حواري مع نصراني

هذا الحوار جرى على المسنجر مع أحد النصارى باللغة الانكليزية .. أرجو أن تعم الفائدة

disenio_moroleon: hello, God bless you

DEXTER: Hi ,. May God guide us all to the Truth

DEXTER: how are u ?

disenio_moroleon: fine thank you, what is your name

DEXTER: I am Wael ..26m .. u ?

disenio_moroleon: alex,33m, from mexico

disenio_moroleon: i see you are interested in God

DEXTER: nice to chat with u Alex

DEXTER: yeah I am ..

DEXTER: so ?

disenio_moroleon: if i can help you in any question you have, i would be pleased

DEXTER: yeah gimme a minute

disenio_moroleon: ok

DEXTER: now tell me . what do u know about God ?

disenio_moroleon: well, only what the bible states, are you christian ?

DEXTER: not really.. but am interested in christianity

disenio_moroleon: thats a good step

DEXTER: good .. so we agree on this point , that whatever the Bible states , and not what others do

DEXTER: do we agree on that or not?

disenio_moroleon: yes, loke for example:the nature of God is spirit
disenio_moroleon: and God is love
disenio_moroleon: he created you because he wants to love you
disenio_moroleon: in fact He loves you
disenio_moroleon: just as you are

DEXTER: yeah .. i do not want to talk about what He loves and Hates .. actually i wanna know the nature of God and who is God , from the Bible and not from what others say

disenio_moroleon: everything i am going to tell you is in the bible
DEXTER: do not forget to say the verse and chapter
DEXTER: because i wanna check it out too .. and discuss it
DEXTER: and what version u are using
disenio_moroleon: i use a version called reyna-valera
disenio_moroleon: it,s in spanish
disenio_moroleon: i am mexican
DEXTER: yeah. but lets use an english one .. shall we ?
disenio_moroleon: and i suggest that you visit a christian church
disenio_moroleon: they always have the answers we need, because they use the bible
DEXTER: i hope u are good at english the way i am .. English is not my mother-tongue ..
disenio_moroleon: neither is mine
DEXTER: thats too bad . do u mean we are not gonna talk about God ?
disenio_moroleon: what is your first language
disenio_moroleon: ?
DEXTER: Arabic
disenio_moroleon: and wher do you live
DEXTER: middle east . Syria
disenio_moroleon: *where
disenio_moroleon: God bless you friend
disenio_moroleon: this is not a coincidence
DEXTER: Thanks . so can we discuss it out together ?
disenio_moroleon: i was praying God to allow me to speak to someone like you
DEXTER: hmm
disenio_moroleon: did you know in jesus all countries are saved and in grace
disenio_moroleon: everybody
DEXTER: look .. lets talk about God from the Scripture .. do not think that ur telling me somethings without reference means that i shall believe .. remember . am not christian
disenio_moroleon: and i am aware that this is a challenge for you to believe
DEXTER: yeah
disenio_moroleon: i will say it again
disenio_moroleon: everithing i am telling you is in the bible
DEXTER: explain to me from the scripture .. no reference , to creed . I hope we are clear about that .
disenio_moroleon: in the first and second book of the bible
DEXTER: i shall ask Qs and u help me in finding the reference in the Bible .
DEXTER: is that ok ?
disenio_moroleon: the old and new testament
disenio_moroleon: feel free to ask any specific thing
DEXTER: good .
disenio_moroleon: i dont have a bible with me right now
DEXTER: christians beleive that God is Trinity is that right ?
disenio_moroleon: but i will not lie to you
disenio_moroleon: and i can give you that information later
disenio_moroleon: yes
disenio_moroleon: three different persons
disenio_moroleon: but one God
disenio_moroleon: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
disenio_moroleon: may i add you up ?
DEXTER: aha
disenio_moroleon: ok, what else, do you want to know
DEXTER: but u have just said three not one God !
DEXTER: Father is 1 , Son is 2 , Holy Ghost is 3
al diazgerrero: only one God, three different persons
DEXTER: am not getting that
DEXTER: what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: well actually
al diazgerrero: that is something no man can understand completely
al diazgerrero: but i can give you an example
DEXTER: why ? the Bible said that God is not {the author} of confusion !!
al diazgerrero: in Genesis
al diazgerrero: the first book
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: of the bible
al diazgerrero: God says:
al diazgerrero: "lets create man"
DEXTER: lets create man in our image ,, thats what the verse says
al diazgerrero: can you see, He says -"lets"-
al diazgerrero: the word -"lets"- is plural
DEXTER: thank u .. but i wanna ask something . the origianl lang. for the old testiment is in Herbow .. right ?
al diazgerrero: He does not say "i will create...
al diazgerrero: i beleive so
DEXTER: good . then u seem to be completely ignorant about this language ..
al diazgerrero: in Hebrew
al diazgerrero: yes i am
al diazgerrero: i am not hebrew
DEXTER: because this (S) or plural is also in Arabic is used for respect ..
DEXTER: when i talk to my boss in arabic i talk to him in plural form .. and he is still one !
DEXTER: and Herbow is the same also
al diazgerrero: thats interesting
al diazgerrero: but can i give you an example
al diazgerrero: God almighty is the creator, and as a Creator he is the authority
DEXTER: do the jews believe in Trinity ? they understand Herbow more than me and u !!
al diazgerrero: let me tell you that the word trinity never appears in the bible
DEXTER: exactly and that is more confusing!
DEXTER: we said : no reference , no creed //
al diazgerrero: why are you confused, if the bible's main message is that God loves us
DEXTER: good . and i wanna know who is God and what he is !
DEXTER: the first commandment is: O Israel , Your Lord is One God , therefore love thee God with all your heart and all your MIND !
al diazgerrero: and in the same way when some bible writters, describe somtimes the Holy Ghost, others the Son or the Verb, many other times the father
al diazgerrero: God is an organization
DEXTER: see !! we have to love God with our minds too and that means we should use the mind and not ignore it in knowing the nature of God
al diazgerrero: you know that like in a country like mine, here in mexico there is only one governmetn
al diazgerrero: government
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: one
al diazgerrero: but inside this ONE government there are three powers
al diazgerrero: Executive, Legislative, and Juditial
al diazgerrero: three different powers, one government, each independent from one another, but still one same government
al diazgerrero: is that confussing
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: good . i wanna ask asomething now please
al diazgerrero: did you get the idea
DEXTER: may i ask somethin ?
al diazgerrero: yes
al diazgerrero: please, ask
DEXTER: good .
DEXTER: what does Trinity mean ? it means as the creed of Nicea mentoined: Father is God , Son is God, Holy Spirit is God , and they are not three Gods, but One God .
DEXTER: is that right ?
al diazgerrero: trinity means three
DEXTER: this is the creed of Nicea . is that right or wrong ?
al diazgerrero: those creeds were written by catholics in there councils
DEXTER: so ?
DEXTER: is it right or wrong ?
al diazgerrero: but for true chrisian beleviers it really doesn;t matter what men writes, we only have for valid what the bible says
DEXTER: good . if trinity is not in the Bible , where did they got it from ?
DEXTER: haven't we agreed that no reference , no creed! ?
al diazgerrero: the catholic capital is in italy
al diazgerrero: in rome
DEXTER: i don't care if it was on the moon
al diazgerrero: and they used a language called latin
DEXTER: is trinity in the Bible or not ?
al diazgerrero: in latin trinity is 3
DEXTER: if not , who did u know that God is Trinity ?
al diazgerrero: can i say somthing?
DEXTER: what verse did say: God is Trinity ?
DEXTER: sure go on
al diazgerrero: i said before that no where
al diazgerrero: there are to main kind of beleviers
DEXTER: if such a crucial matter is not in the Bible , then how did u know that God is Trinity ?
al diazgerrero: this will explain many things, pay attention
al diazgerrero: the bishop of rome the pope
al diazgerrero: he is an authority in himself, for the people that beleive what they say
al diazgerrero: they are the catholics
DEXTER: my friend , i do not care what the pope said .. i wanna know what the Bible said !!
DEXTER: does the pope knows God more than God himself ?
al diazgerrero: and they say, write and do many things that are not written and authorized by God
al diazgerrero: unfortunattely yes, the vatican says that he is like God here on earth
DEXTER: my friend do not try to go round and round . i know about christianity more than u think ! please answer me .. u said in the beginning: i know God from the Bible.. and u said that God is Trinity , then where does it say that ? is that difficult ?
al diazgerrero: take it easy
DEXTER: is God that disabled to tell us the truth about himslef? am not sure about that. am trust me i am so cool
al diazgerrero: ok
al diazgerrero: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible
al diazgerrero: and if you read the bible
DEXTER: i read it more than the Pope himself .
al diazgerrero: it shouldnt be so difficult to see that the hole bible leads us to something very important: Jesuschrist
DEXTER: good . u have just said very important statement: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible!! now where is Trinity in the Bible ?!
al diazgerrero: he is the answer
al diazgerrero: he said: I am the way, the truth, and life
al diazgerrero: you can not reach God except through me
al diazgerrero: it is not religion, it is a relationship with God through Jesus
DEXTER: if there is not a single reference in the Bible that God is Trinity , then there is only two answers for that puzzle : either God is One in absolute and not Trinity , or there are three Gods as we have just seen !
DEXTER: imagine !! not a single verse to tell us that God is Trinity or three persons !
al diazgerrero: and if you confesse with your mouth that you beleive in jesuschrist, and allow him to live inside of you He promised to send the Holy Spirit, who will help you understand His words
DEXTER: u are going far away from the subject ..
DEXTER: lets keep to the trinity
al diazgerrero: probably from the subject, but not from gods will, because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere
DEXTER: good . u are contradicting urself now : because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere.. now tell me . where is Trinity in his words ?
al diazgerrero: i said before that the word trinity is not in the text
DEXTER: how can u believe in it if it is not there ? is God trinity or not ?
al diazgerrero: god himself never commanded me to beleive in that specific word
DEXTER: then what is he commanded us to believe ?
al diazgerrero: that he is the living God
DEXTER: forget the word . it is not in the Bible.. now tell me .. where did the Bible say that God is three persons but One God ?
al diazgerrero: and that there is no other god
al diazgerrero: and then he commands us to love
al diazgerrero: to love our neighbor us we love ourselves
DEXTER: before He commands me of anything , I must undurstand God , know who He is , is He One or more .. u know what I mean ?
al diazgerrero: the bible never says that
DEXTER: isn't that His First Commandment? to Love thee Lord with all thee minds ?
al diazgerrero: yes
DEXTER: before telling anyting , He commanded me to undertand God .. to use my mind
DEXTER: so lets Love God with all our mind .. shall we?
al diazgerrero: yes in that order it means that you have to love him with all your sincere capacity
al diazgerrero: because in you mind are your thoughts
DEXTER: exactly . i wanna love God in the frist place before going to anohter point . and e commanded me to love Him in all my mind .
al diazgerrero: you should think of God as often as possible
DEXTER: I believe in God , my friend . but maybe not the way you do , and thats why I am here with u
al diazgerrero: for example everytime you are said or worried, or a problems does not go away
al diazgerrero: you should first of all think of God
DEXTER: I do .. trust me . and because of that , am trying to look for the nature of God in the Bible
al diazgerrero: because he is more important, and the most imprtant thing in life because he is life
DEXTER: is he ONE or THREE? ONE IN a TRINITY? HOW DID U KNOW THAT ?
al diazgerrero: i thought we were going to leave that word behind
DEXTER: ONE IN THREE PERSONS << is that better ?
al diazgerrero: there is the mistery because God can not divide himself
DEXTER: aha
DEXTER: if He can not devide himself , then why three persons ?
DEXTER: why not 1 perosn ?
DEXTER: as He is ONE
al diazgerrero: i think it is better to say that there are three persons in one God
DEXTER: Three persons in ONE GOD >> explain it how it could be
al diazgerrero: can i tell you something
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: do you know where sin started
DEXTER: my sins?
al diazgerrero: no
al diazgerrero: not your personal or my personal sins
DEXTER: and do not change the subject . we are talking about God not sins. i know the so-called original sin ..
al diazgerrero: i mean Sin
al diazgerrero: where
DEXTER: i want to ask u someting too ..
al diazgerrero: where did it begin
DEXTER: did u eat from the apple that Adam ate ?
DEXTER: do u know its taste ?
DEXTER: is it difficult to understand ?
al diazgerrero: one minute please
DEXTER: ok
DEXTER: u there?
DEXTER: hello ?
al diazgerrero: yes
al diazgerrero: i am at my work
al diazgerrero: and was in to something
DEXTER: ok me too . take ur time .. i understand .
al diazgerrero: but i am back now
DEXTER: w/b
al diazgerrero: i was remembering that in the bible nothing is sais of an apple
al diazgerrero: *said
al diazgerrero: it is written of a fruit
al diazgerrero: but let me tell you that Sin did not start there
DEXTER: whatever ..
DEXTER: fruit or apple
DEXTER: did u eat that apple ?
DEXTER: do u know how it tastes ?
al diazgerrero: hehehe, you wer checking it out right
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: no i was busy at work
al diazgerrero: you think i ma trying to fool you
DEXTER: no am trying to discuss it out .
DEXTER: I wanna love God with all my mind . this is the first commandment . remember ?
al diazgerrero: i would never lie to you
al diazgerrero: yes and that is something good, but according to the new testament
DEXTER: good . so did u eat that fruit? this is the second run from my Qs right now
al diazgerrero: jesuschrist is the way remeber
al diazgerrero: *remember
al diazgerrero: Sin did not start there
DEXTER: then where tell me
al diazgerrero: in heaven, with the disobedience of the rebel angel called lucifer
DEXTER: ok .. do we hold responsibilty for this ?
al diazgerrero: our responsability is not to ignore the attacks of him
DEXTER: good . now tell me.. are we responsible for Adam eatin that fruit ?
DEXTER: ha ? are we or not ?
DEXTER: still there ?
DEXTER: hello ?
al diazgerrero: sorry friend
al diazgerrero: i was busy suddenly
DEXTER: its ok
DEXTER: i understand .
DEXTER: so are u gonna asnwer me frankly and tell me no lies ?
al diazgerrero: in the garden there was also the tree of life
DEXTER: my friend , I know the story trust me
DEXTER: i just wanna know : are we responsible for that sin or not?
al diazgerrero: and when adam disobeid, he lost his right to be there, and so his family, when they could not eat from the tree of life, then is when the death process started
al diazgerrero: thats why we inherit death
DEXTER: do u mean that death is because of that sin ?
al diazgerrero: yes, the pay of sin is death
DEXTER: then tell me , why do animals die ?
DEXTER: did they eat from that fruit too ?
al diazgerrero: interesting
al diazgerrero: yes, all the creatures
DEXTER: ??!!!
al diazgerrero: thats why the bible says that the earth suffers at one, like a living organism
DEXTER: what all creatuers ?
al diazgerrero: all means all
DEXTER: they all ate from that fruit ?
al diazgerrero: i could not asure that, but i can tell you this, before sin appeared, there were not even thorns in this world,it was perfectly beautiful
al diazgerrero: and thats why when Jesus was killed that he wore in his head a crown of thorns, to undo the curse
DEXTER: then how can u tell me that we inherit death because of the fruit , while all other creatures die too ? u pormised to tell the truth
al diazgerrero: we inherit death because of the sin of disobedience, because God was clear to adam, he was warned
DEXTER: see now !!!: two pillars of chrsitianity u were anable to proove for me !
DEXTER: and do animals disobey God too ?
DEXTER: because every creature dies .. that means , all creatures disobey God
al diazgerrero: animals, are like babies, they don't know annything
DEXTER: that means: they do not disobey God !!
DEXTER: then why they die ?
al diazgerrero: because they live in this same world
DEXTER: no my friend that is not the reason . if God was mad at me , then He will not curse u because u are living in the same wolrd .
DEXTER: that is not fair .. and God does is the absolutely fair . is He?
al diazgerrero: it is written that all the world suffers at one, because of the wikcedness of sin, not because of your wikcedness
DEXTER: why do I have to suffer for somethig i did not do ? is that fair or not? just answer me .. is it fair or not ?
al diazgerrero: i think that God knows what he is doing
al diazgerrero: in His own way,because he loves us
al diazgerrero: if he let His own Son die, he surely wants you to participate in this task
DEXTER: that is a great word : He loves us .. then why should we pay penelty for something we did not do ?
DEXTER: if u love ur son , then u will not punish him for what the son of ur friend did .. !
al diazgerrero: and why did Jesus suffer ?
DEXTER: thats what i wanna know!
DEXTER: for what ?
al diazgerrero: because he loves us, and he does not want us to die for ever
DEXTER: if he loves us, then why should i die for something i did not do ?
DEXTER: did u eat from that fruit? no neither did I .. then that is not fair
al diazgerrero: do you want to be a part of his plans?
DEXTER: i want to stick to his commandments . : to love my Lord with all my mind
DEXTER: this is God's first commandment . i wanna practice it
al diazgerrero: that means you want to stick to his plans, because you can not love and disobey at the same time
DEXTER: look . the first is first .. do not tell me to love others while first commandment is not yet practiced
DEXTER: i wanna know God with all my mind to love Him .. thats why i wanna know if i hold responsibilty fir something i did not do ..
DEXTER: if He shoulders me soemthing I did not do , then I know now one of God's sides, and that is He is not fair.
al diazgerrero: one moment please
DEXTER: ok tyt
al diazgerrero: you are free to think whatever you like, but the truth is that you are alive right
DEXTER: aha
al diazgerrero: and maybe he "unfairly gave you the gift of life"
DEXTER: ? what do u mean ?
al diazgerrero: well you are saying God is unfair
DEXTER: NO! Never . God is the MOST FAIR .
DEXTER: if God is not Fair , then who esle is ?
al diazgerrero: ok, friend
al diazgerrero: then watch your words
DEXTER: I am am trying to understand origoanl sin thats all
al diazgerrero: the original sin is disobedience
al diazgerrero: and you are no longer in that curse of the original sin once you accept Jesus in your life
DEXTER: but u have just disobeyed God !!
al diazgerrero: why
al diazgerrero: how
DEXTER: God's first commandment is : LOVE THEE LORD WITH ALL THEE MIND.. and u are telling me to accept something that is not logic!
DEXTER: if God is Fair , then why I am responsible for something i did not do ?
al diazgerrero: what is not logic, do you think god is logic, he is not humanly logic
DEXTER: If God is not humanly logic , then how does He commands me to love him with all my mind ?
al diazgerrero: because he has the right to, he is your creator
DEXTER: if I do not understand Him , then this command has a false one !
al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
DEXTER: or there is no original sin nor trinity as u could not proove
al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
DEXTER: I do understand him ,. maybe better than christians themselves
DEXTER: but what I do not understand is the pillars of Christianity
al diazgerrero: ok, thats good
DEXTER: Trinity, Original Sin .. as far
DEXTER: and yet u are not making me love God with all my mind , but asking me to have Blind faith ,
DEXTER: and that is not what God wants .
DEXTER: He wants me to love Him with all my mind
al diazgerrero: ok, i think, you don't need my help...
al diazgerrero: you are smarter than me
DEXTER: why ? are all chrsitians unable to proove Trinity from the Bible? that means this is not true! it means this is a false creed ..
DEXTER: if there is not a single verse for it !! then why should I believe in it!!? just because the Pope said that ? i do not worship the Pope .. but my creator ..
al diazgerrero: well why don't you enlighten me
al diazgerrero: yes,that is good, we should only woreship our Lord almighty
DEXTER: good then we agree now
DEXTER: that means: I should not believe in someting unless God said that clearly .
DEXTER: for example :
DEXTER: God said in countless places that He is ONE!
DEXTER: that means :: He is ONE! and not any other thing rather than ONE!
DEXTER: is it clear? ONE means: ONE in everything ..
DEXTER: and since there is not a single verse that validates Trinity or that three persons are merged or all are one , then how can I take it for granted ?
DEXTER: God never said that .. then I should not beleive in something God did not say!
DEXTER: in that way , I love God with all my mind
al diazgerrero: have you ever read the evangelism of john
DEXTER: only that way , I practice the first commandment ONLY!
DEXTER: I wanna read the Bible .. not anything esle!
al diazgerrero: well that book is inside the bible
DEXTER: I wanna know God from the Bible .. because if it is not in the Bible , then it should not be anywhere esle

