اقتباس:
What is wrong with you people???? What part of ..... I'll have to get back to the rest of your post another time.... Did you not understand! As I have tried to explain before.. The device I use does not make it easy to reply to multiple points when the post in question is rather long..constantly having to scroll up and down faffing about with quotes etc.. It's possible to miss a point.
Sorry , my bad .
اقتباس:
Faith is not antagonistic to logic....biblical faith and reason go well together. However, many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses.
Whatyou say here and what you say in other places doesn't match . For instance , when I ask you why should I believe in the message if the messenger cannot be trusted , you tell me it's because they were chosen by God while you forget the fact that I'm saying there is no proof of them being chosen by him . Isn't that faith without evidence . And furthermore , DON'T try to make it look like I'M the one with misconceptions . You're the one who kept saying :
اقتباس:
You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable. Logic can be disproved.
And I'm not misunderstanding if I say that you're separating logic and faith here .
اقتباس:
People believe in laws of logic. Yet, laws of logic are not material. They are abstract and cannot be experienced by the senses. We can write down a law of logic such as the law of non-contradiction (It is impossible to have A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship.) but the sentence is only a physical representation of the law, not the law itself. When people use laws of logic, they have confidence in something they cannot actually observe with the senses... this is a type of faith.
Way to go ! Now what does this have to do with the current case ? You said logic can be disproved . That means 1+1 can equal 5 . This is not a matter of science or physical senses . Being unable to sense this has nothing to do with the fact that it's a self evident fact that cannot be disproved , science or not . Having faith in a religion isn't the same as having faith in such facts . Trying to make the two look the same is far from correct .
اقتباس:
When we have confidence that the universe will operate in the future as it has in the past, we are acting on faith.. we all presume that gravity will work the same next Friday as it does today.
False . This is science . And using it , we reach conclusions about how the universe works based on expirementing . However , it is not absolute . Scientific laws can be broken or altered . That however wouldn't affect our faiths and it is not currently the issue . The issue is that you falsely made science=logic . Logic is beyond science .
اقتباس:
We don't rely on faith at the expense of logic and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to get across that we don't "demand" that evidence for our faith in God needs always to conform to mans logical laws and ideas.
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Faith in God isn't blind . Anyone who can observe existence knows for sure it did not appear out of nothing for nothing . That's the thing which demolishes the faith of Atheists . The thing is , their faith is in the physical and logical impossibilities altogether . However , that's where we theists differ . Why should I believe that YOUR religion is right ? Why should I believe it is not an innovation man or someone else ? Of course you can say the same about ours but that's where evidence and proof is presented . Anything else is faith based on no evidence .
اقتباس:
he Bible has many miracles recorded.. By today's logical reasoning many would choose to belief they did not happen because they were against the laws of logic as we know them. I have faith that God operates outside our notions and understanding and so have no problem accepting them as proof of God.
False . Miracles are not against logic . They may be against science but NOT against logic . STOP . COMPARING . SCIENCE . TO LOGIC . A staff becoming a snake , a sea splitting , birht with no father , splitting the moon , and all the miracles of the prophets might be physically impossible - and a number of them isn't impossible physically even ! - but they are NEVER logically impossible . It's physically impossible to outspeed light - there are doubts about this currently but whatever - but it's not logically impossible . An example of the logically impossible is saying that a square is not a square at the same time ! See the difference ?
Furthermore , it doesn't make sense to take these miracles as proof without being sure that they were not tricks or making sure that the records which tell about them are authnetic and accurate . What you're supposed to do is provide your reasons for believing that they are and not just "There are miracles . End of the story" .
اقتباس:
I guess I had in mind those muslims that look to scientific facts found in the Quran as proof of its divinity.. I should have put that in the context of my post. I did not.. My bad. That's is a dangerous use of logic.. Because it's quite likely one day someone will come along and logically disprove a claim.. And where does that leave you
False again . While there are indeed inaccurate claims about scientific miracles of Islam that are based on eagerness and rash acts , that doesn't deny there are indeed accurate ones .These ones are based on FACTS . Not hypothesis , not thoeries , but FACTS . Like the fact that mountains are pegs . Like the fact that the embryo matches what Quran says . If any of these change for some reason , that would be breaking the norm and physical laws of the world . Otherwise , they CAN'T be disproved . And for the record , you shouldn't be worried about us . Scientific miracles are not something we base our belief on . They are yet more evidence for Islam but they are not THE evidence . If one , two , or all of them are disproved - not that it's gonna happen - , our faith won't budge an iota .
What would make a problem is if - IF - Quran stated a fact about the world around us and it turned out to be wrong . That's what didn't and won't happen . Allah never says something that is wrong . If you believe otherwise when it comes to your religion , that is your issue .
