Without Muslims ... !!??

[Burninglight]

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The quran never stated that you should stick with the corrupted bible rather the quran talked about past jews and christians in the time of the prophets and jesus that they should stick with their holy book but they didn't

Actually it brings something new because it corrects the pathway of jews and christians and fights idolatry and trinity. In a way you do not believe in the same god since you preach for three the father the son and the holy ghost

As for associating the prophet with god , this just shows the degree of lack of knowledge you have
I bare wittness that there is no god but god and muhammed is his messenger

messenger not god

However you are last to talk about this you associate jesus and the holy spirit

don't christians usually say : in the name of the father, the son , the holy spirit!!!!!

Look, the Quran tells us to stand on what has been revealed to us. Not that we need the advice, because we know what we need to do. The Quran doesn't say the Bible is corrupted. It says the opposite to me: Say: "O People of the Book!
Ye have no ground to stand upon
unless you stand fast
by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation
that has come to you from your Lord."
Surah 5:68
This is what we do. If the Bible is corrupted than so is the Quran, and if the Bible isn't corrupted so is the Quran, because the Quran makes itself mutually exclusive from the Scripture God promised to preserve and established forever in heaven that came first to us people of the Book.
Besides, I find a discrepancy in the Quran, for instance, Allah implies that the three we should desist from saying are the son, mother and father. Allah alludes to Mary being part of the trinity. He questions Jesus: "did you say take you and your mother to two gods besides me. There is the implied three by Allah: the son, the mother and father, No Christian worships such a trinity. Nor do any Christians consider Allah the third person of God's tri unity. Allah said, "they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three" who does that? Allah didn't know and had misconceptions of the Christian trinity. IOW, no Christian is in violation of the three described by Allah and his messenger. Islam is only a reaction against its own misconceptions of Christianity. So how in the world can that be a religion we should follow?
peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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Look, the Quran tells us to stand on what has been revealed to us. Not that we need the advice, because we know what we need to do. The Quran doesn't say the Bible is corrupted. It says the opposite to me: Say: "O People of the Book!
Ye have no ground to stand upon
unless you stand fast
by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation
that has come to you from your Lord."
Surah 5:68
This is what we do. If the Bible is corrupted than so is the Quran, and if the Bible isn't corrupted so is the Quran, because the Quran makes itself mutually exclusive from the Scripture God promised to preserve and established forever in heaven that came first to us people of the Book.
Besides, I find a discrepancy in the Quran, for instance, Allah implies that the three we should desist from saying are the son, mother and father. Allah alludes to Mary being part of the trinity. He questions Jesus: "did you say take you and your mother to two gods besides me. There is the implied three by Allah: the son, the mother and father, No Christian worships such a trinity. Nor do any Christians consider Allah the third person of God's tri unity. Allah said, "they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three" who does that? Allah didn't know and had misconceptions of the Christian trinity. IOW, no Christian is in violation of the three described by Allah and his messenger. Islam is only a reaction against its own misconceptions of Christianity. So how in the world can that be a religion we should follow?
peace

You don't get it you are misinterpirating islamic texts accroding to your own misconception and taking it to your understanding

This whole response is a weak attempt to remove us from the actual subject

here is the context of the verse you misinterpirated :

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
ًًInterpritation from tafseer ibn katheer:


(O People of the Scripture! You have nothing...) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law.

The verse here is talking about the original revelation not the ones they have on hand, in

tafseer altabary in the interpritation of thisverse it is reported by ibn Abbas that a number of

jews came to the prophet and asked him if he belived in the torah , the prophet replied by

yes howerver stating that they changed and refused what has been said in the torah ,

ultimately this Hadeeth proves that the verse is talking about the original revelations by god


Also you said that the Quran depicts Mary as the third person of trinity Where in the world

the quran stated that mary was the third person in Trinity???

[Burninglight]

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You don't get it you are misinterpirating islamic texts accroding to your own misconception and taking it to your understanding

This whole response is a weak attempt to remove us from the actual subject

here is the context of the verse you misinterpirated :

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
ًًInterpritation from tafseer ibn katheer:


(O People of the Scripture! You have nothing...) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law.

The verse here is talking about the original revelation not the ones they have on hand, in

tafseer altabary in the interpritation of thisverse it is reported by ibn Abbas that a number of

jews came to the prophet and asked him if he belived in the torah , the prophet replied by

yes howerver stating that they changed and refused what has been said in the torah ,

ultimately this Hadeeth proves that the verse is talking about the original revelations by god


Also you said that the Quran depicts Mary as the third person of trinity Where in the world

the quran stated that mary was the third person in Trinity???

