Response on doctrine of the Trinity:

In the name of Allah
Peace, mercy and blessings of Allah
I was read the christian doctrine (Doctrine of the Trinity), then i was examined & reading lot about this subject, then i was written a response for this lie:

Response on doctrine of the Trinity:
First: Allah is one, and christians believe this, so how became one is three?!
Second: Perfection is one of the attributes of God, and christians believed this, if Allah need to becoming another person, so he have a shortage! but Allah hasn't shortage!
Third: Allah said about himself: {he is god in the sky and he is god in the ground}, the meaning of this: he remains a god when he downing in the lowest heaven in the late night, not becoming Jesus or other.
Fourth: Can father becoming his son? if he can do that, so with christians say about Jesus: "He was put on the cross and been throwing stones and was killed", if Allah is becoming Jesus in sometimes, how he alive to this time? (He is Alive for ever), christians know: if Allah has been sleep for one second, heavens & ground will destroy, so how these are exists to this time & Allah is dead (Sanctify about this)?!
Fifth: This lie was not saying in the Bible but just in two positions in it:
First: Matthew chapter twenty-eighth: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"!!!!!
but this position it wasn't say in Catholic copy in the last age!!
Second: Book of first message of John: "who is in heaven three Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one"!!!!!
This position was not saying in the Bible but just in the arabian copy of the Bible!!! and not in the english copies!!!
Here the english and greek copies who removed the text carefully:
Complete Jewish Bible CJB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three witnesses
Holman Christian Standard Bible CSB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
The English Darby Bible DBY
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For they that bear witness are three
ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION ESV
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
GOD'S WORD translation GWN
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three witnesses
The New American Bible NAB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So there are three that testify
The NET Bible, Version 1.0 NET
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
New Jerusalem Bible NJB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So there are three witnesses
New Living Translation, second edition NLT
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So we have these three witnesses
New Revised Standard Version Bible NRS
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three that testify

Use it words in Advice, and invite to me.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

In the name of Allah
Peace, mercy and blessings of Allah
I was read the christian doctrine (Doctrine of the Trinity), then i was examined & reading lot about this subject, then i was written a response for this lie:

Response on doctrine of the Trinity:
First: Allah is one, and christians believe this, so how became one is three?!
Second: Perfection is one of the attributes of God, and christians believed this, if Allah need to becoming another person, so he have a shortage! but Allah hasn't shortage!
Third: Allah said about himself: {he is god in the sky and he is god in the ground}, the meaning of this: he remains a god when he downing in the lowest heaven in the late night, not becoming Jesus or other.
Fourth: Can father becoming his son? if he can do that, so with christians say about Jesus: "He was put on the cross and been throwing stones and was killed", if Allah is becoming Jesus in sometimes, how he alive to this time? (He is Alive for ever), christians know: if Allah has been sleep for one second, heavens & ground will destroy, so how these are exists to this time & Allah is dead (Sanctify about this)?!
Fifth: This lie was not saying in the Bible but just in two positions in it:
First: Matthew chapter twenty-eighth: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"!!!!!
but this position it wasn't say in Catholic copy in the last age!!
Second: Book of first message of John: "who is in heaven three Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one"!!!!!
This position was not saying in the Bible but just in the arabian copy of the Bible!!! and not in the english copies!!!
Here the english and greek copies who removed the text carefully:
Complete Jewish Bible CJB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three witnesses
Holman Christian Standard Bible CSB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
The English Darby Bible DBY
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For they that bear witness are three
ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION ESV
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
GOD'S WORD translation GWN
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three witnesses
The New American Bible NAB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So there are three that testify
The NET Bible, Version 1.0 NET
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 For there are three that testify
New Jerusalem Bible NJB
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So there are three witnesses
New Living Translation, second edition NLT
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 So we have these three witnesses
New Revised Standard Version Bible NRS
Acronym translator:
John 5:7 There are three that testify

Use it words in Advice, and invite to me.

