you skip step one to step two ! And what fruits ? As in his good deeds ? Prophets according to your Bible have few or no fruits . Or maybe it's the number of their followers ? Then we should believe in Buddha !

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Do you question Allah's wisdom in matters of choice?

You have gotta be kidding me . I challenge you to bring one sentence where I imply this . What I keep saying to you is that I DON'T believe what those prophets - according to the Bible only - brought is actually a message from Allah . I believe in the prophets as Quran and Sunnah describe and they're on a whole different plain from what you describe . This statement of yours would make sense if you told it to a Christian . Here's a hint : I'm not a Christian !

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We know the true prophet because they are consistent in their message

Aside from all the unrelated talk that is based on already established beliefs and not evidence , I'll just make a personal comment that I HIGHLY doubt they are consistent . There are whole books and studies about contradictions in the Bible . Sure , you'll say "There's the same about Quran" and that's why I said it's a personal comment I won't be using as an argument since I'm not expert . And by the way , if being consisting is what ditermines a prophet , go ahead and embrace Islam because you won't find a religion as consistent as it is .

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There is nothing blind about my faith.

I beg you pardon ?! Who's the one who said the following ?! :

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Some here complain my responses tend to be emotional rather than logical... Well.. That is me I'm afraid I feel my faith strongly and I live my life in the shadow of God and seek as best I can to do His will. It doesn't mean I always get things right.

And :

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You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable.

ANND :

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Logic can be disproved.

?!

And all of that centres around this part of my reply which you simply ignored :

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You're seriously making a number of fallacies here and there . As for this sentence of yours , what did you depend on to belief it ? Isn't that logic and sense ? You believe it's logical to rely on faith and abandon logic . Does that make sensee ? This statement crumbles on itself and implodes . And when you say that logic can be disproved , you're saying that logic can be disproved by logic and that's simply absurd ! When I say logic I don't mean science . Logic is about the possible and impossible logically - too much "logic" thus far - . For instance , it is simply impossible , no matter what "science" might say and no matter when or where we are for 1+1 to be equal of 3 . Bring Enistein , Newton , and every single scientest and non scientest soul out there and they can never disprove this for eternity . Saying basic logic can be disproved is a crime against intellect .

Are not YOU the one saying we should rely on faith and not logic ?!

[pandora]

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And all of that centres around this part of my reply which you simply ignored :

What is wrong with you people???? What part of ..... I'll have to get back to the rest of your post another time.... Did you not understand! As I have tried to explain before.. The device I use does not make it easy to reply to multiple points when the post in question is rather long..constantly having to scroll up and down faffing about with quotes etc.. It's possible to miss a point. Given that I have to wait until a moderator passes my post as suitable...and I am not allowed to edit my posts for errors ..then I do not know if I have missed anything until it's posted on the forum. I do not appreciate being pounced on and being accused of ignoring points. I now see in order of your replies I missed this bit.. Not intentional.. And I did not ignore it. I did not realise I had overlooked it. Before I even think of addressing your above post #26. I shall continue with the points raised not yet addressed by myself for fear of being accused of deliberately avoiding the matter....In continuation....

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You're seriously making a number of fallacies here and there . As for this sentence of yours , what did you depend on to belief it ? Isn't that logic and sense ? You believe it's logical to rely on faith and abandon logic . Does that make sensee ? This statement crumbles on itself and implodes . And when you say that logic can be disproved , you're saying that logic can be disproved by logic and that's simply absurd ! When I say logic I don't mean science . Logic is about the possible and impossible logically - too much "logic" thus far - . For instance , it is simply impossible , no matter what "science" might say and no matter when or where we are for 1+1 to be equal of 3 . Bring Enistein , Newton , and every single scientest and non scientest soul out there and they can never disprove this for eternity . Saying basic logic can be disproved is a crime against intellect .

