DEXTER: and see if this thing - that qualified Jesus to be God - is so special about Jesus and no one really shares it with him
al diazgerrero: go on
DEXTER: and see also what things that do not Qualify him to be God and states clearly that Jesus is only a Human being .
DEXTER: we agree together that we both believe in Jesus , and we both love him . and we both glorify him . maybe in different manners , but we still glorify him in some way
al diazgerrero: continue
DEXTER: and since Jesus never said that he is God , or asked ppl to worship him , then we must check this doctrine too , the doctrine that says : Jesus is God , Son of God (in the full meaning of the word)
DEXTER: if Jesus said that clearly , then this conversation is over .. because JEsus did that .. but since he never said it , and it was another conclusion of christian wolrd - just like Trinity - then we have to go and then the validity of it
DEXTER: check the validity of it**
DEXTER: do we agree ?
al diazgerrero: yes, i see what you mean
al diazgerrero: and i supposse you are absolutely sure of what your saying
DEXTER: yeah . hopefully .
DEXTER: now .. first of all . from now on , I would love to show u the Islamic view regarding such matters . and I would love to share with you what God revealed in the Quran whenever I find it necessary .. ok?
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: good . lets start with what the Quran says about Son of God . ..
DEXTER: we shall share some verse 21:19-29
al diazgerrero: go ahead
DEXTER: "And unto Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and the earth and those who dwell in His presence do not scorn to worship Him nor do they weary. They glorify Him night and day; They flag not. Or have they chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead If there were therein gods besides Allah then verily both (the heavens and the earth) would have gone to ruin. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne from all they ascribe (unto Him). He is not questioned as to that which He does, but they will be questioned. Or have they chosen other gods besides Him, say: Bring your proof (of their godhead), this is the reminder of those with me and those before me, but most of them know not the truth so they are averse (to it). -
DEXTER: And we sent no messenger before you but we inspired him (saying): There is no god save Me (Allah) so worship Me. And they say: The Compassionate has taken unto himself a son. Nay! but (they) are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken and they obey His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they cannot intercede except for those whom He accepts and they quake for awe of Him. And whosoever among them says: I am a god other than Allah, the same shall We reward with Hell. Thus do We reward the wrong doers.”
DEXTER: and there are many verses also talking about Jesus , we can share it later if u are interested
al diazgerrero: yes, i know the basic teachings of the koran
al diazgerrero: i have a koran
DEXTER: now .. lets check the claim that Jesus is God from the Bible itself . and lets see wether the Quran was telling a lie or the truth..
DEXTER: of course , it is not me who Judges the words of Quran , nor u tell me .. but rather this is between u and urself.. I am not waiting for confirmation of this ,
DEXTER: but it is a check we make . and we keep the result for ourselves
DEXTER: do we agree ?
al diazgerrero: i dont agree in somethings but, go ahead
DEXTER: ok .. thats fine for now
DEXTER: now tell me .. what Qualifies Jesus to be God? gimme one by one .. so we can check it together
DEXTER: one reason now .
DEXTER: one thing only now that qualifies Jesus to be God
al diazgerrero: ok, are you ready
al diazgerrero: a few nentences behind
al diazgerrero: sentenses
al diazgerrero: *sentences
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: behind
al diazgerrero: you were explainig very well about verb timing
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: and you said that it was not possible...
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: and there is no way to combine these times and mix them since the act separates them ..
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: these were your words
al diazgerrero: but you know
al diazgerrero: that one of Gods features is that he is omnipresent
al diazgerrero: yes ?
al diazgerrero: do you agree with me that God is omnipresent
DEXTER: do u want a yes or no answer accroding to Islam belief ?
al diazgerrero: just answer, did you know that God is everywhere
al diazgerrero: ??
DEXTER: according to the islamic belief , God is beyond the Universe and He is with us with His knowledge .. but not physically .. because God is infinite and Universe can not hold Him . He Hears our prayers and He watches upon us .. that is basically the Islamic belief
DEXTER: but go ahead ..go on .
al diazgerrero: ok, so that means he is everywhere in other words, yes ?
DEXTER: in His knowledge .. but not physically
al diazgerrero: of course not phisically, but He is everywhere right, absolutely everywhere
al diazgerrero: do you agree /
DEXTER: yes ,, in the meaning that He knows everything and Witnesse Everything .
al diazgerrero: but you dont beleive that his presence is also everywhere
al diazgerrero: not his phissical presence
al diazgerrero: but his presence
DEXTER: of course, in that meaning I agree,.
al diazgerrero: well if God is absolutely present everywhere
al diazgerrero: this means in all places
DEXTER: aha
DEXTER: go on
al diazgerrero: then he is also present in all times
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: so thats why you are wrong when you say that the act separates them
DEXTER: ? am not getting the point
al diazgerrero: because even though jesus is the son
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: he existedsince ever along with the father
DEXTER: this is the unlogic thing about this doctrine , since he is not the fathe, that means he was begotten from the father and there was a time when we was not there ! u know what I mean ?
al diazgerrero: he existed since ever, along with the father
DEXTER: this way of thinking draws us to saying that we have 2 different Gods..
