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[M.Khaled]

Well, regarding the point of Ishmael, I see we are just keeping on repeating ourselves, so I see that keeping on discussing this issue is a waste of time. You may try to make analogy of the offered son with the sacrifice of Jesus, but that does nothing if the point that Jesus died for our sins is not applicable.
I will just answer some other points raised, well giving the analogy of Jesus and the Father as man and woman is actually not applicable to the Trinity as man and woman are two different people, no one can be a man and a woman at the same time. You are saying that the son and Holy Spirit cannot act independently of the Father? Is the opposite true that the Father is dependent on the Son and the Holy Spirit? And if they are one, how can they have different roles and responsibilities? Different roles are between parts, not that each of them is God but they are one God.

[pandora]

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Well, regarding the point of Ishmael, I see we are just keeping on repeating ourselves, so I see that keeping on discussing this issue is a waste of time. You may try to make analogy of the offered son with the sacrifice of Jesus, but that does nothing if the point that Jesus died for our sins is not applicable.

Yes, I agree, we are travailing over old ground on the issue of Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't see your arguments as convincing enough for me to change my opinion that the account in the Bible seems more realistic and makes better sense. On this I feel we must agree to disagree. I see it has everything to do with Jesus as the offered sacrifice but I respect you do not see this and on that point we also beg to differ. :) I have enjoyed dialogue with you though and you have put your points across well. Would you care to discuss another topic?

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I will just answer some other points raised, well giving the analogy of Jesus and the Father as man and woman is actually not applicable to the Trinity as man and woman are two different people, no one can be a man and a woman at the same time. You are saying that the son and Holy Spirit cannot act independently of the Father? Is the opposite true that the Father is dependent on the Son and the Holy Spirit? And if they are one, how can they have different roles and responsibilities? Different roles are between parts, not that each of them is God but they are one God.

Hmm.. Maybe not such a good analogy.. I thought it kind of got my point across, obviously not tho. :) the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot act independently of the Father.. They do the Fathers will at all times.. The Father is not dependant on the Son or the Holy Spirit in the way you seem to be implying, for there to be independence then they would have to be three separate distinct beings..if we take that Jesus is Gods uncreated Word, and the Holy Spirit as Gods uncreated Will.. Then they have always existed in unity.. As ONE. The Word communicates with mankind.. The Will (Holy Spirit) grants understanding. I'm sorry this does not make sense to you and I truly wish I could explain it to you better. Yet truly, I believe God is a mystery and we are not meant to fully understand God except in terms has He chooses to reveal Himself to us. I don't think I would want to condense my understanding of God to something logical I could place on a postage stamp.. I want God to be more than that.. I believe my God is.. Or my view of our God if you like.. ;)

Blessings.

[M.Khaled]

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Yes, I agree, we are travailing over old ground on the issue of Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't see your arguments as convincing enough for me to change my opinion that the account in the Bible seems more realistic and makes better sense. On this I feel we must agree to disagree. I see it has everything to do with Jesus as the offered sacrifice but I respect you do not see this and on that point we also beg to differ. :) I have enjoyed dialogue with you though and you have put your points across well. Would you care to discuss another topic?

If you want to discuss another topic, you can raise it. :)

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Hmm.. Maybe not such a good analogy.. I thought it kind of got my point across, obviously not tho. :) the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot act independently of the Father.. They do the Fathers will at all times.. The Father is not dependant on the Son or the Holy Spirit in the way you seem to be implying, for there to be independence then they would have to be three separate distinct beings..if we take that Jesus is Gods uncreated Word, and the Holy Spirit as Gods uncreated Will.. Then they have always existed in unity.. As ONE. The Word communicates with mankind.. The Will (Holy Spirit) grants understanding. I'm sorry this does not make sense to you and I truly wish I could explain it to you better. Yet truly, I believe God is a mystery and we are not meant to fully understand God except in terms has He chooses to reveal Himself to us. I don't think I would want to condense my understanding of God to something logical I could place on a postage stamp.. I want God to be more than that.. I believe my God is.. Or my view of our God if you like.. ;)

It's ok :) the problem I have with Trinity is not that we are not able to understand it although I don't like what some Christians do when they try to make it logical by some analogies which are actually irrelevant. We in Islam believe in attributes of God and we don't try to explain how, but we just believe in them the way God told about. The real problem in the Trinity is that it has no evidence.