Logic and Faith... The very notion of "faith versus reason.. Or logic" is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to logic....biblical faith and reason go well together. However, many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses. This is the biblical definition of faith... Whenever we have confidence in something that we cannot see, hear, taste, smell, or touch, we are acting upon a type of faith. All people have faith, even if it is not a saving faith in God.
People believe in laws of logic. Yet, laws of logic are not material. They are abstract and cannot be experienced by the senses. We can write down a law of logic such as the law of non-contradiction (It is impossible to have A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship.) but the sentence is only a physical representation of the law, not the law itself. When people use laws of logic, they have confidence in something they cannot actually observe with the senses... this is a type of faith. When we have confidence that the universe will operate in the future as it has in the past, we are acting on faith.. we all presume that gravity will work the same next Friday as it does today. But no one has actually observed the future. So we all believe in something that goes beyond sensory experience. From a Christian perspective, this is a very reasonable belief. God (who is beyond time) has promised us that He will uphold the universe in a consistent way. So we have a good reason for our faith in the uniformity of nature. Christian faith is not a "blind faith." It is a faith that is rationally defensible. It is logical and self-consistent. It can make sense of what we experience in the world. We don't rely on faith at the expense of logic and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to get across that we don't "demand" that evidence for our faith in God needs always to conform to mans logical laws and ideas. The Bible has many miracles recorded.. By today's logical reasoning many would choose to belief they did not happen because they were against the laws of logic as we know them. I have faith that God operates outside our notions and understanding and so have no problem accepting them as proof of God. I guess I had in mind those muslims that look to scientific facts found in the Quran as proof of its divinity.. I should have put that in the context of my post. I did not.. My bad. That's is a dangerous use of logic.. Because it's quite likely one day someone will come along and logically disprove a claim.. And where does that leave you.. In regards to your mathematical equation which I know some people use to explain the trinity.. 1+1+1=1 well I never see the point to that.. How can one measure the infinite by the finite? Surely if the infinite is a creation how can it be applied to explain the Creator? I will have to think on that one..

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Then what are you here for ? If you don't desire to argue with evidence and discuss it then what's the point ? And don't change the subject into "You are doing it too so I won't stop" . I'm talking about signs , narrations , and a whole body of Muslims probably reaching a number of billions through history . All of that says that according to Islam , the Bible is altered . You're not saying "No , you're wrong , the Bible isn't altered" . You're saying that our religion doesn't say it is ! And believe me , repeating it over and over and OVER gets extremely frustrating . Not to mention that you base your objections on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING . If we were to discuss it , you'd just say "You don't have proof it is corrupted" . And that's a huge fallacy . We're not discussing the evidence of corruption . I'm simply telling you something as simple as that Islam says there is corruption . Another thing you might say is "Why would God let the message be altered" and that's just the same as the last fallacy . I'll be frank and say that you're solely depending on emotions here and not any sort of "inconsistencies" you claim exist . What's hilarious is that you don't show a single one of those .

What are you here for? You ask.. Indeed I am beginning to wonder..I'm not sure what you expect of me here.. As a Christian I can only speak from my perspective. Your signs are truth to you.. But should I accept them on the basis that you and other muslims (number immaterial) say they are truth? When I say you are wrong to believe the Bible is corrupted I mean as a Christian I don't see as a Christian that the verses I have thus far been shown conclusively prove that the Torah was changed.. But that some Jews .. Changed some scripture.. For the own ends. Well, I don't see this as news, as Prophet Jeremiah accused the Jews of the very same thing! It is not proof that the Torah in its original state was changed. I find it strange you don't find it odd that God could not or chose not to protect His previous word from change ..thereby needing to send another message. It seems to me such a stand goes against Gods nature of being omniscient. I mean God would know the message would be changed why bother with the prophets why not cut to the chase and just send Mohammed and we'd all be Muslim. For some kind of test? To what purpose..?

I do not feel able to offer criticism on the inconsistencies in the Quran. I do not wish to cause offence, I know I am not allowed to criticise Islam on this forum. Suffice to say if I did not see the inconsistencies I would have no issue.. I do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH and I do not believe Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet any more than I believe Joseph Smith was the last prophet ... Based on the Bible, and the revelations of the prophets therein I don't see I can come to any other conclusion... Evidence I have been presented with so far has not changed my view. Let's face it they both can't be true.. We can only each decide which feels right for us.

Anyway run out of time... Tempus fugit once again.

peace.

to be continued....

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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I do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH and I do not believe Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet

Can you deny the fact that prophet Muhammad - as an arab muslim & through his ancestor Ishmael - was blessed by YHWH ???

[pandora]

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Can you deny the fact that prophet Muhammad - as an arab muslim & through his ancestor Ishmael - was blessed by YHWH ???

Why are you hijacking this thread? What has this to do with the subject? I have answered this before on the other thread... Maybe you did not read it. I do NOT deny that prophet Mohammed as an Arab was blessed by YHWH.. As all Arabs would be so blessed. I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact? Many peoples were blessed by YHWH... From prophets, Kings and nations. If you see some special connection here... I confess I do not. BTW.. Any evidence you may wish to bring in support of your claim of prophet Mohammed's ancestry would maybe better served by a new thread.. Your choice of course.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact?

Peace unto you.

This has been already discussed and proven here :

http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200780.html

you could also find the complete tree here :

http://majesticislam.wordpress.com/2...t-muhammed-as/

and here:

http://www.rasulallah.info/id27.html

Also some more chrsitian info :

http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/arabs.htm

http://www.nabataea.net/kedar.html