و الحوار مازال مستمراً

بارك الله فيك أخي الكريم .. ولكن لا تدعنا ننتظر بقية هذا الحوار الشائق

السلام عليكم .. هذا حوار آخر دار مع احد الاشخاص .. و اظنه هندوسي و الله اعلم .. و انتهى بالفرار حاملا معه ذيول الذل و الهزيمة ..

DEXTER: hi
enjoywithme762000: hi
enjoywithme762000: asl
DEXTER: 26 m .. u ?
enjoywithme762000: same
DEXTER: wow . same age too ?
enjoywithme762000: ya
DEXTER: good . u said u have a different point of view .. may i know it ?
enjoywithme762000: ya definitely
enjoywithme762000: i do beleive in a god but in different god
DEXTER: be more specific
enjoywithme762000: god does not do bad or good
enjoywithme762000: god is above of doing good or bad
DEXTER: umm . and who is God then ? Jesus ?
enjoywithme762000: god is one who is above this thinking of doing good or bad
enjoywithme762000: doing good or bad is rask of human beings nor good
enjoywithme762000: is the task of human beings
DEXTER: i see ..
DEXTER: and u are not a christian as i see
enjoywithme762000: i do not follow any particilar relegion
enjoywithme762000: i have my own concept
DEXTER: hmm . and ur thought came from ?
DEXTER: using ur mind ?
enjoywithme762000: by seeing and observimg this world
DEXTER: i see
DEXTER: now we agree to some points
DEXTER: that God is not against mind . right?
enjoywithme762000: ya
DEXTER: good . u have gone as far as possible good for a human being
DEXTER: now tell me my friend
enjoywithme762000: if good has the power to good and bad ---it will make everybody happy
enjoywithme762000: why it would like to see his children in sad condirion
DEXTER: accroding to ur observation , do u think that God who created this Univese is unable to fulfill his will in this planet?
enjoywithme762000: ya
DEXTER: is He unable or not ?
enjoywithme762000: does not do it
DEXTER: i am talking about ability ,
DEXTER: not about reality
enjoywithme762000: u can treat this as -unable
DEXTER: now the one who created all this universe with accurate measures.. is unable to do what He wills ?is that logic ? we said we are gonna use our minds
enjoywithme762000: if god is able to do anyrhing then this world should run according to his will
enjoywithme762000: is that the will of god that there should be suffreing in rhe world
DEXTER: i have something for u to watch with me . ok ? so gimme good attentoin to this ok ?
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: good
DEXTER: now we are as humans, are free to do whatever we want .. and we hve a somplete free will over ourlives .
DEXTER: right ?
DEXTER: do we have a complete free will ?
enjoywithme762000: ya definitely
DEXTER: u beleive whatever u want and i do the same . and no one to say no.. that is absolutely true
DEXTER: now .. in this picture , we can see that God is not interferring anything . just leaving us the way we will
DEXTER: right or wrong ?
enjoywithme762000: but whatever be beleive must have some logic as we have some mind
DEXTER: exactly and we are gonna use this mind to find the truth about God ..
enjoywithme762000: ya
DEXTER: His pure truth .. i am happy that we agree to use our minds .
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: now tell me my dear friend , do we have will over everything in this Universe ?
enjoywithme762000: no
DEXTER: good answer .. that is true .
DEXTER: we still have no free will against many things . and death is a good example for it
enjoywithme762000: ya
enjoywithme762000: i agree to it
DEXTER: who moves the planets and gave the sun its power to light up our days ?
DEXTER: isn't He God ?
DEXTER: who grows the plants and creates whatever He wants? isn't He God?
DEXTER: some ppl come white and others are black . .
DEXTER: isn't He God who creates them the way He wants ?
DEXTER: ha ?
enjoywithme762000: no if there is good then and he is able to do somerhing first he will kill people like alkaida/terrorist
enjoywithme762000: why innocent people should die?
DEXTER: we shall check that later . lets keep up the way we are now
enjoywithme762000: at rhe will of god?
enjoywithme762000: why god does not change the mind of terrorist
enjoywithme762000: if has the real power to change he will never allow the wrong rhings in the world
enjoywithme762000: why he would want that his innocent people should be killed by devils
DEXTER: we said that we shall check on that later ,, shall we keep up the way we are ?
enjoywithme762000: if he has the power why doesnt he change all wromg people into good one
DEXTER: i defenitly have good answers for u later.
DEXTER: now i will repeat .
DEXTER: does God have still some power over many things in this Universe or not ?
enjoywithme762000: there is no god who controls this world--this is autonatic and runs on ones deed--one get result according ro his deed
enjoywithme762000: automaric
enjoywithme762000: to
DEXTER: but still though some rules controlling the Universe , right ?
enjoywithme762000: yes definitely
DEXTER: like Gravity and many other things .
enjoywithme762000: but that is not god
enjoywithme762000: dont name it god
DEXTER: and these rules are controlling this Universe and holding it from collasping , right or wrong
DEXTER: ?
DEXTER: ha ? right or wrong ?
enjoywithme762000: every particle in rhis world is independent but bonded due to its deed
DEXTER: u are excaping the answer . why ? we said we are gonna use our minds !
DEXTER: escaping **
enjoywithme762000: what is death ---it ia change of soul from one shape to another
DEXTER: my dear , u are jumping from one topic to another ..
DEXTER: i wanna concentrate with u on something
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: fine
DEXTER: now answer my Q .. there are still many rules that control the Universe and holding it from collasping ..
DEXTER: right or wrong ?
enjoywithme762000: ya and people name it god
DEXTER: forget about the name now .
DEXTER: we are watching together now
enjoywithme762000: ok
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: watching and using our minds. thats all
DEXTER: now .. every Rule in all this Universe , there must be something or someone who put this rule , and it is defenitely did not come from itself . because this possibility is ZERO .. right ?
enjoywithme762000: no
DEXTER: is there a possibility for it to come from itslef ?
DEXTER: without any outsider force ?
enjoywithme762000: ya some rules are self made
DEXTER: ok .. we are gonna concenrate on this point .
DEXTER: i wanna tell u something happened to me . and it is true.. I hope u believe me on this
enjoywithme762000: if somebody has made these rule then who made the one who made these rules
DEXTER: this thing happened to me as a watcher like u , and it happened infront of my eyes
DEXTER: shall we see what happened to me as a watcher?
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: good .
DEXTER: i live in a place where desert is the most part of my country ,
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and one day , i decided to walk in the desert alone ,, just by myself ..
DEXTER: i started watching and i used my mind in this watch ..
DEXTER: i wnet too far that no civilization can be seen .
DEXTER: not humans nothing .
enjoywithme762000: ok
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and i stood on a heap of sand looking around ..
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and i saw something very wonderful
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: no one ever believed me on this . but i believe it was true
DEXTER: there was some trees on the easten side of the horizon ,..
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and some rocks and moutains on the opposite side of the horizon
DEXTER: and sudennly ,,
DEXTER: some winds took off some trees and shaped from it wodden plates .. !!
DEXTER: i saw that infront of my eyes .. just by itself .
DEXTER: and some other winds took some rockes too in a shape of cubes!!
DEXTER: just like that .. so suddenlly . !!
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: the rockes and stones were in a fantastic shape of cubes like that were coming from a factory !
DEXTER: and the woods were in the shape of plates as if they are coming out of a factory !!
DEXTER: just like that !! all by itself .
DEXTER: and the most wonderful thing happened then!!
DEXTER: just listen!
enjoywithme762000: so what is wrong in it any matter change its form from time to time--some suddenly and sime slowly
DEXTER: then the wind took these wood plates just near me and some rocks in the shape of cubes also
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and some water mixed with soil and sudennly the winds started building a house out of these plates and rocks !!
DEXTER: imagine that !! a house is self built just infront of my eyes !! i hope u believe me
enjoywithme762000: ya
DEXTER: there was no one there to do that !! just the wnids !! and random movement .
DEXTER: i saw the house being built by no body .. just some random movement !!
DEXTER: stone by stone and plate by plate ..
enjoywithme762000: it can happen
DEXTER: till it was 3 floor building . !!
enjoywithme762000: ok
DEXTER: and suddenly , some leeves from the trees came to do the ceiling !!
DEXTER: trust me am telling the truth
DEXTER: i was still standing astonished
enjoywithme762000: tell finally what u want to say
DEXTER: and then .. decorations were made and some firnitures too
enjoywithme762000: such incident may happen
DEXTER: furnitures**
DEXTER: and after the wind stopped , i sent inside this building , and saw that it was a 3 floor building with 6 apparments !
DEXTER: with ladders and furnitures from the finest Quality
DEXTER: there was kitchen and stuff man needs to live in it !!
DEXTER: and believe me , I am still living in that house till today
DEXTER: my family and I moved there
DEXTER: we are six families living in the self-built house and it is stronger than the ones in the city
DEXTER: we bought nothing from the market !! because everything was just there !1
DEXTER: plates and spoons and everything . imagine !! even a TV was there just byitself . 26 inches !!
DEXTER: i hope u believe me , do u ?
enjoywithme762000: so what u must have done sonerhing good in ur past or in ur last birth which result came now
enjoywithme762000: good deeds always pays
DEXTER: is that to mean : u believe me ?
DEXTER:
DEXTER: we said we are gonna use our minds
enjoywithme762000: it can happen and may not also depends on ones deed/kaema
enjoywithme762000: karma
DEXTER: so i was telling the truth logically ..
enjoywithme762000: what one has done in past
DEXTER: see how u are changing the subject !!
DEXTER: am asking about this fact as a watcher .. not as a Hindu or christian or Muslim!
DEXTER: we are now watcher .. right ? using our mids only .
DEXTER: right?
DEXTER: minds**
enjoywithme762000: it can happen
DEXTER: it can happn logically ? and u are saying that we are still watchers !!! and we are still using our minds !!
enjoywithme762000: but i could not get what u want to convey
DEXTER: i was telling u the exact details !!!!
DEXTER: a TV was there also .. IMagine !!!!
DEXTER: no one made it ,. but by itself
DEXTER: now is that logically true or not ? do u believe honstly that I am telling the truth ?
enjoywithme762000: ya no body makes also --matter change its form
enjoywithme762000: stone can change to building shape
DEXTER: aha
enjoywithme762000: trees may take shape of wood plates
DEXTER: and infront of my eyes? ina two hour time ?
enjoywithme762000: what is wromg in it
DEXTER: what about building 3 floors ?
enjoywithme762000: it changes shape infront of my eyes also
DEXTER: what about the furnitures!! what about spoons and plates and the TV !
DEXTER: am I telling the truth to u as a watcher as we said ?
DEXTER: remember ,. we are using our minds now
DEXTER: is it logic ? can a small kid believe that ?
DEXTER: only insane ppl would believe what I say .. do u agree or not
enjoywithme762000: ya if he think like me
DEXTER: so u agree that this is logic !
DEXTER: a selfbuilt Tv and Furnitures and 3 floors building stronger than the ones in the cities
DEXTER: u agree to this thing using ur mind ?
DEXTER: forget about ur faith .. we sais we are watchers now . using our minds !
DEXTER: said**
DEXTER: are u agraid to say that it is not logic?
DEXTER: afraid**
DEXTER: ha ? tell me !
DEXTER: logic or not!
BUZZ!!!
DEXTER: are u running away from using ur mind!! ?
DEXTER: or u are weaker than admitting that u were wrong !
DEXTER: and u know what I mean

أنقل لكم تتمة للحوار الشيق الذي دار بيني و بين النصراني المذكور في بداية مشاركتي هذه .. لقد انتهى هذا الحوار اليوم بنهاية مفجعة بعد أن أثقلت عليه الضربات فكانت آخرها التي قسمت ظهره و انهت الحوار بخروجه صامتاً من المسنجر دونما تعليق واحد !!

و الآن أترككم مع تفاصي الحوار :

al diazgerrero: goodmorning

DEXTER: ohhh hhii .. i was away

DEXTER: am sorry

DEXTER: good morning to u

DEXTER: how are u ?

DEXTER: are u still there ?

al diazgerrero: God bless you dex

DEXTER: Thanks , and may God guide us all

DEXTER: so whats up ?

al diazgerrero: how are you today i don't have time right now to talk very much, i am in the middle of something, but i wanted to say hello,

DEXTER: ko i see. am fine thanks.. have u thought of our conversation last time?

al diazgerrero: yes, very much

DEXTER: and what do u think ? do I make some sense ?

al diazgerrero: i think, think that what is imporant is that you feel good and be happy with what you beleive

DEXTER: I still have so many things to say ,, we have just begun .. and am sure we will find something at the end . something very intersteing that might change ourlives forever and we find true salvation for our souls

DEXTER: so whenever u feel free , let me know . am here for another 5 hours

al diazgerrero: well i found Jesus, (he found me) and i feel greatful for that, and for the truth he has revealed to me

DEXTER: we shall check that later . it is a long talk in that topic .. and i prefer we keep up the same way to check the reality of this statement ..

al diazgerrero: i dont intend to convince you of what i beleive in, i just want you to know that we should accept each other just the way we are, even though sometimes we dont agree in everything, that doesn't mean we can't be friends

DEXTER: sure ..

al diazgerrero:

DEXTER: do we have sometime to check on something now ?

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: ok .. last time we talked about two important tthings .

DEXTER: one of them was Trinity .. and we found that neither it makes any sense nor we found any validation for this doctrine .

DEXTER: and that makes it a false one ..

DEXTER: do we agree on that ?

al diazgerrero: well, the doctrine of the 3 persons in one god is true, according to the 1letter of john

DEXTER: and what does this verse say ?

al diazgerrero: let me check ok, i am going to look in an on-line bible

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: are u talking about the three witnesses ?

al diazgerrero: let me see

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: is this the verse u are talking about : For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

al diazgerrero: yes and then after that it states those those three are one

DEXTER: u seem to be quite ignorant of your Bible !!! am sorry to say that but it is true ..