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We know about those interpolations because we didn't have a Christian Uthman to burn our original copied manuscripts

Hi Burninglight, i'm sorry, but i did not understand what you mean.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Hi Burninglight, i'm sorry, but i did not understand what you mean.

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You should not use John 5:7 as proof of the trinity because it is an interpolation that is not found in the earliest of manuscripts. Christian scholars found this out many years ago because we have a wealth of manuscripts to show what was possibly interpolated later. It was widely thought.. As it showed up in some manuscripts as a note.. Possibly of explanation, in the margin.. Over time it was found to be added at the end.

This is not new stuff. The concept of the trinity in the Bible is simply a doctrine developed by years of study of the Bible as a whole. It's not Biblical, and you won't find the word "Trinity" found there. The concept, however is.

Just because you don't understand something or don't believe it doesn't make it a lie. The Trinity makes perfect sense in presenting Gods nature.... The Bible shows us YHWH is a God who seeks community with His creation... A God of love. Who demonstrated the greatest act of agape love towards us.. His sometimes undeserving creation. It may be difficult if not impossible to explain within the bounds of human logic... But that does not mean it is irrational .. But just that we do not have the capacity to know all God is.

Peace.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Hi Burninglight, i'm sorry, but i did not understand what you mean.

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No need for apologies. What I meant was you are pointing out things that were added to the Bible that were not a part of the original manuscripts and scholars agree with these interpolations and so do I. The point is when someone adds or takes away from the Bible we always can find out what has been added or taken away. And God said anyone who adds to the Bible will be punished with added plague and anyone who takes away will have taken from them their portion of the tree of life.

Muslims cannot prove wholesale corruption of the Bible nor can they prove the perfect preservation of the Quran. We know God's word was given in the torah and gospel. The only gospel we have is according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is enough and God allowed that to be what we have in possession. To these we hold fast.

Who said that?!
I can response on every words in the Bible, do you need i to do that?
We can confirmation brought by the Quran is true, do you need i to do that?
Have you read the Quran in the past?
Read the Quran then say what you said!
Mrs. Pandora, you have confirmed the Christian religion is trifling.
the God is not a love, the God is a God, if you dont know what is the God's recipes, so you shouldn't talking about God as you like!
The Trinity is false and void, if you don't believes with legitimate guides, so you should using a mental guides.
Are you understand?

اقتباس:

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Mrs. Pandora, you have confirmed the Christian religion is trifling.
the God is not a love, the God is a God, if you dont know what is the God's recipes, so you shouldn't talking about God as you like!
The Trinity is false and void, if you don't believes with legitimate guides, so you should using a mental guides.
Are you understand?

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Greetings, your post proves to me why I should not be Muslim. Maybe Allah is not love, and for sure there is little of love towards Allah in the Quran. I think you truly do believe that what you show to Allah is love but it seems to be that you measure this love by your own understanding of what you think love is... Understandable if Allah has not told you you are loved, or has not demonstrated this love towards you.. How then will you know the standard God sets for love? There are suras that show the conditional love of Allah that is more an expression of approval than love.. That Allah loves those who do good, and has no love for those who do evil. Yet, even to gain this approval you still have no guarantee. Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah? Or is this love born out of a need for Allah's approval or fear of Allah's wrath if you get it wrong?

I do not talk of God of the Bible as I like, I talk of God as He has been revealed to me in the Bible.. Through the Prophets, who spoke and demonstrated His love, and through Christ Jesus through whom we experience in part what Gods love truly means. I'm not sure why you bring in the Trinity.. Again.. It obviously bothers you.. Yet why it should concern you so as you do not believe it anyway is beyond my understanding. Although of course the Trinity does in fact demonstrate Gods love perfectly. For God, His Word and Spirit exist in a perfect community of love, we are a reflection of this. Our need to love and be loved is an intrinsic part of our being which is reflected in the trinity. How does a unitary being know love.. Let alone demonstrate it towards others?

