Can God Become A Man

[pandora]

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In the end they are Christians !
Their words support what it was written in the holy Qura'n !

I am telling you they are not. The fact their words support the Quran shows this fact.. As the Quran is diametrically opposed to what Christianity teaches.

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please read this :

We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior.

http://www.mormon.org/faq/mormon-christian

Mormons follow a false prophet... Joseph Smith.. Who claims to have a revelation from God which is written and kept in Heaven on golden plates..!! Actually.. Read up..on Joseph Smith there are similarities between him and Prophet Mohammed but if I were a Muslim I would not be shouting that his message agrees with Islam at all!!!! As Islam claims there is no prophets after Prophet Mohammed I'm surprised you even mention the Mormons.. The Jesus they accept is not the Biblical Jesus any more than Isa of the Quran is the biblical Jesus.

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here Jesus PUH is the messenger of god !

John 5 : 37

And the Father himself, which hath sent me,
hath borne witness of me.
Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Yes.. As the message.. Jesus was the message, the Gospel the Good News..

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basically it's the muslim's money !
the infidels exclude the believers out of Mecca and they stole their money and Properties !

really... Then that's ok then.. And if some get killed in the process then I guess the sin of taking a life is also ok then.

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deut 19 : 21

And thine eye shall not pity;
but life shall go for life, eye for eye,
tooth for tooth,
hand for hand,
foot for foot.

And what did Jesus teach....

Matthew 5:38-40


Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

Christians follow the new covenant which fulfilled the Old...

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are you sure ????

Attachment 13849

Romans 3 : 6

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?



Psalms 137 : 9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.



Attachment 13848

and we have more :

Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies
the pastor : Bartolome de Las Casas

http://www.lehigh.edu/~ejg1/doc/lascasas/casas.htm

I'm finding your lack of understanding on this point depressing I'm sure you have plenty more to bring.. But if you think by doing so will change my opinion on Gods righteous wrath and why God does not need to justify the same to mankind ... Save your effort.. Because it won't. As for the little pictures that has NOTHING to do with Christianity.. But to do with misguided "Christians" who through their own arrogance interpret the scriptures and twist them in such a way as to justify their actions. God see their hearts and knows the truth.., they are not Christians where it counts... In their heart. This also applies to muslims.. In the world today who kill each other in the name of THEIR Islam... Is it true Islam they kill for? Are they muslims where it counts... In their hearts? So what are you talking about here.. Wasting time when we each know what it means to follow our respective faiths in truth according to Gods will. Stop judging Christianity by the actions of people.. Judge it by its message.

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Those persons they not say they forgive sins nor they were gods and saviors !
They deserved this punishment because they guide others away from the straight path.
Where is the problem ?????

may God guide us to the right way .

AMEN.

The problem is yours not mine. I follow the right path God placed me on according to His grace and will. For me God decides who is deserving of punishment. If I cease to me a Christian I am not castigated for it on this earth.. I am free to leave my religion and follow another path if that is Gods will. I know the path I have chosen is sound and built on rock.. My salvation lies with Jesus.

May God guide everyone to the truth of His love.

Peace to you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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I said it appears to me that these verses do allow for the fact that in certain circumstances a person can bear the sin of another.... Or burdens.. Your example below weather both parties stand condemned the lot of one still bears the greater burden of a others sin. I thank you for your explanations.



just to clarify a point.. We do not inherit Adams sin. Jesus taught that He was the only way to God the Father.. The Bible throughout teaches this fact. That God would send a redeemer. . Messiah.. To make us righteous before God. We do not believe we can by our own efforts achieve this. God has decreed a blood sacrifice has to be paid for sin.. By His grace He provided the final perfect lamb of God, just as He did for Abraham when He provided the ram.. Only the perfect lamb as sinless is the final sacrifice for all. All who are His are saved by grace. It does not mean we are absolved from the sins of our own actions.



As Christians we live under the new covenant.. To see this verse in context it refers to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah. So we have to see the context of these verses is the Torah. If we want to understand the verses we need to understand some basics about the Torah...When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this in Leviticus...

(H)e must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

We see...


