مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني
al diazgerrero: 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
al diazgerrero: 2 timothy3:16
al diazgerrero: i was looking for this scripture to give it to you
DEXTER: even if someone contradicted Jesus Christ ?
al diazgerrero: it clearly states: All scripture is inspired by God
al diazgerrero: i am not saying it, it is written
al diazgerrero: even if sometimes we don't agree, it certainly is the word of The lord
al diazgerrero: Lord
DEXTER: who is the Christ ? Jesus or Paul? if we are to follow Jesus , then I should know what he said . only then we can allow ourselves to see others saying and writing thousands of pages on it .. but if Jesus did not say that , then how can we attribute it to Jesus ?
al diazgerrero: paul was a minister of Jesus
al diazgerrero: a servant can not contradict the one he serves, friend
DEXTER: yes this verse says : all scriptures . and this verse was written in the first centuary when the new testiment was not yet identified . the Gospel of Baranab was one of the scriptures and yet it is not considered as wor dof God
DEXTER: word*
DEXTER: the new testiment was chosen in the thrid century and not in the time of this verse .
al diazgerrero: yes, only 27 books were considered as authentic
al diazgerrero: yes, i am aware of all this, i have been through this topic to many times, i know exactly how you feel
DEXTER: see considered as authentic .. who has the right to consider someting the word of God ?
al diazgerrero: but guess what there is absolutely no problem
DEXTER: did the four Gospels say that they are inspired ?
DEXTER: no !! it was said so after 3 centuries from Jesus' departure!! then how can we check what Paul ment by this verse, if at that time , there was not yet any book considered authentic!
DEXTER: do u know what i mean ?
al diazgerrero: that's the great thing about the bible
DEXTER: the GREAT thing about the BIBLE? which Bible are u talking about ? KJV ? RSV ? the Bible of the Catholics or the Protostants ?
DEXTER: and u know what I mean
DEXTER: each version is not the same as another ..
al diazgerrero: wich one do you read ?
DEXTER: the first thing to know : which one is the word of God TRUELY ?
DEXTER: it does not matter which one do I read ! but I wanna know which is Word of God !
al diazgerrero: well you can tell if the tree is good by its fruit
DEXTER: exactly !!!
DEXTER: and what was the friut of Paul ? he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep in all his 33 years on thi splanet !
al diazgerrero: why do you say that
DEXTER: i will tell u why :
al diazgerrero: yes?
DEXTER: give me a second to get the exact word in english
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: Jesus himself observed every single aspect of the religion of Moses steadfastly and uncompromisingly. He fasted as Moses fasted, he worshipped as Moses worshipped, he refrained from tasting a single pig, he believed in circumcision and himself was circumcised, he observed the Sabbath, never having violated it. He did this up until the crucifixion. It was only after the crucifixion, according to the Bible, that he allegedly returned in “visions” to Paul in order to nullify the law he had spent his whole life upholding. The Bible actually bears witness that during his lifetime, Jesus commanded his followers to follow the religion of Moses and threatened severe retribution from God for all of his followers who would forsake a single aspect of this religion UNTIL THE END OF TIME!
DEXTER: while Paul never did what Jesus asked us to do !! he Threw all this awya !
DEXTER: away*
al diazgerrero: i think you are right
al diazgerrero: but
al diazgerrero: you need to understand something carefully
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: there where two "laws"
DEXTER: ???
al diazgerrero: the ritual
al diazgerrero: law
al diazgerrero: all of the instructions of how to do a correct sacrifice of the sheep
DEXTER: ok
al diazgerrero: and the moral law
al diazgerrero: this Law
al diazgerrero: the moral law
al diazgerrero: are the 10 commandments
DEXTER: yeah .
al diazgerrero: these 10 will never pass
al diazgerrero: never
DEXTER: ?
al diazgerrero: but
DEXTER: what do u mean ?
DEXTER: u mean pass away . i got u
al diazgerrero: the other law was perfactly accomplished by Jesus , and so it was concluded because he consumed it as he himself was the perfect sacrifice
DEXTER: but what ? i will tell u : Paul ordered us to let them pass away ,, that is the truth
al diazgerrero: because all the ceremony and ritual was justa a simbol and figure of what it was originally written
DEXTER: while JEsus spent his whole life keeping the commandments , Paul comes and tells us that they were a curse on us !! a CURSE ??
DEXTER: Jesus never ate Pig , while Paul asked us to do so !!
DEXTER: Jesus sticked to the 10 commandments while Paul threw them away !! he asked nothing but faith !!