I never said the Quran depicts Mary as the third person of the trinity; go back and read carefully. I see in the verses you quoted that we are to believe in the torah and gospel, and I see you added your interpretation that we are to believe in the Quran as well, but the verse doesn't say what you want me to believe.

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

I never said the Quran depicts Mary as the third person of the trinity; go back and read carefully. I see in the verses you quoted that we are to believe in the torah and gospel, and I see you added your interpretation that we are to believe in the Quran as well, but the verse doesn't say what you want me to believe.

Peace

As for the interpritation I brought you the interpritation of Ibn Katheer and the interpritation of Altabary based on the narration of ibn Abbass the cousin of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him

What you said was this :

Allah alludes to Mary being part of the trinity. He questions Jesus: "did you say take you and your mother to two gods besides me

The verse you stated has no trinity in it , it clearly state beside me . It is important to know that catholicism had a huge history of the excessive worship of Mary as the mother of god that is just one example .

[Burninglight]

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As for the interpritation I brought you the interpritation of Ibn Katheer and the interpritation of Altabary based on the narration of ibn Abbass the cousin of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him

What you said was this :

Allah alludes to Mary being part of the trinity. He questions Jesus: "did you say take you and your mother to two gods besides me

The verse you stated has no trinity in it , it clearly state beside me . It is important to know that catholicism had a huge history of the excessive worship of Mary as the mother of god that is just one example .

I was born and raised Catholic; so I know what they believe. As once being Catholic, I never believed Mary was God. If Mary was God she would have to be part of the trinity. The Bible says no such thing and the Quran doesn't explicitly say she is part of the trinity, but one can logically infer that the Quran alludes to the trinity being the son, mother (Mary) and the father (Allah). If you cannot see how this can be logically inferred, you need to open your eyes or be honest.

If Allah didn't mean to imply Mary was part of the trinity why did he ask Jesus did you say take you and your mother for two gods? Catholics worshipped all the saints not just Jesus and Mary. Allah singled out Jesus and Mary as the two gods besides him. I count three. How many do you count? If Allah didn't mean what he said, then why didn't he say what he meant?
Personally, I see it as Allah having a misconception of the three he tells us to desist from saying. He even mistakenly thought Christians considered Allah the third of the three when he said "they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three" Who considered God the father the third of the three in question? Not even the Catholics did or do this. So who was Allah referring to? If Allah believed Christians considered Mary God which he did, he would have said say not four instead of three, but he didn't know about us believing the Holy Spirit was and is God. Uhm???
This is a discrepancy that cannot be repaired, and it tells me that Islam's prophet contrived the Quran based on his hatred of Christianity; therefore, true Christians are now seeing that Islam is mostly a reaction against Christianity. Ironically, Allah is blaming Christians for the Christianity he had part in starting by deceiving people into believing that Jesus died. He is the one who made it appear to be so; therefore, in my mind's eye, he has part in creating a religion that has always been greater than Islam in number and doctrine till this day. IMHO, the real deception wasn't making Jesus appear to have been crucified; it was getting people to believe that He didn't die for our sin so these people will have a Christless eternity. This confusion doesn't come from the one and only true God I love and worship!

peace

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

I was born and raised Catholic; so I know what they believe. As once being Catholic, I never believed Mary was God. If Mary was God she would have to be part of the trinity. The Bible says no such thing and the Quran doesn't explicitly say she is part of the trinity, but one can logically infer that the Quran alludes to the trinity being the son, mother (Mary) and the father (Allah). If you cannot see how this can be logically inferred, you need to open your eyes or be honest.

If Allah didn't mean to imply Mary was part of the trinity why did he ask Jesus did you say take you and your mother for two gods? Catholics worshipped all the saints not just Jesus and Mary. Allah singled out Jesus and Mary as the two gods besides him. I count three. How many do you count? If Allah didn't mean what he said, then why didn't he say what he meant?
Personally, I see it as Allah having a misconception of the three he tells us to desist from saying. He even mistakenly thought Christians considered Allah the third of the three when he said "they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three" Who considered God the father the third of the three in question? Not even the Catholics did or do this. So who was Allah referring to? If Allah believed Christians considered Mary God which he did, he would have said say not four instead of three, but he didn't know about us believing the Holy Spirit was and is God. Uhm???
This is a discrepancy that cannot be repaired, and it tells me that Islam's prophet contrived the Quran based on his hatred of Christianity; therefore, true Christians are now seeing that Islam is mostly a reaction against Christianity. Ironically, Allah is blaming Christians for the Christianity he had part in starting by deceiving people into believing that Jesus died. He is the one who made it appear to be so; therefore, in my mind's eye, he has part in creating a religion that has always been greater than Islam in number and doctrine till this day. IMHO, the real deception wasn't making Jesus appear to have been crucified; it was getting people to believe that He didn't die for our sin so these people will have a Christless eternity. This confusion doesn't come from the one and only true God I love and worship!