For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. (Leviticus 17:11)


This is why a lot of the Torah teaches about priests, sacrifices and the tabernacle/temple where the sacrifices were offered. The Torah teaches individual responsibility and forgiveness through a substitute sacrifice that bears our sin. These verses are not saying there is no sacrifice that can bear our sin. Instead they are saying that we are individually responsible for our sins and need to seek forgiveness through God's provision of a substitute sacrifice that can bear our sin. These verses confirm what Christianity teaches. The law which Jesus fulfilled means we do not have to offer substitutionary sacrifices.. Because of the work of Jesus on the cross. So to surmise.. Christians as followers of Jesus are under the new covenant that was authored by Him.

I hope this explains in some way your issue with Ezekiel.

peace

The point of discussion between us whether god can FORGIVE ALL THE SIN OF OTHERS by one person who is innocent takes the burdon of ALL humanity

Of course all the jews , muslims and christians agree that if a certain someone misguides an entire group he will have his sins and the sins of misguiding people but jews and muslims also agree that those whom have been misled will also have THOSE SINS TOO

I hope that you focus on the point because the way you are putting it is taking A PART of what I said and applying it and comparing it to your belief WHICH DOES NOT WORK AS STATED IN THE QURAN IN VARIOUS PLACES :

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination.

Quran Surah Fatir verse 18

Second yes in christianity you do inherit the sin of Adam :

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:12-14

I hope that when you make a claim you back it up




As for the last part you are way off :

First although the passage in Eziekiel was addressing the israelites Paul makes it CLEAR THAT DURING THAT TIME THEY WERE ALL SINFULL :

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5: 14

Second : the passage you reffered to was about ANIMAL SACRIFICE WHICH ALSO EXISTS IN ISLAM NOT HUMAN AND CERTAINLY NOT DEVINE!!!!

(H)e must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect

Third : in the same passage the sins of the israelites were forgiven :

In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.
This is a clear contradiction to the teachings of paul

Fourth : There were MANY circumstances in the old testement were god forgave people without animal sacrifice :

10 When God saw their actions—they turned from their evil way of living!—God relented concerning the judgment he had threatened them with and he did not destroy them.

Jonah 3:10

Fifth and more importantly is that the passage in leviticous is the caes of forgiveness ONLY WHEN AN ISRAELITE EATS BLOOD:

10 “‘Any man from the house of Israel or from the foreigners who reside in their midst who eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats the blood, and I will cut him off from the midst of his people, 11 for the life of every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life.

LEVITICUS17: 10-11

This also exists in Islam which is sometimes reffered to as Kaffara كفارة

These verses disproves christianity it CLEARLY STATES THAT SOMEONE may not bear the sins of others , blood sacrifice is ONLY OF ANIMALS IN SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES ONLY AS STATED IN LEVITICUS, People were forgiven of sins in leviticus and jonah but inheritted in Romans A CLEAR CONTRADICTION

Ezikiel clearly states a Father cannot pass down his sins to the child while romans states that we were all in sin before jeusus even during the time of moses (Death in Adam, Life in Jesus)


I hope that you review the old testament carefully before quoting it , please know the CONTEXT of the passages you qoute

peace on you and may god guide you

[محمد سني 1989]

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My reply was directed to Burninglight as a fellow Christian he understands the issue with Son of Mary.. Which muslims do not. Why would Jesus deny his mother or siblings? Do you think He should be announcing at every opportunity he was son of God?

Mary does hold high status in Christianity for reasons we understand,..though Mary was never considered Holy in scripture and it is clear what honour was due her.. Jesus did not elevate His mother Mary above other Mothers and I believe it is wrong to elevate her as some appear to. I do not know why Mary is honoured in the Quran... As a mother of just another prophet why are the mothers of other prophets not afforded the same honour. Unless the Quran sees that it is through Jesus that Mary is honoured and so it is Jesus that is some way different and special and apart from other prophets.

Peace.

