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Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post

Alright , back on track . The whole reason this started is because you don't see it acceptable to kill something with a soul for food . I presented our view in Islam . That's quiet enough .


Agreed.

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It seems that each time I mention your doctrine , I touch a nerve . It's so sensetive that you'd turn blind for crystal clear signs of Quran and crystal clear narrations about the subject . The people of the book corrupting the message is a given and a no brainer among Muslims . Wither that's correct or not is a different subject for another thread . Still , I'll bring you the signs again :

2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

4:46 Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

5:13 So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

5:41 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger () is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain.

So who knows our doctrine better , the entire Islamic nation through history starting from the companions , or you ? I thought we've already gone through this , let's not start it again because that's just ridiculous and absurd . If just the claim that the people of the book altered the message gets you worked up like that , what would happen in a conversation about the proof for it ?
Believe me you do not come anywhere near touching a nerve. Nothing you say to denigrate my faith causes a ripple of discomfort upon my person. :) the only thing you could say I am a tad sensitive about is your disrespect towards Jesus... And even this is not enough to cause me to anger because Jesus does not need my anger and would not welcome it as we know it is hurtful to God to show anger towards a person because that person may not intend to behave thus and some may not even see their actions should be cause of anger or distress to another. Guess that cuts both ways so if I have unintentionally caused you to anger by my words then I sincerely ask your forgiveness. In regards to your above suras.. Then you read them again and pray tell where does it state the WHOLE of the written Torah was changed but what some Jews interpreted for their own ends. Bedsides if you know the history of the Torah you would know that any changes any one person made would soon be discovered by another with a manuscript in their possession. As Christians also held there own copies of the scriptures do you think they would have stood silently by and said nought if they saw evidence of Jews changing the meaning of the text. I would not pretend to know any more of Islam than the poorest of muslims in knowledge. I'm just saying it as I see it.. And it does not match up that such a corruption on this scale (to change the scripture to the extent of needing another new revelation) is possible to carry off without it being discovered.

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In Arabic ?! Do I need to remind you he couldn't write or read ? And when you make the claim he heard it from someone , Allah himself answers you and the pagans who made this slander a millenia and half ago :

16:103 And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.

And I don't know how on Earth would someone just take thing he hears on the fly and "adds" them to his message while avoiding the everything that's false !
Yes, in Arabic.. I don't know much about Hadith .. As in what is considered authentic etc. I think I am correct in saying that Bukhari is considered reliable.. You may correct me if I assume wrongly.

***Bukhari Sahih Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."***

That fact it's a widely held belief that Prophet Mohammed was illiterate, I fail to see how that fact would in anyway impede his hearing or being influenced by Jewish and Christian scriptures and literature that history shows was available in Arabia in the Arabic language at that time. In regards to avoiding anything false.. That again is a matter of opinion... It does not seem unreasonable to conclude that writings found in early Jewish folk tales that were never part of scripture to be found in the Quran is going to raise questions for non muslims.


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Oh ! So you're just assuming that he heard these folklores on the fly as he was travelling ! Also , here's a thing , he hasn't been anywhere outside the peninsula . You kept talking about proof for the corruption - another subject - yet here you are making allegations out of thin air .



http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/ar...-christians-ii

Also , he died shortly after the revelation . Islam was revealed through 23 years !
Again, I fail to see what the fact of limited travel outside the Arabian peninsula by prophet Mohammed himself would be proof of not hearing of the scriptures and other writings from travellers coming to the peninsula. The fact that Christians and Jews were inhabitants of the area we can take from that they brought their faith and knowledge of their respective scriptures. I'm not saying prophet Mohammed added things he heard from other sources.. But I am saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility.. And when non muslims see things in the Quran that has been long understood to be from the minds of men handed down as folklore and never been part of scripture then should that not raise in our minds a valid questioning. Of why Allah would include such in the Quran.

23 years, a short time indeed for a final revelation when YHWH had spent 1500 + perfecting His biblical message through the scriptures that came before. Is the time scale relevant? God takes time as long as it needs to complete His will. As God exists outside of our frame of time reference as our understanding then we don't question that.



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I thought you said one's falsehood is another's truth . You don't seem to see anything wrong with his method of flooding the thread and the constant slandering , but I do . If he just acts more professionaly and stops trying to force his personal - and comletely baseless - opinions , he'll find a different treatment . Each situation is acted upon differently , that's a given .
Yes I did say that.. You are passionate about your Islam as we are about our Christianity. We are all individuals and express ourselves differently. We can, will and do disagree on points and at times we can reach concordance on others. Criticism of words and opinions is inevitable.. But your replies were bordering on the personal and that's why I mentioned it.. Maybe I should not have..


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Either I chose wrong words when I translated from Arabic to English , or you differ with the Orthodox Christians of Egypt we're dealing with because that's what they say . They say that the human contained the divine being one with it - or something nearly - . So honestly , if you have a problem , you should be sovling it with them .
Yes, you chose your words wrongly. You said Jesus was half man half God and that's what Christians believe. That is against Bible teaching and whatever denomination where ever they are in the world Christians do not believe Jesus is half man half God. But fully man and fully God. Maybe you should go back and ask the question again and listen to the answer. As Gods Word incarnate Jesus can only be fully divine as Gods uncreated Word is divine. As Man born of woman under the law Jesus can only be fully human. There exists in Jesus the one divine essence. As all things are possible with God we have no issue understanding the Bible on this. This is our belief.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).


You missed the point . I'm talking about the final day . On that day , animals return even once more to sand while the people of hell are imprisoned .
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Your belief.

Peace.