Concept of salvation between Islam and Christianity

[pandora]

You are right about the Jews reasons to wish death upon Jesus, They did see Him as a threat. Yet do you see all Jews thought this way? What of the followers of Jesus... They too were Jews.. They followed Jesus because they believed what He taught. They did not wish their Lord to die, yet knew it was Gods will.

Judas was looked upon as a traitor at the time.. But it is naive to believe that this did not happen unless God willed it so. On that basis we do believe Judas was instrumental in Gods plan if not him then it would have been another. It was a necessity.. someone had to act the betrayer.

Blood atonement was ordained by God in the Old Testament, Jesus was the last blood atonement. You don't accept that, it makes no difference to those who believe it so. The crucifixion was prophesied centuries before Christ came into the world, it happened the way God ordained it to happen.

~ Phil 2:6-8 Christ Jesus, "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."~

God is the force behind all, nothing happens that is not according to His divine will.. So as Jesus was ever the obedient servant, likewise Judas, the Jews and the Romans who carried out the execution all did the will of God.. Difference being the only one who was conscious of the fact was Christ Jesus Himself.

I am am sure your article is very good and you have worked hard on it. It does not change the fact that Jesus did die for your sins.. You disbelieving that fact does not make it untrue. Without Jesus you are dead in your sins.

Peace to you.

[M.Khaled]

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You are right about the Jews reasons to wish death upon Jesus, They did see Him as a threat. Yet do you see all Jews thought this way? What of the followers of Jesus... They too were Jews.. They followed Jesus because they believed what He taught. They did not wish their Lord to die, yet knew it was Gods will.

I am concerned now with those who made the action itself, the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus, they were not looking for an atonement, they were actually sinning, so you are treating sin by a sin not by an atonement, which is a flaw in the salvation theory. Those who followed Jesus are not the point now whatever their action is, and of course everything is by God's will, and we are discussing whether this was really God's will or not, because in this case God of Christians who treats sin by another sin is not consistent with God of the Jews who treats sin by an atonement.

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Judas was looked upon as a traitor at the time.. But it is naive to believe that this did not happen unless God willed it so. On that basis we do believe Judas was instrumental in Gods plan if not him then it would have been another. It was a necessity.. someone had to act the betrayer.

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Well, God needn't make a plan, as plans are more concerned with human beings since they may need to think and make tactics, God orders be it becomes.

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Blood atonement was ordained by God in the Old Testament, Jesus was the last blood atonement. You don't accept that, it makes no difference to those who believe it so. The crucifixion was prophesied centuries before Christ came into the world, it happened the way God ordained it to happen.

~ Phil 2:6-8

Of course it wasn't prophesied by Paul :)

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God is the force behind all, nothing happens that is not according to His divine will.. So as Jesus was ever the obedient servant, likewise Judas, the Jews and the Romans who carried out the execution all did the will of God.. Difference being the only one who was conscious of the fact was Christ Jesus Himself.

Which is not consistent with the action of atonement itself, the action is made by the sinner not by the lamb, the sinner is the one who is accounted on his sacrifice, not the lamb is accounted on being sacrificed. God has the will to do everything, but God is consistent with His deeds, and as you said, Jesus is the obedient servant of God, you even make him like Judas, the Jews and the Romans, and at the same time, he is God?!

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I am am sure your article is very good and you have worked hard on it. It does not change the fact that Jesus did die for your sins.. You disbelieving that fact does not make it untrue. Without Jesus you are dead in your sins.

This is what you are believing, and you disbelieving that does not make it true :)

[pandora]

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[RIGHT]

I am concerned now with those who made the action itself, the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus, they were not looking for an atonement, they were actually sinning, so you are treating sin by a sin not by an atonement, which is a flaw in the salvation theory. Those who followed Jesus are not the point now whatever their action is, and of course everything is by God's will, and we are discussing whether this was really God's will or not, because in this case God of Christians who treats sin by another sin is not consistent with God of the Jews who treats sin by an atonement.

Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?

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Well, God needn't make a plan, as plans are more concerned with human beings since they may need to think and make tactics, God orders be it becomes.

Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?