peace

All of what you said in red has actually nothing to do with our discussions

Second you ignored my whole response . Here is what I said:

It is important to know that catholicism had a huge history of the excessive worship of Mary as the mother of god that is just one example

Second : I already told you that the verse does not say the third rather a third and I already stated this in another subject but you think that you would catch me by gullie as paul did with early christians
a third of three which means part of trinitarian

As for your so called allusion ACTUALLY its your delusion . Never not once in the Quran did god state that Mary was part of trinity if the so verse says that then why did god in the passage said beside me rather with me

However :1.More importantly the verse :

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]

This verse reffers to the worship of Mary and jesus . The worship of mary in catholicism to an extent where Mary is elavated to a degree of an almost goddess like figure exists within the HISTORY of catholicism as I said, she is considered the holy mother of god , the queen of heaven , here are some examples:

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind

source: In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196


Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her
Source : In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196


Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]

Source : Catholic enclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

The official rosary of the catholic church :
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rosary.htm

In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [Catechism of the Catholic Church,] (p. 125)"

So if you are saying that the belief that mary is the mother of God and the queen of heaven who people can pray to , is not a form of a goddess like worship then I do not know what is , true they did not claim she was god or a goddess but she was treated as so

Now and the most important point is that again the quran never said that she was part of trinity rather that is your own interpritation

Also god stated the name of jesus as been taken as god by christians in this verse without taking mary in consideration:

People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]

God mentioned here the status of jesus without stating the status of Mary which shows that the quran never depicted mary as part of the trinity

peace

[Burninglight]

Quote

All of what you said in red has actually nothing to do with our discussions

Second you ignored my whole response . Here is what I said:

It is important to know that catholicism had a huge history of the excessive worship of Mary as the mother of god that is just one example

Second : I already told you that the verse does not say the third rather a third and I already stated this in another subject but you think that you would catch me by gullie as paul did with early christians
a third of three which means part of trinitarian

As for your so called allusion ACTUALLY its your delusion . Never not once in the Quran did god state that Mary was part of trinity if the so verse says that then why did god in the passage said beside me rather with me

However :1.More importantly the verse :

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]

This verse reffers to the worship of Mary and jesus . The worship of mary in catholicism to an extent where Mary is elavated to a degree of an almost goddess like figure exists within the HISTORY of catholicism as I said, she is considered the holy mother of god , the queen of heaven , here are some examples:

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind

source: In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196


Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her
Source : In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196


Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]

Source : Catholic enclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

The official rosary of the catholic church :
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rosary.htm

In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [Catechism of the Catholic Church,] (p. 125)"

So if you are saying that the belief that mary is the mother of God and the queen of heaven who people can pray to , is not a form of a goddess like worship then I do not know what is , true they did not claim she was god or a goddess but she was treated as so

Now and the most important point is that again the quran never said that she was part of trinity rather that is your own interpritation

Also god stated the name of jesus as been taken as god by christians in this verse without taking mary in consideration:

People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]

God mentioned here the status of jesus without stating the status of Mary which shows that the quran never depicted mary as part of the trinity

peace

SIGH, First of all, the verse reads like this: "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve." You saying "a third" is not honest exegesis, and it is an obvious cover up for what I consider a discrepancy. You may say it doesn't have anything to do with the topic, but your are obviously using that as a red herring. As for what the Catholic Church did with Mary, this is not BIBLICAL Christianity. So Allah's beef is with the Catholics and not true Biblical Christianity OR CHRISTIANS. He was reacting to Catholicism is what you are telling me whether your realize it or not.
That doesn't cut it for me. I am not a Catholic worshipper of Mary or any saints nor is it Biblical to do such a thing. It idolatry and pagan. But get this, not even the Catholics considered Allah the third person of the trinity or a third of the trinity. NO Christians be they Catholic or not ever considered that God comes in thirds either. So even if your dishonest exegesis of the Quran were true, and you know it is not, it is a misconception. This is enough of a discrepancy for me to see that the only way Islam can support itself is to tear down Christianity; otherwise, it doesn't stand on its own. IMHO, I see as tantamount to a man that is drowning, and in an attempt to save himself tries to drown the person trying to save him. Please spare me your rhetoric, and be honest for a change. Finally, I never said Allah said Jesus and Mary were part of the trinity; I said it is the only thing that scholars can logically infer from what Allah asked Jesus and by what He said not to do in regards to "say not three"

Peace