First Islam does venerate mothers of other prophets such as the mother of moses peace be upon him , also the mother of Mary peace be upon her is also venerated , however they are venerated due to their loyalty to god and their high faith and worship , the quran clearly states that god has chose Mary from among other women to bear Jesus the messiah :

But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her in You and [for] her descendants from Satan, the expelled [from the mercy of Allah ]."So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance and caused her to grow in a good manner and put her in the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer chamber, he found with her provision. He said, "O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?" She said, "It is from Allah . Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account."


Quran surah Al imran verses 36-37

Another example :

And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer].
Surah Al imran 42-43


[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
Surah Al Imran verse 45

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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Actually.. Read up..on Joseph Smith there are similarities between him and Prophet Mohammed but if I were a Muslim I would not be shouting that his message agrees with Islam at all!!!!

there is no way to compare between a true prophet PUH and a charlatan !
there is a big difference between the soil and the pleiades .
Did the prophet Muhammad PUH says that Jesus PUH is the savior or God had sex with the virgin Mary ????

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really... Then that's ok then.. And if some get killed in the process then I guess the sin of taking a life is also ok then

Killing pagans and polytheists wariors is not a sin !
what is your point ???

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As for the little pictures that has NOTHING to do with Christianity

Maybe we are talking about Buddhists !


the Pastor holds the cross in his hand !
he is saying to the Indian : you must accept Jesus as savior or I 'll burn you alive !

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Stop judging Christianity by the actions of people.. Judge it by its message.

luk 19 : 27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

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I am free to leave my religion and follow another path if that is Gods will.

This will be your punishment :

deut 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.




peace .

[pandora]

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there is no way to compare between a true prophet PUH and a charlatan !
there is a big difference between the soil and the pleiades .
Did the prophet Muhammad PUH says that Jesus PUH is the savior or God had sex with the virgin Mary ????

You refer to prophet Mohammed as the star ?? Many muslims tend to believe that Jesus being the Son of God implies a physical union between God and Mary (I pray that God may forgive my blaspheming by repeating such.. God knows my heart is true Amen) they must have arrived at this conclusion somehow. Besides no offence, but prophet Mohammed's credentials as a true prophet are no more convincing than Joseph Smiths.. From a Christian perspective.

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Killing pagans and polytheists wariors is not a sin !
what is your point ???

Do you see Christians as polytheists?

***‘We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth” (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.’
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5***

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Maybe we are talking about Buddhists !


the Pastor holds the cross in his hand !
he is saying to the Indian : you must accept Jesus as savior or I 'll burn you alive !

I don't care what some medieval pastor is holding in his hand.. I am telling you he is NOT a Christian because he is acting AGAINST the teachings of Christ.!!!!! Why is it so hard for you to grasp this!! You are talking history here.. Christians were persecuted by other "Christians" and killed horribly and labeled heretics for daring to hold a difference of opinion. They were not acting on Gods authority or following the teachings of Jesus. Thankfully, we've moved on from that dark age.

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luk 19 : 27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies
Meaning particularly the Jews, who were enemies to the person of Christ, and hated and rejected him, as the King Messiah; and rebelled against him, and would not submit to his government; and were enemies to his people, and were exceeding mad against them, and persecuted them; and to his Gospel, and the distinguishing truths of it, and to his ordinances, which they rejected against themselves:


which would not that I should reign over them;
see ( Luke 19:14 )


bring hither, and slay [them] before me;
which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely discourses in this chapter; see ( Luke 19:41-44 ) though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ; and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished with everlasting destruction by him; and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death: of the first of these the Jews say F14,