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Of course it wasn't prophesied by Paul :)

No it was not. The need for blood atonement for the covering of sin before God was laid down in the Old Testament. He did not prophecy anything that was not common practice and belief from Abraham, Moses etc. The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come which was that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving ... No one took His life He gave His own life on our behalf. In Leviticus 17:11 this verse could probably be considered the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares ~ "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar, it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." In the Bible "sacrifice" is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offence committed. So we read Leviticus verse thus ~ God said, "I have given it to you (the creature’s life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me)." In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin. The consequences of sin being separation from God, given that God created man for His pleasure then it is natural to assume that God would wish us to be at some point back with Him, part of His divine love and glory. Should we therefore be surprised if God Himself gives us a way to achieve that... Knowing that we can never achieve righteousness by our own efforts.

Although the Israelites did not know of Jesus, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadowing the true, once for all time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that, without the blood, there is no forgiveness. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act ordained by God. So we could read the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 as ~ the blood ‘makes atonement’ at the cost of the life (i.e. the animal’s life) or 'makes atonement in the place of the life' (i.e. the sinner’s life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood). The Jews who wished for the death of Jesus still held to the need of blood atonement for sin but did not accept Jesus as the Messiah they were expecting God to send.


All Paul does in Hebrews 9:11-18 is confirm the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. The concept was always there and clearly understood. It's also clear that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ.

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Which is not consistent with the action of atonement itself, the action is made by the sinner not by the lamb, the sinner is the one who is accounted on his sacrifice, not the lamb is accounted on being sacrificed. God has the will to do everything, but God is consistent with His deeds, and as you said, Jesus is the obedient servant of God, you even make him like Judas, the Jews and the Romans, and at the same time, he is God?!

I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood. It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.

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This is what you are believing, and you disbelieving that does not make it true :)

Touché friend.... :) I like that.

peace to you

[M.Khaled]

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Ok, I did not realise you were being selective. I'm not sure I get your reasoning "treating a sin by a sin". Are you saying Christ giving His life in sacrifice was a sin? Even though it was ordained by God.. Why do you say the God of Christians.. Is it not the same God as muslims?

Well, I am not talking about the(sacrifice) of Jesus, because Jesus is not the one who made the action, but the one whom the action was made against. I am talking about the Pharisees? Aren't the Pharisees sinned when they intended to kill Jesus? That's what I mean, the one who makes an atonement is supposed to do it for God to forgive his sins, but in our case, the atonement (intending to kill Jesus) is a sin made by the Pharisees. I believe in general that we have the same God, but I am talking here about a specific Christian belief which I don't agree with, so I am using the word God of Christians because God of Muslims has nothing to do with this belief.

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Yet, doesn't the Quran claim that Allah is the best of planners? Surely God is concerned in our salvation.. Does this happen by chance or does God have an order? The whole of creation exists in a framework of rules.. The Laws of nature, God put such in place as otherwise chaos would ensue. Would it not therefore be reasonable to assume that God also acts within a framework of rules and as such it would not be beyond His nature and power to "plan". Or do you believe everything happens by chance?

Yes, Allah was called the Best of Planners, but if you looked at the context of this, you'll find that it talks about the conflict between believers and non believers and how God saves the believers. Your case is a different case, because it talks about how God forgives sins, God in Islam forgives sins without the need to do (the plan) which is believed by Christians, and actually

he is the one who put the rule of atonements and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.

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But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary.

Well, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 which was before crucifixion and he didn’t need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers.

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This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross ~ "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Well, Jesus said before (In Jon as well):
Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
This was before crucifixion, Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.

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I think Leviticus 17:11 above covers that, the lamb is a substitutionary sacrifice. Christ Jesus was the last sinless lamb, and being sinless means there is no longer the need for animal blood.

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Again you missed my point, the problem is not in the atonement or in the type of the atonement, the problem is the one who makes the atonement ( the Pharisees).

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It is the very fact that God is consistent and us changing in His nature that God must be just. To be just, sin against a Holy God carries a penalty and a penalty has to be paid. If God arbitrarily forgave sins then how would God remain consistent? It's Gods infinite mercy that we are given a gift that enables us to attain righteousness in order to stand before a Holy God.

This has nothing to do with being just or not, if I insulted someone and he forgave me doesn't make him unjust.

