Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

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Dear friend, please stop this nonsense and don't say such things. Jesus was never viewed as A god by any Christian ever. The fact that you continue with this fallacy despite being told time and time again that Christians believe in ONE God, that is YHWH, God of the Bible and all the prophets, means I am failing here to explain things clearly enough, may hap the fault is mine and my linguistic skills are not up to the task, or maybe you cannot allow yourself to understand this fact.

Dear friend Pandora,
--Thank you for your message .I testify that you are very polite and respectful .I am sorry that you felt tired and frustrated. But excuse me I am not the cause of that but you who started the discussion and you who can end it. The matter is not who win and who lose . Consider that you are the winner and I am the loser.The matter is more dangerous than that.It is the dogma .Who do you worship ? The only true God that Jesus himself worshipped and prostrated to him only? .The God of Jews and Muslims.The God of Nooh. Ibraham,Jacob,Ismael. Izak. Moses,Jesus and Muhammad (pbu them all)..Or the God of the Bible who is three persons in one , or one in three persons ( Trinity) that the Father is God but he is not the son or the Holy Spirit .The Son is God but he is not the father or the Holy Spirit .The Holy Spirit is God but he is not the father or the son But they are all one . How do triangulation equals monotheism?.Triangulation means three and monotheism means one. How can three = one or one = three ?
-- No one in Christianity even the Pope himself can explain (trinity)
--- Jesus himself (pbuh) worshipped the only God of Jews ,Ibraham ,Jacob and Muhammad (pbu them).Your book says that :
(John 8/40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
--- In these verses Jesus (pbuh) proclaimed a resounding high that he is a man that told Jews the truth.When Jews said "we have one God", he blamed them saying that they should have loved him because he came from that God as a prophet.In the third verse he said that his God (who is the same God of the Jews ).honoured him. Then Jesus worshipped the only true God of Nooh,Ibraham,Jacob,Mosses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all ).Why did Christians deviated on worshipping the only true God .The God of all messengers and prophets . They invented what is called "trinity)" that no nation had done before. Please read the debate and the dialogue beween Arius who beleived that Jesus is a man and he never been God and Athanasius who believed that Jesus equals the father in the Council of Nicea which was held in 19 July 325 where they made Jesus God for the first time.Jesus is innocent of that (peace be upon him)

[pandora]

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Dear friend Pandora,
--Thank you for your message .I testify that you are very polite and respectful .I am sorry that you felt tired and frustrated. But excuse me I am not the cause of that but you who started the discussion and you who can end it. The matter is not who win and who lose . Consider that you are the winner and I am the loser.

Friend, I assure you... You are not the cause of my being tired and frustrated. It is the difficulty I have compiling posts and the length of time it takes to post anything. Everything takes so long to load with this site, yet I do not have this problem with other websites. Also I guess, I get the impression that any information I provide is largely ignored, which means we forever circle each other repeating what has already been said. :) I agree this is not about winning or losing that doesn't bother me and is not my aim. I just seek clarity and hopefully to dispel misunderstandings about my belief as a Christian. It appears Muslims are fond of telling Christians what Christians belief but really it is more your interpretation of what you think we believe.. If that makes sense :) it does rather appear that I am banging my head against a brick wall in this respect and muslims are quite happy in viewing Christians with the labels they themselves have attached to us and there is no real interest in clarity.

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The matter is more dangerous than that.It is the dogma .Who do you worship ? The only true God that Jesus himself worshipped and prostrated to him only? .The God of Jews and Muslims.The God of Nooh. Ibraham,Jacob,Ismael. Izak. Moses,Jesus and Muhammad (pbu them all)..Or the God of the Bible who is three persons in one , or one in three persons ( Trinity) that the Father is God but he is not the son or the Holy Spirit .The Son is God but he is not the father or the Holy Spirit .The Holy Spirit is God but he is not the father or the son But they are all one . How do triangulation equals monotheism?.Triangulation means three and monotheism means one. How can three = one or one = three ?
-- No one in Christianity even the Pope himself can explain (trinity)

Now I can once again repeat myself by stating I.. As a Christian do worship the ONE True God, that God is YHWH, God of the BIBLE and of all the Prophets and Christ Jesus. I could ask you which God do you believe you worship... And is Allah the same God as YHWH? I sincerely hope He is, because my dear friend if you do not see we share the same ONE True God then truly... I cannot see we have anything to discuss.