``in the time to come the holy, blessed God, will bring forth the evil imagination (or corruption of nature), "and slay it before" the righteous, and the wicked.''
~~~~~

I'm sure we've discussed this before... So rather than repeat myself I copy and paste for your perusal.. Not that you're bothered.. lol

http://www.biblestudytools.com/comme...uke-19-27.html

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This will be your punishment :

deut 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.


peace .

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Bless you... NO this will not be my punishment as I am not under the Old Testament law this applies to. Neither am I Jewish ..this Law was written for the Jewish people of that time. The clue is actually in the text.. As to who this law was meant for, I guess in your zeal to find another verse that "agrees" with some point you're making... You kinda overlooked that. I do not believe they follow it now. Under the New Covenant that Christians are under, this no longer applies.... So if I left Christianity and accepted Islam tomorrow no one would be coming after me with pockets full of stones. Can you say the same? Just to say at this point.. I am sure neither of us are even contemplating leaving our respective faith. :)

Peace to you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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[CENTER]

You refer to prophet Mohammed as the star ?? Many muslims tend to believe that Jesus being the Son of God implies a physical union between God and Mary (I pray that God may forgive my blaspheming by repeating such.. God knows my heart is true Amen) they must have arrived at this conclusion somehow. Besides no offence, but prophet Mohammed's credentials as a true prophet are no more convincing than Joseph Smiths.. From a Christian perspective.



Do you see Christians as polytheists?

***‘We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth” (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.’
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5***



I don't care what some medieval pastor is holding in his hand.. I am telling you he is NOT a Christian because he is acting AGAINST the teachings of Christ.!!!!! Why is it so hard for you to grasp this!! You are talking history here.. Christians were persecuted by other "Christians" and killed horribly and labeled heretics for daring to hold a difference of opinion. They were not acting on Gods authority or following the teachings of Jesus. Thankfully, we've moved on from that dark age.










Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies
Meaning particularly the Jews, who were enemies to the person of Christ, and hated and rejected him, as the King Messiah; and rebelled against him, and would not submit to his government; and were enemies to his people, and were exceeding mad against them, and persecuted them; and to his Gospel, and the distinguishing truths of it, and to his ordinances, which they rejected against themselves:


which would not that I should reign over them;
see ( Luke 19:14 )


bring hither, and slay [them] before me;
which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely discourses in this chapter; see ( Luke 19:41-44 ) though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ; and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished with everlasting destruction by him; and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death: of the first of these the Jews say F14,


``in the time to come the holy, blessed God, will bring forth the evil imagination (or corruption of nature), "and slay it before" the righteous, and the wicked.''
~~~~~

I'm sure we've discussed this before... So rather than repeat myself I copy and paste for your perusal.. Not that you're bothered.. lol

http://www.biblestudytools.com/comme...uke-19-27.html




Bless you... NO this will not be my punishment as I am not under the Old Testament law this applies to. Neither am I Jewish ..this Law was written for the Jewish people of that time. The clue is actually in the text.. As to who this law was meant for, I guess in your zeal to find another verse that "agrees" with some point you're making... You kinda overlooked that. I do not believe they follow it now. Under the New Covenant that Christians are under, this no longer applies.... So if I left Christianity and accepted Islam tomorrow no one would be coming after me with pockets full of stones. Can you say the same? Just to say at this point.. I am sure neither of us are even contemplating leaving our respective faith. :)

Peace to you.

First : No Muslim said that christians claim that there were a physical intercourse could forbid. We know your understandings and beliefs about Jesus and the trinity so I do not think that throwing such accusations is fair.

Second:Christians in the hereafter will be treated as polytheists for believing in trinity. No matter how you put it it is A ROMAN PAGAN IDEA THAT ALSO EXISTED IN ANCIENT PAGAN RELIGIONS

Third: For the blood section !!! The passaage you quoted contradicts many other passages in the bible!!!such as :
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)


Or this passage is talking about the innocent not during BATTLE where a soldier kills another SOLDIER

The passage you quoted has also a similarity in the quran :
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

Surah Al Maidah verse 32

Fourth: As for the medievil monk I say that brother اسلامي عزي shows how easily it is to judge followers of a whole religion based on the actions of just a few. Those indians must have been saying to themselves that christianity is a religion of terror BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF THEIR SLOTERRERS

Fifth:Your interpritation that the parable was talking about the prophecy of the distruction of Jerusalim is False For two reasons :

First : Jesus peace be upon him did actually prophesice the destruction of the temple and the humiliation of the jews for disbelieving however it did not happen infront of him

Second and most importantly is that Jesus was addressing HIS FOLLOWERS NOT THE ROMAN SOLDIERS !!!!!:

The audience of Jesus were followers from the town of Jericho:

1He entered Jericho and was passing through.2And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich

Luke 19: 1-2


IT then goes on :


7When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, "He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner."8Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."