DEXTER: if u go and check this verse in all modern Bibles u will never find it

al diazgerrero: i knew you were going to say that hahahaha

DEXTER: why ? it is not there in the Revised Standard Version

DEXTER: u see !! u are unable to validate this doctrine !! and yet u believe it is true!

al diazgerrero: you know something

DEXTER: yeah

al diazgerrero: do you remember the passage where martha was busy while maria was at the feet of jesus listening to him

DEXTER: hmm where was that ?

al diazgerrero: what jesus says is that very few things are important

DEXTER: what did he say ?

al diazgerrero: that few things are important

DEXTER: ? am not getting ur point

DEXTER: u there ?

al diazgerrero: someone called me, exxcuse me. i am back

al diazgerrero: you should read the passage for yourself

al diazgerrero: these to women were the sisters of lazaro

al diazgerrero: the one that jesus brought back to life

DEXTER: where was that ? what book ? what verse ?

al diazgerrero: i don't remember right now the chapter or verse, but what it tells me

DEXTER: ok .. what does it say ?

al diazgerrero: is that for meanings of salvation you do not to beleive everything, and it is not necessary to have useless discussions

DEXTER: yeah yeah ,, that is in John's Gospel

al diazgerrero: *do not have to beleive everything

DEXTER: lemmi check this strange statement ,. Hold on !!

al diazgerrero: the only tru important thing is to listen to Him

al diazgerrero: ok?

al diazgerrero: i said that is what i understand in that message

al diazgerrero: my "own" comprehension

DEXTER: ok gimme time to check on it

al diazgerrero: go on

DEXTER: now i got the chapter .. which verse are u talkin about ?

DEXTER: is it in the same chatpter of bringing the dead man alive ?

al diazgerrero: when Jesus was in there house, one of the women prefered to do the housekeeping while the other decided to listen to Him

al diazgerrero: and besides that the woman that was cleaning the house was in a very bad mood

DEXTER: what verse is that ? could u please help me ? i can not find such a statement

al diazgerrero: let me check ok

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: one minute please

DEXTER: it is chapter 11 , John

DEXTER: there is no such a verse , right ?

al diazgerrero: not there, i did not say it was in the same chapter or book where the miracle was made

al diazgerrero: i am looking somwhere else

DEXTER: ok .. take ur time ..

DEXTER: but trust me Jesus never made such a statement telling others to have blind faith . rather he was always there in the middle of crowds reasoning the Jews and never asked for blind faith

al diazgerrero: i am not speaking of blind faith,

al diazgerrero: may i ask you something ?

DEXTER: yeah sure

al diazgerrero: in time of sorrow, what do you prefer, a word of wisdom or a word of love

DEXTER: am not getting the point

DEXTER: and what has this to do with that ?

al diazgerrero: that God is the truth, and also love

al diazgerrero: and where the spirit of God is there is also liberty

DEXTER: Exactly .. and se should not neglect that He is the truth besides being Love !

DEXTER: if He is the trueth , then shy should we adopt doctrines God never mentioend ?

al diazgerrero: but my friend...Love is the truth

DEXTER: if Love is the same as using our mind, then there was no need for the first commandment to be the way it is: to Love thee Lord with all thee HEART AND MIND !!!

DEXTER: This AND means that we have to use our minds too in this love .

DEXTER: and using this mind means that we should not accept anything anyone says !! unless it is validated by God !

al diazgerrero: yes but it also means that we need to learn

al diazgerrero: we learn with our mind

al diazgerrero: we can't do something we ignore

DEXTER: and what is the first source for this task of learning ? isn't it Gd's word ?

al diazgerrero: and learning is a process that lasts a liftime

DEXTER: While God never mentioned that He was 3 in 1 . why should we say that ?

DEXTER: Is God that disabled to state this very important statement ?

DEXTER: no!

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: then , Trinity , or three persons in one , are nothing but an addition the word of God !

al diazgerrero: let's think you are right

al diazgerrero: what next

al diazgerrero: what is your point

DEXTER: just like the three wintesses are added to the Bible after 10 centuries of Jesus departure, that means christianity is not as genuine as we think it is . and we have to look and search to realize the truth between the lines

DEXTER: i hope that u be patient with me my friend .

al diazgerrero: hey, i like you as a friend

DEXTER: and trust me , am not trying to unglorify Jesus .. no! because He said: who Loves me keeps my words

al diazgerrero: but i beleive in jesuschrist

DEXTER: and I am trying to keep Jesus's words

DEXTER: and I believe in Jesus Christ too and I wanna know what Jesus really said !

al diazgerrero: and i dont need your guidance

DEXTER: so do we agree that Three persons in one is not a valid doctrine in the Bible and it is just an addition to it ?

al diazgerrero: what he did or said is in the bible

DEXTER: u sound angry at me

al diazgerrero: i am not

al diazgerrero: i just don;t understand why something like beleiving in the love of God is the cause of so many steril discussions

DEXTER: I wanna love God .. and Jesus said : IF u love me , u keep my words .. and that means: if we do not keep his words , then we do not love him . .do u undertand the seriousity of this statement ?

al diazgerrero: if you are convinced of what you beleive that should be enough for you, i am convinced about what i read in the bible

al diazgerrero: keeping his words means obedience

al diazgerrero: to obey his words

DEXTER: that is a very important statement u made : i am convinced about what i read in the bible .. and where did u find the three persons in the Bible ?

al diazgerrero: and i don't think you are ignorant

DEXTER: not ignorant at all . hopefully

al diazgerrero: where i told you before, at the beginning of our chat

DEXTER: so tell me .. do we agree or do we not , that this doctrine is not genuine and was added to christianity later on

DEXTER: because either we prrove it , or we ignore it

al diazgerrero: many things were added later

al diazgerrero: many

DEXTER: exactly!!!! many !! and we are gonna find out the true religion of Jesus Christ ..

DEXTER: the truth about his message !

al diazgerrero: many books were written, and it was necesary to choose from the books that were inspired by god and those that were not

al diazgerrero: the letter of santiago says

al diazgerrero: that the true religion is to visit widows and feed and dress the orphans

DEXTER: and that can never be done except we see what he did or say .. only then we know what Jesus really wanted us to believe

DEXTER: let me ask u something .. and that is very logic ..

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: if I want to know what George Bush said , where do I search in the first place ?

DEXTER: do I search in the writings of someone esle ?

DEXTER: no! the first place to search is the writings of George Bush himslef

al diazgerrero: it is diffrent becuase Jesuschrist never wrote anything

al diazgerrero: by himself

DEXTER: yeah i agree ..

DEXTER: and that is my point! He never wrote anything, but ppl wrote down what he said .

al diazgerrero: and very little

al diazgerrero: becuase he was with them for three long years

DEXTER: so if Jesus said that God is one and never mentioned that God is three persons in one .. then someone comes and says that Jesus ment to say this statement , but he was unable to say it . would we believe that?

al diazgerrero: and i don't think that in three years Jesus did only what is written but many more things

DEXTER: the first source to look is the sayings and deed of Jesus Christ .

DEXTER: if it is not there , then it should not be anywhere else !! is that right or what ?

al diazgerrero: what jesus said, when an apostole asked him to show them the Father, he aswered clearly: I have been all this time with you, and you still don't recognize me?

DEXTER: so u want to move to discuss scriptures ?

DEXTER: just to concentrate on something ..

DEXTER: shall we move to this step ? have we hand enough for the first step ?

al diazgerrero: i am only chatting with you

al diazgerrero: you tell me i tell you

DEXTER: yeah .. I am too and wanna seek the truth with you if u don't mind

DEXTER: u said that many things were added to the message of Jesus , and we wanna check it out together . what do u say ?

DEXTER: in that way we know what we loved our Lord with both our hearts and minds

al diazgerrero: i never said that words were adde

al diazgerrero: added

DEXTER: and if i am disturbing u , them i am sorry .. we can stop whenever u want .

al diazgerrero: books -new- books were written

DEXTER: and statements also were added to these books .. just like the three wintesses were added to validate Trinity

al diazgerrero: after the old testament 27 new books were added those are the new testament

DEXTER: so tell me . are u with me in this Journey of truth seeking ?

DEXTER: u may wuite whenever u feel am wrong

al diazgerrero: everyday

DEXTER: quite**

al diazgerrero: i seek the truth through the word of god

DEXTER: or u can reason me . the way I shall reason u .. just like theLord said in Isaiah

al diazgerrero: and the word -bible-

DEXTER: we shall seek the truth in the Bible too . not outside resources

al diazgerrero: never contradicts itself

DEXTER: thats why , whatever outside the Bible should not be taken

DEXTER: do we agree on this ?

al diazgerrero: i never read anything else than the bible when i am seeking the truth

DEXTER: u have made a very clear and inportant statement : the Word of God never contradict itself !! that is one of the most importnat things we shall depend on in our seeking the truth in the Bible . do we agree ?

DEXTER: do we agree or not ?

al diazgerrero: i think that you are still seeking while i already found

DEXTER: does that mean u do not wanna reason me ? am I talking nonesense ?

al diazgerrero: no, i am hera to listen to you

DEXTER: thank you a lot my friend

al diazgerrero: *hear

al diazgerrero: here to listen

DEXTER: so. as we have just said , Three persons in One is not in the Bible . therefore , this is not a genuine doctrine that Jesus preached ..

al diazgerrero: did you know that God is Supernatural

al diazgerrero: what Jesus preached was love

al diazgerrero: love

DEXTER: that is the first step in our research

DEXTER: we shall check on this statement in our chat

DEXTER: so now . tell me .. did Jesus preach the original sin ?

al diazgerrero: wait please

DEXTER: ok tyt

al diazgerrero: something obvious...

al diazgerrero: do you believe in Jesus

al diazgerrero: i ask

DEXTER: just in the rate I believe in God . if I do not believe in Jesus , then I do not believe in God

DEXTER: I believe in Jesus, Moses , Abraham , Noah and all other prophets of God whom He sent

DEXTER: I deny none !

al diazgerrero: have you ever confessed it with your mouthi a prayer

DEXTER: more than 5 times aday

al diazgerrero: *in a prayer

DEXTER: in all sitiuations

al diazgerrero: read the letter to the romans in chapter ten

DEXTER: here now I tell u : I beleive in God , Jesus , Moses, Abraham and other prophets God sent

al diazgerrero: verse 9

DEXTER: lemmi check it

DEXTER: this is the saying of Paul .. not Jesus !

DEXTER: i wanna know what Jesus said ..

DEXTER: what Jesus preached

DEXTER: in his whole missionary life he never mentioned this statement

DEXTER: in all his missionary life he never asked ppl to stick to other things rather to keep the commandments .. whenever Jesus was asked for the path for salvaion , he said : keep the commandments .

al diazgerrero: one moment

DEXTER: and Jesus himself was the best example for keeping the commandment that he kept for 33 years and never broke any .. and never ever mentioned that he was God , or asked ppl to worship him , or asked ppl to believe in his atonement on the cross ..

DEXTER: he never said that we should throw the commandments away that he kept his whole life through 33 years .. and when someone asked him for PERFECTION , what did he say??? He say : Sell your belongings !! see! e never mentioned any belief in his atonement on the cross . he never mentioned that we only have to believe him on corss atoning for our sins and we get the true salvation .. but asked us to keep the commandments .. only that ! keep the comadments !! not to believe in his atonement on the cross

al diazgerrero: 1 min pls*

DEXTER: take ur time

al diazgerrero: 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

al diazgerrero: 2 timothy3:16

al diazgerrero: i was looking for this scripture to give it to you

DEXTER: even if someone contradicted Jesus Christ ?

al diazgerrero: it clearly states: All scripture is inspired by God

al diazgerrero: i am not saying it, it is written

al diazgerrero: even if sometimes we don't agree, it certainly is the word of The lord

al diazgerrero: Lord

DEXTER: who is the Christ ? Jesus or Paul? if we are to follow Jesus , then I should know what he said . only then we can allow ourselves to see others saying and writing thousands of pages on it .. but if Jesus did not say that , then how can we attribute it to Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: paul was a minister of Jesus

al diazgerrero: a servant can not contradict the one he serves, friend

DEXTER: yes this verse says : all scriptures . and this verse was written in the first centuary when the new testiment was not yet identified . the Gospel of Baranab was one of the scriptures and yet it is not considered as wor dof God

DEXTER: word*

DEXTER: the new testiment was chosen in the thrid century and not in the time of this verse .

al diazgerrero: yes, only 27 books were considered as authentic

al diazgerrero: yes, i am aware of all this, i have been through this topic to many times, i know exactly how you feel

DEXTER: see considered as authentic .. who has the right to consider someting the word of God ?

al diazgerrero: but guess what there is absolutely no problem

DEXTER: did the four Gospels say that they are inspired ?

DEXTER: no !! it was said so after 3 centuries from Jesus' departure!! then how can we check what Paul ment by this verse, if at that time , there was not yet any book considered authentic!

DEXTER: do u know what i mean ?

al diazgerrero: that's the great thing about the bible

DEXTER: the GREAT thing about the BIBLE? which Bible are u talking about ? KJV ? RSV ? the Bible of the Catholics or the Protostants ?

DEXTER: and u know what I mean

DEXTER: each version is not the same as another ..

al diazgerrero: wich one do you read ?

DEXTER: the first thing to know : which one is the word of God TRUELY ?

DEXTER: it does not matter which one do I read ! but I wanna know which is Word of God !

al diazgerrero: well you can tell if the tree is good by its fruit

DEXTER: exactly !!!

DEXTER: and what was the friut of Paul ? he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep in all his 33 years on thi splanet !

al diazgerrero: why do you say that

DEXTER: i will tell u why :

al diazgerrero: yes?

DEXTER: give me a second to get the exact word in english

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: Jesus himself observed every single aspect of the religion of Moses steadfastly and uncompromisingly. He fasted as Moses fasted, he worshipped as Moses worshipped, he refrained from tasting a single pig, he believed in circumcision and himself was circumcised, he observed the Sabbath, never having violated it. He did this up until the crucifixion. It was only after the crucifixion, according to the Bible, that he allegedly returned in “visions” to Paul in order to nullify the law he had spent his whole life upholding. The Bible actually bears witness that during his lifetime, Jesus commanded his followers to follow the religion of Moses and threatened severe retribution from God for all of his followers who would forsake a single aspect of this religion UNTIL THE END OF TIME!

DEXTER: while Paul never did what Jesus asked us to do !! he Threw all this awya !

DEXTER: away*

al diazgerrero: i think you are right

al diazgerrero: but

al diazgerrero: you need to understand something carefully

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: there where two "laws"

DEXTER: ???

al diazgerrero: the ritual

al diazgerrero: law

al diazgerrero: all of the instructions of how to do a correct sacrifice of the sheep

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: and the moral law

al diazgerrero: this Law

al diazgerrero: the moral law

al diazgerrero: are the 10 commandments

DEXTER: yeah .

al diazgerrero: these 10 will never pass

al diazgerrero: never

DEXTER: ?

al diazgerrero: but

DEXTER: what do u mean ?

DEXTER: u mean pass away . i got u

al diazgerrero: the other law was perfactly accomplished by Jesus , and so it was concluded because he consumed it as he himself was the perfect sacrifice

DEXTER: but what ? i will tell u : Paul ordered us to let them pass away ,, that is the truth

al diazgerrero: because all the ceremony and ritual was justa a simbol and figure of what it was originally written

DEXTER: while JEsus spent his whole life keeping the commandments , Paul comes and tells us that they were a curse on us !! a CURSE ??

DEXTER: Jesus never ate Pig , while Paul asked us to do so !!

DEXTER: Jesus sticked to the 10 commandments while Paul threw them away !! he asked nothing but faith !!

DEXTER: that is the fruit of Paul

DEXTER: and what makes us follow what Paul says ?

DEXTER: he did not even saw Jesus .

DEXTER: he was not there when Jesus preached !

al diazgerrero: he was speaking of the curse of the law of sin

DEXTER: my dear friend, Paul made Jesus as a curse !! imagine Jesus is a curse ! and all what Jesus kept in his whole life was a curse !! while jesus asked us to follow the commandments and keep them till the end of time and mentioned nothin about his atonement , Paul then comes and tells us that what Jesus did threw his whole life was invain !!

al diazgerrero: and there is this fact that paul was meant to be an apostole of the people that were not born jeew

al diazgerrero: *jew

DEXTER: why ? did Jesus ever preached other than the Jews ?

al diazgerrero: because the jew were meant to be the nation of God, but as they rejected jesus, god chose us, to become his new nation

DEXTER: Jesus said that he was sent only for the lost sheeps of Israel !

al diazgerrero: it is written that the good judge starts in his house

DEXTER: and Jesus always made sure that his message does not go out for others than the Jews ..

al diazgerrero: he started has you say

al diazgerrero: but what about when he preached to the woman of samaria

al diazgerrero: and the roman centurion

DEXTER: what did he tell that woman ? he told her that she is like a dog to him !! only because she was not jewish

DEXTER: and because she instisted he did what he wanted . and he did not preached her , but performed a miricle for her

al diazgerrero: the woman from canaan

al diazgerrero: that was the woman from canaan

DEXTER: thats all .. he never told her , believe in me on the cross atoning for ur sins!

al diazgerrero: i mean the woman that was taking out water

DEXTER: hmm .. lemmi check this

DEXTER: do u remember what verse is that ? or what chapter ?

al diazgerrero: sorry friend i am not good at numbers

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: i will try from now on to write those down for you

DEXTER: so tell me now . if Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross , and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times , and he never mentioned any origianl sin , and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God , and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us , rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime .. after all of tha t, does anyone has the right to say these things and atribute them to Jesus without any proof from his side ?

