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Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
You are right when you said this subject took more than enough so I will try to make my answer brief , since your response did not actually directly relate to what I said so it will be short



So it all comes back to what you said about the testifying of the torah , which I have answered already

By the way No they did not alter the original Torah written by the hand of Moses peace be upon him nor the one in the ark that is the muslim belief but through time they did make false copies of the writtings and especially after the Ark was lost when nebocanusur (sorry for the miss spell) , they started writting what they liked not what was the

My point being is that if you are right in the testifying of the torah in the ark say , then your example would be flaud and only limited to before the babylonian captivity period since the ark was lost after that !!!!!
Hallelujah... At last you have got the point I have been trying to get across all this time!!!!! Your only aberration here.. Is assuming that the thirteenth copy kept in the Ark was the only copy of the original message as given to prophet Moses. As I already proved there were twelve other exact copies given to the twelve tribes. So if the Ark was lost it does not follow that people were left without the law of the Torah. BTW... Do you know there is some "experts" of the opinion the S to is buried beneath Temple Mount. As it is now in the hands of the muslims permission will never be granted to excavate to find out for sure.. So we may never know. Some also say it is in Ethiopia and some believe it was taken back to Heaven. So as any discussion on the Ark and it's whereabouts can only be speculation. Let's not go there. Also.. We are in agreement about scribes making false copies of writings. Which is what prophet Jeremiah is talking about and what the Bible commentaries claimed. Which leaves me to beg the question.... What on earth have you been objecting to? As we agree on this... The only point we differ on is that you seem to believe that the false writings took the place of the true original message of the Torah. Which we know is not the case. If it were God would not have told the prophets after this time to hold to the Torah law and abide by its message. It had to still be in existence for God to make this demand.

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Again they were making false copies of the original

However they would not have to make a lot of convincing to the Israelites. History shows us that even after the israelites crossed the red sea and saw all of god's miracles and proofs , they still worshipped the golden calf and they kept on going to paganism every chance they had until prophet Jerimiah came so that would not be something unbelievable from the israelites at that time
This is your opinion. We also see that despite the Israelites weakness and constant slipping back into the sin of idolatry God never forsook them. That's Gods love for you..

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This is a smokescreen answer with all do respect . You chose not to answer my ligitemate question :

Why did it not testify against the writers of the dead sea scrolls and the Sumeritans !!!!!????

plus your argument is based upon the ark which was lost at the babylonian invasion , so what about after !!???
Do you mean the Samaritans? And the fact they had their own "version" of the Torah? I don't really know enough about the Samaritans .. Other than they were an offshoot of Judaism as they did not exist during the time of Moses and Samaritans were not known for several hundred years after the exodus. I'm not sure what your point is. The original Torah testifies for itself.

In regards to the loss of the Ark as I already mentioned above.. There was still the twelve Torah scrolls given to the twelve tribes.

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This is your response to the fact that pulpits objection actually was for the case of the manipulation of the literal writtings not against it !!!!

Why do you take it as an attack !!!

I find what you are saying here is actually kind of an attempt to shut an eye on the truth, and use just one eye. I mean it is clear that you are willing to take your own opinion over the opinion of experts!!!! But what amazes me more is you asserting that your opinion is the opinion of the bible , I mean this is clearly not true!!

If we take the passage at face value we will see phrases such as the lying pen , scribes and I think that would have been enough
I was not aware I was taking anything as an attack.. Agreed .. Taking the phrase lying pen of scribes at face value would have saved a lot of time. That of course does not take into account the obvious different ways we each see the same account. I have explained why I see it as I do.

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And how do you know that Jesus peace be upon him taught your version of the Torah !!???
Because Jesus was a Jew.... So he would have taught the Torah as it was given to Moses. Which is the one we have now.

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Happy to

And we could talk also about how pagan Roman and Hindu influences found their way in the new testament
Maybe best in a separate thread. Hindu influences... Indeedy. Will it be a two way discussion? I mean... What about the pagan influences found in the Quran? If the aim of Gods message through prophets is to bring people away from paganism and towards Him, then aspects of paganism will be found. However, it is quite clear in what context.. That is paganism is not the way to God.

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You have said nothing in the previous post to prove that they were in agreement, on the contrary you stood firm and you even elluded to the idea that the opinion of these scholars are sometimes not important!!!
We'll leave it there then.

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Actually I do understand the context of Jerimiah and the fact that what you added in pulpit's commentary turned out to be backing up my claim shows that you did not read what pulpit actually said or even understood it. Your claim is based on an author of an article in a christian- muslim debate link which happened to go against some of the scholarly interpritation and also against the simple reading of the passage!!!
To sum up... The original Torah remains unchanged.. The lying scribes.. As denounced by prophet Jeremiah.. Were guilty of distributing their own written interpretations of the law. Thus leading people astray from the true law of God. I thought that was the gist of all commentaries posted. You see it differently. Fair enough, after the length of this discourse thus far I think we can take it we have reached an impasse and respectful parting of the ways on this.

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Here you are taking part of what he said and ignoring the rest :

The mention of "scribes" in this place is a crucial point in the argument whether or not the Pentateuch or Torah is the old law-book of the Jews, or a fabrication which gradually grew up, but was not received as authoritative until after the return from the captivity. It is not until the time of Josiah
2 Chronicles 34:13
that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah.
The Torah must have existed in writing before
there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage.
What the scribes turned into a lie was that Law of which they had just boasted that they were the possessors
. Moreover, the scribes undeniably became possessed of preponderating influence during the exile: and on the return from Babylon were powerful enough to prevent the restoration of the kingly offi


on the contrary of what you are saying , Gill clearly mentions that it is absurd to think that they were perhaps writers of false prophecies is not true

Then he asserts that they were changed the law by writting
yes for sure they did change the law by writing. I am not disagreeing with you here. Why are you still going on about it?

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Again I see your personal opinion (what you take from) turning the clear phrase that the scribes turned into a lie was that law of which they had just boasted that they were the possessors into interpriting the law according to their will !!! I mean it is clear that there is a certain twist in interprating the text which exists

Jerimiah 26: 4

It is talking about the true law not the one these false writers were writting, the passage never said that all copies were now corrupt !!! Rather Jrimiah warned fro these false writers

peace
Yes, Jeremiah was indeed warning the people against the false prophets and scribes with their false version of the law. We know the true law was not affected because God told prophets to adhere to it, God would not have done so if the true law was exactly as God Himself intended it to be.

On that note I am finished with this thread. I look forward to your new threads and if given the necessary moderator permission will see you there. Thank you for your time spent in dialogue on this matter.

peace unto you