Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

[pandora]

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--- Islam is the religion of Abraham (pbuh) and prophet Abraham who named us Muslims which means the submits to the will of The Almighty God and the obedient to Allah. Allah (pbth) said in the Holy Quran:

Please may I ask, where does it say this of Abraham in the Bible? That Abraham used the term Muslim for followers of God. Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description? The first accounts of Abraham are to be found in the Bible as we have it, even if you do not like this fact, it is still the fact. On that basis the Bible should be considered first in authority in how Abraham is portrayed, unless you can offer conclusive proof that this account of Abraham in the Bible is false. Which you cannot.

This leaves us with to differing accounts from two different religions and so it will have to come down to personal faith, logic and belief as to which account to follow. This means that I, a Christian, who hold to the Bibles authority in such matters will look to that account as truth, you will obviously look to your own.

Now ow strip away the trimmings and get down to the core message Abraham brings... Which is worship God, in truth, obedience and sincerity.. We are both doing that already, according to how we each hold our scriptures as truth.

Its simples... There is no issue here, or no bone of contention. We are talking semantics of language, which is small stuff.

peace to you my friend.

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

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Please may I ask, where does it say this of Abraham in the Bible? That Abraham used the term Muslim for followers of God. Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description? The first accounts of Abraham are to be found in the Bible as we have it, even if you do not like this fact, it is still the fact. On that basis the Bible should be considered first in authority in how Abraham is portrayed, unless you can offer conclusive proof that this account of Abraham in the Bible is false. Which you cannot.

Dear friend Pandora,

-- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Noah ,Abraham and his descendants of prophets and messengers used to worship the God of three persons in one or the one which consists of three persons ?.
-- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Jesus (pbuh) is God or he is the second hypostasis in trinity? The father is not the son or the Holy spirit .And the son is not the father or the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is not the father or the son but they are one but the three Gods are one God ? from where do you take your religion? Where are the words " hypostasis" "trinity" in the Bible in any language of the world?
-- Where in the bible that the young son god worships the old father god prostrating ,crying and begging him to help him? .Can god be beaten,be humiliated ,be insulted ,be taken off his clothes and be spit in his face. What kind of god that ????!!!! . Is that the God that all previous prophets worship ? From where do you take your religion? Who do you worship in that world?.With any heart or any eye of any mind will you meet the only true God that Jesus invited you to worship in the day of resurrection . Allah (pbth) said in the Holy Quran
:
* 42. Say: if there had been (other) gods with him, As They say,- Behold, They would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!
43. Glory to Him! He is high above all that They say!- Exalted and great (beyond measure)!(17/42-43)

* 22. If there Were, In the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion In both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what They attribute to Him!
23. He cannot be questioned for His acts, but They will be questioned (for theirs).(21/22-23)

* 3. Yet have They taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can They control death nor life nor Resurrection. (25/3)

* 23. "Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? if ((Allah)) Most gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can They deliver Me.
24. "I would indeed, if I were to do so, be In Manifest error(36/23-24).

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Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description?

--- No , Abraham ( Ibrahim in Arabic ) was not Arabic man and did not speak Arabic. He spoke his language whatever it was. But the Holy Quran was descended by Arabic language.Was Jesus (pbuh) speaking English but the Bible was descended in Aramaic language and all translations were from Aramic to any other languages.Was Moses Arabic but Allah (pbth) told us about his doings and his sayings in the Holy Quran in Arabic. Ibrahim was the father of prophets and messengers.All prophets and messengers came to the world with one message .Inviting people to worship the only true God of that universe.They came with the religion of oneness and monotheism.The religion of the pure monotheism and the complete submission to the will of Allah . The only true God that has no partner, no wife , no son , no one has seen him and no one has heard his voice. All prophets and messengers were sincere and honest in their submission to the will of Allah and their obedience to Allah. So we believe that all prophets and messengers were Mulims by the mean that muslims means submits or surrendered . I think that you will not accept that .
-- Jews clained that Abraham was Jewish and Christians claimed that Abraham was Christian.Allah jedged that matter saying :

65. Ye people of the Book! why dispute ye about Abraham, when the law and the Gospel were not revealed till after Him? have ye no understanding?

66. Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) In matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye In matters of which ye have no knowledge? it is Allah who knows, and ye who know not!

67. Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but He was true In Faith, and bowed His will to Allah.s (which is Islam), and He joined not gods with Allah.(3/65-67)

-- Ibraham was a model to all prophets and messengers .He was a fantastic model in his sencer submission and his obedience to the will of Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) followed him. Muhammad is one of the descendants of Abraham because he was in the descendant of Ismael the son of Abraham.Abraham invited his people to worship the only true God saying in the Quran :

83. Verily among those who followed His way was Abraham.
84. Behold! He approached His Lord with a sound heart.
85. Behold! He said to His father and to His people, "What is that which ye worship?
86. "Is it a falsehood- gods other than Allah. that ye desire?
87. "Then what is your idea about the Lord of the worlds?"(37/83-87)

-- I hope that I have answered your questions.

[pandora]

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Dear friend Pandora, -- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Noah ,Abraham and his descendants of prophets and messengers used to worship the God of three persons in one or the one which consists of three persons ?.-- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Jesus (pbuh) is God or he is the second hypostasis in trinity? The father is not the son or the Holy spirit .And the son is not the father or the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is not the father or the son but they are one but the three Gods are one God ? from where do you take your religion? Where are the words " hypostasis" "trinity" in the Bible in any language of the world?

Friend, I am beiginning to think that you pay no heed to my posts or maybe that my words are at fault and they lack clarity, that we seem to be covering the same points. Where do you think Christians got their belief in the trinity from if not from the Bible? It was always to be found there, of course the Prophets did worship the same God as we have now, for it was this same God..YHWH.. That gave them this knowledge through revelation. If you are talking of the word ~ Trinity ~ then for sure you will not find that. No more than you will find the word ~ Tawheed ~ in the Quran, yet the concept of oneness is there to be found throughout its pages, is it not? The term Trinity, was coined years after the death and resurrection of the Christ but that does not mean it was a new invented concept, it was not. Same goes for ~ Hypotasis ~ these are words used by men seeking to describe in simple terms how God revealed Himself to us in the Bible. Why would God have to describe Himself to us in words.. Or better for mans gradual understanding and enlightenment by deeds and examples? I attach an article that explains the Trinity revealed in the Old Testament, seeing as the Old testament predates the Gospels by near on a thousand years I hope you can see that the Gospels did not "invent" the trinity concept, they just clarified what was always there... “Trinity” is a term used to describe the idea of one God existing in three distinct Persons, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a 4th Century invention, its roots are found in the Old Testament.Plural Words Are Used To Describe God Throughout The Old TestamentThe Bible begins with these words:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)The word ‘God’ is the Hebrew word ‘elohiym’. Elohiym is the plural form of the word God. It implies unity in plurality.While modern scholars argue back and forth about this word usage the ancient rabbis understood that the plural usage was a legitimate point as this passage from Genesis Rabbah shows:Rabbi Samuel ben Nahman said in Rabbi Jonathan’s name: “When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID; LET US MAKE MAN, etc., he said: ‘Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics?’ [for maintaining a plurality of deity]. ‘Write,’ replied He; ‘whoever wishes to err may err.’”And while we don’t endorse the theology found in the Zohar, their commentary on the Shema, the declaration that the Lord is one from Deuteronomy 6:4, is interesting:“Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unitySome Subtle Examples Of The TrinityIn the Old Testament we find that God has organized many biblical ideas in trinitarian ways.The Old Testament itself is a “trinity” being made up of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The same is true for the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel is also a trinity, being made up of priests, Levites, and Israelites. The Jews pray three times a day in the morning, afternoon, and evenings.In Numbers 6:24-26 the Lord gives a three-fold blessing and in Isaiah 6:3 the angels give God three-fold praise crying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.”Does all this prove the Trinity? No, but it does open the door to the possibility, and should encourage us to continue our study. Ultimately the issue has to be decided by Scripture, which is where we’ll now turn our attention.God Mentioned As Two Distinct PersonalitiesFor example:Psalm 110The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”God anoints God in Psalm 45You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.God is speaking and says He’ll save Israel by the Lord, their God in Hosea 1“Yet I [God] will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”The Lord rains fire from the Lord in Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”God is sent by God in Zechariah 2:8-9:“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”God sends His messenger, the Lord, who will come to His temple in Malachi 3“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.”We find God and His Son in Proverb 30:4:Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you know?God gives the nations to His Son in Psalm 2:7-8:The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession.From God will come a Ruler who is eternal, of old, from everlasting in Micah 5:2:But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.God Is Mentioned As Three Distinct PersonalitiesThere are a couple of wonderful examples of the Trinity in Isaiah:In this passage the speaker is God who has been sent by the Lord God and the Holy Spirit. This passage is very clearly shows the Trinity. Isaiah 48:12,16-17:Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.”The Lord became the Savior but it wasn’t the Father, but the Angel of His Presence (A term referring to the physical manifestation of God), and we also have the Holy Spirit who was grieved when the people rebelled. Isaiah 63:7-10:I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted,And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old.But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.The Memra, The Word Of The LordIt’s interesting to see the way the ancient rabbis handled verses like the ones above. In the Targums, which are Aramaic translations of the Old Testament, the Aramaic word ‘Memra’, which means the ‘Word’ or ‘The Word of the Lord’, is used when physical manifestations of God appear or when God is mentioned more than once in the same verse. Here are a few examples from the Targums:The Memra acts as a mediator between the Father and Creation:And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you (Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7)And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17)The Memra is God and is worshiped as such:And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If the Word [Memra] of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra] of Lord be my God. (Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21)And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and said, “You are Lord who does see, but You cannot be seen.” (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14)The Memra is God, yet is a separate personality from the Father and Holy Spirit:And the Word [Memra] of the Lord caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the Lord in heaven. (Targum Jonathan on Gen. 19:24)And Israel saw the great strong hand of God, what He did to the Egyptians. They feared God and believed in His Word [Memra] and in His servant Moses. (Onkeles Targum on Exodus 14:31)The Memra is Jesus:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4)The Greek word for Memra is Logos, which in English translates to “The Word”. So what John 1 is saying that Jesus is the Memra, the Word. He is fully God yet distinct from the Father and is the mediator between the Father and Creation. “No one comes to the Father except by Me.”The concept of the Trinity has biblical support in the Old Testament. We see one God yet we also see clearly separate personalities. We see plurality in unity.Some people want a God who is simpler than His creation. But that isn’t the God of the Bible. The Trinity is a concept we can’t truly understand, but can only get a faint idea of. C.S. Lewis summed it up well in Mere Christianity when he said:“On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings – just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures.On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God’s dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube.Of course, we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint of something super-personal – something more than a person.”http://biblestudyplanet.com/the-trin...ld-testament/I will continue with your other points another time. I hope you will appreciate that this is the period of Lent and a holy time for Christians, I have other demands on my time.Peace to you.