DEXTER: and that is not True from the Bible itself ..
al diazgerrero: ok,i know how you feel
al diazgerrero: and it is intersting because your questions are very well formulated
DEXTER: no matter how we tried to explain how the son was begotten , it draws our logic to a previous time , when son was not there
DEXTER: unless there were separated from eternity and that make Jeuss another God beside the Father .
al diazgerrero: i think that when God said let's create man, according to our image
al diazgerrero: explains me that we can explains me things that i do not understand with things i do understand
DEXTER: I think I have answered that back my friend ,,it is a way of respect .. this is true regarding both Herbow and Arabic
al diazgerrero: yes, but i mean of the fact that we were created according to his image
al diazgerrero: and there is something else i want to tell you
al diazgerrero: in very old bible versions
DEXTER: now tell me . do we know Herbow better than the Jewish ? no! and the jews never claimed that God is more than one person becuase of this declaration..
al diazgerrero: in the book of genesis
al diazgerrero: it does not say God
al diazgerrero: "God said"
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: it says :"the elohims said"
al diazgerrero: Elohims
DEXTER: let me correct u .
al diazgerrero: did you know that
DEXTER: it said : Elohym .. and not Elohym ,. and this "ym" is the plural in herbow and that shows respect ..
DEXTER: and not Elihyms**
DEXTER: Elohyms**
DEXTER: and the exact translation for this : God Almighty
al diazgerrero: yes, i see you knew that, and do you know what this means
al diazgerrero: it clearly says the word in plural
al diazgerrero: yes ?
DEXTER: also , if u read the Quran , u can find that the englsih translation shows that God talks in plural .. and yet Arabs never claimed that God is plural or more than one or has many personalities for this Plural .
al diazgerrero: have you read carefully, it is written in plural, and it means the lords
al diazgerrero: have you ever read what king david wrote
DEXTER: this is happened because the Herbow has different properties from other languages .
al diazgerrero: the lord said tomy lord
DEXTER: and when translating it , u have to know the properties of Herbow , because literal translation will be misleading
al diazgerrero: "the Lord said to my Lord"
DEXTER: we shall talk about this prophecy too and check on it later .
al diazgerrero: "sit in my right
al diazgerrero: "
DEXTER: but lets keep up the same subject
DEXTER: u said that Plural form means : many personalities ..
al diazgerrero: it is the same subject, i am saying that God's ppl were aware of this matter
DEXTER: and I told u that Arabic and Herbow share the same properties in that ..
DEXTER: Arabs or Jews never claimed that God has many personalities .. because they are aware of the language more than others,,
DEXTER: this "S" is a respect from .. and when I write to my boss i say :
DEXTER: Dear Sirs , I would like from you (plural in arabic - since English does not distinguish it from singular) to Jion me (in singular because I am trying to show respect) so and so ..
al diazgerrero: but they did not explain it very thoroughly, one because it is very difficult to understand and second becuase in salvation means, or in order to be saved, or in the interest of pleasing God, this issue is not important, the important thing, through witch we shall be saved is one, beleiving, this is faith, and second, obeying the commandments
DEXTER: aha.. believing is the first step. and that is correct .. once we have believing , we have the second step .. and this beleieving is what we are looking for .. a pure one
al diazgerrero: beleiving that jesus is my personal savior, and following the 10 commandments
al diazgerrero: that simple, that is basically the christian dochtrine
DEXTER: yeah,,
DEXTER: but tell me first . have I explained enough to u regarding plural form ?
al diazgerrero: God or christian dochtrine, does not demmand that we must beleive in what we do not understand, but it does demand obedience, and also to beleive that jesus saves me
DEXTER: ask the jews , what is this YM . and they will tell u
al diazgerrero: YM?
DEXTER: ask the arabs .. what is this "S" and they will tell u ,.
DEXTER: Elohym . - or Elohim whatever it is in English
DEXTER: the word is Eloh + plural form ..
DEXTER: and we as arabs share the word with them : Eloh as Elah ...