Prophet Moses said... "What does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul". Deuteronomy 10:12

To walk in His ways... To love Him.. To serve Him with all our hearts and souls.. We can only do this because we know God is so worthy of this and more, that we are joyful to love God thus, everything we do must reflect this love.. Not to earn Gods love, because we know we already have that... But to return it in kind. Our love towards God cannot be born of our own hopes of any rewards and needs for future forgiveness.. But has to be freely given.

Jesus reaffirmed this message... "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment." Matthew 22:37-38

The second great commandment .. Was to love other as we love ourselves..



"And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love." 2 John 6

Truly faithful obedience is born of love, to follow Gods commandments out of love rather than fear.

There is nothing trifling about Gods divine love, it's because of Gods love the world turns and we live and breathe. It's because of Gods agape love for us that we shall share in the glorious community that is God for eternity. All the Prophets knew of this love that is God.. Why did Prophet Mohammed understand this most important facet of God? When I see your posts it saddens me that you don't see this most important point of how important love is to mankind.. Nothing bad can come from love.. Only good. Think on that.

Peace, blessings and love I extend to you.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Greetings, your post proves to me why I should not be Muslim. Maybe Allah is not love, and for sure there is little of love towards Allah in the Quran. I think you truly do believe that what you show to Allah is love but it seems to be that you measure this love by your own understanding of what you think love is... Understandable if Allah has not told you you are loved, or has not demonstrated this love towards you.. How then will you know the standard God sets for love? There are suras that show the conditional love of Allah that is more an expression of approval than love.. That Allah loves those who do good, and has no love for those who do evil. Yet, even to gain this approval you still have no guarantee. Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah? Or is this love born out of a need for Allah's approval or fear of Allah's wrath if you get it wrong?

I do not talk of God of the Bible as I like, I talk of God as He has been revealed to me in the Bible.. Through the Prophets, who spoke and demonstrated His love, and through Christ Jesus through whom we experience in part what Gods love truly means. I'm not sure why you bring in the Trinity.. Again.. It obviously bothers you.. Yet why it should concern you so as you do not believe it anyway is beyond my understanding. Although of course the Trinity does in fact demonstrate Gods love perfectly. For God, His Word and Spirit exist in a perfect community of love, we are a reflection of this. Our need to love and be loved is an intrinsic part of our being which is reflected in the trinity. How does a unitary being know love.. Let alone demonstrate it towards others?

Prophet Moses said... "What does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul". Deuteronomy 10:12

To walk in His ways... To love Him.. To serve Him with all our hearts and souls.. We can only do this because we know God is so worthy of this and more, that we are joyful to love God thus, everything we do must reflect this love.. Not to earn Gods love, because we know we already have that... But to return it in kind. Our love towards God cannot be born of our own hopes of any rewards and needs for future forgiveness.. But has to be freely given.

Jesus reaffirmed this message... "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment." Matthew 22:37-38

The second great commandment .. Was to love other as we love ourselves..



"And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love." 2 John 6

Truly faithful obedience is born of love, to follow Gods commandments out of love rather than fear.

There is nothing trifling about Gods divine love, it's because of Gods love the world turns and we live and breathe. It's because of Gods agape love for us that we shall share in the glorious community that is God for eternity. All the Prophets knew of this love that is God.. Why did Prophet Mohammed understand this most important facet of God? When I see your posts it saddens me that you don't see this most important point of how important love is to mankind.. Nothing bad can come from love.. Only good. Think on that.

Peace, blessings and love I extend to you.

---

Very good post here. God's Love never fails. Jesus said greater love has no man than to lay down his life for a friend. That is exactly what Jesus did for us even while we were His enemies; therefore, our God proves to us that His love for us is without condition.