[pandora]

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If you want to discuss another topic, you can raise it. :)

OK.. How about covenants? I don't see covenants mentioned in your article... Also I confess I'm not sure what covenant God made with Mohammed for the muslims. I would be interested in your view on this. What do you think? Or would you prefer I pick something from your article?

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It's ok :) the problem I have with Trinity is not that we are not able to understand it although I don't like what some Christians do when they try to make it logical by some analogies which are actually irrelevant. We in Islam believe in attributes of God and we don't try to explain how, but we just believe in them the way God told about. The real problem in the Trinity is that it has no evidence.

:) you don't have to understand it, and as a Muslim it doesn't impact on your person any. Truly.. It could well be a concept beyond our understanding and sometimes words we use in an effort to explain fall short. However, it is a concept found in the Bible and I find it makes more sense that a unitary being for various reasons. Maybe man will always seek to try to understand and explain God in terms we are comfortable with. Yet.. Are we right to do this? If God, as we believe, is far greater than His creation, how on earth can we expect the creation could fully know the creator. I am content to understand what God has revealed to me about His being.. From the Bible but mainly through Jesus. In the absence of any clear proof to the contrary I see Christianity and accepting Jesus as my saviour is truth.

Peace to you. :)

[M.Khaled]

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OK.. How about covenants? I don't see covenants mentioned in your article... Also I confess I'm not sure what covenant God made with Mohammed for the muslims. I would be interested in your view on this. What do you think? Or would you prefer I pick something from your article?

Well, you can consider the covenant made with Muslims as the five pillars:
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/pillars-of-islam/
Also regarding the praying which is the second pillar, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said:
"The pact between us and them is prayer. Whoever abandons it is a disbeliever." (Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi, anNasa'i and Ibn Majah.)

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:) you don't have to understand it, and as a Muslim it doesn't impact on your person any. Truly.. It could well be a concept beyond our understanding and sometimes words we use in an effort to explain fall short. However, it is a concept found in the Bible and I find it makes more sense that a unitary being for various reasons. Maybe man will always seek to try to understand and explain God in terms we are comfortable with. Yet.. Are we right to do this? If God, as we believe, is far greater than His creation, how on earth can we expect the creation could fully know the creator. I am content to understand what God has revealed to me about His being.. From the Bible but mainly through Jesus. In the absence of any clear proof to the contrary I see Christianity and accepting Jesus as my saviour is truth.

Well, actually the case is that the Bible itself mentioned nothing regarding the Trinity or that Jesus is God, actually Jesus said that only the Father is God:Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, Joh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Jesus says that the Father is the only true God. Actually if he said “God” instead of Father in verse 1 (the bolded word), this wouldn’t have been a proof that the Father is the only Gpd, because God could have meant the whole Trinity. By using the word Father, Jesus clearly states the Father only is the only God, thus excluding the son and the holy spirit.
And consider Jesus word “this is the eternal life”.Jesus didn’t say that the eternal life is that he is God who came in flesh or that he is the second person in the Trinity, or that he is the Savior who came to be crucified for the sin of Adam, it is simply that the Father is the only God, and that Jesus was sent by God.

[pandora]

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Well, you can consider the covenant made with Muslims as the five pillars:
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/pillars-of-islam/
Also regarding the praying which is the second pillar, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said:
"The pact between us and them is prayer. Whoever abandons it is a disbeliever." (Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi, anNasa'i and Ibn Majah.)

By your rather dismissive tone am I to assume that Covenants are a no go then? Shame.. I would have been interested in knowing what actually constitutes a covenant between Allah and Mohammed on behalf of muslims. I'm not sure I see the five pillars of Islam fits the bill as a covenant. What are the conditions.. Is it unconditional or conditional?

