Love for the Prophet is a Condition of Faith

[نصير الدين]

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Yes, but it's not Allah asking you to prostrate to Adam.. But Allah commanding the angels to prostrate to Adam. It's a given that all mankind should worship God alone. I'm asking why you thought Allah would ask the angels to prostrate to the first man.. Adam. You make the assumption that the angels were not told to worship Adam on the basis of what the Quran tells you in regards to worshipping Allah.

Simply put , they were ordered to do that as a sign of respect to mankind .

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How can that be right what you say here! Ilbis or Satan was a created angel who disobeyed God.. The other fallen angels who were coerced into joining him were expelled from heaven/paradise. What is the origin of Ilbis / satan in Islam then? If Ilbis was included in the host of angels Allah commanded to prostrate to Adam then he must have been considered part of the angelic host. The fact he disobeyed God meant he did have the will to disobey as did those angels who sided with him. Have you ever read "Paradise Lost" by Milton? If not do so it is an interesting account of the fall. Mind you it is in prose.. Not everyone's cup of tea. ;) also angels have to be higher than man, they reside with God and assist as messengers etc. They are supernatural beings blessed with greater powers than man.. So how we are above them.? Right path or not. It's not logical. True, we were given free choice because we were created along with angels to the glory of God.. If we did not have choice in this there would be no glory in truth. How are we ever below animals? Does Islam say animals have a soul?

Seriosuly Pandora , if you just have read this sign , you wouldn't have needed to ask ! :

18:50 And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

And the order given to the angels to prostrate to Adam peace upon him included them and whoever is with them , like when the principle of a school tells the teachers to stand for the arrival of the minister , just becaus he said "teachers" doesn't mean others like the janitor , electrician , or anyone else are not included . So basically , in Islam , there isn't a thing called "fallen angel" . And I did provide you the sign saying angels never disobey Allah .

I do realize angels have supernatural powers to humans , what does that have to do with anything ? If strength or power is what defines who's better than who , a sinner with power is better than a weak worshiper and that's false by default . Again , the point is : Angels were created pure and obident never disobeying Allah in his orders , animals were created with mere instincts , and although they display ethical actions like sacrifise for the children , they are mindless unlike humans , humans however have both mind and instincts/desires , they are tested to fight their desires in the forbidden - not all desires are forbidden or the way thy are achieved - and seek the true path shown to them by the prophets Allah sent , if they succeed , they are at a higher place than angels because angels can't disobey to begin with , and if they fail , they are below animals because they are mindless to begin with .

And yes , animals have souls .

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lol.... :) no that's just silly... You know they are being polite and bowing is born from their tradition as an acceptable way to show their politeness. If I meet the Queen I would bow or curtesy out of respect... I don't worship her... Even though she is considered the head of the church of England!!! Her majesty would be most vexed if we worshipped her. :) :) it's not that hard to tell the difference. God certainly knows who worships Him alone in truth.

And that's the case . It wasn't worship to Adam peace upon him but a sign of respect .

Allah knows best .

[pandora]

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Simply put , they were ordered to do that as a sign of respect to mankind .

I'm sorry... but which ever way you cut it the word used is "prostration"not bow. When you prostrate you do so in worship as do I or anyone else. You do not prostrate to someone as a sign of respect. There is a huge difference.

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Seriosuly Pandora , if you just have read this sign , you wouldn't have needed to ask ! :

18:50 And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

And the order given to the angels to prostrate to Adam peace upon him included them and whoever is with them , like when the principle of a school tells the teachers to stand for the arrival of the minister , just becaus he said "teachers" doesn't mean others like the janitor , electrician , or anyone else are not included . So basically , in Islam , there isn't a thing called "fallen angel" . And I did provide you the sign saying angels never disobey Allah .

ah well... I was forgetting the jinn.. Jinn are never mentioned in the Bible so I don't know what they are meant to be.. We don't have an equivalent being to jinn. Why do you think God neglected to tell his people of these jinn? Especially as they seemingly hold such sway of power for evil, which if satan is of their number must be so. We have a clear and simple message.. God created angels ...satan disobeyed God and so became a fallen angel along with those of the host that followed him. They were expelled from paradise and their mission is to turn people from the path God has chosen for their salvation. Maybe the fallen angels could be considered demons.. Which we know are very real. The fact that Jesus had power over demons and they knew and feared Him is a pointer to His divinity. Could the jinn be considered the same as demons? The jinn sound a convenience to cover for the fact that although The Quran states angels obey Allah in all things there also exists another power to tempt mankind into sin etc so if angels can't disobey then something else has to take their place.. Jinn.

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I do realize angels have supernatural powers to humans , what does that have to do with anything ? If strength or power is what defines who's better than who , a sinner with power is better than a weak worshiper and that's false by default . Again , the point is : Angels were created pure and obident never disobeying Allah in his orders , animals were created with mere instincts , and although they display ethical actions like sacrifise for the children , they are mindless unlike humans , humans however have both mind and instincts/desires , they are tested to fight their desires in the forbidden - not all desires are forbidden or the way thy are achieved - and seek the true path shown to them by the prophets Allah sent , if they succeed , they are at a higher place than angels because angels can't disobey to begin with , and if they fail , they are below animals because they are mindless to begin with .

And yes , animals have souls .

It has nothing to do with strength or power as meaning some kind of superiority when it comes to mankind. Comparing mankind with angels is not appropriate. It's starting to look that we view angels differently also. Maybe that's a topic for another thread. The Bible has a clearly defined role for angels and they are different in rank but if they are part of the heavenly host then they all with single purpose act according to the will of God. I'm not sure how a person who could be considered the lowest of humans through his/her actions be considered lower than an animal. Because God created man higher than the animals, to have dominion over the animals.. So it does not follow that a "mindless" human is somehow an animal or indeed lower than animal. A human is a human regardless of intellect or ability.

There are different schools of thought regarding weather or not animals have souls in the same way we do. If reading the Bible on the subject I would say no, animals do not have souls as mankind does. Although they are blessed with a spirit seeing as they are sentient beings and have a limited intelligence. However, although mankind were at first created vegetarian after the Noahic Covenant (I did a thread on the Covenants should you wish to look it up) God said..

~~"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." ~~(Genesis 9:3)

so would God allow us to kill and eat a being with a soul? If the soul was the same in essence as a human soul. I don't think so, as killing another human is forbidden and considered a sin but God gives His blessing for mankind to kill and eat animals. In the Old Testament God includes what animals are allowed to be offered as a sacrifice for the covering of sin... we do not see the sacrifice of dogs, cats, horses, mules or donkeys in the Bible. We can see that these animals are the ones that enjoy the closest relationship with man.. As in they have been useful in aiding mankind in work situations or companionship as pets. Dogs are mentioned many times in Scripture but cats are not... It could be they were considered the favourite pets in Egypt and were associated with pagan religion.

However, if an animal has a spirit of sorts.. And I think it must do.. Then that does not mean that animals wouldn't exist in paradise for lack of a soul. As all things are possible with God if an animal means much to a human.. Like a beloved pet or something ... who knows they could be reunited at some level after death.

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And that's the case . It wasn't worship to Adam peace upon him but a sign of respect .

Allah knows best .

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Well, I've read what you've said here, but I'm not sure I can agree over the word "prostrate" being used to describe simply a sign of respect. I can agree with your final words.. And indeed God does know best.

Peace.