Ok Mrs. Pandora:
For First Paragraph: I said: "God is not love", i mean: God isn't only love, we muslims love our god too much, and he love us, Islam is religion calls to love, but not love only, but the christian religion calls only to love and safe, but it don't said what christians will to work in they life.
For what's Allah loves: Allah loves all muslims, good man, bad man, etc... but he don't love any man from other religions, for anyone who do evil: he said: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves do not despair of the mercy of Allah that Allah forgives all sins".
For your questions: "Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah?": If we don't love Allah for his graces, we love he for his commands, but he did lot of things who make our loves he too much.
Now, if you will not think carefully, i was written this subject for muslims who talking with christians, Are you muslim? No? So exit this subject and talking with me in message or other subjects, concept? I'm ready to that.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Ok Mrs. Pandora:
For First Paragraph: I said: "God is not love", i mean: God isn't only love, we muslims love our god too much, and he love us, Islam is religion calls to love, but not love only, but the christian religion calls only to love and safe, but it don't said what christians will to work in they life.

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Then you should say what you mean. You imply that Christianity is somehow weakened by its emphasis on love, whereas the opposite is true. Love is the purest, and strongest force imaginable. Nothing can fail in love all good is born out of love.

اقتباس:

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For what's Allah loves: Allah loves all muslims, good man, bad man, etc... but he don't love any man from other religions, for anyone who do evil: he said: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves do not despair of the mercy of Allah that Allah forgives all sins".

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This is your belief... Which differs from mine. YHWH.. Loves all who submit to Him as the One True God. Because YHWH is bigger and greater than His creation.. YHWH does not need us. It is us who need YHWH... We know nothing we can do by our own efforts can make us righteous before YHWH. It is by grace alone that we be saved.

اقتباس:

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For your questions: "Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah?": If we don't love Allah for his graces, we love he for his commands, but he did lot of things who make our loves he too much.
Now, if you will not think carefully, i was written this subject for muslims who talking with christians, Are you muslim? No? So exit this subject and talking with me in message or other subjects, concept? I'm ready to that.

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Muslims talking with Christians?? I do not understand am I not a Christian? Or are you saying you would prefer me not to contribute to this dialogue? If so that is fine by me. Your wish.

peace to you.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Hi Burninglight, i'm sorry, but i did not understand what you mean.

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What I am trying to say is Jn 5:7 is old news and we know it was added to the original manuscripts by an over zealous scribe, but we wouldn't have known it if we had an Uthman like Islam had who burned all the original copies of the Quran and recompiled it after Islam's messenger's death.
Uthman use the help of text from Hafsah's copy, and after her death, her copy was destroyed. Why? So, no Muslim can now proof perfect preservation of the Quran, but the Christians didn't destroy the copies we had from the beginning, and we can compare and contrast when people put the Bible to print for correctness which is something Muslims cannot do. You only have the non prophet Uthman's recompilation of the Quran in you possession who acted as Allah's editor, IMO. I hope I have made myself clear now.

Pandora has explained to you correctly as well.

Islam is a religion were man is trying to reach God, but Christianity is about God reaching for man.

Why would your god leave you in spiritual uncertainty about your eternal destiny? No Muslim can answer this unfairness of Allah. Why would God leave Muslims in the dark about their hereafter when it is for all eternity. We know our eternal destiny God has made it clear.

Peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight

What I am trying to say is Jn 5:7 is old news and we know it was added to the original manuscripts by an over zealous scribe, but we wouldn't have known it if we had an Uthman like Islam had who burned all the original copies of the Quran and recompiled it after Islam's messenger's death.
Uthman use the help of text from Hafsah's copy, and after her death, her copy was destroyed. Why? So, no Muslim can now proof perfect preservation of the Quran, but the Christians didn't destroy the copies we had from the beginning, and we can compare and contrast when people put the Bible to print for correctness which is something Muslims cannot do. You only have the non prophet Uthman's recompilation of the Quran in you possession who acted as Allah's editor, IMO. I hope I have made myself clear now.

Pandora has explained to you correctly as well.

