The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

[huria]

Again not sure what I did to warrant this angry reply, you telling me you are not angry but your words are shouting at me loool

The topic is reply to Christians who say that Quran is not like bible, and as I said earlier we share similar names of prophets but their stories are so different. I only quoted what your book says, and then you replied that you are disappointed?? So I was astonished hence my second reply.

Anyway I agree with you, no need to start side points, lets start the thread, and can I ask you to please give me a clear and honest answer, and I don’t think you are of those cut and paste but just in case no such replies please. I promise I will try to put my point politely, and respectfully. Please try to shorten your answers as much as possible unless a long clarification is needed, and we stick to the point we are discussing.

[pandora]

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Again not sure what I did to warrant this angry reply, you telling me you are not angry but your words are shouting at me loool

Huria, friend... Really it does not bode well for any future dialogue between us if you keep getting the wrong end of the stick ;)
I assure you I am not in any way angry with you and my words are just words not shouting words.. lol.. If I say I am not angry, then trust me I am not angry.

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The topic is reply to Christians who say that Quran is not like bible, and as I said earlier we share similar names of prophets but their stories are so different. I only quoted what your book says, and then you replied that you are disappointed?? So I was astonished hence my second reply.

If I say I am disappointed .. Then I am disappointed. On this occasion, on this thread my disappointment was with your good self and not your criticism of Bible. That you are entitled to do. I thought the tone of your post was juvenile and flippant. You can't really expect to be be taken seriously when you don't treat the topics seriously. You are disseminating the word of God here.. Does that not command a modicum of respect? And of course the Quran and the Bible are in no way the same.. That is where many misunderstandings stem from, because muslims judge the Bible by the same criteria they use for the Quran. It is not possible to do this in any meaningful way.

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Anyway I agree with you, no need to start side points, lets start the thread, and can I ask you to please give me a clear and honest answer, and I don’t think you are of those cut and paste but just in case no such replies please. I promise I will try to put my point politely, and respectfully. Please try to shorten your answers as much as possible unless a long clarification is needed, and we stick to the point we are discussing.

Oh, please do start the thread. I will try to make my answers as clear as possible and can promise they will always be honest. I will try to keep short, but as I am a wordy person by nature that may not be as easy.. But in general I only use as many words as I think I need to get my point across... Talking of points.. I will endeavour to stick to it. May I respectfully ask that you do the same.. So .. Then no more faffing about and get on with your proofs. Oh.. And please don't get uppity if I choose not to agree with all you say. ;)

peace to you, may God guide your efforts.

[Burninglight]

The Bible and Quran had been received in different ways. The Bible is written by men inspired by God and the Quran is a dictation from God directly, so all one needs is one discrepancy in the Quran and that renders it useless, but that is not the case with the Bible, because it is not God dictating it, but men showing how he understands the witness of God. But there are parts of the Bible that are dictations such as the ten commands and other such things like Jesus saying the two greatest commandments are love God and your neighbor as yourself. I understand from the Quran that Allah had misconceptions about what Christians believe about God's tri unity. This alone proves to me that it cannot have come from an all knowing God

[huria]

This thread is only quotes from the bible but Christians get mad reading their own book!! would you get the same reaction from a muslim if you quote Quran verses? Thank God nothing in the Quran make us feel ashamed, or want to hide.

[مجدي فوزي]

Allah had misconceptions about what Christians believe? okay , tell me what do Christians believe about God ?

[نصير الدين]

There are SERIOUS problems with the fundamental methods Pandora and Burnlight argue .

First of all Pandora , what is it that you are dissapointed for ? If we put the sarcastic title of the thread and the way it was presented aside , what is there for you to be upset about ? The point of it is mentioning a number of negative aspects ascribed to the prophets in the Bible . We don't believe in them of course but you do . So you're supposed to deny that they exist in the Bible - can't see that happening with such clear quotes - , demonstrate that they are true but NOT negative aspects , admit that they are negative aspects because - as I heard from you two MANY times - prophets are not sinless , OR admit that this can't be of a divine source .

No need to say we'll disagree with any of the three points I mentioned and make our own countering arguments but the problem here is that not even one of them was made .

