Jesus A Prophet of GOD Muslims

[Burninglight]

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It tells us to believe in REAL prophets . That includes the ones Quran named and ones it didn't name . And for the record , prophet Muhammad peace upon him is the last of the prophets and messengers with the last message to mankind . Anyone who shows up after that claiming prophecy is a false one to us by default .]

Mormons say that the prophet Joseph Smith who is a false prophet is the last prophet (Seal of prophets), but Jesus said many false prophets would come after Him deceiving many. We believe Jesus. When you say our Holy Bible is corrupted, you are attacking Christianity, but I can handle it. That is not my battle. The battle is the Lord's. If I say anything about the Quran heaven help me.

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We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .]

We see how the Bible speaks of the wickedness in the heart of man. Faith is the substance of the things we hope for and evidence of what is not seen. It is better than a known path. We are saved by God's grace through faith not by good deeds, because it could never satisfy the perfect justice of God. The wages of sin is death, but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus only.

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you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .

Man can make logic and reason his god and miss the mark and plan of God's salvation. We need to know when to stop follow religion and follow God. We can only know this by God's grace through faith.

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I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .

That gap between us you speak of is bridged by the cross of Jesus Christ. Without the cross you have no bridge at all to God.

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First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident .....

I didn't say it had to be backed by science, but when you say there is a visible crack in or on the moon to proof the Moon was spilt, isn't that what you are trying to do?

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trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .

It is true that it can be said of any religion, but not every religion says this miracle was done for the only purpose of showing God's power. You said, I force slander? What I am I doing that you aren't doing or haven't done???

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And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :

The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?.

I never said Muslims worship the moon; so don't put words in my mouth. Read carefully what I wrote. I said "there seems to be moon based things I don't understand" I didn't say it is that way. I used the words seems, and I don't understand, and I said nothing about you worshipping the moon. You ask what about the cross? What about it? It is not the same as kissing a black stone. What is the difference between Catholics kissing a stone statue of Mary or saints and Muslims kissing a black stone. I see both as idolatry. I was born and raised Catholic. I could see when I needed to stop following religion and follow God. Can you? The cross is a symbol of Christianity and not an object of worship. It shows we believe Jesus died for our sin and rose from the dead and we do very much worship the word of God in the form of Jesus. Jesus to us Christians is not a messenger; He is the Message.

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Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .
So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .
[/CENTER]

I never said Jesus walking on water was done to prove God's power even though it does. I have not embarrassed myself, and I don't mind if you treat me the way I treat you or others, but you are not doing that. You appear to be on the defensive and insecurely attacking my person. If you can address issues instead of the person the way I have been and in the depth I have, I might just end up being a Muslim, but I haven't seen anyone come close especially you pal. Nevertheless, blessing to you and may you come to the knowledge of truth.

[نصير الدين]

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Does it give you a criteria by which to judge the true from the false?

I fear to say something inaccurate about my religion so I'll only mention what I'm certain of . For example , a prophet can't possibly contradict his message in any way as Allah says :

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4:82 Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

Secondly , he can't possibly die before fulfilling the message . Thirdly , it can't be a woman as Quran says :

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12:109 And We sent not before you [as messengers] except men to whom We revealed from among the people of cities. So have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? And the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah ; then will you not reason?

And a woman honestly can't whistand the hardships prophets indured for the message of teh almighty .

Then again , I did say that there can't be a prophet after Muhammad peace upon him as this is a pure Islamic belief . As for charecters through history and how to tell if they're prophets or not , we never say who is without an evidence from Quran or Sunnah .

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with all due respect, majority opinion is not a measure of logic.

Wait what ? Which part of what I said do you mean ?

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Scientific and numerical miracles are found in all areas of life, and certainly in relation to mathematical sequences they can be found in all books within word patterns. They are not miraculous in themselves. Otherwise if we were to find the same numerical sequences in say.. The works of Shakespeare then are we to take it his works are if divine origin? Don't think so.

I beg your pardon ? Where did I say anything about some Da Vinci code or whatever they call it ? Anyway , what I mean when I say miracles on all scales include science , history , future , and others . As for science , it's when Quran or Sunnah tell us facts about things which cannot have been known to people at the time or at least to the prophet . As for history , it's when it tells us things that happened in the past and then we discover that they're true . As for future , these are prophecies of the future which are fulfilled . Some might take vague sayings and claim that they're real prophecies or that they contain scientific miracles , but there are ways to tell the true from false .