Islam is a religion were man is trying to reach God, but Christianity is about God reaching for man.

Why would your god leave you in spiritual uncertainty about your eternal destiny? No Muslim can answer this unfairness of Allah. Why would God leave Muslims in the dark about their hereafter when it is for all eternity. We know our eternal destiny God has made it clear.

Peace

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Burning Light: If you don't know anything about ISLAMIC History, so don't say anything for defiance about your religion, Usman bin Affan was burn the false copies of Quran, not true copies, Companions saved the true copy, but one of they, was copy the Quran lot of false copies, then Usman bin Affan check about those, then he was find an error in those copies, then he was gone to burn those, then he was copy the true copy of Quran lot of copies, so Quran now is really true, if you read Quran, you will make sure about Quran.
But the bible now is "really distorted", if you was read it carefully, you will make sure it was distorted!
If you want to guides from me, tell me and i'll say to you.

Pandora: Can you understand my words before write response about it?Your response haven't link by my words absolutely! or my english language is bad because i'm arabian.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Pandora: Can you understand my words before write response about it?Your response haven't link by my words absolutely! or my english language is bad because i'm arabian.

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I confess I found your post difficult to read and as a consequence may have misunderstood the meaning of your post. I'm sure your English language is better than my Arabic.

peace to you

اقتباس:

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Use it words in Advice, and invite to me.

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are you wishing for Christians to prove to you the trinity? There are many threads on here that deal with this topic already.. I am not sure it is possible to explain this doctrine to muslims because they are handicapped by their very narrow understanding of God. IMHO I do not see Islam shows the nature of God in any meaningful way we can understand... And as love does not figure very highly as one of the attributes of Allah then this also puts you at a disadvantage. As I said before it comes down to love.. Which Christians see as the main force of God, because through love everything is made. That's why the trinity doctrine makes sense to Christians but not to muslims who see Allah as a unitary being. A unitary being cannot know or demonstrate love.

If there is a particular aspect you feel has not been addressed before then I will attempt to make it clearer for you. The trinity doctrine is not biblical, neither is it a lie... And simply because you do not understand the concept does not make it a lie. You raised many points in your original post, maybe you could choose one to start with that causes you the most problem and I shall attempt to explain it for you. Personally.. I don't see the trinity is any kind of issue to get tied up in knots about. It's basically a doctrine men have arrived at after centuries of scriptural studies in order to explain the nature of God, the better for mans understanding. We can never know all there is to God, for God is a mystery and mankind has not been granted the ability to fully understand His nature. We can only hope to understand what God has chosen to reveal to us through His Word.. That is Jesus.. And His Prophets.

Peace to you.

Pandora: Are you thought you proved to me the triad is true thing? your words weren't proved to me that! i was read your response carefully then i wasn't find anything convincing!But you was proved to me that triad is false, and your words about Allah are contrary to fact about him!

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Pandora: Are you thought you proved to me the triad is true thing? your words weren't proved to me that! i was read your response carefully then i wasn't find anything convincing!But you was proved to me that triad is false, and your words about Allah are contrary to fact about him!

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I was not attempting to prove anything to you about the trinity. I asked if there was a particular area of this doctrine you were concerned with out of the many points you raised in your first post. I would try and explain it for you. Really you don't need to concern yourself with the trinity at all. As I said it is not Biblical.

I have not proved anything to you in regards to the trinity because I have not discussed it with you. I do not need to convince you of anything. I can only explain things from my perspective to allow you to understand why the doctrine of the trinity makes sense when it comes to the understanding in ..small way.. The nature of God. Based on what God has revealed of Himself to us in the Bible.

if you cannot see the same force of love in Allah as in YHWH... then you are not worshipping the same God as the Jews and the Christians worship.. YHWH .. The God of Abraham and all the prophets. I guess it's easier for Christians to accept such as we have no problem believing that with God nothing is impossible. God exists outside our sphere of human understanding but the Bible gives an understanding how God seeks us, loves us and cares for us.. And through the greatest act of agape love has shown us through His Word Jesus a way to be small part of His glory for eternity.

