بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
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Thank you brother and I especially want to talk to you about the Trinity concept in Christianity. If you want you can contact me here anytime: ############@hotmail.com.
For sure I'd love to discuss it and all topics u like on its time, but here in this forum , as when we finish the issue of crucifixion - inshaallah - it will be your time to ask about whatever you like in Islam or Christianity. So, there is no need to exchange e-mails
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John the Baptist's was speaking about the One who is to come, the Messiah/Isa Al Massih. He recognized that Jesus is this Messiah and he called Him "
The Lamb of God who takes away
the sin of the world".
-The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the
third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).
Dear decent guest, was Jesus a lamb?!!!
I can't accept this description, again I said He was Holy in the Holy Quran and we as Muslims can't accept such description !!!
It was mentioned
"the sin" with the definite article
"the" and the singular form
"sin" which refered to
the original sin, but you explained it as "
our sins" as you seem that you yourself
don't accept the idea of the original sin and you believe that there was no inherited sin, and that is a great beginning ....
Let's spotlight on "he was buried, that he was raised on the
third day"
Let's see if that happened according to the Bible:
M't 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
M't 12:40 For
as Jonas was
three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the
Son of man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.
Which meant Jesus would stay 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth as Jonas did in the whale!
Jews didn't consider a day is 24 hours as we do, but at them a day starts from the sun rise to the sun set, while the night of the following day starts from the sun set to the sun rise , and for sure you know the night comes before the day. So the night of Sunday is Saturday at night at us.
Let's calculate it starting from the moment Jesus was buried:
He was buried at the night of ٍSaturday
Lu 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Lu 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the
sabbath drew on.
He Got out before the day of Sunday
M't 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to
dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Let's count how many days and nights
The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
The Night of Sunday +
????
The Day of Saturday is missing
2 nights & 1 day
2 days + 1 night are missing !!!
But
Let's be more generous and calculate Sunday as Luke's Gosble
M'r 16:2 And
very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
So We can Sunday could be included , so it could be as the following:
The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
The Night of Sunday + The day of Sunday
2days & 2 nights
1 day + 1 night are missing !!!
Well, can be even more generous and think that jews used to count even a part or the Friday Day, so it could be like this:
The day of Friday + The night of Saturday
The Day of Saturday + The night of Sunday
The Day of Sunday +
????
The night of Monday is missing
1 night is missing !!!
So, the prophecy of Jesus didn't acheived!!!
Moreover, Jesus wasn't buried in the
Heart of the earth , he was buried in a
stone of a mountain!!!
...................
Who were the witnesses of the story of crucifixion?
4 people who mentioned the story, Luke, Mark, Matthew, John
Mark & Luke did not attend this event , they weren't of his students. What even worse they had never seen him at all.
Matthew & John escaped during the event, as Mark said:
M'r 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
So, Who were the witnesses of the story?!!!
No one !!
Such an issue if it offered to any civilized court, the testimony of these witnesses would be refused at once.!!!!
.................
Who was risen form the Tomb?
The answer is
a Devil or a liar
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for
Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
M't 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo,
here is Christ, or there;
believe it not.
M't 24:24 For there shall
arise false Christs, and
false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very elect.
M't:24:25: Behold, I have told you before.
M't 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers;
believe it not.
No witnesses & Christ himself warned u to belive them& the prophecy was not fulfilled !!! So, do you still accept it?!!!
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Was Jesus suitable for redemption?
The answer is
No !!!
Because any sacrifice must be physically complete, and if it's not complete or deformed or there is any tiny missing part, it can't be suitable for sacrifice, let's have some examples of such thing:
Le 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male
without blemish
Le 1:10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male
without blemish.
Was Jesus physically complete to be suitable for sacrifice?
The Answer is
No !!!
He was circumcised when he was 8 days, to the foreskin was missing !!!
So he was not complete!!
....................
Did God Accept human sacrifice:
No !!!
De 18:10 There
shall not be found among you
any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Le 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of
his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be
put to death: the people of the land shall
stone him with stones.
Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your
members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Human sacrifice is not accepted and capital punishment to whoever commit such a crime!!!
As Paul said:
1Co 15:14 And
if Christ be not risen, then is
our preaching vain, and
your faith is also vain.
That is why i insist to finish this issue completely to realize it's vain!
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just an illustration: Jesus came to you to prison and paid money to get you out of there. He gave you also a huge amount of money which is put to your bank account. You can get this amount ONLY if you will prove that it is YOU whose name is written in the Book of Life (in the bank database system). If your name is written in the Book of Life then you can get your money. It means that Jesus died for all Arabs, Jews, Muslims and unbelievers. But only those whose names will be written in the Book of Life could get to the Kingdom of Heaven and be God’s Inheritance. It means only their sins were forgiven. Only they got salvation and forgiveness through their Faith in God Jesus who died on the cross for them. It is Christianity. So, God forgave the sin of the world (giving forgiveness to every one who wants it) but only a limited number of people came to ‘bank’ to claim their money. Thus, only they will use this huge amount.
Sorry dear, your example has nothing to do with our topic !!!
Jesus didn't pay money, he let himself to be insulted , hit and killed...
Paying money gives you honor
Paying your dignity gives you disgrace, which we can never accept to describe Christ with!
generous people pay money with no condition, but Jesus paid money under a condition !!!
We are not prisoners to be bailed out!!!
Jesus had to pay money to prisoners- no way to release a prisoners except this - So, it's a proof of his weakness!!!