I just wanted to say this , but it's not really into the current subject .

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maybe I did not explain well.. I meant by relying on logical proofs that conform to our understanding of science, logic etc. in current time. Then if and when someone in the future comes along and proves that wrong then your basis for belief could crumble.

Understandable .

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If you have pure faith, that God is all powerful nothing can assail that because you cannot prove it by means of human understanding.

In honesty , my faith is based on believing in Islam after seeing proofs of it . Scientific ones come second after the pure message itself . They're additional , but we don't base our belief on them . And that's why there have been many who warn some eager Muslims from interpreting signs to come up with a miracle basing their explanations on theories or hypothesis which might and might not be right . Instead , they should base them on pure and clear facts .

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all I can say on this last section of your post is.... It must be a man thing!!!! Tut..

A man what ?

[pandora]

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I fear to say something inaccurate about my religion so I'll only mention what I'm certain of . For example , a prophet can't possibly contradict his message in any way as Allah says :

Greetings Nasiir.. I see, although I'm not sure how a prophet not contradicting his message counts as a criteria against falsehood prophethood that one can measure.

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Secondly , he can't possibly die before fulfilling the message . Thirdly , it can't be a woman as Quran says :

Protection from Premature death would be a given, as a prophet would be protected by God until his work was complete. Likewise goes for a woman. We have a number of women prophets mentioned in the Bible.. As in Gods eyes men and women are spiritually equal.. And it's by the spirit we are strengthened. They were strengthened by God for the task He assigned them. Maybe we see the actually "job description" of a prophet differently between our respective faiths? For sure at times it was probably arduous, but God would never make it harder than the person could bear. Also there are many ways of delivering Gods revelation.

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And a woman honestly can't whistand the hardships prophets indured for the message of teh almighty .

As a woman I could take exception to that.. ;) women are certainly no strangers to hardship, in fact in most conflicts women suffer the hardest if blessed with children to care for they suffer on their behalf also. Yet.. Have immense inner strength to prevail over adversity. God made woman as partner to man in matching his outer physical strength by her inner spiritual strength. Through faith we are made strong in any situation God places us in according to His will.

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Then again , I did say that there can't be a prophet after Muhammad peace upon him as this is a pure Islamic belief . As for charecters through history and how to tell if they're prophets or not , we never say who is without an evidence from Quran or Sunnah .

Yes, this is according to your belief and according to mine Jesus said With Him it was finished.. So Christians would not be expecting any prophets after Jesus.. As we do not see what they could add. That's why we must test the prophets and that's why IMHO the Prophet of Islam and Joseph Smith do not meet the criteria that I am told to judge by.

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Wait what ? Which part of what I said do you mean ?

?? I believe you said that because the majority of people were of the opinion Prophet Mohammed was an honest man therefore it follows he must be... Or something to that affect. This is not really accurate or logical.. People can appear to be something they are not and people have been fooled by people like this. Please don't take it as I mean Prophet Mohammed just appeared to be good or honest.. I don't mean that at all. I expect he was all of that. I'm just saying it's not accurate to use it as logical evidence of the fact.

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I beg your pardon ? Where did I say anything about some Da Vinci code or whatever they call it ? Anyway , what I mean when I say miracles on all scales include science , history , future , and others . As for science , it's when Quran or Sunnah tell us facts about things which cannot have been known to people at the time or at least to the prophet . As for history , it's when it tells us things that happened in the past and then we discover that they're true . As for future , these are prophecies of the future which are fulfilled . Some might take vague sayings and claim that they're real prophecies or that they contain scientific miracles , but there are ways to tell the true from false .

where did I mention the Da Vinci code???? I was making a point that mathematical probabilities are part of the order of the universe.. It that way they could be miraculous but being used to claim proof of divinity I think as a theory it falls short as it can equally be found in other books that are certainly not considered divinely inspired. Same goes for science.. And I think muslims some put far too much emphasis on so called scientific proofs when at times they were already known to mankind. It's foolishness.