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear friend Pandora,
You doubted before that Jesus in the Bible is not "Eesa" or "Iesa" in the Holy Quran.I will prove to you that the name "Eesa" is the original name of Jesus (pbuh) in the Aramic language .The original language of the Bible. It is well known in the translation of names that they are kept as they were in pronunciation inspite of the changes in letters. . There is substantial convergence between the Aramaic and Arabic languages.Also there are differences for expmble :
The letter س in Arabic = s in English = sh in Aramic language.If we see the dictionary of Aramic – English you will see :
· ALAAHAA - - - - God
· EESHO - - - - Jesus
· MSHEEKHAA - - - - Christ
· MSHEEKHOOTAA - - - - Christianity
--- Eesa or Iesa in Arabic is the same pronunciation in Aramic language but the letter س or s is being uttered sh.Then Eesa must be found in The Bible but they translated it to the other languages.That is of course wrong.
-- You will notice that the name of the Almihgty God "Allah" is the original name of Allah in all his Holy Books.It must have not been translated to any other languages.That is very wrong and that made a lot of troubles.
-- You will notice that the word "Messiah" is found in the Aramic language but it is uttered "MSHEEKHAA"with sh as the same rule.
-- please read more of that words in the Aramic language in the following link :
http://www.learnassyrian.com/aramaic/church/church.html

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear friend Pandora,

I am so sorry that you will leave. I have enjoyed your discussion.I am so sorry if I perhaps disturbed you some times. I am not a demon, also I am not a saint. I never wanted to attract you to Islam . I am an ignorant poor man who saw a smart friend lady hurrying and was about to be dropped into a big hole full of fire and he wanted to take her away. I am not exaggerating in my words but the matter is more of that. It is Paradise or hellfire. The summit of happiness and Joy or the summit of unhappiness , misery and abandonment . In fact that trinity is a satanic idea that did not satisfy Allah , Jesus or all prophets and messengers.No one or no nation has done that except idolaters befor . Please,trust me, any one believes that God is three persons in one or one God in three persons and died on that faith will not smell paradise. Also any one believes that God (Allah) has a son or Jesus (pbuh) is God or a son of God will cast the same fate . I think I supplied you with verses from the Holy Quran to prove that.Of course , you are free to accept that or deny that.I hope that you search for truth well and to turn to discuss the matter again and thank you again...I hope that Allah (pbth) help you and guide you and me to the straight way with my greetings.