As for Burnlight , I'm not sure if he's banned completely or temporally . Not sure what happened exactly but I'll trust my brothers and sisters for the time being since I know his method . When we look at his argument , if he tries to patch a place , another one is exposed ! Here he claims that the Bible isn't directly revelaed by Allah but rather by men inspired from him . Aside from the fact that there's a number of those men we don't know so far , HOW do you know that they didn't alter a thing ? Are you saying that they mentioned false things which differ from reality or what ?! If that's the case , that is a HUGE problem for Christians ! So I hope you or Pandora explain clearly . I'll repeat what I told Pandora . This thread mentions a number of negative aspects you ascribe to the prophets peace upon them . So , from what you're saying , you either don't deny that they are true and thus these negative aspects are indeed associated with the ones supposed to deliver the message - A huge problem by itself ! - or that they are not and that the writers wrote false things - intentionally or not - which differ from reality and presented them as the message of the lord . BOTH are great issues which cannot be ignored . So am I missing something ?

Don't you notice that everything you accuse Islam of actually exist in the book you believe in ? So who's throwing rocks on others while his house is made of glass ? There was a topic which title partially says "Don't object" and it lists a load of such examples but I can't seem to find it .

[نصير الدين]

Forget what I said , I found it . In English as well ! :

http://www.elforkan.com/7ewar/showth...-Do-not-object

[pandora]

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There are SERIOUS problems with the fundamental methods Pandora and Burnlight argue .

First of all Pandora , what is it that you are dissapointed for ? If we put the sarcastic title of the thread and the way it was presented aside , what is there for you to be upset about ? The point of it is mentioning a number of negative aspects ascribed to the prophets in the Bible . We don't believe in them of course but you do . So you're supposed to deny that they exist in the Bible - can't see that happening with such clear quotes - , demonstrate that they are true but NOT negative aspects , admit that they are negative aspects because - as I heard from you two MANY times - prophets are not sinless , OR admit that this can't be of a divine source .

No need to say we'll disagree with any of the three points I mentioned and make our own countering arguments but the problem here is that not even one of them was made .

As for Burnlight , I'm not sure if he's banned completely or temporally . Not sure what happened exactly but I'll trust my brothers and sisters for the time being since I know his method . When we look at his argument , if he tries to patch a place , another one is exposed ! Here he claims that the Bible isn't directly revelaed by Allah but rather by men inspired from him . Aside from the fact that there's a number of those men we don't know so far , HOW do you know that they didn't alter a thing ? Are you saying that they mentioned false things which differ from reality or what ?! If that's the case , that is a HUGE problem for Christians ! So I hope you or Pandora explain clearly . I'll repeat what I told Pandora . This thread mentions a number of negative aspects you ascribe to the prophets peace upon them . So , from what you're saying , you either don't deny that they are true and thus these negative aspects are indeed associated with the ones supposed to deliver the message - A huge problem by itself ! - or that they are not and that the writers wrote false things - intentionally or not - which differ from reality and presented them as the message of the lord . BOTH are great issues which cannot be ignored . So am I missing something ?

Don't you notice that everything you accuse Islam of actually exist in the book you believe in ? So who's throwing rocks on others while his house is made of glass ? There was a topic which title partially says "Don't object" and it lists a load of such examples but I can't seem to find it .

I don't know if my reply will be posted because I have not been granted permission to contribute to this thread. I just want to say.. I am not "upset" at all... Any personal disappointment is due to the methods employed on this forum only.. In their dealing with scripture. I have no issue at all with how the Bible portrays the prophets and I believe it is truth being as they were human and were not immune to sin. It is not a negative view... But an honest view. Besides the Biblical prophets who are acknowledged in the Quran are not portrayed as sinless, so I fail to see where your problem is. Why would I deny the accounts? I believe they are truth... Why do you see that a prophet who may on occasion lapse and sin against God would be hindered by this very human condition in delivering Gods revelation? It is the revelation the prophet brought which is divine in nature not the historical account of the actual prophet... In Christianity the message is always of paramount importance... The message itself NOT the messenger.

I cannot reply for Burninglight, and now he is unable to reply for himself... Having being banned.

I don't object to anything in the Quran because I do not accept the Quran as a revelation from God for numerous reasons. So far I have seen no proof that the Quran can indeed be a revelation from YHWH.... If it were it would not be diametrically opposed to the previous scriptures it claims to confirm. Bible corruption doesn't come into it either.. Because no conclusive proof has been produced to substantiate this claim. I can respect the Quran because you as muslims revere it as your holy scripture... I do not have to believe in it.