DEXTER: and Elah means: god ..and Allah means God Almighty
al diazgerrero: ok, the same nature of the word is plural
al diazgerrero: and do you know why you share some of these important words?
al diazgerrero: are you arab /
al diazgerrero: ??
DEXTER: so this plural from does not say that God is more than One but rather glorifies God in Herbow and Arabic
DEXTER: yeah I am arab
al diazgerrero: do you know your origin
DEXTER: what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: in the beginning jews and what later became the arabic shared the same God
al diazgerrero: in fact, you are a great nation
al diazgerrero: according to the prophecy
DEXTER: thanks .. we shall see that prophecy tooo.. it is a great one
DEXTER: may I correct you for something?
al diazgerrero: i have to do somthing, excuse me a minute, i'll be back
DEXTER: ok take ur time
al diazgerrero: ok,im back
DEXTER: w/b
al diazgerrero: thanks
al diazgerrero: ok, so where were we
DEXTER: we were I was correcting u
DEXTER: I understood from ur talk that Jews are the origin nation of the arabs, did u mean that ?
al diazgerrero: not the jews, but abraham
DEXTER: exactly . Abraham is the father of Isac , father of the Jews,
al diazgerrero: and father of Ismael
DEXTER: and also Father of Ismael , but Ismael is not the father of Arabs ..
DEXTER: Ismael lived with the Arabs
DEXTER: Arabs where there before the time of Abraham too
DEXTER: Scholars say that Arabs are origiannly from Yaman ,, south west if the Arabian Gulf
DEXTER: of*
al diazgerrero: when Abraham, prayed to the lord for his first son that was ismael, God promised that he would make out of ismael a very big and prosperous nation
DEXTER: yeah . correct .. and that is one of the most important prophecies we shall discuss later
DEXTER: lets go back .
al diazgerrero: that prophecy has been fulfilled
al diazgerrero: yeah if you like let's go back
DEXTER: 1 min
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: ok
DEXTER: now we have seen that this "S" is not a clue for multiple-personaliy God . as I have already explained to u ..
DEXTER: but rather a form of respect .. we use it in our daily life till today
DEXTER: and jews are still using it till today
al diazgerrero: yes, i think that is clear and i understand
DEXTER: good
DEXTER: now .. i asked one of the statements that Qualifies Jesus to be God ..
DEXTER: as we said , we shall talk in all .but I would take them one by one
DEXTER: how about checking the title: Son of God ?
DEXTER: as a first step toward the devinity of Jesus
al diazgerrero: it is not easy for me because you don't beleive in the revelations in the bible, where it clearly specifies that jesuschrist is the lord
DEXTER: good . that is another clue for u that Jesus is God , because he was called Lord,. right ?
DEXTER: now we have two things : Son of God , and Lord ..
DEXTER: right ?
al diazgerrero: yes, basically yes
DEXTER: lets take the first one . - as I said - I shall go through whatever u give me that indicates that Jesus is God .. and If some of the statements u forgot , I will discuss it with u and remind u with them ..
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: so we shall help each other in this
DEXTER: Son of God . this is the topic ..
DEXTER: if you execuse me , i wanna get the bible ready for we have a lot of quotes now
DEXTER: so gimme a min. and brb soon
al diazgerrero: k
DEXTER: am back .. sorry for being late
al diazgerrero: no problem
DEXTER: christians usually tell us that Bible states in BOLD that Jesus is the only son of God, then how do muslims say that God has no children ?
al diazgerrero: i ignore the muslim creed
al diazgerrero: in many ways
al diazgerrero: i only know that mahoma is your only prophet, and alah your only god
DEXTER: we have seen previously that in order to understand what Jesus said , we have to understand that in the language of the ppl he talked to - the jews and Herbow language ,,
DEXTER: because If i told u an exact translation for one sentence in Arabic , then u would certainly misunderstand it . for example:
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: in arabic we say : what is your color?
al diazgerrero: aha
DEXTER: ur answer would be definitely not the way it was intended to be ,.,.
DEXTER: u will answer like: white or balck or whatever.
DEXTER: while this Q was intended to mean : how are u ?
al diazgerrero: interesting
DEXTER: and the same thing goes for english translation to Arabic ,, if u translating the word: look up - into Arabic literally , it will never mean the way it was intended to be as : Search ..
DEXTER: this is a rule for translation in all languages
DEXTER: that in order to understand the meaning of the word , we have to know its meaning in the original language and how speakers of that language understood the word ..
al diazgerrero: ok, i got that
DEXTER: i think that everyone agrees to this .
DEXTER: now .. let us ask ourselves a Q ..
DEXTER: How many sons does God have ?
al diazgerrero: one single son
DEXTER: I want u to help me in answering this .. How many sons does God have
DEXTER: ?