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I just wanted to say this , but it's not really into the current subject .

Consider it said and consider it read. :)

Understandable .

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In honesty , my faith is based on believing in Islam after seeing proofs of it . Scientific ones come second after the pure message itself . They're additional , but we don't base our belief on them . And that's why there have been many who warn some eager Muslims from interpreting signs to come up with a miracle basing their explanations on theories or hypothesis which might and might not be right . Instead , they should base them on pure and clear facts .

I agree with what you say here. Signs and miracles are one thing, but if you need them to prove your religion is truth.. Then I see no room for faith.

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A man what ?

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No matter.. I was being slightly facetious .. My bad. :)

peace to you

[Burninglight]

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And a woman honestly can't whistand the hardships prophets indured for the message of teh almighty .

Really, why is that?

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Then again , I did say that there can't be a prophet after Muhammad peace upon him as this is a pure Islamic belief . As for charecters through history and how to tell if they're prophets or not , we never say who is without an evidence from Quran or Sunnah .

Really, what is that?

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Wait what ? Which part of what I said do you mean ?

Most if not all.

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I beg your pardon ? Where did I say anything about some Da Vinci code or whatever they call it ? Anyway , what I mean when I say miracles on all scales include science , history , future , and others . As for science , it's when Quran or Sunnah tell us facts about things which cannot have been known to people at the time or at least to the prophet . As for history , it's when it tells us things that happened in the past and then we discover that they're true . As for future , these are prophecies of the future which are fulfilled . Some might take vague sayings and claim that they're real prophecies or that they contain scientific miracles , but there are ways to tell the true from false .

Do please list them.

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In honesty , my faith is based on believing in Islam after seeing proofs of it . Scientific ones come second after the pure message itself . They're additional , but we don't base our belief on them . And that's why there have been many who warn some eager Muslims from interpreting signs to come up with a miracle basing their explanations on theories or hypothesis which might and might not be right . Instead , they should base them on pure and clear facts .

What proofs have you seen?

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A man what ?

She said "A man thing." I could be wrong, but I took it as she is trying to say that what you share appears or seems to be an Arabic man's faith. Because, you say the woman can't handle the spiritual things men can in your description; we understand women are the ones who fill hell according to Islamic tradition, woman have or are half wits compared to men, and they are in need to be beaten from time to time. A female child can be given away in marriage before she knows what life, the birds and the bees are about, men get 72 virgins, but what to the virgins get? Woman appear to the be the property of men. I think I understand what she means by it must be "A man thing." Why would you ask, "A man what?" I mean no offense to you or your religion. I am just calling it the way I believe a Christian woman sees it. I thought she made an appropriate comment.

Peace be unto you.

[pandora]

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She said "A man thing." I could be wrong, but I took it as she is trying to say that what you share appears or seems to be an Arabic man's faith. Because, you say the woman can't handle the spiritual things men can in your description; we understand women are the ones who fill hell according to Islamic tradition, woman have or are half wits compared to men, and they are in need to be beaten from time to time. A female child can be given away in marriage before she knows what life, the birds and the bees are about, men get 72 virgins, but what to the virgins get? Woman appear to the be the property of men. I think I understand what she means by it must be "A man thing." Why would you ask, "A man what?" I mean no offense to you or your religion. I am just calling it the way I believe a Christian woman sees it. I thought she made an appropriate comment.

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not it quite what I had in mind.. :) I just see men and women approach things in life differently. Which sometimes is quite a good thing. :)

may God bless and keep you. :)

[Burninglight]

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..

not it quite what I had in mind.. :) I just see men and women approach things in life differently. Which sometimes is quite a good thing. :)

may God bless and keep you. :)

Well, now that you put it that way, I agree with you and enjoy doing it.
Blessings to you

[نصير الدين]

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Protection from Premature death would be a given, as a prophet would be protected by God until his work was complete. Likewise goes for a woman. We have a number of women prophets mentioned in the Bible.. As in Gods eyes men and women are spiritually equal.. And it's by the spirit we are strengthened. They were strengthened by God for the task He assigned them. Maybe we see the actually "job description" of a prophet differently between our respective faiths? For sure at times it was probably arduous, but God would never make it harder than the person could bear. Also there are many ways of delivering Gods revelation.