DEXTER: If Paul never saw JEsus face , and never knew him , how can he tell that the one who saw was really Jesus ? not the Satan in some vision to astray ppl from the true message of Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: i don't understand it's a long question...

DEXTER: i will say that again

DEXTER: Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross .. and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times .. and he never mentioned any origianl sin ...and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God .. and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us.. rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime..

DEXTER: after all of that !! Does anyone have the rigth to say things that Jesus never said or preached and attribute them to Jesus without any proof ?

DEXTER: IF we love Jesus then we follow him .. not what others falsely say !

al diazgerrero: i beleieve that people like paul or someother author, did not write something different, what they did was explain a little more the teachings of Jesus christ

al diazgerrero: pay attention

al diazgerrero: did you know that once paul argued with peter ?

DEXTER: not really . enlighten me please

al diazgerrero: because, the instructions of jesus were clear: beleive in Him, receive him in there heart, baptize, and regret...

al diazgerrero: am i being clear?

DEXTER: yeah sure

al diazgerrero: but the apostoles, and jesus himself was jew

DEXTER: u mean from all this , that Paul was clearifying for us the true sayings and deeds of JEsus

DEXTER: isn't that right ?

al diazgerrero: and peter made the mistake of telling the new converted that they had to practice the circumcission

DEXTER: mistake ???? Jesus practiced that for God's sake!! and he was sinless .. wasn't he!!

al diazgerrero: and some other ritual practices of the old jew religion

al diazgerrero: yes jesus praticed it

DEXTER: then do not tell me it was a mistake!

al diazgerrero: because he was before all things obedient

al diazgerrero: peter's mistake yes

DEXTER: or Jesus then made a mistake . and I think u do not agree!!

al diazgerrero: becuase for instance, i am not jew

DEXTER: u are a christian , see: Christ--ian .. and that is supposed to mean that u follow the Chrsit and not Paulian : Paul--ian !! u know what I mean?

DEXTER: id JEsus practiced that , then that means we have to do that since he never said that we do not have to do i t!

al diazgerrero: you know what my problem is right now, that my english in christian matter is very poor, and it is difficult for me to explain to you what i have learned in spanish

DEXTER: i can help u in that

al diazgerrero: but i agree with you in the way that you feel

DEXTER: so tell me .what prrof did Paul give to validate the true sayings of his ?

DEXTER: proof**

al diazgerrero: john says that any spirit that confesses jesuschrist as the lord is saying the truth

al diazgerrero: that recognizes that He came in flesh

al diazgerrero: paul did not see him with his flesh eyes

DEXTER: my darling , that is not enough simplly because :

al diazgerrero: but by faith, because the things we can not see are eternal

DEXTER: Islam confessed that Jesus was the Christ , and confessed that Jesus was born miriculously , confessed that he was the Messiah ,,. in that concept we must all follow what Islam says !

al diazgerrero: i think that what paul wrote were some simple instructions for the churches he was

al diazgerrero: opening

DEXTER: so is that enough for us to believe ?

al diazgerrero: the islam is antichristian, becuase it denyes that christ is god

al diazgerrero: they think of jesus as a mesiah

DEXTER: yes .. and we shall talk about this matter later on

DEXTER: the Devinety of Jesus is a matter to be checked later on

al diazgerrero: the truth is that paul was not even born inside the jew nation

DEXTER: no my dear !! he was a jewish !

al diazgerrero: he was born somewhere in italy called tarso

DEXTER: and he tortured the believers in Jesus for a long while

al diazgerrero: that is why when he was killed he died as a roman citizen, decapitated

DEXTER: and that was in the land of the jews

al diazgerrero: not crucified like peter

al diazgerrero: the romans crucified other nations but not there own people

al diazgerrero: the cruciphiction was basically a roman torture

al diazgerrero: but paul was a doctor in the law

al diazgerrero: in the law i was telling you about

DEXTER: my dear !! Paul was a Jewish ,, thats what he said !! do u disbelieve him ?

al diazgerrero: they did not like jesus because

al diazgerrero: people called him rabi

al diazgerrero: and jesus was to young to be a rabi

al diazgerrero: thast why they asked him

al diazgerrero: with what authority was he doing what he did

al diazgerrero: *that;s

al diazgerrero: that's

al diazgerrero: 1 min pls*

DEXTER: yeah ,, and i ask u the same thing! in what authority he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep and preach through whole his lifetime ! ?

DEXTER: According to the Bible, Jesus spent his whole life in strict adherence to the commandments of the law of Moses . He departed leaving his followers with the following words:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 5:17-19

so in what authority does Paul come and break the commandments right and left ?

al diazgerrero: as i said, he never knocked down anything,

al diazgerrero: as i said

al diazgerrero: the Law, are the ten commandments

al diazgerrero: but when jesus was killed in the cross

al diazgerrero: he concluded...

al diazgerrero: or how can i say this

DEXTER: me dear ! he ate pork , he did not practice what Jesus practiced !!

DEXTER: He CONCLUDED ??? and not AUTHORIZED ?

al diazgerrero: paul did not eat pork, but he said that god's kingdom was not of food or water but of spirit

DEXTER: Only Jesus is authorized to break what he says

al diazgerrero: he did not break

DEXTER: no dear,, Paul said :“If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.”

1 Corinthians 10:27

al diazgerrero: jesus did not break, he obe

al diazgerrero: *obeyed

al diazgerrero: see the context

al diazgerrero: he was explainning of

al diazgerrero: all the produce that was selled in that time, some of the meat was dedicated to idols

DEXTER: tell me my friend , is not not allowed in christianity to eat Pork ?

DEXTER: is it allowed or noT?

al diazgerrero: me myself i don't eat pork

DEXTER: Christian churches order their followers to eat everything even Prok !! while Jesus Never did that !! but he was keeping the Law of moses in which not allowing to eat Pork

al diazgerrero: yes, we as humans have sinned in many awful ways, that's precisely why Jesus came to earth in the first place

DEXTER: so now as a conclusion , do we agree that Jesus did not say a word of most of the doctrines that Paul preached ?

al diazgerrero: christ did not face the sittuations that paul did personaly

DEXTER: what do u mean ?

al diazgerrero: i beleive that paul obeyed christ as christ obeyed the father

DEXTER: how do u say that when Paul attributed things that Jesus never said or did or preached ? how do u say that when Paul did things Jesus asked us to undo , and broke things Jesus always kept ?

DEXTER: Paul asked for faith in Jesus Christ on the cross atoning for our sins, while Jesus never said that!! not even while he was on the Cross !!

al diazgerrero: paul obeyed so much, that it is written that he went to the temple to purify himself...

al diazgerrero: as the -law- said so

DEXTER: my friend !! U said Paul obeyed Jesus , while Jesus said :. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..... and Paul never kept the commandment .

al diazgerrero: paul basically, preached about the mercy of christ

DEXTER: see what Jesus said !! TILL HEAVEN AND EARTHPASS !! and did they PASS yet ?

al diazgerrero: till all be fulfilled.

al diazgerrero: *till all be fulfilled.

DEXTER: tell me .. did they pass yet? no! at least not over me

al diazgerrero: christ fulfilled that part when he died in the cross

al diazgerrero: you see

DEXTER: my friend ,, the verse says: TILL HEAVEN AND EARTHPASS and they did not pass when Jesus died on the cross

al diazgerrero: thats the error that our friends the catholics have

al diazgerrero: they think they sacrifice jesuschrist everyday in mass

al diazgerrero: when that is unnecesary

DEXTER: and see what he says also :Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.. HE SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST ,, now tell me . did Paul preach the same as Jesus did ?

al diazgerrero: because his sacifice whas perfect and definitive

DEXTER: so either we preach as Jesus did , orelse we shall be called the LEAST in the Kingdom of God

al diazgerrero: when you go inside jesus, you become an inheretor of the new pact

DEXTER: and Jesus preache the Law of Moses .. while Paul destoryed the Law and considered it as a curse

al diazgerrero: the pact of the blood of jesus christ

DEXTER: my darling . where does Jesus say these things ?? !! I am wondering!

al diazgerrero: in the last supper

DEXTER: Where did he say that he shall atone for our sins ?

al diazgerrero: this is my blood the blood of the new pact

DEXTER: He never said that in the last supper .

al diazgerrero: and in fact

DEXTER: he never said that he shall atone us by his death

al diazgerrero: in the old testament

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: it is written that if a man did not fulfill the law he would be cursed

DEXTER: aha , and Jesus KEPT THE LAW OF MOSES !!

al diazgerrero: what does "atone" mean

DEXTER: atone mean that some pays the penelty for other's sins

al diazgerrero: of course jesus is/was perfect

al diazgerrero: isaih 53 speaks of this matter

DEXTER: i agree that Jesus was sinless

DEXTER: but , he did not say that he shall atone us . u know what I mean ?

DEXTER: in what authority does Paul says that ?

al diazgerrero: says what ?

al diazgerrero: do you agree that when somebody makes a crime, it has to be payed for there is a punishment

DEXTER: Paul contradicted Jesus' whole life and whole preaching and contradicted the whole Law of Moses .. because God said in the Old Testiment :

DEXTER: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin”

Deuteronomy 24:16.

and “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son”

Ezekiel 18:20

al diazgerrero: well john 3:16 says

al diazgerrero: that god loves us so, that he gave his son instead of us

al diazgerrero: because like in a ball game, when a player makes a mistake the hole team loses, the same way when adam sinned the hole humanity fell

DEXTER: what about the above verses ? was it a lie that we do not hold the penelty of other ppl's sin ?

al diazgerrero: that means you are responsible of your own acts

DEXTER: and who said that? it was Paul only !!! Jesus never did nor anyone in the whole old testiment

al diazgerrero: did what ?

DEXTER: did say that we are sinners and we inherit the original sin

DEXTER: each one is responsible for his own sinns

DEXTER: and that is the ultimate fair . and God is the Most Fair .

DEXTER: and we have talked about that in our previous conversation

al diazgerrero: he did not have to, because all of the sacrifices that were daily executed in the temple had exactly that intenttion to redem

al diazgerrero: they were called sacrifices of peace, wich means, they mankind or at least that nation was not at peace with the Lord

DEXTER: how do u say that ? HE DID NOT HAVE TO ??? how then can we know that !!?

DEXTER: Jesus was very sure that he is understandable to his followers and was preaching in the Temple for that reason

al diazgerrero: i think christ came to teach what we did not knew not what we already know

DEXTER: he would not leave us like that without telling is the true meaning of his message

al diazgerrero: his message is beleive in his salvation, because he came to rescue what was lost

DEXTER: and what was his salvation ? He said :“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"

al diazgerrero: yes, right, one of the purposses of that law was to save,

DEXTER: he did not say that his salvation was to believe in his untimate sacrifice , while Paul said that ,, Not JESUS

al diazgerrero: but it proved to fail

al diazgerrero: becuase it was necesary a perfect sacrifice

al diazgerrero: a definitev one

DEXTER: who proved that ? PAUL ??? Did God give us misguiding LAWS ?? how can u say that !

DEXTER: was God that Ignorant that He does not know what fits us and what does not 1 ?

al diazgerrero: the law was that every house father had to bring to the temple a perfect male sheep, one year old

al diazgerrero: and it also had to be the first born

al diazgerrero: that innocent animal had to die, in order that the

al diazgerrero: pay of sin was not executed

al diazgerrero: because sin is washed away with blood

DEXTER: yeah ,, I know about that law .. but u are saying that it was misleading , though it was from God .. and God is not {the author} of confusion

al diazgerrero: only blood washes away sin

al diazgerrero: it was not misleading, men are dileading

al diazgerrero: disleading

DEXTER: then it is not about the Law . but MEN ..

al diazgerrero: there couldn't be a law with out men

DEXTER: yeah ..but tell me .. was it because the Law was proven misleading, or becuase ppl are proven to be misleading ?

al diazgerrero: ppl are sinners,

DEXTER: yes we are all sinners.. i agree to that .. but are we all misleading?

al diazgerrero: remember that this old ritual law was given to the ppl, right after they left egipt

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and before that, in egipt, god commanded to mark the houses with blood

al diazgerrero: so the angel of death wouldn't touch the ppl

DEXTER: so ?

al diazgerrero: so?

al diazgerrero: you know that

al diazgerrero: for example

al diazgerrero: let me say this ok

al diazgerrero: you know little children, play with small figures of cars, animals, boats etc.

DEXTER: do u think that such a crutial thing (atonement and salvation) is unnecessary to be clearly clarified by Jesus ? but to be left to us to conclude and break what Jesus Kept through all his lifetime ?

al diazgerrero: as i said they are figures, they are not real

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: they are figures that represent

al diazgerrero: the real thing

al diazgerrero: yeah, well

al diazgerrero: those first figures

al diazgerrero: the blood

al diazgerrero: the sheep

al diazgerrero: the bread

al diazgerrero: the flesh

al diazgerrero: they were all figures that represented the real thing,

al diazgerrero: that is jesuschrist

al diazgerrero: that is why jesus fullfiled that law

DEXTER: u mean that was all as a conclusion . and nothing is really clear or stated by Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: jesus, stated

DEXTER: what ?

al diazgerrero: i am the truth

al diazgerrero: i am life

al diazgerrero: i am the way

al diazgerrero: not that he was saying the truth, but that He is the truth

DEXTER: I believe that he was the truth .. i agree ,,. and in that meaning , there is no need for another truth to be said after what he says ! that is a very important statement u have just made!!

al diazgerrero: he is the real thing

al diazgerrero: he is the fulfillness of everything that was written before or after

DEXTER: he is the life , and he is the way .. that is right , what was he doing through 33 years of his life ? he was keeping the commandments to give us an example of that for us to follow

al diazgerrero: yes, his purposse, the purposse of god was to become a man and demonstrate that it is possible to obey the perfect will of god, that is the ten commandments

DEXTER: he is the life , meaning that he was living the perfect life , and if we wanna do that , we have to live the way he did by keeping the commandments.. and he is the way , meaning the way for salvation .. and what did he ask us to do ? to keep the commandments ,, and if we wanna get PERFECTION we only have to sell our belongings.. that is the meaning of the verse : I am the truth (no truth after me) and the way (the way I have lived and kept the commandment) and life ( the best life we can get was through keeping th ecommandment that Jesus Kept)

al diazgerrero: i think those verses don;t need interpretation

al diazgerrero: when he sais i am life

al diazgerrero: it means exactly that

al diazgerrero: he is life

al diazgerrero: that is why of the resurrection

al diazgerrero: it is impossible to kill life

DEXTER: yeah ,, that is right . he is life .. and what is that supposed to mean ?

al diazgerrero: that was the devils mistake,

al diazgerrero: how can anybody kill life without dying also ?

DEXTER: ?

DEXTER: are u telling me that it was the devils mstake to kill Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: if the devil knew he was precisely going to be defeated in the cross, he would of never cruciphied jesus

DEXTER: so Jesus knew that He was going to die on the cross ?

al diazgerrero: always since the begining of time

al diazgerrero: that my friend is the perfect plan of a perfect god

DEXTER: then tell me my friend ,

DEXTER: why did Jesus pray in his last night , and why did he ask his followers to sel their belongings and buy swords ? and why all that fear and sadness if he knew that he was going to die and be resurructed again ? why did he pray to the Father to let this cup pass from him ?

al diazgerrero: jesus never asked ppl to sell there belongings in order to buy swords

DEXTER: and if that was the real plan , then the last attempt made to arrest him and crucify him was not the first one actually , but many attempts were made to arrest him and kill him .. and he always escaped .. why does he have to wait ?

al diazgerrero: the fear and sadness is natural of a man who is aware that he is going to die

DEXTER: yes he did my dear !! that was in LUKE . wanna read the whole verse ? i can get it for u

al diazgerrero: because he planned his own death

al diazgerrero: remember what was celebrated when he died , or was about to die ?

DEXTER: ha ?

al diazgerrero: the great jew celebration

DEXTER: the feast ?

al diazgerrero: in memory of there liberation from

al diazgerrero: egipt

DEXTER: u mean the feast ?

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: are u sure about that ?

al diazgerrero: of course my frined

DEXTER: this is a very important timing !! are u sure ?

al diazgerrero: that is so wonderful

al diazgerrero: that is why he rested on

al diazgerrero: Saturday

al diazgerrero: and the resurrection took place

al diazgerrero: the next day

DEXTER: yes so WONDERFUL!! thanks a lot my friend , ,that makes sense !! BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DEXTER: did u know that the three Gospels MATHEW < MARK AND LUKE said that crucifiction was after the feast while John said that it was before ?????????? how can u explain that ?

DEXTER: who is telling lies and who is telling the truth ? which is the true word of God ?

DEXTER: John ? or the three other Gospels ?

DEXTER: or u never knew that ! OMG do not tell me u never knew!

DEXTER: u are supposed to be a christian !

DEXTER: and crucificiton is the basic doctrine u adopted !

DEXTER: according to Paul and not to Jesus Christ!!

DEXTER: ha ? the word of God is contradictory now !!

DEXTER: there is no explanation for that for Jesus was crucified just once!