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Well, actually the case is that the Bible itself mentioned nothing regarding the Trinity or that Jesus is God, actually Jesus said that only the Father is God:,Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify youJoh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Jesus says that the Father is the only true God. Actually if he said “God” instead of Father in verse 1 (the bolded word), this wouldn’t have been a proof that the Father is the only Gpd, because God could have meant the whole Trinity. By using the word Father, Jesus clearly states the Father only is the only God, thus excluding the son and the holy spirit.
And consider Jesus word “this is the eternal life”.Jesus didn’t say that the eternal life is that he is God who came in flesh or that he is the second person in the Trinity, or that he is the Savior who came to be crucified for the sin of Adam, it is simply that the Father is the only God, and that Jesus was sent by God.

Im really not sure what to make of this.. It's like anything I have said about Christianity and my efforts to explain things have been completely ignored. The Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.. I don't think you would find a Christian that would say it was. Neither does Jesus ever say the words "I am God, worship me". Although He never said he was just a prophet either.. However... The concept of the trinity is in the Bible. I could ask you is the word Tawheed found in the Quran? Yet the concept of oneness is. On the point of deity in regards to Jesus.. There are other means rather than direct speech to say something. That is by actions and examples.. If you didn't know I was a woman.. And I said I was to about to give birth to a child you would immediately realise that I was in fact a woman.. Maybe poor analogy.. But you get the idea ;) poor analogies being my thing it seems..

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you

But Jesus used the term Father .. Not God. Jesus asking the Father to Glorify Him and in doing so the Son reflects the Glory back to the Father. This implies community and close relationship. Why would Jesus assume he was worthy of being glorified by God if He did not share in a greater relationship than others had. No Prophets before had ever asked God to glorify them in a way that implies a shared mutual glory.

Joh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Here Jesus claims God has given Him authority over mankind.. To sit in judgement? To grant eternal life to those who have accepted Him.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

When those who have accepted Jesus for who He claims to be, when granted eternal life will come to know God and Jesus as being one in essence. This is Gods will.

So really, as Jesus by these words is claiming to know God the Father unlike any other has ever known God. Why would you be expecting Him to be mentioning the trinity, or indeed being the sent Saviour, or even bring Adam and his fall from grace into the equation in this verse I don't quite understand. We know that God the Father is the only true God.. You are saying this as if you think we see Jesus as a god and the Holy Spirit as a god!!!!

Peace to you, may God grant you understanding.

[M.Khaled]

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By your rather dismissive tone am I to assume that Covenants are a no go then? Shame.. I would have been interested in knowing what actually constitutes a covenant between Allah and Mohammed on behalf of muslims. I'm not sure I see the five pillars of Islam fits the bill as a covenant. What are the conditions.. Is it unconditional or conditional?

What do you mean by a no go? I am not even sure what is your aim of that point of covenants.

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Im really not sure what to make of this.. It's like anything I have said about Christianity and my efforts to explain things have been completely ignored. The Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.. I don't think you would find a Christian that would say it was. Neither does Jesus ever say the words "I am God, worship me". Although He never said he was just a prophet either.. However... The concept of the trinity is in the Bible. I could ask you is the word Tawheed found in the Quran? Yet the concept of oneness is.

Well, I didn't ask for specific words, I am actually asking for the concept. The case is that the concept is absent from what Jesus said.

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So really, as Jesus by these words is claiming to know God the Father unlike any other has ever known God. Why would you be expecting Him to be mentioning the trinity, or indeed being the sent Saviour, or even bring Adam and his fall from grace into the equation in this verse I don't quite understand. We know that God the Father is the only true God.. You are saying this as if you think we see Jesus as a god and the Holy Spirit as a god!!!!

Well, I am not sure how you got the impression that Jesus knew the Father in a different way than anyone else have known Him, yes he came to teach people about God in the present and in generations afterwards, but not in a different way from past prophets I am not sure where you got that impression from these verses. The case here is that Jesus is negating here that he or the Holy Spirit to be God either as separate gods or as persons of Trinity when he says that the Father is the only true God, he didn't say: "That they know you, me and the Holy Spirit as three persons one God or the only true God", but the Father only. This is clearly against Trinity since the Father is different from the Son and the Holy Spirit.