I have asked for for permission to start a new thread regarding the prophets.. If permission is granted I will address such queries there.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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I have no issue at all with how the Bible portrays the prophets and I believe it is truth being as they were human and were not immune to sin. It is not a negative view

But we are not talking just about any sin rather , murder, adultry , incest , arguing with god , building idols and worshipping it!!!!!!
This is in its self a negative view

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. Besides the Biblical prophets who are acknowledged in the Quran are not portrayed as sinless, so I fail to see where your problem is.

No that is not true , prophets in he quran are immune to sin , no where are they portrayed a the bible portrays them

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Why would I deny the accounts? I believe they are truth...

Because as brother نصير الدين said the problem still presents itself

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. This thread mentions a number of negative aspects you ascribe to the prophets peace upon them . So , from what you're saying , you either don't deny that they are true and thus these negative aspects are indeed associated with the ones supposed to deliver the message - A huge problem by itself ! - or that they are not and that the writers wrote false things - intentionally or not - which differ from reality and presented them as the message of the lord . BOTH are great issues which cannot be ignored

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If it were it would not be diametrically opposed to the previous scriptures it claims to confirm.

I think this has been discussed already , the verse in the Quran talks about the Original Torah and gospel which have been revieled to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them not the one the jews and christians manipulated

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Bible corruption doesn't come into it either.. Because no conclusive proof has been produced to substantiate this claim

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This has already been discussed where I presented such and still have not received an answer about it, except questions to me about my intention in such presentations of facts


peace

[نصير الدين]

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I am not "upset" at all... Any personal disappointment is due to the methods employed on this forum only.. In their dealing with scripture.

Can you be more specific or give an example ?

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I have no issue at all with how the Bible portrays the prophets and I believe it is truth being as they were human and were not immune to sin. It is not a negative view... But an honest view

Well that's an issue from our point of view and I believe this is a good point to start from . But I'll leave that to my brothers and sisters who know more .

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Besides the Biblical prophets who are acknowledged in the Quran are not portrayed as sinless, so I fail to see where your problem is.

Who told you we claim they are sinless ?! The prophet peace upon him said :

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“All the sons of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent often.”

And that includes the prophets as well . However , prophets never commit major sins known as "Kaba'ir" and if they make even the slightest mistake due to their human nature , they are informed of that mistake by Allah as in the story of prophet Muhammad peace upon him and the blind man . And they might do something wrong but it is not intentional as what happened with Musa peace upon him when he killed a man .

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Why would I deny the accounts? I believe they are truth

Not you . The words of Burnlight imply this . But maybe I'm wrong and thus I didn't say it's certain .

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Why do you see that a prophet who may on occasion lapse and sin against God would be hindered by this very human condition in delivering Gods revelation?

Because we differ in the essential basics . Prophets are the best of humans whom Allah chose to deliver his message . Would Allah really choose sinners who commit severe sins and even turn to worship idols ? A sign of Quran appears in my mind now :

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And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.

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In Christianity the message is always of paramount importance... The message itself NOT the messenger.

If the messenger himself cannot be trusted , how do we trust the message ? That's the point in need of discussing . On the contrary in Islam , honesty of a narrator is one of the conditions to accept a narration .

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I cannot reply for Burninglight, and now he is unable to reply for himself... Having being banned.

What happened or what did he do to get banned ?

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So far I have seen no proof that the Quran can indeed be a revelation from YHWH

Just a personal side comment : I find that hilarious to here honestly . You could discuss the evidence for Islam and Christianity later if you want but I suggest to finish this matter first .

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If it were it would not be diametrically opposed to the previous scriptures it claims to confirm. Bible corruption doesn't come into it either.. Because no conclusive proof has been produced to substantiate this claim.

So , after all those months , you STILL don't agree with the shining clear signs and narrations saying the people of the book altered the message ? Well then , evidence for corruption is another subject we should keep in mind and it might be better to include it in the discussion of evidence for Islam and Christianity .

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I have asked for for permission to start a new thread regarding the prophets.. If permission is granted I will address such queries there.

I see .