DEXTER: that is the fruit of Paul
DEXTER: and what makes us follow what Paul says ?
DEXTER: he did not even saw Jesus .
DEXTER: he was not there when Jesus preached !
al diazgerrero: he was speaking of the curse of the law of sin
DEXTER: my dear friend, Paul made Jesus as a curse !! imagine Jesus is a curse ! and all what Jesus kept in his whole life was a curse !! while jesus asked us to follow the commandments and keep them till the end of time and mentioned nothin about his atonement , Paul then comes and tells us that what Jesus did threw his whole life was invain !!
al diazgerrero: and there is this fact that paul was meant to be an apostole of the people that were not born jeew
al diazgerrero: *jew
DEXTER: why ? did Jesus ever preached other than the Jews ?
al diazgerrero: because the jew were meant to be the nation of God, but as they rejected jesus, god chose us, to become his new nation
DEXTER: Jesus said that he was sent only for the lost sheeps of Israel !
al diazgerrero: it is written that the good judge starts in his house
DEXTER: and Jesus always made sure that his message does not go out for others than the Jews ..
al diazgerrero: he started has you say
al diazgerrero: but what about when he preached to the woman of samaria
al diazgerrero: and the roman centurion
DEXTER: what did he tell that woman ? he told her that she is like a dog to him !! only because she was not jewish
DEXTER: and because she instisted he did what he wanted . and he did not preached her , but performed a miricle for her
al diazgerrero: the woman from canaan
al diazgerrero: that was the woman from canaan
DEXTER: thats all .. he never told her , believe in me on the cross atoning for ur sins!
al diazgerrero: i mean the woman that was taking out water
DEXTER: hmm .. lemmi check this
DEXTER: do u remember what verse is that ? or what chapter ?
al diazgerrero: sorry friend i am not good at numbers
DEXTER: ok
al diazgerrero: i will try from now on to write those down for you
DEXTER: so tell me now . if Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross , and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times , and he never mentioned any origianl sin , and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God , and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us , rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime .. after all of tha t, does anyone has the right to say these things and atribute them to Jesus without any proof from his side ?
DEXTER: If Paul never saw JEsus face , and never knew him , how can he tell that the one who saw was really Jesus ? not the Satan in some vision to astray ppl from the true message of Jesus ?
al diazgerrero: i don't understand it's a long question...
DEXTER: i will say that again
DEXTER: Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross .. and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times .. and he never mentioned any origianl sin ...and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God .. and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us.. rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime..
DEXTER: after all of that !! Does anyone have the rigth to say things that Jesus never said or preached and attribute them to Jesus without any proof ?
DEXTER: IF we love Jesus then we follow him .. not what others falsely say !
al diazgerrero: i beleieve that people like paul or someother author, did not write something different, what they did was explain a little more the teachings of Jesus christ
al diazgerrero: pay attention
al diazgerrero: did you know that once paul argued with peter ?
DEXTER: not really . enlighten me please
al diazgerrero: because, the instructions of jesus were clear: beleive in Him, receive him in there heart, baptize, and regret...
al diazgerrero: am i being clear?
DEXTER: yeah sure
al diazgerrero: but the apostoles, and jesus himself was jew
DEXTER: u mean from all this , that Paul was clearifying for us the true sayings and deeds of JEsus
DEXTER: isn't that right ?
al diazgerrero: and peter made the mistake of telling the new converted that they had to practice the circumcission
DEXTER: mistake ???? Jesus practiced that for God's sake!! and he was sinless .. wasn't he!!
al diazgerrero: and some other ritual practices of the old jew religion
al diazgerrero: yes jesus praticed it
DEXTER: then do not tell me it was a mistake!
al diazgerrero: because he was before all things obedient
al diazgerrero: peter's mistake yes
DEXTER: or Jesus then made a mistake . and I think u do not agree!!
al diazgerrero: becuase for instance, i am not jew
DEXTER: u are a christian , see: Christ--ian .. and that is supposed to mean that u follow the Chrsit and not Paulian : Paul--ian !! u know what I mean?
DEXTER: id JEsus practiced that , then that means we have to do that since he never said that we do not have to do i t!
al diazgerrero: you know what my problem is right now, that my english in christian matter is very poor, and it is difficult for me to explain to you what i have learned in spanish
DEXTER: i can help u in that
al diazgerrero: but i agree with you in the way that you feel
DEXTER: so tell me .what prrof did Paul give to validate the true sayings of his ?