I do not see that your inability to understand the concept of the trinity, or indeed the Popes inability to explain it.. Or indeed anyone's efforts to ensure God fits within the bounds of our human logic the better to understand Him... Is any kind of big problem that has much baring on mans ever seeking relationship with God. God exists eternally weather we believe or how we choose to interpret that belief, the world turns the same.. By Gods grace.

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--- Jesus himself (pbuh) worshipped the only God of Jews ,Ibraham ,Jacob and Muhammad (pbu them).Your book says that :
(John 8/40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
--- In these verses Jesus (pbuh) proclaimed a resounding high that he is a man that told Jews the truth.When Jews said "we have one God", he blamed them saying that they should have loved him because he came from that God as a prophet.In the third verse he said that his God (who is the same God of the Jews ).honoured him. Then Jesus worshipped the only true God of Nooh,Ibraham,Jacob,Mosses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all ).Why did Christians deviated on worshipping the only true God .The God of all messengers and prophets . They invented what is called "trinity)" that no nation had done before. Please read the debate and the dialogue beween Arius who beleived that Jesus is a man and he never been God and Athanasius who believed that Jesus equals the father in the Council of Nicea which was held in 19 July 325 where they made Jesus God for the first time.Jesus is innocent of that (peace be upon him)

I find it odd you choose the Gospel of John to seek to prove Jesus was nothing more than a man, when the very nature of the Gospel of John is concerned with explaining the divinity of Jesus, through the words, deeds and teachings of Jesus Himself. It differs from the three synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke in this respect. If you took the time to read more of John you would see far from proving Jesus as a mere mortal man... It does in fact seek to prove the opposite. I attach a greater portion from John which when you see the short excerpts you used are seen in context they offer a different perspective,

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are


31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


Jesus’ Claims About Himself


48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I quoted a link to the entire content of discussion on the council of Nicea, it was rather lengthy, I have no reason to go through it all again. The trinity was not "invented" at Nicea, the council was to discuss mainly the divinity of Christ Jesus. When you says things like ~ Christians deviated on worshipping the only true God ~ I have to say I find that an inaccurate assessment and also quite hurtful. However, I know you do say such out of malice and only say what you believe is true according to what you have been taught.

Peace and Gods blessings upon you.

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

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Christians believe in ONE God, that is YHWH, God of the Bible and all the prophets, means I am failing here to explain things clearly enough, may hap the fault is mine and my linguistic skills are not up to the task, or maybe you cannot allow yourself to understand this fact.

-- I think that Christians prefer rest and relaxation to research and making the necessary effort, especially in matters of faith. I am wondering of what you say that you worship one only God. Call God what you want " Allah" " God" "YHWH" but be sure that He is the only true God that Jesus himself invited you to worship. The God of Nooh ,Ibraham,Isaak,Jaccb .Moses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) . Was Ibraham worshipping the God of The Bible who is "The father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". Was Moses worshipping that God? Was Muhammad worshipping the God of the Bible ? If so you are on the straight way?. If not you are worshipping another God Jesus himself did not know.
-- We Muslims , worship the only true God of that universe. The only creator of that world. The only true God who sent all these great prophets and messengers.with one message . To teach people that " There is no God but God (Allah)" He has no son, no wife ,no partner,no one equals him and no one likens him.No one has heard his voice and no one has seen him. Muhammad (pbuh) did not come with a new religion "Islam" .We are on the religion of the father of prophets and messengers Abraham.. The word "Islam" means "peace" in Arabic.Also it means "The complete submission to the will of Allah and being perfect obedient to him.Doing his orders and his instructions (which are always good and benefit for all humanity) and avoiding his prohibitions (which are always harmful for all humanity). . Allah ordered us to follow the religion of Abraham .He says in the Holy Quran:
"Abraham was indeed a model Devoutly obedient to Allah, (and) true in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah: (120) He showed his gratitude for the favours of Allah Who chose him and guided him to a straight way. (121) And We gave him Good in this world, and he will be, in the Hereafter, in the ranks of the righteous. (122) So We have taught thee (Muhammad) the inspired (message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah." (16/120-123)


125. Who can be better In Religion than one who submits His whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true In Faith? for Allah did take Abraham for a friend.(4/125)

95. Say: "(Allah) speaketh the truth: follow the Religion of Abraham, the sane In faith; He was not of the Pagans." (3/95)

161. Say: "Verily, My Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a Religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true In Faith, and He (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."(6/161)

130. And who turns away from the Religion of Abraham but such As debase their souls with folly? Him we chose and rendered pure In This world: and He will be In the Hereafter In the ranks of the Righteous.
131. Behold! His Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132. And This was the legacy that Abraham left to His sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh My sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except In the Faith of Islam."