DEXTER: John says that it was before the feast and the three others said that it was after ,, both are considered to be authentic . but authentic by whom ? God ? NO !! the church .. !! the church that added the three witnesses in the Bible to Validate a doctrine that was never there !!

DEXTER: u know what I mean now ? u know what I mean by saying we have to look for the truth?

DEXTER: do u know what I mean that we have to know what Jesus really said ?

DEXTER: I hope u understand me now

DEXTER: there is some truth in the Bible . but it is not to be taken as it is .. contradicions of that kind is all over the Bible .. we have check to know what is real and what is false . and no one will do that for us .. we have to look ourselves . thats why i share with u this seeking of truth

al diazgerrero has signed out. (18/08/142608:43م)

جزاك الله خيراً أخي الفارقليط على هذا المجهودة وسعيك لهداية من ضل عن الصراط المستقيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

أسجل مرورى وتحياتى وإعجابى لأخانا دكستر

بارك الله فيك يا اخانا الكريم

السلام عليكم

أحيرا .. الفارقليط يطلعنا على مباحثاته السرية من النصارى

كنت اعلم انك تعلمت كثيرا من الكتب التى تقوم بترحمتها - فى الواقع ما فعلته كل خير عمل ليضعك على الطريق الصحيح لمحاورة النصارى

اولا : تابعت حوراتك كلها بمتعه كبيرة

وصعب على ّ اللادينى الغريب الفكر الذى يظن ان كل شىء مخلوق لوحده!! - ده تايه خالص .. ولكى تكمل معه يجب ان يكون لديكم ارضية مشتركه للنقاش - اصلا مفيش عنده اى حاجة - اى مخه بلاااااطه على راى اخى - انت وظيفتك فى هذه المرحله ان تجعله يثقف نفسه فى كيف بدأ الخلق - وبعدها تكمل - اى اعطيه روابط ليخلق فكرة او اطار يكون مدخلكم للنقاش

اما النصرانى - فالحوار معه جيد ولو انه لا يعرف كثبرا عن انجيله مثلم انت
اعجبتنى طريقتك و جذبه الى مسار الحوار الرئيسى كلما شط عن لب الوضوع - قدرتك على تتبع النقاط للنهاية وعدم السماح له بتشتيك ... ممتاز .. واهنئك :p012:

استنفاذ كل النقاط - حتى لا يبقى حولها مجال للنقاش شىء رائع ويصل بك الى نتيجة .. ان شاء الله تثمر جهودك ويهدى الله بك

استمر فى صقل قدرتك على ادارة الحوار وعدم السماح بالتشتت لانها مجدية

واهنئك على صبرك وطريقتك المحترمة فى عدم التقليل من شأن الآخرين الجادين اثناء الحوار

ارتقب نتيجة الحوار مع النصرانى وأدعو : - اللهم اجعل لأخى الفارقليط فتحا قريبا

اخيرا ما رايك تنقلها على المنتدى الأنجليزى؟

اجمل تحياتى وكل عام وانت والعائلة والفارقليط الجونيور بخير

جزاك الله خيرا ونفع بك اخى الفارقليط السينيور

أنقل لكم ما جرى من حوار مع النصراني السابق ، و أعترف أنه من أفضل المحاورين الذين لقيتهم في حياتي .. أسأل الله له الهداية قريباً ..اللهم استجب..آمين

DEXTER:

DEXTER: just wanna say hi and check on u I hope u are doing fine

al diazgerrero: good morning, god bless you dexter

DEXTER: Good morning to u my friend .. and May God Bless our effort to seek the truth and Guide us to nothing but the truth .. Amen

al diazgerrero:

al diazgerrero: i hope you have a nice day today

DEXTER: u too . have a nice day today and ever after

al diazgerrero: amen

DEXTER: so tell me. have u thught of what we have said ?

al diazgerrero: at the moment yes

DEXTER: I am wondering if I am bothering u with this . i hope not

DEXTER: but these are things can not be shared with every christian ,, only who know their christianity only

al diazgerrero: no, you do not bother, i just wonder that if you have not realized yet, that when you find jesus, you have found the truth

DEXTER: I am looking for him pure and he is , no masks .. just his true face

DEXTER: thats what I am looking for

DEXTER: While Pagans and others have tampered with Jesus face by putting mask over mask inorder to compromise their thoughts with the true message of Jesus and vise versa, till it was hard to know what Jesus really said and what really he is .. and stuff like that

DEXTER: we have seen how three gospels have contradicted the fourth (John) in the timing of Crusiciftion .

al diazgerrero: in some way you are right

DEXTER: while all modern christianity was based upon the crucifiction , we see that they did not really know the timing of it .

DEXTER: was it before the feast or after ? who told a lie and who told the truth ? Is there another truth that was not in the Bible ? and stuff like that

al diazgerrero: one cannot research the bible the way we do with any other topic

DEXTER: am not getting the point

DEXTER: are u saying that we are doing just great , or we are mistaken with this research ?

al diazgerrero: well, you know that one basic rule to understand the bible, is first of all to ask the Holy Spirit to unveal the word

al diazgerrero: the second and also very important is to read every passage along with the context

DEXTER: my darling , we have not yet seen who the true God is , for Trinity is not in the Bible as we have seen ..

DEXTER: exactly .. within the context

DEXTER: and I have two topics now .

al diazgerrero: well, according to the teachings of jesus, he specificly said he would send the spirit of truth, that would let us understand everything

DEXTER: and they are included in the statement: within the context

DEXTER: I would ask no one but God - whoever God is - to guide us to His truth ..

DEXTER: so tell me . are u ready today ?

al diazgerrero: i am, but lets take it easy ok, i am in my job, and i have things to attend, and as i will be attending you i also have to attend my job, if that is ok with you, we can start

DEXTER: SURE . do not forget that I am attending work as well .. so we shall take it easy ,, just as u said .

DEXTER: I have two topics , each one is more important than the other .

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: the first one is : Devinity of Jesus .. or : Is Jesus God ? that is the first one .

DEXTER: and another topic:

DEXTER: studying the quoting of Mathew from the old Testiment

DEXTER: or we may start studying the four gospels as well in a comparison attitude

DEXTER: what do u say ?

al diazgerrero: i think, that each of the gospel authors, wrote them according to their personal sittuation

DEXTER: but aren't they God's word as christians claim ?

al diazgerrero: like for example john, he wrote more interesting details of jesus than the others because he became an eye witness during the last hours of jesus

DEXTER: and remember when we stated before that God's word does not have contradicitons ..

al diazgerrero: to me they do not contradict, but enrich each others writings

DEXTER: we shall ckeck on this statement . especially when they go each one in a different way that there would be no way to say such a statement : enrich each other .

DEXTER: but rather the Mathew and Luke stole from Marks .. and thats what we shall see learly .

DEXTER: clearly**

al diazgerrero: i think that you and me can discuss this without interfering in what each other beleives in

DEXTER: yeah . when someone wanna seek the truth , then he should not take previously established believes as for granted but rather seek it with clear heart and mind.

DEXTER: u know what I mean .

al diazgerrero: for how long have you been studying the scriptures ?

DEXTER: not a short time .

DEXTER: as for the Bible , only about two years ..

DEXTER: but yet things are still hidden to me and sometimes I need some help on specific topics

al diazgerrero: well i have studied the bible since 2000

DEXTER: I would not say that I am perfect in the Bible . but I know things that most christians are ignorant of now adays

al diazgerrero: and you can trust me, and will receive instructions and valuable news for you, if you just open your mind a little more

DEXTER: lol.. my mind is fully-opened my friend. and thats why I analyse and study .. I do not let previously established beleivs control my attitude of thinking . but rather I study it and analyse it to compare it to other things from the scriptures too .

DEXTER: you know what I mean? I love my Lord with all my mind

DEXTER: that is the first commandment

al diazgerrero: i think that what you are saying is difficult to accomplish beacuase all mankind is very, influenceable, and we do not ever start anything with a blank mind, we start changing the way we think in a very slow procccess

DEXTER: we can try our best .. we are still humans and we are notperfect

DEXTER: but we can be close to perfection

DEXTER: that is what Jesus said: Sell ur belongings and u will be perfect ..

al diazgerrero: yeah

DEXTER: but I would not asume that . but rather we can be clsoe to perfection in this matter , as much as humanly possible

DEXTER: so lets start .. which topic wanna start ?

DEXTER: I would rather stick to one topic all day , and maybe in the nest couple of talks too

al diazgerrero: we already startde

al diazgerrero: *sarted

al diazgerrero: started*

DEXTER: well .. how about we talk about the devinity of Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: i am going to tell you something that you need to notice and check in the bible

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: everytime in the hole bible, God never ever loses he is perfectly wise and perfectly everything, the mistakes are all from men

DEXTER: I know that this topic is almost prohibited to discuss for most of the christians.. but we said we wanna be close to perfection. ok ?

al diazgerrero: if you read carefuly

al diazgerrero: you will find that the human being lies

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: for example

al diazgerrero: when the rich youngman, askes jesus, what does he need to do in order to earn the eternal life

al diazgerrero: this passage is right after the one where jesus blesses the children

al diazgerrero: remember?

DEXTER: AHA

al diazgerrero: well, jesus told him that it was necessary to follow the commandments

DEXTER: AHA

al diazgerrero: the young man, asked wich commandments,jesus answered: the commandments, the ones that are in the book of exodus chapter 20

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: he did not speak like thi ok, these are my own words

al diazgerrero: and then the young man

DEXTER: yeah .. i remember

al diazgerrero: answered, i follow all of them since i was a boy

al diazgerrero: one of the commandments clearly states that we must love our neighbors

DEXTER: AHA

al diazgerrero: and the youngman said that he foolowed those commandments

al diazgerrero: but

al diazgerrero: when jesus told him to sell everything and give it to the poor

al diazgerrero: he became sad

al diazgerrero: why

al diazgerrero: because

al diazgerrero: we

al diazgerrero: the human beings

al diazgerrero: LIE

DEXTER:

al diazgerrero: we say we do something according to our opinion, but when jesus tests us we prove we are not being honest with ourselves

DEXTER: am not really sure about this statement u have made..

DEXTER: but lets take it as it is .

al diazgerrero: then how do you explain that the young man is saying that he follows the commanment, and when he is asked to exactly do so, to give to the poor he does not do it but instead he goes away

DEXTER: and according to that , when ppl lie and they are not honest with themselves and us , isn't that a good reason to check every single word they say ?

al diazgerrero: is that a contradiction of tthe word of God

al diazgerrero: or of the word of men ?

DEXTER: am still not getting ur point where is the contradiction here ?

al diazgerrero: that he first claims that he follows the commandment

DEXTER: this is not the contradiction am talking about

al diazgerrero: and when the author of this commandment askes him to fulfill it he does not

DEXTER: I was talking about contradictions that can never be both correct .. for example the contradiction of the timing of the crucifiction ..

DEXTER: this is what I am talking about .

al diazgerrero: i know you are not refering to this contradiction, but it is an example,of how to hanlde what we apparently seee as contradictions in th ebible

DEXTER: one said something , while another said something different . and there is no way to compromise them both together . this is what I mean by contradiction

al diazgerrero: but jesus was evidently cruciphied, yes?

DEXTER: we shall check on it ,, this is not our topic .. i would rather not comment

al diazgerrero: may i ask you something

DEXTER: go ahead ..

al diazgerrero: what do you beleive in ?

DEXTER: I did not say yes or no . i am still seeking with u ,,

DEXTER: if we found out that JEsus was really crucified , then fine , we shall take it

DEXTER: u know what I mean? i do not let pre-establilshed believes to control my reseach ,,

DEXTER: thats all .. and I do not want to declare pre-statements unless we search for it

al diazgerrero: ok, but you have not ansewered my question

DEXTER: 1 min

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: my friend . if I told u from the beginning that Trinity is a false doctrine and it was added to the Bible later, you would not listen to me all this time . so thats why I would not prefer to declare anything without any search ..

DEXTER: we search and then we declare . u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: don't be afraid of being honest with me, i will not reject you

DEXTER: that is the step-by-step research we wanna go through

DEXTER: I do not wanna tell u what I wanna go to , so that u have pre-understanding that whatever I say is not true .

DEXTER: u know what I mean ? at the end . either u take it , or u just refuse it from the beginning

al diazgerrero: what you are doing is sincere, you must know we don't find God, God finds us. and if you have this interest is because God himself put this in your heart

DEXTER: and at the end , it is just a talk .. maybe would have some effects and maybe not

al diazgerrero: don't worry, trust me, my faith does not depend on you, you have the right to beleive what you prefer

DEXTER: yeah thats right .

DEXTER: 1 min

al diazgerrero: yeah, trust me, you will never offend me

DEXTER: back .

DEXTER: well my friend . u asked for honesty and u will have it ..

al diazgerrero: i was just trying to help you, thats why i was asking you, what do you beleive un, so that way we can start from your own point of view

DEXTER: I am a Muslim .. and I am interested in religion study and comparision .. I talk to ppl and check with them and share with them what I have . so either They take or they refuse it .. do not pre-judge me nor Islam .. we are talking about Jesus that we both share in our belief

al diazgerrero: but if you are muslim, you dont beleive in jesus as god

al diazgerrero: because the koran is very specific about that

DEXTER: see !! thats what I do not wanna be . we are pre-judging and declaring without any study ,, u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: yes, but i accept you

DEXTER: we wanna check everything step by step ..

al diazgerrero: i will tell you a secret

DEXTER: and if u are interested also , we can arrange some talks about Islam too

DEXTER: go ahead

al diazgerrero: a special secret

DEXTER: aha

DEXTER: ?

al diazgerrero: some years ago about ten or more, i dont remember exactly... i used to drink and use drugs, and i quit his 6 years ago, i used to smoke crack and get very very drunk

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and God, rescued me from this, and one of the main ways he used was teaching me tolerance and love to the people

al diazgerrero: i would never reject you, for your religion or for anything else

DEXTER: thanks

al diazgerrero: because if God did not reject me i do not have the right to reject anybody

al diazgerrero: i did not learn this in christianity

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: i learned this with a special place group of people

al diazgerrero: that donot care who you are, where you come from, or what you beleive in

al diazgerrero: they are only interested in helping

DEXTER: yeah ..

al diazgerrero: and even though they all belong to different cultures and religions they work together, in this task of helping people like me,

DEXTER: i see that is rare to find among christians

al diazgerrero: and they toght me this very very important matter, to accept everyone just as thay are

DEXTER: do u have a computer at home ?

al diazgerrero: when they work togheteher they don;t work as christians or muslims or anything, they work as alcoholics anonymous

al diazgerrero: yes i have a pc at home

DEXTER: actually i wanna send u something by mail..

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: one of the books which are interesting ..

al diazgerrero: i love reading

DEXTER: it is titled: What did Jesus really say ? ..

DEXTER: it is an islamic book of course ..

DEXTER: and it answers back almost everything

al diazgerrero: ok

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: It does a better job than our talks in here .

DEXTER: but we can still discuss things here also

al diazgerrero: i think that our job is fine

al diazgerrero: because we are talking of the most important matter of all

al diazgerrero: God

DEXTER: yeah . that is right ..

DEXTER: what is your email address

DEXTER: ?

al diazgerrero: you know why mankind can never absolutely agree in everything?

DEXTER: aha ?

al diazgerrero: biblicly because

al diazgerrero: God himself, when mankind tryed to reach heaven by there own means through the babel tower, He sent a spirit of confussion

al diazgerrero: this confussion works exactly the way we are witnessing now a days

DEXTER:

DEXTER: well . disagreeing with u does not change anything , whatever .

al diazgerrero: i did not understand

al diazgerrero: hehe

DEXTER: I mean , I disagree to this statement , but that does not change anything .

DEXTER: so lets go back to where we are .. shall we ?

al diazgerrero: it's ok with me

DEXTER: ok great

DEXTER: in our research of knowing God , we found out that Trinity is not geniunly from the Bible..

al diazgerrero: aha

DEXTER: now before discussing the Devinity of Jesus , we wanna check something by our minds

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: what does the word " Son of God" mean ? i mean .. does it mean that Jesus is God ?

DEXTER: like for example , in order to know what the word "Son" mean , we have to check the meaning of it

al diazgerrero: go on

DEXTER: Son is a word that means another entity from the father that share the basic nature of the source (father) and has the same properties that define the father , and also is from the same substance too ..

DEXTER: do we agree ?

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: and when we say : son of cow , that means definitely a cow ..

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: and son of camel , that means definetly a camel

DEXTER: and there is no way to say that a camel gave birth to a cow or vise versa

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: therefore , Son of God , should mean definitely God like his father

DEXTER: u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: something esle we wanna see ..

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: having a son means that father (source) have given birth to the son.. in one way or another ..

DEXTER: we shall not discuss the way how father gave birth to son ,. but we shall take it as it is

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: now beget is an action verb ..

DEXTER: and that means : it separates the time to three main parts..

DEXTER: before the act , during the act , and after the act

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: and there is no way to combine these times and mix them since the act separates them ..

DEXTER: now the Bible states that God has no beginning , nor an end .. and that one of the things that define od from other things ..

DEXTER: only God has no beginning nor an end .. this is one of the properties that define God ..

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: and if we took for granted that God begot a son .. then this son as we have seen must share the basic properties that define the father ..

al diazgerrero: and?