Luke 19: 7-8


[11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

Luke 19: 11

This passage describe his followers and instructions to them not to romans



As for the destruction of the jews in the second coming . We muslims agree with you 100% . The jews will be the army of the antichrist and jesus peace be upon him will be the leader on the muslim army and he will kill the antichrist :

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:

The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.
ٍSahih Muslim Book 41, Hadith 7034

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.


Sahih Muslim Book 41, Hadith 6981


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.


Saheh Muslim

Book 41, Hadith 6985


​Peace

[pandora]

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First : No Muslim said that christians claim that there were a physical intercourse could forbid. We know your understandings and beliefs about Jesus and the trinity so I do not think that throwing such accusations is fair.

Believe me.. I have been told by muslims that I as a Christian believe that Jesus being Son of God implies a physical union between Almighty God and Mary. To hear this made me feel sick, to have such blasphemy laid at the door of Christians who have never ever in the history of the world believed such a thing. Where do they get this wild idea in their head? Not the Bible for they do not read or understand it... Not from Christians because we do not believe it.. It can only come from Islam or Muslims, that they possibly misunderstand verses in the Quran is their problem not mine. I can see where the less enlightened may get that idea from these Suras such an implication can be taken. How can He have a child without a consort??? Implies that there must be a physical union for a child to result. Taken neither wife nor son..!!! Again it does rather seem from this that God needs a wife in order to have a son. Beget and begotten appears here to be used in the human sense.. Where the actual term in the Bible used is monogenes.. Which means unique.. Which is how we see Jesus.

Sura 6:102 “The originator of heavens and earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort?”


Sura 72:3 “We believe that He - exalted be the glory of our Lord - hath taken neither wife nor son.”


Sura 112:1-4 “Proclaim, 'He is the One and only GOD. The Absolute GOD. Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. None equals Him.”

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The passage you quoted has also a similarity in the quran :
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.


Surah Al Maidah verse 32

and this does not seem at all incongruous to you that this almost identical passage is found in the Quran? The original from the Mishnah Sanhedrin... The Mishnah is a Jewish commentary on the Torah. It is not or ever was part of the Torah and so was not considered scripture.. Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 4:10, a Rabbi came up with the supposition that all Abel's offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications. This was a theory set out in the Mishnah by a man.... Not a decree from God. How did a Rabbi's commentary make its way into the Qur'an and be quoted as word from Allah?

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Fourth: As for the medievil monk I say that brother اسلامي عزي shows how easily it is to judge followers of a whole religion based on the actions of just a few. Those indians must have been saying to themselves that christianity is a religion of terror BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF THEIR SLOTERRERS

this cuts both ways .. Don't you think? Which I have been saying all along. You cannot judge a religion on the actions of some of its "misguided" followers. Simply because a follower is a monk or whatever does not make them any better or worse than any other follower. They are the same human in nature as anyone else, as such are sinners.. In need of redemption. No difference from some imams calling for hatred against non muslims in the name of Islam. I'm sure you would agree that they do not speak for Islam when they call for such. Such comparisons are pointless, as pointless as comparisons about Old Testament punishments and their relevance to today's Christians who live under the New Covenant. In fact, many of the Old Testament punishments such as stoning, cutting off hands and public lashing are alive and well and found in Islam... And in some parts of the world today are still used or at least the threat of their use still exists.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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Believe me.. I have been told by muslims that I as a Christian believe that Jesus being Son of God implies a physical union between Almighty God and Mary. To hear this made me feel sick, to have such blasphemy laid at the door of Christians who have never ever in the history of the world believed such a thing. Where do they get this wild idea in their head? Not the Bible for they do not read or understand it... Not from Christians because we do not believe it.. It can only come from Islam or Muslims, that they possibly misunderstand verses in the Quran is their problem not mine. I can see where the less enlightened may get that idea from these Suras such an implication can be taken. How can He have a child without a consort??? Implies that there must be a physical union for a child to result. Taken neither wife nor son..!!! Again it does rather seem from this that God needs a wife in order to have a son. Beget and begotten appears here to be used in the human sense.. Where the actual term in the Bible used is monogenes.. Which means unique.. Which is how we see Jesus.