--- Let us see the commandments of Jacob (peace be upon him) to his family before death:
133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, He said to His sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of Thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (true) Allah. to Him we bow (in Islam)."

--- I do not doubt for a moment that Jesus (pbuh) was a great model in his submission , his Humility and his obedience to the will of Allah (pbth).This is evident in his words in the length and width of the Gospel. He uttered it high resonant :
:"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent JOH-17-3"
-- Jesus (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God,and Jesus is the prophet of God.
-- His brother Muhammad (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God. This is the first rule of the five rules that Islam was built on.
-- In Islam all prophets and messengers are brothers.We believe in them all.We make no difference between them.Allah taught us that in his Holy Book the Quran saying :
136. Say ye: "We believe In Allah, and the Revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."(2/136)
-- Peace bo to you every time.And may Allah help you and guide me and you to the straight way.The way of all prophets and messengers.

to be continued

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

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I also stated that we see a case for the UNIQUE son ship of Jesus in the Bible

-- How can Jesus the UNIQUE son of God while Israel was the firstborn son of God as in (Exo 4/22).Soloman was a son of God. Peace makers were "sons of God".
-- It is common in the Bible the phrases "son of God" "sons of God" "Was born in Allah" "son of devil". Of course they are not physical phrases.They are metaphorical phrases.Such as we say 'the son of desert" means he lived in desert and he loves living in it.The son of Nile" " the son of stage ". The son of God" means that he loves God and he is always sincere in obeying him.
-- Why do Christians insist on raising Jesus (pbuh) to the degree of divinity although all prophets and messengers of Allah were men.Does Allah send angels or gods to mankind to guide them to worship Allah? Why do they insist to make him God or part of God although he said that he is a man and a son of man 63 times in length and width of the Gospel? Does that satisfy Jesus himself ? Did that happen the longevity of this universe?
--- You said that I want to make Jesus mere man only. Yes , he is a man and a son of man as he himself called himself. Do you think being a man that reduces the high rank and value of Jesus (pbuh)?!!. By Allah No.
-- Please,read about the people of Noah who have mocked him .They wondered how Allah sends a man .Allah told us about them saying :-

23. (Further, we sent a long line of prophets for your instruction). we sent Noah to His people: He said, "O My people! worship Allah. ye have no other god but Him. will ye not fear (Him)?"

24. The Chiefs of the unbelievers among His people said: "He is no more than a man like yourselves: His wish is to assert His superiority over you: if Allah had wished (to send messengers), He could have sent down angels; never did we Hear such a thing (as He says), among Our ancestors of old.(23/23-24)
-- Allah (praise be to him) replied to them saying:-
94. What kept men back from belief when guidance came to them, was nothing but this: They said, "Has Allah sent a man (Like us) to be (His) Messenger."
95. Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about In peace and quiet, we should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle."(17/94-95)
-- I am wondering .What is the highest rank and value can man reach to in that universe? The president of the biggest and the richest country,or the president of all that world. Allah (pbth) honoured and raised the rank and value of those men in that world and in the hereafter . Allah chose them , granted them the grace of the closeness to him ,and used them as his messengers and prophets. In the hereafter they will be in the highest place in Paradise.What rank is better than that?. Oh Allah , grant us your forgiveness ,your mercy and your satisfaction and collect us with them in paradise.Ameen,Ameen.

[pandora]

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-- I think that Christians prefer rest and relaxation to research and making the necessary effort, especially in matters of faith. I am wondering of what you say that you worship one only God. Call God what you want " Allah" " God" "YHWH" but be sure that He is the only true God that Jesus himself invited you to worship.

Nonsense, there is no need for research into ones faith. If your faith on God depends on research and logic then what an empty faith that is. As a Christian I have utmost faith in God, my creator, my sustainer. I have utmost faith in Gods Holy Spirit, my guide and my inspiration. I have utmost faith in Christ Jesus.. My saviour and my redeemer who never a lie was found on His lips so when Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I have the utmost faith that he was telling the truth.

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The God of Nooh ,Ibraham,Isaak,Jaccb .Moses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) . Was Ibraham worshipping the God of The Bible who is "The father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". Was Moses worshipping that God? Was Muhammad worshipping the God of the Bible ? If so you are on the straight way?. If not you are worshipping another God Jesus himself did not know.