I see .

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As a woman I could take exception to that.. ;) women are certainly no strangers to hardship, in fact in most conflicts women suffer the hardest if blessed with children to care for they suffer on their behalf also. Yet.. Have immense inner strength to prevail over adversity. God made woman as partner to man in matching his outer physical strength by her inner spiritual strength. Through faith we are made strong in any situation God places us in according to His will.

I didn't say women are strangers to hardships . In fact , one of the first martyrs in Islam was a woman named Sumayyah bint (daughter of) Al-Khayyat along with her husband Yasir may Allah be pleased of them . Still , I don't think we need scientific research and the such to admit a given that males are physically stronger . Faith is important , but Islam isn't just about faith , but work as well . For that , Muslims worked and tried to fulfil the reasons of victory and success in peace and war . It's honestly the first time I know that there are women as prophets in the Bible . Then again , each have their teachings and beliefs .

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Yes, this is according to your belief and according to mine Jesus said With Him it was finished.. So Christians would not be expecting any prophets after Jesus.. As we do not see what they could add. That's why we must test the prophets and that's why IMHO the Prophet of Islam and Joseph Smith do not meet the criteria that I am told to judge by.

Fair enough . You could start a thread later - And I think the forum is closed during Ramadan - to discuss and compare if you like .

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?? I believe you said that because the majority of people were of the opinion Prophet Mohammed was an honest man therefore it follows he must be... Or something to that affect. This is not really accurate or logical.. People can appear to be something they are not and people have been fooled by people like this. Please don't take it as I mean Prophet Mohammed just appeared to be good or honest.. I don't mean that at all. I expect he was all of that. I'm just saying it's not accurate to use it as logical evidence of the fact.

Honesty is a condition of a real prophet , but it's not the only one , there are many others . I'm just saying that honesty is indeed a charecteristic of the prophet peace upon him . And logically , it is impossible for a person to live 40 years pretending to be someone he is not without slips here and there . His people knew him and he was among them his whole life . They even entrusted him with their belongins AFTER the revelation which they fought against ! Not to mention that when he left to Madinah (Enlightened city) , he left his cousin Ali may Allah be pleased of him to return them to their owners ! The point is that no one can deny the fact that the prophet peace upon him was truthful and honest . No person can pull such an act his whole life which we have recorded .

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where did I mention the Da Vinci code???? I was making a point that mathematical probabilities are part of the order of the universe.. It that way they could be miraculous but being used to claim proof of divinity I think as a theory it falls short as it can equally be found in other books that are certainly not considered divinely inspired. Same goes for science.. And I think muslims some put far too much emphasis on so called scientific proofs when at times they were already known to mankind. It's foolishness.

I'm seripusly beginning to get lost here . And since I didn't mention mathematical probabilities or such a thing , I'll drop it . As for scientific evidence , there are either ones unknown to anyone at the time , or ones known to some who the prophet could have never known of . And IF he was able to reach their records which are in far lands in different languages without someone noticing him , how could he ONLY take the right and leave the wrong ? Anyway , you could later make a thread for this as well .

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Really, why is that?

I did say Islam isn't about faith alone . And seeing how the prophets indured hardships and harm from their people to the degree of being killed in cases , it's safe to say a woman can't handle that . It's a no brainer that males are physically stronger . Just don't go and accuse me of sexism and the whole usual thing .

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Really, what is that?

Evidence from Quran or Sunnah = Sayings of Quran and Sunnah .

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Because, you say the woman can't handle the spiritual things men can in your description

You have until the sun rises from west - or until one of us dies - to show me where I said women can't handle "spiritual things" . I was talking about physicall capabilities . Then again , you have the talent of taking my words into a whole different direction .

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we understand women are the ones who fill hell according to Islamic tradition, woman have or are half wits compared to men, and they are in need to be beaten from time to time.

I present you the definition of this serious issue you have with spamming slanders :

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The red herring is as much a debate tactic as it is a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic. This can be one of the most frustrating, and effective, fallacies to observe.