DEXTER: ok .. lets see what the Bibles says :
DEXTER: 1.Jacob is God's son and firstborn: “Israel is my son, even my firstborn” Exodus 4:22.
DEXTER: 2.Solomon is God's son “He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son”: 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
DEXTER: 3.Ephraim is God's firstborn: “for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
DEXTER: 4.Adam is the son of God “Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:38.
al diazgerrero: ephraim is the first son of israel
al diazgerrero: all the first born are his sons
al diazgerrero: in his law
al diazgerrero: all firts born belong to god
DEXTER: 5.Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: “Ye are the children of the LORD your God” Deuteronomy 14:1. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12. “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” Philippians 2:15. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God” 1 John 3:1-2. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Job 38:7.
al diazgerrero: jacob stole from esau the stauts of first son
DEXTER: “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 1:6. “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,” Genesis 6:4. “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” Genesis 6:2
DEXTER: as we can see , the term son of God was commonly used in the Bible before and after Jesus , to describe common ppl ..
al diazgerrero: not common ppl
al diazgerrero: as a explained
al diazgerrero: did not you see
al diazgerrero: what i said above
al diazgerrero: but i do see your point
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: we are all sons of god once we accept him, and fulfill his will
DEXTER: so the term son of God is not a unique term for Jesus , while we all are sons of God ..
al diazgerrero: go on...
DEXTER: something I would like to share with u
DEXTER: in Latin languages , English , French and Spanish , so forth ..
DEXTER: these Languages have capital letters and small letters
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: and they use it like God and god - Son and son ..
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: but knowing that Herbow and Arabic are not the same .. the letter has one form .. there is no difference in writing in Arabic and Hernow between Son and son.. u know what I mean ?
al diazgerrero: of course
DEXTER: As we can see, the use of the term “son of God“ when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus’ people
DEXTER: it was used before and after to describe someone who applies God's will on earth, who is close to God , Prophets , and good ppl
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: now lets check something else :
DEXTER: was Jesus the only Begotten Son of God?
DEXTER: lets see what the Bible states:
al diazgerrero: i am here go on
DEXTER: Read Psalms 2:7 - “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”.

DEXTER: Such terminology can be found quite extensively throughout the Bible. For example:
“My mother and my brothers are these which hear the word of God, and do it.”
Luke 8:21
“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”
Mark 3:35

al diazgerrero: exactly
DEXTER: Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus he defended himself with the following words :
DEXTER: “The Jews answered him (Jesus), saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, Ye are gods?’ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken...”
John 10:33-34
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..”)

al diazgerrero: so true
DEXTER: Many members of the Church point to John 10:33 to try and prove that Jesus claimed that he was the “son of God,” however, they stop here and to not bother to read Jesus’ answer in the next verse. In this case we must ask those who say that Jesus claimed to “literally” or “physically” be the “son of God” to apply their same standard to the rest of the passage and also claim that the Jews too are “literally” and “physically” “gods.” The only way to claim that Jesus was “literally” the son of God while the Jews were not “literally” gods is to claim that Jesus took Psalms 82:6 out of context. Something he would never do.
DEXTER: u know what I mean?
al diazgerrero: we both know, men canot be gods
DEXTER: As we can see from these and many other verses like them, “son of God” in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as “Son of God” (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and “son of God” (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same.
DEXTER: now lets see what the Grolier’s encyclopedia says under the heading Jesus Christ:
DEXTER: it says :
DEXTER: “During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be “my Lord.” Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as “my Lord.”.... it is unlikely that the title “Son of David” was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. “Son of God,” in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par -
DEXTER: .; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself” .
DEXTER: There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus refers to himself as “son of God.” They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in “The dictionary of the Bible” says: “Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.”
al diazgerrero: “Son of God,” equivalent of Messiah...
DEXTER: aha
DEXTER: what are u trying to say ,, explain to me
al diazgerrero: no, i am not trying to explain, you are explaining and i like your research
DEXTER: ok
DEXTER: Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the “son of Man“ (literally: “Human being”) 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people. - though the church disregarded the Gospel of Barnaba , but it is still a reference in our search ..
DEXTER: Jesus was not the son of a human man - human father - (according to both the Bible and the Qur’an). However, we find him constantly saying “I am the son of man” (eg. Matt. 17:12,Mark 8:38, Luke 9:56). Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say “I am a human being.”
al diazgerrero: listen friend, i have to go now, i will sign other from another location in about 30 min, pls standby
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: look
DEXTER: i have to go too
DEXTER: we shall talk later ,
al diazgerrero has signed out. (23/08/1426 08:33 م)