DEXTER: because son means the same as father .. basically .

DEXTER: but the verb beget separated time and however we tried to go back in eternity , there will be time before the act ..

DEXTER: and in that way , there would be no way for the son to share the basic definitions from the father .. because son must have a beginning..

DEXTER: and in that manner , son loses one of the definitions to be God . u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: therefore , Muslims say that God is one and has no Son ..

DEXTER: and it is logically acceptable .

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: now .. after this logic check we can ask a very important Q .

DEXTER: while we can see God decalring many times that He is God (in the Bible)

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: and while we can see God asking us in the Bible to worship Him,

DEXTER: can we see Jesus decalring that He is God , or asking ppl to worship him ?

DEXTER: and that is a very important Q ..

DEXTER: can we?

al diazgerrero: no

al diazgerrero: except in the book of revelations

DEXTER: then.. what makes Jesus to be God ? there must be some declaration for that belief to be adopted . and Revalation is a dream . and not a declaration by Jesus . u know what I mean

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: now lets check the things that made Jesus God .. one by one and discuss it together ,

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: and see if this thing - that qualified Jesus to be God - is so special about Jesus and no one really shares it with him

al diazgerrero: go on

DEXTER: and see also what things that do not Qualify him to be God and states clearly that Jesus is only a Human being .

DEXTER: we agree together that we both believe in Jesus , and we both love him . and we both glorify him . maybe in different manners , but we still glorify him in some way

al diazgerrero: continue

DEXTER: and since Jesus never said that he is God , or asked ppl to worship him , then we must check this doctrine too , the doctrine that says : Jesus is God , Son of God (in the full meaning of the word)

DEXTER: if Jesus said that clearly , then this conversation is over .. because JEsus did that .. but since he never said it , and it was another conclusion of christian wolrd - just like Trinity - then we have to go and then the validity of it

DEXTER: check the validity of it**

DEXTER: do we agree ?

al diazgerrero: yes, i see what you mean

al diazgerrero: and i supposse you are absolutely sure of what your saying

DEXTER: yeah . hopefully .

DEXTER: now .. first of all . from now on , I would love to show u the Islamic view regarding such matters . and I would love to share with you what God revealed in the Quran whenever I find it necessary .. ok?

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: good . lets start with what the Quran says about Son of God . ..

DEXTER: we shall share some verse 21:19-29

al diazgerrero: go ahead

DEXTER: "And unto Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and the earth and those who dwell in His presence do not scorn to worship Him nor do they weary. They glorify Him night and day; They flag not. Or have they chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead If there were therein gods besides Allah then verily both (the heavens and the earth) would have gone to ruin. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne from all they ascribe (unto Him). He is not questioned as to that which He does, but they will be questioned. Or have they chosen other gods besides Him, say: Bring your proof (of their godhead), this is the reminder of those with me and those before me, but most of them know not the truth so they are averse (to it). -

DEXTER: And we sent no messenger before you but we inspired him (saying): There is no god save Me (Allah) so worship Me. And they say: The Compassionate has taken unto himself a son. Nay! but (they) are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken and they obey His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they cannot intercede except for those whom He accepts and they quake for awe of Him. And whosoever among them says: I am a god other than Allah, the same shall We reward with Hell. Thus do We reward the wrong doers.”

DEXTER: and there are many verses also talking about Jesus , we can share it later if u are interested

al diazgerrero: yes, i know the basic teachings of the koran

al diazgerrero: i have a koran

DEXTER: now .. lets check the claim that Jesus is God from the Bible itself . and lets see wether the Quran was telling a lie or the truth..

DEXTER: of course , it is not me who Judges the words of Quran , nor u tell me .. but rather this is between u and urself.. I am not waiting for confirmation of this ,

DEXTER: but it is a check we make . and we keep the result for ourselves

DEXTER: do we agree ?

al diazgerrero: i dont agree in somethings but, go ahead

DEXTER: ok .. thats fine for now

DEXTER: now tell me .. what Qualifies Jesus to be God? gimme one by one .. so we can check it together

DEXTER: one reason now .

DEXTER: one thing only now that qualifies Jesus to be God

al diazgerrero: ok, are you ready

al diazgerrero: a few nentences behind

al diazgerrero: sentenses

al diazgerrero: *sentences

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: behind

al diazgerrero: you were explainig very well about verb timing

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and you said that it was not possible...

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and there is no way to combine these times and mix them since the act separates them ..

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: these were your words

al diazgerrero: but you know

al diazgerrero: that one of Gods features is that he is omnipresent

al diazgerrero: yes ?

al diazgerrero: do you agree with me that God is omnipresent

DEXTER: do u want a yes or no answer accroding to Islam belief ?

al diazgerrero: just answer, did you know that God is everywhere

al diazgerrero: ??

DEXTER: according to the islamic belief , God is beyond the Universe and He is with us with His knowledge .. but not physically .. because God is infinite and Universe can not hold Him . He Hears our prayers and He watches upon us .. that is basically the Islamic belief

DEXTER: but go ahead ..go on .

al diazgerrero: ok, so that means he is everywhere in other words, yes ?

DEXTER: in His knowledge .. but not physically

al diazgerrero: of course not phisically, but He is everywhere right, absolutely everywhere

al diazgerrero: do you agree /

DEXTER: yes ,, in the meaning that He knows everything and Witnesse Everything .

al diazgerrero: but you dont beleive that his presence is also everywhere

al diazgerrero: not his phissical presence

al diazgerrero: but his presence

DEXTER: of course, in that meaning I agree,.

al diazgerrero: well if God is absolutely present everywhere

al diazgerrero: this means in all places

DEXTER: aha

DEXTER: go on

al diazgerrero: then he is also present in all times

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: so thats why you are wrong when you say that the act separates them

DEXTER: ? am not getting the point

al diazgerrero: because even though jesus is the son

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: he existedsince ever along with the father

DEXTER: this is the unlogic thing about this doctrine , since he is not the fathe, that means he was begotten from the father and there was a time when we was not there ! u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: he existed since ever, along with the father

DEXTER: this way of thinking draws us to saying that we have 2 different Gods..

DEXTER: and that is not True from the Bible itself ..

al diazgerrero: ok,i know how you feel

al diazgerrero: and it is intersting because your questions are very well formulated

DEXTER: no matter how we tried to explain how the son was begotten , it draws our logic to a previous time , when son was not there

DEXTER: unless there were separated from eternity and that make Jeuss another God beside the Father .

al diazgerrero: i think that when God said let's create man, according to our image

al diazgerrero: explains me that we can explains me things that i do not understand with things i do understand

DEXTER: I think I have answered that back my friend ,,it is a way of respect .. this is true regarding both Herbow and Arabic

al diazgerrero: yes, but i mean of the fact that we were created according to his image

al diazgerrero: and there is something else i want to tell you

al diazgerrero: in very old bible versions

DEXTER: now tell me . do we know Herbow better than the Jewish ? no! and the jews never claimed that God is more than one person becuase of this declaration..

al diazgerrero: in the book of genesis

al diazgerrero: it does not say God

al diazgerrero: "God said"

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: it says :"the elohims said"

al diazgerrero: Elohims

DEXTER: let me correct u .

al diazgerrero: did you know that

DEXTER: it said : Elohym .. and not Elohym ,. and this "ym" is the plural in herbow and that shows respect ..

DEXTER: and not Elihyms**

DEXTER: Elohyms**

DEXTER: and the exact translation for this : God Almighty

al diazgerrero: yes, i see you knew that, and do you know what this means

al diazgerrero: it clearly says the word in plural

al diazgerrero: yes ?

DEXTER: also , if u read the Quran , u can find that the englsih translation shows that God talks in plural .. and yet Arabs never claimed that God is plural or more than one or has many personalities for this Plural .

al diazgerrero: have you read carefully, it is written in plural, and it means the lords

al diazgerrero: have you ever read what king david wrote

DEXTER: this is happened because the Herbow has different properties from other languages .

al diazgerrero: the lord said tomy lord

DEXTER: and when translating it , u have to know the properties of Herbow , because literal translation will be misleading

al diazgerrero: "the Lord said to my Lord"

DEXTER: we shall talk about this prophecy too and check on it later .

al diazgerrero: "sit in my right

al diazgerrero: "

DEXTER: but lets keep up the same subject

DEXTER: u said that Plural form means : many personalities ..

al diazgerrero: it is the same subject, i am saying that God's ppl were aware of this matter

DEXTER: and I told u that Arabic and Herbow share the same properties in that ..

DEXTER: Arabs or Jews never claimed that God has many personalities .. because they are aware of the language more than others,,

DEXTER: this "S" is a respect from .. and when I write to my boss i say :

DEXTER: Dear Sirs , I would like from you (plural in arabic - since English does not distinguish it from singular) to Jion me (in singular because I am trying to show respect) so and so ..

al diazgerrero: but they did not explain it very thoroughly, one because it is very difficult to understand and second becuase in salvation means, or in order to be saved, or in the interest of pleasing God, this issue is not important, the important thing, through witch we shall be saved is one, beleiving, this is faith, and second, obeying the commandments

DEXTER: aha.. believing is the first step. and that is correct .. once we have believing , we have the second step .. and this beleieving is what we are looking for .. a pure one

al diazgerrero: beleiving that jesus is my personal savior, and following the 10 commandments

al diazgerrero: that simple, that is basically the christian dochtrine

DEXTER: yeah,,

DEXTER: but tell me first . have I explained enough to u regarding plural form ?

al diazgerrero: God or christian dochtrine, does not demmand that we must beleive in what we do not understand, but it does demand obedience, and also to beleive that jesus saves me

DEXTER: ask the jews , what is this YM . and they will tell u

al diazgerrero: YM?

DEXTER: ask the arabs .. what is this "S" and they will tell u ,.

DEXTER: Elohym . - or Elohim whatever it is in English

DEXTER: the word is Eloh + plural form ..

DEXTER: and we as arabs share the word with them : Eloh as Elah ...

DEXTER: and Elah means: god ..and Allah means God Almighty

al diazgerrero: ok, the same nature of the word is plural

al diazgerrero: and do you know why you share some of these important words?

al diazgerrero: are you arab /

al diazgerrero: ??

DEXTER: so this plural from does not say that God is more than One but rather glorifies God in Herbow and Arabic

DEXTER: yeah I am arab

al diazgerrero: do you know your origin

DEXTER: what do u mean ?

al diazgerrero: in the beginning jews and what later became the arabic shared the same God

al diazgerrero: in fact, you are a great nation

al diazgerrero: according to the prophecy

DEXTER: thanks .. we shall see that prophecy tooo.. it is a great one

DEXTER: may I correct you for something?

al diazgerrero: i have to do somthing, excuse me a minute, i'll be back

DEXTER: ok take ur time

al diazgerrero: ok,im back

DEXTER: w/b

al diazgerrero: thanks

al diazgerrero: ok, so where were we

DEXTER: we were I was correcting u

DEXTER: I understood from ur talk that Jews are the origin nation of the arabs, did u mean that ?

al diazgerrero: not the jews, but abraham

DEXTER: exactly . Abraham is the father of Isac , father of the Jews,

al diazgerrero: and father of Ismael

DEXTER: and also Father of Ismael , but Ismael is not the father of Arabs ..

DEXTER: Ismael lived with the Arabs

DEXTER: Arabs where there before the time of Abraham too

DEXTER: Scholars say that Arabs are origiannly from Yaman ,, south west if the Arabian Gulf

DEXTER: of*

al diazgerrero: when Abraham, prayed to the lord for his first son that was ismael, God promised that he would make out of ismael a very big and prosperous nation

DEXTER: yeah . correct .. and that is one of the most important prophecies we shall discuss later

DEXTER: lets go back .

al diazgerrero: that prophecy has been fulfilled

al diazgerrero: yeah if you like let's go back

DEXTER: 1 min

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: now we have seen that this "S" is not a clue for multiple-personaliy God . as I have already explained to u ..

DEXTER: but rather a form of respect .. we use it in our daily life till today

DEXTER: and jews are still using it till today

al diazgerrero: yes, i think that is clear and i understand

DEXTER: good

DEXTER: now .. i asked one of the statements that Qualifies Jesus to be God ..

DEXTER: as we said , we shall talk in all .but I would take them one by one

DEXTER: how about checking the title: Son of God ?

DEXTER: as a first step toward the devinity of Jesus

al diazgerrero: it is not easy for me because you don't beleive in the revelations in the bible, where it clearly specifies that jesuschrist is the lord

DEXTER: good . that is another clue for u that Jesus is God , because he was called Lord,. right ?

DEXTER: now we have two things : Son of God , and Lord ..

DEXTER: right ?

al diazgerrero: yes, basically yes

DEXTER: lets take the first one . - as I said - I shall go through whatever u give me that indicates that Jesus is God .. and If some of the statements u forgot , I will discuss it with u and remind u with them ..

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: so we shall help each other in this

DEXTER: Son of God . this is the topic ..

DEXTER: if you execuse me , i wanna get the bible ready for we have a lot of quotes now

DEXTER: so gimme a min. and brb soon

al diazgerrero: k

DEXTER: am back .. sorry for being late

al diazgerrero: no problem

DEXTER: christians usually tell us that Bible states in BOLD that Jesus is the only son of God, then how do muslims say that God has no children ?

al diazgerrero: i ignore the muslim creed

al diazgerrero: in many ways

al diazgerrero: i only know that mahoma is your only prophet, and alah your only god

DEXTER: we have seen previously that in order to understand what Jesus said , we have to understand that in the language of the ppl he talked to - the jews and Herbow language ,,

DEXTER: because If i told u an exact translation for one sentence in Arabic , then u would certainly misunderstand it . for example:

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: in arabic we say : what is your color?

al diazgerrero: aha

DEXTER: ur answer would be definitely not the way it was intended to be ,.,.

DEXTER: u will answer like: white or balck or whatever.

DEXTER: while this Q was intended to mean : how are u ?

al diazgerrero: interesting

DEXTER: and the same thing goes for english translation to Arabic ,, if u translating the word: look up - into Arabic literally , it will never mean the way it was intended to be as : Search ..

DEXTER: this is a rule for translation in all languages

DEXTER: that in order to understand the meaning of the word , we have to know its meaning in the original language and how speakers of that language understood the word ..

al diazgerrero: ok, i got that

DEXTER: i think that everyone agrees to this .

DEXTER: now .. let us ask ourselves a Q ..

DEXTER: How many sons does God have ?

al diazgerrero: one single son

DEXTER: I want u to help me in answering this .. How many sons does God have

DEXTER: ?

DEXTER: ok .. lets see what the Bibles says :

DEXTER: 1.Jacob is God's son and firstborn: “Israel is my son, even my firstborn” Exodus 4:22.

DEXTER: 2.Solomon is God's son “He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son”: 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

DEXTER: 3.Ephraim is God's firstborn: “for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).

DEXTER: 4.Adam is the son of God “Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:38.

al diazgerrero: ephraim is the first son of israel

al diazgerrero: all the first born are his sons

al diazgerrero: in his law

al diazgerrero: all firts born belong to god

DEXTER: 5.Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: “Ye are the children of the LORD your God” Deuteronomy 14:1. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12. “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” Philippians 2:15. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God” 1 John 3:1-2. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Job 38:7.

al diazgerrero: jacob stole from esau the stauts of first son

DEXTER: “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 1:6. “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,” Genesis 6:4. “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” Genesis 6:2

DEXTER: as we can see , the term son of God was commonly used in the Bible before and after Jesus , to describe common ppl ..

al diazgerrero: not common ppl

al diazgerrero: as a explained

al diazgerrero: did not you see

al diazgerrero: what i said above

al diazgerrero: but i do see your point

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: we are all sons of god once we accept him, and fulfill his will

DEXTER: so the term son of God is not a unique term for Jesus , while we all are sons of God ..

al diazgerrero: go on...

DEXTER: something I would like to share with u

DEXTER: in Latin languages , English , French and Spanish , so forth ..

DEXTER: these Languages have capital letters and small letters

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: and they use it like God and god - Son and son ..

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: but knowing that Herbow and Arabic are not the same .. the letter has one form .. there is no difference in writing in Arabic and Hernow between Son and son.. u know what I mean ?

al diazgerrero: of course

DEXTER: As we can see, the use of the term “son of God“ when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus’ people

DEXTER: it was used before and after to describe someone who applies God's will on earth, who is close to God , Prophets , and good ppl

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: now lets check something else :

DEXTER: was Jesus the only Begotten Son of God?

DEXTER: lets see what the Bible states:

al diazgerrero: i am here go on

DEXTER: Read Psalms 2:7 - “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”.

DEXTER: Such terminology can be found quite extensively throughout the Bible. For example:

“My mother and my brothers are these which hear the word of God, and do it.”

Luke 8:21

“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”

Mark 3:35

al diazgerrero: exactly

DEXTER: Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus he defended himself with the following words :

DEXTER: “The Jews answered him (Jesus), saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, Ye are gods?’ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken...”