In addition, Jesus was not for all humans, he was for the house of Israel
M't 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
M't 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Let's see another relevant example:
Some theives stole a bank, the judge needed to set them free, so he sentence himself to death!!!
God needed to set humans free, so he killed himself!!!
The question has not been answered till now, Why did he
kill himselfto forgive them however there are many ways for forgiveness? !!!!
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Did Jesus accept to be crucified or not with proof, please?- Jesus said many times before His death that He should die soon (He should be killed and He even said that they will destroy this Temple-His Body and He was going to restore it in three days)
Where is the answer, dear?
The answer I expect was one of two (Yes, he accepted it.) or ( No, He was forced to do it) is there any other expected anwers?!!!
Let's discuss it:
What did it mean if he was forced to do?
1-He can't be a God at all, as there is someone forced him to do.
2- The cliam of love is useless as he didn't do that because he loved you, but because he had to.
3- It's an invitiation to search for that stronger god to worship him instead of Jesus
What did it mean if he accepted to be crucified?
1- He committed suiside,
as he accepted to be killed, however, he was able to defend himself!
2- Why did he try to escape, but they caught him
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but
Jesus hid himself, and
went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Joh 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but
he escaped out of their hand,
3- Why did he shout asking for help on the cross:
M't 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say,
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
So, please think deeply and tell me which one you choose.
....................
There is something we can never neglect in this point:
Did Allah Die on the cross?
You believe that Allah is Jesus, right?
So, you believe that Allah died on the cross !!!
De 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say,
I live for ever.
God
Never die
But Jesus died and buried !!!
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2- Was Jesus crucified for the sake of all humans since Adam, or for people after him only?
– Only for people who lived during the life of Jesus and after His death.
But after His death He went to the hell and we believe that He set some people free from hell who wanted to believe in Him. All people- Jews- who lived before Jesus were judged by God according to the laws of God (Jewish al Shariah). I.e. according to the 10 Holy Commandments
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3-Are all prophets and the believers who followed them in the hell or the paradise?-
No. Even millions of people who called themselves as
Christians are now in hell. We can get to the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY if our names our written in the Book of Life by angels.
It happens ONLY when we are born of God/from God/ born from above. This is the central concept in Christianity when we born by God for a new life with Him. To be born of God we need to BELIEVE that Jesus is God, REPENT of all our sins, CONFESS them to God in salat/prayer and ABANDON these sins.
Where is your proof, dear guest?
He was crucified for those lived during and after him, and who lived before him were judged according to laws, so, who followed the commands are in the paradise, and who neglected them are in the hell, right?
Now, what is the role of crucifiction? !!!!
Obedient worshippers are in the paradise
Disobedients are in the hell
There is no difference might be fulfilled by crucifixion!!!
Exactly like all religions before Him, so, why did he crucify himself?!!!!
Concerning going to hell to get those who believed in him,
You mean He went to
disobedients to realease them, they can't be obedient people as they are already in the paradise as you said
I need you to think honestly, if there is a person in a fire, and whoever has the power to get him out of the fire and he said, " I am your God, if you believe in me, you will be in the paradise"
Do you think there will be even one person refuses him to stay the hell , there is no doubt all of them would believe and accept whatever he says to release themselves, espcially after seeing what we can't see now in this world !!!!
We all believe, this world is the world of test and after death, we gain the fruit of our thinking and there will be no choice given to anybody after death!!!
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I can illustrate it too: you are flying in aircraft to Saudi Arabia (the Kingdom of Heaven) but you follow the instruction and your navigation system (the Holy Spirit/the words of God in the Bible). At the moment when you control your aircraft as you wish and not according to the main rules (when you are sinning or living in sins) then you aircraft will be crashed facing the mountains which you could not see because of the law visibility. So, in the aircraft you are safe and heading for the Kingdom of God ONLY if you obey God and lives as He says. If you live as you want then you will crash soon. So, who is saved? Only THOSE who landed safely in the Kingdom of Heaven! So, you need to be safe and saved! Not all are able to land safe at the destination- the Kingdom of Heaven.
Sorry dear it has nothing to do with crucifixion!!!
I can apply it to any religion or even to a company system!
Who follows his relogious teaching will reach his target safely,
and who does not will be dismissed out!!!
The issue is the role of crucifixion!!, please don't forget
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it is a symbol even in Islam that the Lamb of God is offered by God instead of us.
God tested Ibrahim and asked from him the best and the most precious- his son. Ibrahim was ready to kill his son (he actually killed him already in his heart). But knowing the love of Ibrahim toward God, God also gave us His Son Jesus to forgive and bear all our sins instead of us
.
Great difference between the two stories!
Ibraham was a God's slave, not the God
Allah tested him, but refused to let him kill his son!
You said, "he actually killed him already in his heart"
How did you know?!!!
If you were him, would you kill your son in your heart?!!
He did that upon his nose!!!
That is why God rewarded him and sacrificed a lamb instead of his son!The test was not for Ibraham, it was for them all, him and his son, and both were prophets and both were His slaves, His Creatures!!
This symbol contradicts the crucifixion, that Allah the most mercifull refused to let a man to kill his son, would you think Allah would do if he had a son?!!!
What people can do and get or gained are different from Allah do. We are His creatures; For example, we go to toilet, bleed, do bad stuff...etc.
Allah has attributes of perfection and pride ,shortage is impossible in his part; and killing his son ( as you believe ) - by the hand of his creatures - is an unforgivable crime
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To be continued
A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar
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Originally Posted by Authentic Man
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