Yes, all the Biblical prophets worshipped the same God, as did Jesus and as Christians do today. Muslims have an incomplete picture of the Biblical prophets. Many, including Abraham and Moses experienced God manifested before them. You do not believe this because the Quran is ambiguous at best in regards to the Bible prophets, however the Bible is very clear on this point and I have no reason to doubt it as it makes more sense to me that the alternative version found in the Quran.

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-- We Muslims , worship the only true God of that universe. The only creator of that world. The only true God who sent all these great prophets and messengers.with one message . To teach people that " There is no God but God (Allah)" He has no son, no wife ,no partner,no one equals him and no one likens him.No one has heard his voice and no one has seen him. Muhammad (pbuh) did not come with a new religion "Islam" .We are on the religion of the father of prophets and messengers Abraham.. The word "Islam" means "peace" in Arabic.Also it means "The complete submission to the will of Allah and being perfect obedient to him.Doing his orders and his instructions (which are always good and benefit for all humanity) and avoiding his prohibitions (which are always harmful for all humanity). . Allah ordered us to follow the religion of Abraham .

I tire of repeating the same points.. That being I do not understand why the Quran makes such claims about God having no son, no wife, no partners and no equal. This is NOT new... Jews and Christians never held such views. In fact the only people who may have held such a view I believe would have been the pagan tribes of Arabia at that time, the very same pagan tribes that Mohammed was called to bring to the one God.

Many bible prophets heard God, spoke with God and saw manifestations of God. That you do not see that it is perfectly possible for our God as all powerful creator to manifest His Divine being to mankind if He so wished to I believe places limits on Our God. I have heard of the term Islam meaning submission to God, but as to how it also means peace I shall have to take your word for that as the root meaning of peace and submission are very different I feel. I do believe Islam is a new religion, because it differs in so many ways from all that went before. The Gospels followed the Old Testament, the Jewish scriptures, the Quran denies the Bible as Gods word, muslims do not accept what the Bible claims for itself, preferring to believe it has been corrupted by man, yet even when making such a claim do not see how incongruous it is, that God failed to protect His message being changed by His creation ..mankind. If we ask the questions when was the Bible message changed.. By whom..how was it accomplished.. And what was the purpose of changing it and more importantly where is the proof of such claim?

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He says in the Holy Quran:
"Abraham was indeed a model Devoutly obedient to Allah, (and) true in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah: (120) He showed his gratitude for the favours of Allah Who chose him and guided him to a straight way. (121) And We gave him Good in this world, and he will be, in the Hereafter, in the ranks of the righteous. (122) So We have taught thee (Muhammad) the inspired (message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah." (16/120-123)


125. Who can be better In Religion than one who submits His whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true In Faith? for Allah did take Abraham for a friend.(4/125)

95. Say: "(Allah) speaketh the truth: follow the Religion of Abraham, the sane In faith; He was not of the Pagans." (3/95)

161. Say: "Verily, My Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a Religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true In Faith, and He (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."(6/161)

130. And who turns away from the Religion of Abraham but such As debase their souls with folly? Him we chose and rendered pure In This world: and He will be In the Hereafter In the ranks of the Righteous.
131. Behold! His Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132. And This was the legacy that Abraham left to His sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh My sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except In the Faith of Islam."

--- Let us see the commandments of Jacob (peace be upon him) to his family before death:
133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, He said to His sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of Thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (true) Allah. to Him we bow (in Islam)."

--- I do not doubt for a moment that Jesus (pbuh) was a great model in his submission , his Humility and his obedience to the will of Allah (pbth).This is evident in his words in the length and width of the Gospel. He uttered it high resonant :
:"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent JOH-17-3"
-- Jesus (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God,and Jesus is the prophet of God.
-- His brother Muhammad (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God. This is the first rule of the five rules that Islam was built on.
-- In Islam all prophets and messengers are brothers.We believe in them all.We make no difference between them.Allah taught us that in his Holy Book the Quran saying :
136. Say ye: "We believe In Allah, and the Revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."(2/136)
-- Peace bo to you every time.And may Allah help you and guide me and you to the straight way.The way of all prophets and messengers.

to be continued

That is it... It says in the Quran.. That is for you to believe as your sacred scripture from Allah through Mohammed. My sacred scriptures give me a different picture, and for me this picture is brighter and clearer and I believe that Gods Holy Spirit gives me that clarity. See my friend, I believe God sets us on our path and if it is Gods will that path be changed then then it is God who shows us a different route... Maybe one that we can understand the better. As we are all different we each perceive things differently and as such need to learn the way to Gods love by different means.

Peace to you and may the God we share continue to guide you.