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The fallacy gets its name from fox hunting, specifically from the practice of using smoked herrings, which are red, to distract hounds from the scent of their quarry. Just as a hound may be prevented from catching a fox by distracting it with a red herring, so an arguer may be prevented from proving his point by distracting him with a tangential issue.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/red-herring/

And from wikipedia :

The idiom "red herring" is used to refer to something that misleads or distracts from the relevant or important issue.^[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or characters towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of a rhetorical strategy (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation as a result of poor logic.

So don't think you're fooling us if you end each post with "Peace to you" . Your acts speak louder than your words . Wait , actually , your words themselves speak louder than each other .

[pandora]

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I didn't say women are strangers to hardships . In fact , one of the first martyrs in Islam was a woman named Sumayyah bint (daughter of) Al-Khayyat along with her husband Yasir may Allah be pleased of them . Still , I don't think we need scientific research and the such to admit a given that males are physically stronger . Faith is important , but Islam isn't just about faith , but work as well . For that , Muslims worked and tried to fulfil the reasons of victory and success in peace and war . It's honestly the first time I know that there are women as prophets in the Bible . Then again , each have their teachings and beliefs .

Here is some information on women prophets in the Bible..if you wish to read about them, maybe after Ramadan. I don't know why no woman prophet ever got a mention in the Quran.

http://stronginfaith.org/article.php?page=90

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Fair enough . You could start a thread later - And I think the forum is closed during Ramadan - to discuss and compare if you

like .

Maybe, perhaps you could look up Joseph Smith and why 5 million people believe in his prophethood.

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Honesty is a condition of a real prophet , but it's not the only one , there are many others . I'm just saying that honesty is indeed a charecteristic of the prophet peace upon him . And logically , it is impossible for a person to live 40 years pretending to be someone he is not without slips here and there . His people knew him and he was among them his whole life . They even entrusted him with their belongins AFTER the revelation which they fought against ! Not to mention that when he left to Madinah (Enlightened city) , he left his cousin Ali may Allah be pleased of him to return them to their owners ! The point is that no one can deny the fact that the prophet peace upon him was truthful and honest . No person can pull such an act his whole life which we have recorded .

I don't think I implied the Prophet Mohammed was not honest in his dealings with people. I don't see this honesty is evidence that the revelation he received was what he believed it to be. It's possible for a person to be honestly convinced of something that may not be true.

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I'm seripusly beginning to get lost here . And since I didn't mention mathematical probabilities or such a thing , I'll drop it . As for scientific evidence , there are either ones unknown to anyone at the time , or ones known to some who the prophet could have never known of . And IF he was able to reach their records which are in far lands in different languages without someone noticing him , how could he ONLY take the right and leave the wrong ? Anyway , you could later make a thread for this as well .

lol... I think you mentioned the Da Vinci Code.. I certainly would not have done so. :) I personally don't attach any importance in these so called scientific miracles. My faith does not rely on them. However.. If the slightest possibility exists that something in the realms of science was known to mankind before it was recorded in the Quran.. Then it can't in all honesty be considered miraculous.

May God bless and guide you.

[Burninglight]

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I don't think I implied the Prophet Mohammed was not honest in his dealings with people. I don't see this honesty is evidence that the revelation he received was what he believed it to be. It's possible for a person to be honestly convinced of something that may not be true.

This is true. It is also possible to be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

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lol... I think you mentioned the Da Vinci Code.. I certainly would not have done so. :) I personally don't attach any importance in these so called scientific miracles. My faith does not rely on them. However.. If the slightest possibility exists that something in the realms of science was known to mankind before it was recorded in the Quran.. Then it can't in all honesty be considered miraculous.

May God bless and guide you.

I think some people confuse the supernatural with the miraculous. Miracles are supernatural, but not all supernatural events are miracles. Satan and his demons operate in the supernatural realm perform supernatural signs and wonders, but only God does miracles.

Blessings to you!

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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We will continue to love and honour the prophets each according to our beliefs.

in this way the christianity honor and respect the prophets !

Genesis 19

34 - And on the day after, the older daughter said to the younger, Last night I was with my father; let us make him take much wine this night again, and do you go to him, so that we may have offspring by our father.

35-And that night again they made their father take much wine; and the younger daughter went into his bed; and he had no knowledge of when she went in or when she went away

36- And so the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father.