If you feel you have that in Islam then that's fine and good... And I really don't know why you wish to have the trinity explained to you.

Peace to you.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Pandora: Are you thought you proved to me the triad is true thing? your words weren't proved to me that! i was read your response carefully then i wasn't find anything convincing!But you was proved to me that triad is false, and your words about Allah are contrary to fact about him!

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Your comment shows that the only reason you are against the tri unity of God is because Islam speaks against a misconception it has of the trinity. As much as we cannot explain God's nature or tri unity to you or anyone is as much as you cannot explain why you don't accept the concept. You are rejecting the concept based solely on your god and prophet's misconception of the trinity. IOW, it doesn't matter how good of an explanation you receive as long as you are looking through the lens of Islam you will not see.

Grace and Truth

Ok Burninglight and Pandra: If you don't know: you should use ("EVIDENCE") to confirm an thing, if you don't use any evidence on the trinity, Pandora was say anything to escape this subject, and Burninglight was say bad words on my prophet (peace be apoun him) without reason.
Pandora: Say anything, but i will not read.
Burninglight: because what you was say bad words on prophet muhammed? are you thought you will shush me by bad words? you was confirmed the christian religion is religion of urge and inconsistent with morales, if any muslim was say bad word on anything in christian religion, he will say why he did that, but the christians heat Islamic religion too muchand they hadn't "أخلاق".

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

Ok Burninglight and Pandra: If you don't know: you should use ("EVIDENCE") to confirm an thing, if you don't use any evidence on the trinity, Pandora was say anything to escape this subject, and Burninglight was say bad words on my prophet (peace be apoun him) without reason.
Pandora: Say anything, but i will not read.
Burninglight: because what you was say bad words on prophet muhammed? are you thought you will shush me by bad words? you was confirmed the christian religion is religion of urge and inconsistent with morales, if any muslim was say bad word on anything in christian religion, he will say why he did that, but the christians heat Islamic religion too muchand they hadn't "أخلاق".

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What do you mean by evidence? Do you want me to post a number of Bible verses in support of the Trinity? To what purpose..? If I asked you to give me evidence that God was a unitary being as the Quran implies by the concept of tawheed how would you offer me evidence of that fact? Would you quote verses from the Quran in support of this doctrine? Don't you see that in itself is not "evidence" of an independent nature. I was seeking to explain to you in fairly simple terms how Christians view the trinity and why it makes more sense than God being a unitary being. It has nothing to do with the ONENESS of God.. God is and always has been ONE. That ONENESS has not been affected by the concept of trinity.. I cannot explain your misconceptions you hold about the trinity and no matter how much I say or what evidence I bring from the Bible that the trinity is nothing like the Quran claims it to be will not help you. These misconceptions are your own.

But I guess you've not read this anyway as you have already decided that I have nothing to say of any value.. Maybe you are a misogynist at heart I do not know your reasons. No matter. I wish you well and will pray for God to guide you to His light and truth.

Peace.

What" bad words" have I said about or on your prophet in this forum? If you cannot proof this, you are falsely accusing me. I am not trying to hush you either. In fact, there is not enough dialogue on this forum for me. Most of my post go unchallenged, and it is too slow waiting for my post to meet moderator's approval and sometimes they don't post all of what I write.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

What do you mean by evidence? Do you want me to post a number of Bible verses in support of the Trinity? To what purpose..? If I asked you to give me evidence that God was a unitary being as the Quran implies by the concept of tawheed how would you offer me evidence of that fact? Would you quote verses from the Quran in support of this doctrine? Don't you see that in itself is not "evidence" of an independent nature. I was seeking to explain to you in fairly simple terms how Christians view the trinity and why it makes more sense than God being a unitary being. It has nothing to do with the ONENESS of God.. God is and always has been ONE. That ONENESS has not been affected by the concept of trinity.. I cannot explain your misconceptions you hold about the trinity and no matter how much I say or what evidence I bring from the Bible that the trinity is nothing like the Quran claims it to be will not help you. These misconceptions are your own.