Sura 6:102 “The originator of heavens and earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort?”


Sura 72:3 “We believe that He - exalted be the glory of our Lord - hath taken neither wife nor son.”


Sura 112:1-4 “Proclaim, 'He is the One and only GOD. The Absolute GOD. Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. None equals Him.”



and this does not seem at all incongruous to you that this almost identical passage is found in the Quran? The original from the Mishnah Sanhedrin... The Mishnah is a Jewish commentary on the Torah. It is not or ever was part of the Torah and so was not considered scripture.. Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 4:10, a Rabbi came up with the supposition that all Abel's offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications. This was a theory set out in the Mishnah by a man.... Not a decree from God. How did a Rabbi's commentary make its way into the Qur'an and be quoted as word from Allah?



this cuts both ways .. Don't you think? Which I have been saying all along. You cannot judge a religion on the actions of some of its "misguided" followers. Simply because a follower is a monk or whatever does not make them any better or worse than any other follower. They are the same human in nature as anyone else, as such are sinners.. In need of redemption. No difference from some imams calling for hatred against non muslims in the name of Islam. I'm sure you would agree that they do not speak for Islam when they call for such. Such comparisons are pointless, as pointless as comparisons about Old Testament punishments and their relevance to today's Christians who live under the New Covenant. In fact, many of the Old Testament punishments such as stoning, cutting off hands and public lashing are alive and well and found in Islam... And in some parts of the world today are still used or at least the threat of their use still exists.

Peace unto you.

You have a lot of misconception about islam in your answer, clearly even the quoted verses you have not read carefully

First : None of the muslims ever stated that christians belief god had a wife and that jesus was the product, the muslims you heard may have been those who did not read the quran or are not knowledgable enough, make sure that your argument always comes from muslim scholars. As for the verses you quoted , MAKE SURE NEXT TIME THAT you take the entire contex and read the verse carefully before MISINTERPARATING it like what you just did :

The interpritation of Quran 72: 3:

(He has taken neither a wife nor a son.) meaning, far exalted is He above taking a mate and having children. This means that when the Jinns accepted Islam and believed in the Qur'an they professed Allah's magnificence above having taken a spouse and a child (or a son).

tafseer ibn katheer


This verse states that the jinn who came denied that god had a son or a concert of any kind. The jinn never reffered to christianity in the text rather in general terms. There were pagan religions back then that believed god had wife and daughters, So why say this is about Mary and jesus???

what you mentioned in Quran 6: 102 is a mistake in reference this is not chapter 6 because the verse of 6: 102 goes as this :

That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things.

The third verse interpritation :

(He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him.) meaning, He does not have any child, parent or spouse. Mujahid said,

Tafseer ibn katheer

Again the verse is talking in general terms including christianity and paganism in general terms , there is no mention in this verse about christians believing that christians belive that mary was wife and conceived jesus out of an actual consimation with god!!!!!!!



Second : The mishnah are oral jewish traditions tracing back to the time of moses peace be upon him youi could verify for yourself because this is a basic jewish belif. So when a rabbi puts something there he beliefs it originates from god a commandment from him. Also the IF YOU HAVE READ THE VERSE you would have known that the verse was talking about a commandment in the tradition of jews. This is the begining of the verse :
Because of that, We DECREED upon the Children of Israel

I also see that you chose to ignore the passages from the bible in my last response:
For the blood section !!! The passaage you quoted contradicts many other passages in the bible!!!such as :
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)


Or this passage is talking about the innocent not during BATTLE where a soldier kills another SOLDIER

Third:
I agree and don't agree

Agree that it could work both ways

Disagree about the old testement since the old as you believe was revealed from the same trinitarian god of love which contradicts the saying of : god is love, just and all knowing

The old testement shows signs and passages that contradict this statement

peace

[Burninglight]

Man cannot become God, but God did become man in Christ Jesus. It is written in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Blessed are those who see this.

[محمد سني 1989]

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Man cannot become God, but God did become man in Christ Jesus. It is written in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Blessed are those who see this.

That is a claim (which contradicts the OT) where is the proof ????