اقتباس:
In regards to your mathematical equation which I know some people use to explain the trinity.. 1+1+1=1 well I never see the point to that.. How can one measure the infinite by the finite? Surely if the infinite is a creation how can it be applied to explain the Creator? I will have to think on that one..
While I do see this equation as false , where did I bring it up ? I won't discuss it though .
اقتباس:
When I say you are wrong to believe the Bible is corrupted I mean as a Christian I don't see as a Christian that the verses I have thus far been shown conclusively prove that the Torah was changed.. But that some Jews .. Changed some scripture
Then allow me to say that you are either ignoring this fact , or are simply incapable of seeing properly . If - IF - we agree for the sake of argument that the signs of Quran can be explained either way , Sunnah gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM to deny anymore .
اقتباس:
Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"
So why keep arguing about something so simple that every Muslims through the history of Islam understands ?! And why is it that instead of defending your religion against this claim made by Islam , you try to deny that Islam says so in the first place ? It makes me feel that your faith isn't strong enough for it .
اقتباس:
I find it strange you don't find it odd that God could not or chose not to protect His previous word from change ..thereby needing to send another message. It seems to me such a stand goes against Gods nature of being omniscient. I mean God would know the message would be changed why bother with the prophets why not cut to the chase and just send Mohammed and we'd all be Muslim. For some kind of test? To what purpose..?
I have seriously reached the breaking point . I kept explaining this to you and your other buddy for MONTHS . And you JUST ignore it with a straight face . Here , I'll quote someone who said "NONE OF YOUR BLOODY BUSINESS !" . SERIOUSLY ! Have you no shame act like I didn't provide this signs TWICE ?! :
21:23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.
So just because you Mistress are not able to comprehend why Allah does something doesn't give you the right to object . That's something you wouldn't even dare do with YOUR religion . Ironically , when I asked how can the all powerful be defeated - exalted is Allah from what you describe ! - by his creature , your freind answered "It was in his planning" and you didn't seem to object or differ . What's more irritating is how you make it look like I'm sying Allah - exalted he is - didn't KNOW the corruption would occur . Something we went over two or three times ! He KNEW it would happen . And he COULD have protected them . But he entrued the people of the book and they FAILED the test . Why would he do that ? None of your business . And I guarintee that you'll say such a thing WHENEVER I ask you about anything in Christianity . So spare us . So much for "Faith" .
اقتباس:
I do not feel able to offer criticism on the inconsistencies in the Quran. I do not wish to cause offence, I know I am not allowed to criticise Islam on this forum.
Oh yeah . "We interrupt this conversation to present you (Muslims are bad guys)" . First of all , in our belief , there is NOTHING you'd "critisize" . It's perfect . But , if you have any claims or allegations , we're glad to level them to the ground . That's what anyone of any religion would believe . So as long as you watch our for how you present your argument and avoid flooding the place with them , NONE of us fears your allegations .
اقتباس:
21:18 Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.
اقتباس:
How is it possible for God not to know His creation would fail to keep His message?
Since you wrote this before I answered , I'll just ignore it . If you STILL repeat it AGAIN after my answer in THIS reply , you're just missing around .
اقتباس:
Can I be clear on this ..? When you say Islam says.. Do you refer to what the Quran says or is it muslims who say this based on the deliberations of Muslim scholars?
Don't you DARE try and force your personal - and baseless - opinions on our book . Not while you can't even read it properly . It's Quran and Sunnah who say that . And from those two , scholars and non scholars - evne illiterate people - understand that the people of the book distorted the message .
اقتباس:
Seeing as manuscript evidence for the Bible dates to well before the time of Mohammed and matches up with what we have today.
You're so sensetive about the matter that you jump the gun to defend the Bible while I haven't even addressed it . I've been trying to make this simple fact "Islam says the Bible is distorted" to you . I haven't even discussed wither that is true or not and I DID say I'll take this on faith until I acquire knowledge of the subject because I'm convinced of the evidence that Islam is right .
اقتباس:
Personally I don't think your prophet ever viewed the previous scriptures in the way muslims today do, I feel it's centuries of Muslim scholars who realise the Quran does not confirm the previous scriptures thus leaving a dilemma for the Quran to be truth the Bible has to be false..
Well with all due respect , this personal opinion of yours isn't worth a penny . Already demonstrated why it's baseless .
اقتباس:
its refreshing to see you take something by faith.. This on the method of transmission of the Torah.. I really don't know how some Jews in one locality could have caused the ORIGINAL Torah to be changed.
YET again , my discussion with you all these months isn't about evidence with or against corruption , it's about the ABSURD claim that "Islam doesn't say the Bible is distorted" , it's about you FORCING your opinion - based on nothing - on our book .