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Touché friend.... :) I like that.

Doesn't make YOUR DISBELIEF true ;)

[pandora]

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Well, I am not talking about the(sacrifice) of Jesus, because Jesus is not the one who made the action, but the one whom the action was made against. I am talking about the Pharisees? Aren't the Pharisees sinned when they intended to kill Jesus? That's what I mean, the one who makes an atonement is supposed to do it for God to forgive his sins, but in our case, the atonement (intending to kill Jesus) is a sin made by the Pharisees. I believe in general that we have the same God, but I am talking here about a specific Christian belief which I don't agree with, so I am using the word God of Christians because God of Muslims has nothing to do with this belief.

I'm sure the fault is mine, but I am not sure of the point you are making here? Are you saying the Pharisees are the sinners because of their actions in calling for the death of Jesus? On that basis they should be offering atonement for their sin? I fail to see what that has to do the Jesus' sacrifice as the lamb of God for all mankind. Do you believe then that Jesus went to His death unknowing and unwillingly? Yet... The scriptures do not agree with this and Jesus said Himself why He was sent by the God the Father. At least I am pleased to hear you believe we share the same God. That you perceive this God differently is not an issue for me, as we each follow our respective scriptures which the same ONE God has revealed to us.

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Yes, Allah was called the Best of Planners, but if you looked at the context of this, you'll find that it talks about the conflict between believers and non believers and how God saves the believers. Your case is a different case, because it talks about how God forgives sins, God in Islam forgives sins without the need to do (the plan) which is believed by Christians, and actually

he is the one who put the rule of atonements and it was found to be impractical, he did what he did to solve the problem. So either God of Christianity didn’t know the consequences of this rule, so he found a problem and solved it, which is against God’s omniscience, or that he actually knew and did what he did to make a show that he loves you.

Ahh.. Yes context.. This problem has come up before in as much it is important for me to see suras from the Quran in context yet not so important for you to apply the same rules of context to Bible verses. I guess we should concur that sin is seen differently in the Quran and Bible. If Islam claims to respect and follow the previous prophets then I don't know how you take such a view of sin. The prophets from Abraham onwards all believed God decreed for them a blood atonement for sin. Is it our place to question how Almighty God decides on how best to make us once again righteous after our fall from grace? Christians see the atoning death of the Christ as the greatest act of agape love that God has shown His creation... For through this we are granted eternal life.. The other option is to remain dead in our sins, which is no option at all worth consideration. Jesus said he is "The Way, the Truth and the Life,and no one gets to the Father except through Him" He did not lie.

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Well, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 which was before crucifixion and he didn’t need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers.

Strange you should say this. Note.. ~ Jesus forgave the adulterer ~ only God forgives sins, Christians know that Jesus forgave sins on the authority of God the Father. No other Prophet was given such authority. I am surprised you would use this as an example. I'm afraid I don't get the analogy between your abrogating stoning example and His atoning work on the cross.

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Well, Jesus said before (In Jon as well):
Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
[COLOR=#141412][FONT=Source Sans Pro][B][B]This was before crucifixion, Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.

this is a case of using scripture out of context.. In John 17:4 Jesus Prays to Be Glorified by God the Father.. The hour has come... Meaning soon Jesus' life on earth would be ended and thus His mission finished. Glorify your son...~ Jesus will return to God the Father as Jesus death has brought mankind to the Glory of God.. Authority over all people ~ all those who believe in the One God and Christ as their saviour are redeemed and have eternal life.. Jesus has brought glory to God by finishing the work God gave Him to do... Which was bringing souls to God. Finally.. Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him as He was glorified with God from before the world began.. As Gods eternal Word.

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:


“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

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Again you missed my point, the problem is not in the atonement or in the type of the atonement, the problem is the one who makes the atonement ( the Pharisees).

So do you accept that atonement was required? Your issue is more with who does the atoning. I guess as a Christian on this point I have to go with what my God (that is my view of OUR God ;) ) has decreed on the matter as per the Bible, both Old and New Testament. You could say God Himself has atoned for mankind's sin through His gracious divine love and His infinite mercy.
Salvation by substitution is in accord with a virtually universal practice. People consider it commendable for someone to die in defense of the innocent. Soldiers are honored for dying for their country. Parents are called compassionate when they die for their children. Would you sacrifice yourself for family or loved one if the circumstance demanded it? I would in a heartbeat.