[pandora]

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Dear friend Pandora,

I am so sorry that you will leave. I have enjoyed your discussion.I am so sorry if I perhaps disturbed you some times. I am not a demon, also I am not a saint. I never wanted to attract you to Islam . I am an ignorant poor man who saw a smart friend lady hurrying and was about to be dropped into a big hole full of fire and he wanted to take her away. I am not exaggerating in my words but the matter is more of that. It is Paradise or hellfire. The summit of happiness and Joy or the summit of unhappiness , misery and abandonment . In fact that trinity is a satanic idea that did not satisfy Allah , Jesus or all prophets and messengers.No one or no nation has done that except idolaters befor . Please,trust me, any one believes that God is three persons in one or one God in three persons and died on that faith will not smell paradise. Also any one believes that God (Allah) has a son or Jesus (pbuh) is God or a son of God will cast the same fate . I think I supplied you with verses from the Holy Quran to prove that.Of course , you are free to accept that or deny that.I hope that you search for truth well and to turn to discuss the matter again and thank you again...I hope that Allah (pbth) help you and guide you and me to the straight way with my greetings.

Hello friend, it was not due to you or our dialogue that I needed to take a break. God had other plans for me during Lent that is all.

It appears you see things in simple terms and do not allow yourself question or doubt. That is fine. It is not in your power to save me from hellfire ..that alone is in the remit of God the Father who through the power of His divine love has granted me salvation through The Lord Christ Jesus. You are measuring my eternal fate by your Islamic ideals and as I am not a Muslim they do not apply to me. Do you believe God only grants muslims Paradise? Or would it be fairer to assume that each of us who faithfully worship God as God has shown Himself to our individual understanding would be judged on our own merits and pay the price of sin accordingly? If you really believe that only muslims will gain paradise.. And it would seem from what I have read there are no guarantees and you can never know if your good deeds will ever be enough. This is a great unknown in Islam... So if you think that paradise can only be the preserve of muslims ..what then of all the other created souls who love and worship God according to their own Holy Scriptures?

You our ask me to trade a certainty for an unknown. It does not sound like a good deal to me. Supplying me with verses from the Quran which show an improper understanding of how Christians view God as a triune being is not conclusive proof of anything. Every time I hear the blasphemous reference to God having a "Son" I feel like weeping... how is it possible for the Quran to even infer anything that no Christian has ever believed. Who was the Quran's message sent for?

I know now you mean well in your efforts, but really greater understanding would be possible if you listened to what Christians actually believe and not what Islam thinks we believe. I don't know.. Maybe that is not possible.

Peace to you.

[pandora]

Quote

Dear friend Pandora,
You doubted before that Jesus in the Bible is not "Eesa" or "Iesa" in the Holy Quran.I will prove to you that the name "Eesa" is the original name of Jesus (pbuh) in the Aramic language .The original language of the Bible. It is well known in the translation of names that they are kept as they were in pronunciation inspite of the changes in letters. . There is substantial convergence between the Aramaic and Arabic languages.Also there are differences for expmble :
The letter س in Arabic = s in English = sh in Aramic language.If we see the dictionary of Aramic – English you will see :
· ALAAHAA - - - - God
· EESHO - - - - Jesus
· MSHEEKHAA - - - - Christ
· MSHEEKHOOTAA - - - - Christianity
--- Eesa or Iesa in Arabic is the same pronunciation in Aramic language but the letter س or s is being uttered sh.Then Eesa must be found in The Bible but they translated it to the other languages.That is of course wrong.
-- You will notice that the name of the Almihgty God "Allah" is the original name of Allah in all his Holy Books.It must have not been translated to any other languages.That is very wrong and that made a lot of troubles.
-- You will notice that the word "Messiah" is found in the Aramic language but it is uttered "MSHEEKHAA"with sh as the same rule.
-- please read more of that words in the Aramic language in the following link :
http://www.learnassyrian.com/aramaic/church/church.html

You have proved nothing of substance here. Eesa or Iesa or Isa however you wish to interpret the name of The Christ in Arabic is immaterial. The language of the Bible was never Arabic, it was Hebrew, Aramaic and koine Greek. Jesus is nothing but an English translation. We know Jesus as His true name Yeshua.

Allah is the Arabic name for God, it was never used by any books of either the Old Testament or the New Testament. God told mankind His name was I AM.. God of the Bible was never called by the Arabic name Allah because Arabic was not the language used. True.. Aramaic has some similarities, but it is not the same. Arabic Christians will no doubt refer to God as Allah.... But their prayers will be to YHWH.. God of the Bible.

Thank you you for the link though it was thoughtful of you to include it.

Peace to you.

[pandora]

I'm sorry my friend I feel the time has come for me to leave this place. I have enjoyed our dialogue. Maybe I will return after a break and if you are still around we can continue our dialogue if you wish.

Peace and blessings to you. May Gods love shine upon you and guide you towards His divine and everlasting light.