DEXTER: proof**
al diazgerrero: john says that any spirit that confesses jesuschrist as the lord is saying the truth
al diazgerrero: that recognizes that He came in flesh
al diazgerrero: paul did not see him with his flesh eyes
DEXTER: my darling , that is not enough simplly because :
al diazgerrero: but by faith, because the things we can not see are eternal
DEXTER: Islam confessed that Jesus was the Christ , and confessed that Jesus was born miriculously , confessed that he was the Messiah ,,. in that concept we must all follow what Islam says !
al diazgerrero: i think that what paul wrote were some simple instructions for the churches he was
al diazgerrero: opening
DEXTER: so is that enough for us to believe ?
al diazgerrero: the islam is antichristian, becuase it denyes that christ is god
al diazgerrero: they think of jesus as a mesiah
DEXTER: yes .. and we shall talk about this matter later on
DEXTER: the Devinety of Jesus is a matter to be checked later on
al diazgerrero: the truth is that paul was not even born inside the jew nation
DEXTER: no my dear !! he was a jewish !
al diazgerrero: he was born somewhere in italy called tarso
DEXTER: and he tortured the believers in Jesus for a long while
al diazgerrero: that is why when he was killed he died as a roman citizen, decapitated
DEXTER: and that was in the land of the jews
al diazgerrero: not crucified like peter
al diazgerrero: the romans crucified other nations but not there own people
al diazgerrero: the cruciphiction was basically a roman torture
al diazgerrero: but paul was a doctor in the law
al diazgerrero: in the law i was telling you about
DEXTER: my dear !! Paul was a Jewish ,, thats what he said !! do u disbelieve him ?
al diazgerrero: they did not like jesus because
al diazgerrero: people called him rabi
al diazgerrero: and jesus was to young to be a rabi
al diazgerrero: thast why they asked him
al diazgerrero: with what authority was he doing what he did
al diazgerrero: *that;s
al diazgerrero: that's
al diazgerrero: 1 min pls*
DEXTER: yeah ,, and i ask u the same thing! in what authority he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep and preach through whole his lifetime ! ?
DEXTER: According to the Bible, Jesus spent his whole life in strict adherence to the commandments of the law of Moses . He departed leaving his followers with the following words:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19
so in what authority does Paul come and break the commandments right and left ?
al diazgerrero: as i said, he never knocked down anything,
al diazgerrero: as i said
al diazgerrero: the Law, are the ten commandments
al diazgerrero: but when jesus was killed in the cross
al diazgerrero: he concluded...
al diazgerrero: or how can i say this
DEXTER: me dear ! he ate pork , he did not practice what Jesus practiced !!
DEXTER: He CONCLUDED ??? and not AUTHORIZED ?
al diazgerrero: paul did not eat pork, but he said that god's kingdom was not of food or water but of spirit
DEXTER: Only Jesus is authorized to break what he says
al diazgerrero: he did not break
DEXTER: no dear,, Paul said :“If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.”
1 Corinthians 10:27
al diazgerrero: jesus did not break, he obe
al diazgerrero: *obeyed
al diazgerrero: see the context
al diazgerrero: he was explainning of
al diazgerrero: all the produce that was selled in that time, some of the meat was dedicated to idols
DEXTER: tell me my friend , is not not allowed in christianity to eat Pork ?
DEXTER: is it allowed or noT?
al diazgerrero: me myself i don't eat pork
DEXTER: Christian churches order their followers to eat everything even Prok !! while Jesus Never did that !! but he was keeping the Law of moses in which not allowing to eat Pork
al diazgerrero: yes, we as humans have sinned in many awful ways, that's precisely why Jesus came to earth in the first place
DEXTER: so now as a conclusion , do we agree that Jesus did not say a word of most of the doctrines that Paul preached ?
al diazgerrero: christ did not face the sittuations that paul did personaly
DEXTER: what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: i beleive that paul obeyed christ as christ obeyed the father
DEXTER: how do u say that when Paul attributed things that Jesus never said or did or preached ? how do u say that when Paul did things Jesus asked us to undo , and broke things Jesus always kept ?
DEXTER: Paul asked for faith in Jesus Christ on the cross atoning for our sins, while Jesus never said that!! not even while he was on the Cross !!
al diazgerrero: paul obeyed so much, that it is written that he went to the temple to purify himself...
al diazgerrero: as the -law- said so
DEXTER: my friend !! U said Paul obeyed Jesus , while Jesus said :. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..... and Paul never kept the commandment .
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