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This has nothing to do with being just or not, if I insulted someone and he forgave me doesn't make him unjust.

if you were the victim of a crime and the judge showing mercy let the perpetrator off would you feel you had received justice? Or would you prefer that the perpetrator were punished in some way. To be just one has to be fair to all.. Stands to reason that any sin against God has to carry a penalty... A penalty has to be paid for by someone.

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Doesn't make YOUR DISBELIEF true ;)

lol... Nor your either ;)

Peace.

[M.Khaled]

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I'm sure the fault is mine, but I am not sure of the point you are making here? Are you saying the Pharisees are the sinners because of their actions in calling for the death of Jesus? On that basis they should be offering atonement for their sin? I fail to see what that has to do the Jesus' sacrifice as the lamb of God for all mankind. Do you believe then that Jesus went to His death unknowing and unwillingly? Yet... The scriptures do not agree with this and Jesus said Himself why He was sent by the God the Father. At least I am pleased to hear you believe we share the same God. That you perceive this God differently is not an issue for me, as we each follow our respective scriptures which the same ONE God has revealed to us.

Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.

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The prophets from Abraham onwards all believed God decreed for them a blood atonement for sin. Is it our place to question how Almighty God decides on how best to make us once again righteous after our fall from grace? Christians see the atoning death of the Christ as the greatest act of agape love that God has shown His creation... For through this we are granted eternal life.. The other option is to remain dead in our sins, which is no option at all worth consideration.

Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

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Jesus has brought glory to God by finishing the work God gave Him to do... Which was bringing souls to God. Finally.. Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him as He was glorified with God from before the world began.. As Gods eternal Word.

Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?

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So do you accept that atonement was required? Your issue is more with who does the atoning. I guess as a Christian on this point I have to go with what my God (that is my view of OUR God ;) ) has decreed on the matter as per the Bible, both Old and New Testament.

Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.

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if you were the victim of a crime and the judge showing mercy let the perpetrator off would you feel you had received justice? Or would you prefer that the perpetrator were punished in some way. To be just one has to be fair to all.. Stands to reason that any sin against God has to carry a penalty... A penalty has to be paid for by someone.

Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)

[pandora]

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Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.

Sorry, I'm still not getting the point you are making here.

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Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

You are taking this out of context, which I'm sure we can both agree understanding the context is important for each of us.
This verse you quote refers to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah. That is, the context of this verse is the Torah and not the Qur'an. If we want to understand the verses we need to understand some basics about the Torah.


When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this thus....


He must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Also....
For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. ~ Leviticus 17:11


This is why a lot of the Torah teaches about priests, sacrifices and the tabernacle/temple where the sacrifices were offered. The Torah teaches individual responsibility and forgiveness through a substitute sacrifice that bears our sin.


(The priests) will put the most holy offerings (there) - the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings - for the place is holy. ~ Ezekiel 42:13

the Torah was given to Moses from God, God made the laws and God decreed blood atonement for sin.. In the Old Testament this was a substitutionary sacrifice of animals, which was a temporary covering for sin.. All this was a precursor for the final atonement that of the Messiah.

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Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?

I think we have already covered that. Jesus did the fathers will in every thing He did during His lifetime on earth and even before that. To do anything else would be an impossibility. Yet, you wonder at His sadness at the prospect of His imminent cruel death. Jesus may have, as Christians believe.. The shared divine nature of the God the father but for sure in every other way He was a mortal man of flesh and bone and blood. As such it would, I should think be perfectly normal to experience such feelings of sorrow. Jesus always prayed to the God the Father, on this occasion that connection through prayer was needed greater than ever because Jesus would know that what He was to endure would for a short time separate Him from God.. And even for the shortest of time this must have been a hard thing to bear.

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Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.

Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)

Im sure I don't know what you mean by "manipulating certain events"I am just saying things as I see them and how it makes sense to me. I'm not expecting you to agree with me. lol... I'm just trying to explain... Badly it would seem ... My point of view.

Have a good day too.. :)

Peace.