John 10:33-34

al diazgerrero: yes

DEXTER: (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..”)

al diazgerrero: so true

DEXTER: Many members of the Church point to John 10:33 to try and prove that Jesus claimed that he was the “son of God,” however, they stop here and to not bother to read Jesus’ answer in the next verse. In this case we must ask those who say that Jesus claimed to “literally” or “physically” be the “son of God” to apply their same standard to the rest of the passage and also claim that the Jews too are “literally” and “physically” “gods.” The only way to claim that Jesus was “literally” the son of God while the Jews were not “literally” gods is to claim that Jesus took Psalms 82:6 out of context. Something he would never do.

DEXTER: u know what I mean?

al diazgerrero: we both know, men canot be gods

DEXTER: As we can see from these and many other verses like them, “son of God” in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as “Son of God” (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and “son of God” (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same.

DEXTER: now lets see what the Grolier’s encyclopedia says under the heading Jesus Christ:

DEXTER: it says :

DEXTER: “During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be “my Lord.” Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as “my Lord.”.... it is unlikely that the title “Son of David” was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. “Son of God,” in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par -

DEXTER: .; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself” .

DEXTER: There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus refers to himself as “son of God.” They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in “The dictionary of the Bible” says: “Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.”

al diazgerrero: “Son of God,” equivalent of Messiah...

DEXTER: aha

DEXTER: what are u trying to say ,, explain to me

al diazgerrero: no, i am not trying to explain, you are explaining and i like your research

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the “son of Man“ (literally: “Human being”) 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people. - though the church disregarded the Gospel of Barnaba , but it is still a reference in our search ..

DEXTER: Jesus was not the son of a human man - human father - (according to both the Bible and the Qur’an). However, we find him constantly saying “I am the son of man” (eg. Matt. 17:12,Mark 8:38, Luke 9:56). Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say “I am a human being.”

al diazgerrero: listen friend, i have to go now, i will sign other from another location in about 30 min, pls standby

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: look

DEXTER: i have to go too

DEXTER: we shall talk later ,

al diazgerrero has signed out. (23/08/1426 08:33 م)

الكثير من النصارى يرفضون الحوار في النقاط التي تكلمت فيها مع هذا الشخص في حواري التالي .. لقد تطرقنا الى مواضيع في غاية الأهمية و نرى في حواره كيف انه بدأ يقدم التنازلات واحداً تلو الآخر .. و ليس عندي إلا أن أدعو له بالهداية .. لا تنسوه من هذا الدعاء بالغيب ..

DEXTER: wow . one friend goes , another comes and life still goes on and on

al diazgerrero: he

DEXTER: how are u my friend ?

al diazgerrero: goodmorning

al diazgerrero: fine, and you?

DEXTER: good morning to and good afternoon to me

DEXTER: am fine..

al diazgerrero: thank god

DEXTER: I wanna say am sorry for our last chat for being a lil bit tough and rude maybe,, i could feel ur patience with me is not the same as before .. so am sorry again.. i never meant u to get sad or mad at all

al diazgerrero: dont worry, everything is ok, this is normal in us humans, we need to accept our failures and forgive our failiures, and continue with our frriendship

DEXTER: i wanna share with u something happened to me today

DEXTER: i was in chatrooms looking for someone to talk to ..

DEXTER: and then someone came to me and he was 19 years old .

DEXTER: so we started talking about God and other stuff .

DEXTER: he was a christian. not that well-educated as u are , but a normal one who reads the Bible

DEXTER: and after a while I could see the clear misconceptions Bible has created in his mind regarding God .. and this thing is very normal and I will tell u what he said :

DEXTER: he said that the Bible states that there is one God in the OT ..

al diazgerrero: i am reading go on

DEXTER: and then suddenly , God decided to reveal another God - who is Jesus Christ- and that God changed his mind. I am pretty sure that he was not a crazy man since he found no verse in the Bible to tell him that the three are one . u know what I mean ..

DEXTER: so he figured out so innocently that now we have three Gods.. and not One ,.

DEXTER: and he tried for many hours to convince me in that , and then he accused me for being a stupid man .

DEXTER: i do not blame him u know

al diazgerrero: for christians this is what they call a private interpretation of the bible, that is to conclude on things they are not specificly stated

DEXTER: he never said a word out of the Bible . he was reading and quoting .

DEXTER: so my point is :

DEXTER: he never knew that there was a verse added to the bible and them omitted in the modern bibles that say God is three in one . and maybe no one told him so , and he tried his best to conclude the right faith from the bible .

DEXTER: but he sadly failed to reach Trinity the way Christians do today ..

DEXTER: God was supposed to be more clear int he Bible regardning His nature .. if He was Trinity for real .

al diazgerrero: 1 min. pls

DEXTER: ok . and I hope u understand what I mean: if someone who never heard of christianity , took the Bible and read it , and was asked to conclude the nature of God, who would never come to the form of Trinity .. but rather he would be the same as our friend here . he would conclude the same result that our friend found : God is one in OT and now He is Three Gods in NT ,, and that these three are three Gods and not one God I hope u get my point .

al diazgerrero: i get your point

al diazgerrero: you know that in christianity

al diazgerrero: there are very many small groups called churches or sects

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and each church or sect even though they all worship jesus, they differ in their main message

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: for example, some of them base their creed on baptism

DEXTER: but it was supposed for the message of Jesus to be clear in the Bible and that it must not be of contraversary .. u know what I mean

DEXTER: since the main goal for JEsus that He guides humanity , then why would be vage in the Bible to see the main pillars of christianity especailly during the lifetime of JEsus

al diazgerrero: other beleviers, manke enphasis on the holy spirit

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: others like the adventists

al diazgerrero: make enphasis on the ten commandments, like resting on saturday

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: there are the witnesses of jehova

al diazgerrero: who say what you say

DEXTER: then why would JEsus leave us in such confusion if this is the true message of his ?

al diazgerrero: and all these different doctrines

al diazgerrero: coexist

al diazgerrero: i even go to two or three different churches

al diazgerrero: becuase they all say the truth thier own way

DEXTER: Why he just says on the cross that I atoned the sins or humanity? or maybe after resurruction ? why would he prefer to leave this secret to Paul and to reveal it to him in his dreams ?

DEXTER: and even in the story of Paul we can see the contradictions clear that make us suspect the reliability of this man to tell the truth about Jesus

al diazgerrero: i dont see that these different creeds contradict each other until they say so textually, but really beleive me, if i am said to beleive in the holy spirit that is not in dispute with the fact that i also need to obey the 10 commandments

DEXTER: i see

DEXTER: but u did not answer me

al diazgerrero: i know i have not finished

DEXTER: heeh sorry

al diazgerrero: no prob

al diazgerrero: i am trying to make sense

al diazgerrero: and its not easy ok

DEXTER: yeah

al diazgerrero: pls have mercy and patience

DEXTER: lol .. u made me laugh .. am sure I will

al diazgerrero: thanks

al diazgerrero: first i would like to make this point clear:

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: us christians even though we are all, we do not all pay the same attention to all the truth stated in the bible

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: i am not trying to say if this is wrong or right i am just letting you know, giving you a view, of the environment here

DEXTER: aha

DEXTER: am aware of this truth .. and it reflects in the fact that christians are not in the same faith and concept regarding Jesus and God..

DEXTER: and thier point of view differs not only in churches but from one person to another

al diazgerrero: so i am saying this because i want you to notice that if the christians being christians have trouble trying to understand each other, how more difficult it is for a none christian to understand us ?

DEXTER: yeah .. exactly ..

DEXTER: that is a fact w

DEXTER: I can feel it everyday

DEXTER: each one is quite different from the other . and u can rarely see two share the exact conceptions

al diazgerrero: have you asked yuorself why this is

al diazgerrero: ?

DEXTER: yes ,, and I found the answer is that the Bible is not being clear with these conceptions and all the creeds - or most of it - are concluded and not adopted as it is from the Bible

al diazgerrero: that is in part true

DEXTER: no offense

al diazgerrero: dont worry, you can never offend me, sometimes as i am human i can get impatient but you would never offend me

DEXTER: and I would never mean to , though sometimes it might sound so

al diazgerrero: as i said that is part true, but have you noticed what the bible says about this apparent confusion, becuase cristian don't feel confused, they disagree but they are not confused

DEXTER: am not getting the point actually .. please rephrase it

al diazgerrero: ok,

al diazgerrero: it is like like when one does not know how to speak a certain other language

al diazgerrero: when you start learning this new language you will certainly need guidance

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and the way you will learn

al diazgerrero: 1 min pls

al diazgerrero: ok, and the way you will learn is not only determined by the new knowledge you are aquiring, but also by the method and the personality of the teacher

al diazgerrero: why is this

al diazgerrero: becuase in the firts place in the way jesus planned it

al diazgerrero: he firts told his aplostols to only visit the house of israel

al diazgerrero: and it so happened that as this house rejected the doctrine of jesus

al diazgerrero: he went to other people outside

al diazgerrero: this house

al diazgerrero: and for this task he chose a different person, different in many ways, a person as different as pablo

al diazgerrero: paul

al diazgerrero: he was the chosen apostole to give the message to the gentiles

al diazgerrero: but not before that the firts apostoles did their job

al diazgerrero: that is why paul in his writings say

al diazgerrero: something like this

al diazgerrero: are we from apolo?

al diazgerrero: are we from paul?

al diazgerrero: are we from christ

al diazgerrero: ?

al diazgerrero: refering to the diferent teachers

al diazgerrero: and he adds

al diazgerrero: christ is not divided

al diazgerrero: apolo planted, and i watered, but jesus, is the one in charge of the growth

al diazgerrero: are you getting me ?

DEXTER: fine . lemmi ask this . yes i got u

DEXTER: does God change his mind ?

al diazgerrero: in his basic plan no

DEXTER: First , he was teaching someting for the jews and then sudenly he teaches something else completely

al diazgerrero: but it is written that sometimes he has changed his mid

al diazgerrero: mind

DEXTER: fine .. now tell me ..

DEXTER: what is the proove that Paul has to make us sure about what he says , and that Jesus is really teaching him , and that these are not his own inventions ?

DEXTER: u know , these things are completely dangerous , as we said , he changed the whole message of Jesus during his life time .

al diazgerrero: the only proof we have of this is that he never glorified himself he always glorified jesus

DEXTER: do u think that is a good proof to sheck thr reality of his claims ?

DEXTER: Islam glorified Jesus as well . maybe more than the Bible in many points

al diazgerrero: jesus told tomas, you beleived becuase you saw, but joyful is whom without seeing beleived

al diazgerrero: paul did not see jesus at all, and he was blind for three days

DEXTER: and what did Thomas believe ? that Jesus was God ?

DEXTER: none of the apostles believed that JEsus was God

al diazgerrero: that he was alive after being dead in the cross

al diazgerrero: no

al diazgerrero: no apostoles beleived

al diazgerrero: that is why when one apostole asked him

al diazgerrero: show us the father

al diazgerrero: jesus answered

al diazgerrero: i have been all this time with you and you still don't know me

al diazgerrero: ?

DEXTER: I have good explanation for this statement , but I prefer to talk about it later

DEXTER: now tell me .. If Jesus was God, then why would He say that Father is our God and His God ? Does God have a God ?

al diazgerrero: may ia sak you something

DEXTER: yeah sure

al diazgerrero: i ask you somthing ?

al diazgerrero: why don't you tell me what you personaly think ?

al diazgerrero: i would like to know what is your opinion, of all the things you know and have read from the bible

DEXTER: am sorry .. am back

DEXTER: ok i will answer that ..

DEXTER: Islam is a religion of knowledge .. and God in Islam encourages us to learn and read .. He encourages us to have faith after thinking , and never asked us to have blinf faith .. God in Islam gave us the mind for a main purpose : to check the validity of His teachings to be truely from God Himslef , and not a human-invention.

DEXTER: the first verse that was revealed to Muhammad was: Read in the name of Who Created ..

al diazgerrero: ok, know do you know that in order to do that you only need to use your brain

DEXTER: lemmi explain

DEXTER: haven't finished

al diazgerrero: but in the bible we are encouregd to beleive in our heart

al diazgerrero: i know

al diazgerrero: go on

DEXTER: ok thanks

DEXTER: God said in the Quran : We (in repect from of plural) shall show them our signs in the Horizons and in theirsleves till it becomes clear to them that this is the truth (my own tranlsation)

DEXTER: and as the sinece develops , Muslims become more and more sure of the Islamic message that it is the Genuine Religion from God and that all what the Quran said was absolutely correct

DEXTER: Quran said that

DEXTER: that the true message of Jesus was not mantained as it was in the time of Jesus and humanity tampered with the word of God and changed it over the ages..

DEXTER: and new discoveries of the manuscripts agree to this fact ,. therefore we have more than 14000 manuscripts not even one same as anohter ,. and u may look for that up to see it truely admitted by shcolars

DEXTER: and the Quran said another thing : that Jesus is an elect messenger of God .. and not God ..

DEXTER: and whenever we try to prove that he is God from the Bible , we can se that there is another Verse that explains the satement JEsus was trying to say ..

DEXTER: and the Quran says that Jesus never asked ppl to worship him or claimed that he is God

DEXTER: and that is quite clear in the Bible

DEXTER: and also

DEXTER: the Quran said that Jesus was not crucified , but it was made appear to them .. meaning that someone else took the likeness of Jesus and was put to death instead ..

DEXTER: and whenever ppl argue about this matter, we see that this fact is correct for many reasons .. and since we never talked about it , then I would ratehr not go throuhg it now . it is a long search

DEXTER: so my point is :

DEXTER: we are encouraged to test the truth that was mentioned in the Quran , not only regarding Jesus , but also for everything - and also enouraged to share ppl with our findings .. so that the true message of God would be available for those who are looking for it ..

DEXTER: i know that u disagree about many things , but this is my point at last: that we share together our findings and test the teachings in the Bible and in the Quran to see wehter they are genuinely from God or invented by someone esle .

DEXTER: that is my personal Goal for all of that . If u are still interested in it after all , I would be pleased to share whatever I have with u .. and if u are not , then u are absolutely free .. and we can be still friends.

DEXTER: the Quran gives some clues to where we start ,, like Quran said :

DEXTER: the likeness of Jesus for God is same as Adam , He created him from soil and told him to BE! and He was ..

DEXTER: so this gives us as muslims that the miriculous birth of Jesus is not a good clue to make Jesus God since Adam was without father or mother ..

DEXTER: and mentions somethig else :

DEXTER: in my own words: that Jesus and his mother were eating food ,, and that is one of the examples that God showed to refer to their humanity ,.,

DEXTER: this verse means that If Jesus was eating and drinking like all humans , then he must go after all to the bathroom .. and uses a stone to clean himslef up .. that is absolutely unsuitable for God to do .. for God deos not eat or drink and is in need od nothing from His creation

DEXTER: these are some of the Quranic sings that God gave us .

DEXTER: and the whole point is that we share these points together .. if u are interested, I would be pleased to go on till I finish all my points. and IF u feel like this is Quite enough and u never want to hear a word about this anymore , then I understand completely .. and trust me , I would never be sad ..

DEXTER: we would always keep in touch as friends

DEXTER: are u still there ?

al diazgerrero: im here

al diazgerrero: you can go on if you like

DEXTER: I would love to my friend

DEXTER: this is my pleasure . for God in Islam will reward me so greatly for my deed whatever the result was.

DEXTER: Muhammad asked us to deliver for him to others even one sign (or verse)

al diazgerrero: ok, i see

DEXTER: and we are greatly rewarded for this , for Muhammad said that it is better for someone to guide another to Islam , rather than fighting in islamic battles and die there .. meaning: the reward is so great that it is humanly uncountable

al diazgerrero: i see

DEXTER: hm . lemmi ask u something.. have u ever studied Islam ?

al diazgerrero: i have read the koran

DEXTER: aha ,.. then tell me . is the position of Jesus in the Quran - is the only thing that u hate or disagree , or there are many points that make u believe that this is a human message and not from God?

al diazgerrero: i dont think it is a human message

DEXTER: then what it is ?

al diazgerrero: it is a spiritual message

DEXTER: well , I meant to ask : is that - what Quran said about Jesus - is the only reason that make u think that Quran is humanly-composed and not revealed from God ? that was my Q

al diazgerrero: no, i kow that spirits exists

al diazgerrero: and i don't hate the koran, its a piece of work

DEXTER: i see..

DEXTER: now let me ask u something..

al diazgerrero: and their are spirits that do not recognize jesus

al diazgerrero: as he is

al diazgerrero: but i don't have a problem with that

DEXTER: God promised to belss the nation of Ismael in the same way that He promised to Bless the nation of Isac .

DEXTER: isn't that right ?

al diazgerrero: not the same way

DEXTER: it is mentioned that both shall be blessed .

DEXTER: and the same word was used for both

al diazgerrero: bless yes, but not the same kind of blessing, when speaking of issac he spoke of a different blessing

DEXTER: fine, but we agree that this bless goes for both ,,

DEXTER: and what was the bless of God to Isac ?

DEXTER: wasn't it Moses and Jesus ?

al diazgerrero: that through his genealogy jesus would be born

DEXTER: good

DEXTER: we agree to this point

DEXTER: now tell me , why do we apply one attitude to Isac while when it comes to Ismael , we change our attitude ?

al diazgerrero: it is not a matter of attitude, let me explain

DEXTER: if God said that Ismael will be blessed and Isac too . and Jesus was the bless of Isac according to the christian belief , and Moses according to the JEws, and both according to the Islamic Faith .. then what was the belss of Ismael ?

al diazgerrero: then it would become a big and prosperous nation

DEXTER: good ,. now let me ask

al diazgerrero: but would you like me to explain about the attitued

al diazgerrero: that it is not about attitude

DEXTER: I have one point and don't wanna lose it . let me finish please

al diazgerrero: ok

DEXTER: now this great nation.. was it before Muhammad when Arabs were ignorants and never been heard of , or after Muahmmad when Islam was all over the world (mostly) and Arabs were in their best times ever ?

DEXTER: u know that Islam was in spain too..

DEXTER: and that was after Muhammad ,,right ? and not before . not one single time before . right ?

DEXTER: I just wanna know .. was this great nation after or before Muhammad ?

al diazgerrero: i am not sure because i ignore your history, but one nation can not be strong if it is not united, and that is what the koran do, it united the arabic world becuase before that they all went towards their own idols

DEXTER: good.. I can assure to u that it was after Muhammad and never been before

DEXTER: now let me ask another Q that comes to mind

DEXTER: Does God bless a nation with a false Prophet ?

DEXTER: Do u think that the Bless of Ismael to have a great nation by a false prophet?

DEXTER: since God blessed Isac by Jesus and he was not a false one, then the same must go to the nation of Ismael .

DEXTER: God does not misguide ppl .

DEXTER: a great nation came to earth and his bless was fulfilled by a false prophet ? do u agree to that ?

DEXTER: does the bless come by lying? does God enourage liars ?

DEXTER: and bless their nation ?

DEXTER: would u like to see another Prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible? there are plenty

al diazgerrero: go ahead

DEXTER: and Muhammad is mentioned by name in Herbow in song of songs .. it was said that way : Muhammadym ..

DEXTER: meaning: Muhammad the greatest ..

DEXTER: but when it was translated by jews to other languages , it was translated as a description and not a name

DEXTER: this name was not known beofre Muhammad ,. therefore they did not know that this is a name . and when Muahammad came from Ismael and not Isac , he was rejected by most of the jews for that reason and they still till today hiding his name in Herbow and translate it as description ,,

DEXTER: another prophecy about Muhammad . from the old testiment .

DEXTER: u can find lots of the prophecies in the book of Isaiah ..

al diazgerrero: i am here ok

DEXTER: If u know the biography of Muhammad u can see what I mean clearly just by urself

DEXTER: and u would not need my help .

al diazgerrero: i like the way you explain it

DEXTER: one of the most importnat prophecies :

DEXTER: let me get the exact word for it ,, it is importnat to realize the exact words

al diazgerrero: tyt

DEXTER: there is one verse that fortells the three elect messengers of God: Moses , Jesus and Mohammad

DEXTER: and this verse of the Bible is mentioned in the Quran in different manner ,.,.

DEXTER: lets check it together

al diazgerrero: i have to go for a moment, keep writing i will be back in an instant

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: “And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.”

Deuteronomy 33:1

DEXTER: this is one of the most importnat prophecies of the Bible regarding : Moses , Jesus and Muhammad in that order

DEXTER: let see this verse together..

DEXTER: first we have to know where these places are: Sinai, Seir , Paran

DEXTER: Sinai is the place where Moses recived the message of God , and that is in the Desert of Egypt in the east between Eygpt and Jordan.

DEXTER: Seir is the place where Jesus was sent , and it is in the place of the Dead Sea now , and in the River that Jesus was Baptised in .. River of Jordan ..

DEXTER: and Paran is a name of one of the mountains of Mekkah in the Arabian desert in the Gulf .. and Mekkah is the place where Muhammad was born and recieved his first revealaiotn .

DEXTER: this mountain is the mountain where Muhammad was and recieved the first revalation ..

DEXTER: it is in the biography of Muhammad .

al diazgerrero: ok

al diazgerrero: it sounds good

DEXTER: now lets see what the verse exactly says :

DEXTER: it says that God first came in Sinai . and that was the beginning of the Bless of Isac and the message of God .

al diazgerrero: i don't agree

DEXTER: in what point ?

al diazgerrero: they received the law there

DEXTER: yeah

DEXTER: exactly . the law was received there

al diazgerrero: the blessing came before, and to all of us

DEXTER: and that is a sign for the beginnig of a new Law

al diazgerrero: before the law and before the circumcision of abraham

al diazgerrero: so you can say you are doubled bllesed becuase you are aslo son of abraham

DEXTER: a sign that God send His message to Moses ,. and that is the meaning of Lord came to Sinai

DEXTER: and then .. God rose in Seir ,, where Jesus was sent ,.

DEXTER: and that is another message from God

DEXTER: and last message where God said: He Shined from Paran ..

DEXTER: and that was the message that Muhammad recieved .

DEXTER: in that order ,,

DEXTER: from exactly the same three places where the message was revealed .

al diazgerrero: may i say something while i stil have the time

DEXTER: sure

DEXTER: though i did not finish my points

DEXTER: go ahead .. am listening

al diazgerrero: i know but you said plenty enough so i could understand you, and i am a quik learner

al diazgerrero: *quick

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: i said before that humans have different spiritual needs

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and as you said muslims are the descendents of ismael,

al diazgerrero: this events took place before moses

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: muslims did not receive the law

DEXTER: May I comment now ?

al diazgerrero: the hebrews did

al diazgerrero: so if no law

al diazgerrero: no sin

al diazgerrero: you do not need a savior like the hebrews do

DEXTER: May I talk ?

al diazgerrero: you can

DEXTER: thanks

DEXTER: first of all , Muslims are not the descendents of Ismael . but rather Muhammad was .. and if u wanna make sure , I can give u the the names exactly . Arabs were famouse for keeping records for descendents ..

al diazgerrero: ok, wait

DEXTER: another thing: this events did not take place before Moses ., for God does not apply time to himself and he is beyond time , thats why we can see God in the Bible and the Quran talking in past tense in the meaning of future .

DEXTER: go ahead

al diazgerrero: if muhammad is descendent of ismael, and muslims follow muhammad then...

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: as you said it is through him that you are blessed, so certainly you are descendents of ismael

DEXTER: my friend , not All arabs are descentants of Ismael : meaning we are not relatives to Ismael ..

DEXTER: not all of us ,.

DEXTER: some tribes were sons of Ismael and they are well known

DEXTER: the tribe of Muhammad was one of them - from Kidar side

al diazgerrero: but you are all as a nation through the koran, that was written through muhammad

DEXTER: aha

DEXTER: yeh ,, one nation of Islam . different societies and different countries

DEXTER: and different origins

al diazgerrero: but no problem i am probably wrong

DEXTER: ok

DEXTER: so I have another point in this porphecy

al diazgerrero: go on

DEXTER: if we see what God said we realize that shining was first in Siani . and then He rose up from Seir .. and then completed the shining in Paran ,, and it gives us the picture of sun rising from one place .. and coming from another and its shining completes in Paran

DEXTER: another point :

DEXTER: and he came with ten thousands of saints

DEXTER: and that is in Paran according to the context

al diazgerrero: who are these 10,000saints

al diazgerrero: ?

DEXTER: 10 000 was the number of muslims with muhammad when he came back to Mekkah (Paran) after imigrating from it .. 10 000 muslims among the best muslims at that time .

DEXTER: and the reason there were called saints :

al diazgerrero: i know who a saint is

DEXTER: because they came to Mekkah not to fight , but to perform Haj, am not sure u know what It means in English

DEXTER: they came to perform on of the islamic five pillars that they visit Mekkah and have the worship of Haj in there . and if u read about this worhsip, u will understand what I mean

DEXTER: and in that event Muhammad spoke to these saints :

DEXTER: that God has forgiven all previous sins of theirs ..

DEXTER: thats why they were called saints

al diazgerrero: no i dont

DEXTER: how about another one?

DEXTER: if u like

al diazgerrero: let me say something

DEXTER: go ahead

al diazgerrero: in the bible a saint is a servant of god

DEXTER: exactly

al diazgerrero: a servant not a redemer

DEXTER: yeah..

DEXTER: what is a redemer ? check the spelling ..i did not get it

al diazgerrero: and how can god forgive sins just like that, if there is a law, and the only way to clean the sin is with blood

al diazgerrero: a redemptor

al diazgerrero: is that correct

al diazgerrero: ?

DEXTER: yeah

DEXTER: i got it

DEXTER: lemmi ask something ..

DEXTER: do u doubt the mercy of God?

DEXTER: forget the law now .. am asking it in general

DEXTER: don't u think that God is the most merciful ?

DEXTER: I think that u agree to the fact that there is no man merciful like God is

al diazgerrero: yes, but still he made the law, and he can nto possibly go against his own law

al diazgerrero: when a crime happens somebody must pay

al diazgerrero: the judge is just and merciful, but there is a law

al diazgerrero: it is like

DEXTER: when u believed that Paul went against Jesus' teaching to the jews , how did then God go against the law ?

DEXTER: law was said to never have pigs and many things we went through befoer .. while Paul threw that all away

al diazgerrero: paul lived after christ offered his blood for us in payment for all our sins

al diazgerrero: no, no

al diazgerrero: listen

al diazgerrero: dont mistake the Law with the law

DEXTER: and since God is the most Just . why has someone to pay penelty instead of the other ? do u agree that one of your son may pay the penelty of a murder another son comitted ? is that fair and Just ?

al diazgerrero: the Law the moral Law

al diazgerrero: the one that teach us good from wrong are the ten commandments

al diazgerrero: that is the Law

DEXTER: that is not Fair at all . and the one who puts the Law is beyond the Law .. He can do whatever He wants .. and even change that Law to fit to all humanity .. and thats what Happaend with the Law of Muhammad - Islam

al diazgerrero: explain yourself, or should i explain first

DEXTER: a new Law for a new message . message for all humanity , while we can see clearly that Jesus was sent to the jews only through all his missionary life

DEXTER: thats why he was under the Law of Moses

al diazgerrero: may i say something

DEXTER: sure go ahead

al diazgerrero: jesushimself

al diazgerrero: before leaving earth

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: prayed for his apostoles

al diazgerrero: and he prayed asking for for the apostoles and for the ppl after the apostoles that would learn about jesus through them

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: but lets not get lost

DEXTER: one thing i wanna comment ..

al diazgerrero: we were speaking of the most of all item: the redemption

al diazgerrero: the mercy of god

DEXTER: since Jesus was praying for his apostles , I wanna ask somethin : whom he was praying to? if he is God then He does not need to pray ? or does God pray to himslef ?

al diazgerrero: he certainly forgives us

DEXTER: go ahead

al diazgerrero: but the law needed to be fulfilled

al diazgerrero: christ payed for us with his blood, it is only through jesus that we receive the grace of god for only jesus died for us being himself clean of sin

al diazgerrero: and never mind if he is not god

al diazgerrero: according to the scriptures

al diazgerrero: he is not god

al diazgerrero: but according to the scriptures he is the messiah

DEXTER: yeah

al diazgerrero: christ means messiah

DEXTER: annointed one

al diazgerrero: what is annointed

DEXTER: that is the meaning of the Messiah in Herbow

al diazgerrero: ok

al diazgerrero: but the fact is that if you are aware that there is sin,

DEXTER: sure

al diazgerrero: the law states clearly in the prophet ezequiel

al diazgerrero: the soul that sins that will surely die

DEXTER: wait !!! Good statement !!

DEXTER: the soul that sins that will surely die !!! and not another soul !

DEXTER: it is not fair at all and it is not Just of God to shoulder someone all the sins of Humanity

al diazgerrero: yes and it is also written that every man has sinned

al diazgerrero: no, you are not listening

DEXTER: go ahead

al diazgerrero: every man has sinned, ok, so we all deserve death, but the merciful judge gave his own son to die for us so we can live forever, because he loves us, and does not want us to perish

al diazgerrero: and also if his son never has and never will sin it is clear that the death has no authority in him, his son

DEXTER: since he loves us , and since he knows that we are all sinners . why would he put Law that would kill us all ?

al diazgerrero: adam was warned

al diazgerrero: men has never been a victim of god but of his own decisions

DEXTER: if that point is correct , then God would spread his love in the first place but putting a Law that is more merciful to us .. u know what I mean ? and there would be no need for this complications

al diazgerrero: adam was explicitly warned, the day you eat, you will certainly die

DEXTER: and Adam did not Die though

DEXTER: u see what I mean ?

DEXTER: 1 min

al diazgerrero: god is absolutely perfect and he does not expect less then that from his sons

DEXTER: I have one point to clear ,. so please I wish to make it clear for u

al diazgerrero: just let me say this

DEXTER: ok

al diazgerrero: adam did not die instantly, but the process of death started in that very moment

al diazgerrero: you know that as we grow older

DEXTER: we have talked about this before .. haven't we ?

al diazgerrero: evry day we are dying a little bit

DEXTER: we I showed u that this is not correct since we are not the only creatuers who die

al diazgerrero: yes but you mentioned this

DEXTER: if we were intended to live forever in this life , then there is no need for resurruction..

DEXTER: but we were itended to live in this life for a while .. and in this life we are not judged for what we do .. and we have complete free will ..

al diazgerrero: the need of resurrection is exists because this body dies, becuase of the law of sin, and we have a promise of a new body

DEXTER: but after resurruction , the hudgement comes for our deeds . and God made sure that we have ways to wash away our sins ..

DEXTER: go ahead .. finish ur point

al diazgerrero has signed back in. (25/08/1426 08:17 م)

al diazgerrero: that is why is so important to use the free will wisely, becuase certainly we will be judged, if god did not forgive at the moment his own house -israel- becuase of their acts, then how do we expect to be forgived if we do not beleive and obey the very one that god sent to forgive us, and to clean us through his blood

DEXTER: fine .. lemmi get one thing clear

DEXTER: one thing that we agree that God does not need blood for forgivness. He does not get benefit from it nor harm .. this Blood was i am talking about was intended to be like that :

DEXTER: if someone wanted to be forgived, then the best way to do that is to do something good. in that way we wash away our sins.. this blood atonement in the Law of Moses - and we share the same thing in Islam - is to be for God , so that we spread the meat for poor ppl. and in that way we do good thing for washing a bad thing .. this is the meaning of the atonement . God is not a bloody God . He does not need anything to forgive us once we ask for it . that is not hard for Him comparing to Creating all this universe ..

DEXTER: but what happened at late times of the jews

DEXTER: that the jews who are keeping the scriptures and the heads of the temple , made the religion of moses and the atonement as trade .. and told ppl that there is no forgiveness till blood is shed .. and they made it as trade they gained lots of money from it .. and thats why Jesus alsways cursed them for that deed ..

DEXTER: they said :

DEXTER: there is no mercy till blood is shed , no matter where the meat goes .. but is the most important . now God is not a Bloody God as we said , but Jews made it a trade for their own benifits .. the wisdom of this blood atonement is that meat goes to the poor and that way sins are washed away by doing good deeds..

DEXTER: thats why Jews at that time said these things and thats why Jesus cursed them all over the four Gospels

DEXTER: they lied to ppl and told them that Blood is the most important .. and not the good deed of it

DEXTER: we - as muslims - share the same thing about this atonement .,.

DEXTER: but it is not the only way to wash sins away

DEXTER: there are countless ways to do that

DEXTER: this is the true Mercy of God ,. every act and Law is for our benifit and there is a hidden wisdom in God's Law ..

al diazgerrero: one moment

DEXTER: we in Islam have the most merciful law ever God revealed to Humanity .. and Christians call it in the Gospels: Kingdom of God that Jesus preached ..

DEXTER: go ahead .

al diazgerrero: remember when the jews left egipt

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: almost inmediately

al diazgerrero: he killed and spread the blood

al diazgerrero: on the law

al diazgerrero: and on the ppl

DEXTER: i got ur point

DEXTER: and I wanna ask back as a reference to my answer to this :

DEXTER: who wrote these events ? Did Moses right them ? no .. the Jews did .. the Pharisies who are telling ppl that God is a Bloody God and no mercy till blood is shed , , this thing is never mentioned in the Quran ,. though Moses is the most Prophet mentioned in the Quran .. so it was written my the Pharisies and not Moses , and when we see such a thing , and then we see that Jesus was cursing them all over his preching , we can realize the reason for this curse

DEXTER: Jesus was cursing them because they took the Law leterally and ignored its wisdom which is the main reason the Law was put to achieve .. the wisdom of Law and not empty acts of humans..

DEXTER: what Does it make any difference to God and to us for a Blood shed with not a single benifit to us or to God? God does not ask for empty Laws .. this is the wisdom of the blood wash ..

al diazgerrero: moses said during this act

al diazgerrero: this is our pact

DEXTER: aha

al diazgerrero: and i stopped writting because my boss called me, and i have something to do at this moment

al diazgerrero: i min pls

al diazgerrero: 1*

DEXTER: tyt

DEXTER: my friend .. take ur time and I have to leave now .it is time for me to get home.. we shall continue later .. take care .. something I wanna inform u , since u did not like the title of the book I gave u , and u never downloaded it .. this book does not speak in the words of Jesus in the way u think . it deserves to be read .. and it talks about many prophecies of Muhammad in the Bible - both OT and NT - and it gives a better study than the one i can give . I advice u take a look at that chapter in the Book . it is called: Muhammad in the Bible

DEXTER: mow take care .. i have to leave .. bubye