But I guess you've not read this anyway as you have already decided that I have nothing to say of any value.. Maybe you are a misogynist at heart I do not know your reasons. No matter. I wish you well and will pray for God to guide you to His light and truth.

Peace.

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No, Mrs. Pandora! How can you give me evidence from the bible? i don't believe it! How i can give you evidence from the Quran? you don't believe it!
So: There was only one thing, it's "Evidence from mind", ok? i want you to give me evidence from mind, and you can compare the Quranic verses with Bible verses, to we looking which is more deserving be followed, in short: we should make a debate.
do you want to start?

So, you don't believe in the torah and gospel your god said he sent down? Your prophet did and used the torah to judge a woman caught in adultery. Do you know something that Islam's prophet didn't know about the Scriptures that came before? Can you show me where it says you shouldn't believe in the torah or gospel. The Scriptures we received tell us to reject Islam's message, but can you show me where it states in the Quran that you should reject the Scriptures that came before? If not, you have no justification for your words, but we do!
Peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مصطفى الحداد (محارب النصارى)

No, Mrs. Pandora! How can you give me evidence from the bible? i don't believe it! How i can give you evidence from the Quran? you don't believe it!
So: There was only one thing, it's "Evidence from mind", ok? i want you to give me evidence from mind, and you can compare the Quranic verses with Bible verses, to we looking which is more deserving be followed, in short: we should make a debate.
do you want to start?

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Very well Sir.. Do you have a particular verse you would like to compare.. What about ...

Deuteronomy 19:21 (ESV)
21 Your eye shall not pity. It shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Matthew 5:38–48 (ESV)
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,...

From your other post I have the impression that you feel under Islam you are justified in personally taking revenge in kind for a wrong done against your person. Do you not see this is not Gods way? Ask yourself in truth where does an act of revenge take you? Is it not the more noble way to forgive ones enemy? Someone hurts you.. You hurt them back.. Their family become involved in the hurting so your family come to your aid and continue the hurting... And so it goes on. Until there is so much hurt the original cause is forgotten so intent has everyone become in the need for revenge. I will explain what Christians take from the "eye for an eye message.. Of course not all people are able to see the simplicity and need for forgiveness of ones enemies and how it brings one closer in relationship to God, because if God has forgiveness enough for all those who wrong Him and repent then should not we emulate this most noble of behaviours? We see Jesus in Matthew was correcting the Pharisees who had taken the law God had given them and abused its purpose.. Hence Jesus says.. "You heard it said" ( referring to the law as it was originally given) then he said "but I say to you" meaning he was correcting the errors man had allowed to creep into the principle of this law.

"Eye for eye, tooth for tooth" was spoken by God as a figurative command in the Old Testament .. See Deuteronomy verse above ... It was never intended to be taken literally. Instead, it means that secular justice is to be fair, neither excessively harsh nor excessively lenient. Also, before God first spoke this, He established a judicial system to hear claims and determine penalties, and that system would not have been necessary if simple "eye for eye" retribution were proper and adequate. Moreover, most actual claims and harms in the Old Testament, except those requiring capital punishment, were settled by payment in goods.


The three times in the Old Testament where the phrase "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"is mentioned all relate to a civil situation, something being judged before a constituted authority... a judge, a magistrate, etc. "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" is not a statement that is in any way related to personal relationships. However, that’s precisely what the Pharisees had done with it. They took a divine principle for the courts, and they made it a matter of daily vendettas.


In knowing the hearts of the Pharisees, Jesus turned this phrase completely around. Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-48.."You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you…" Here Jesus was giving a new command that made perfect the Old Testament law. We are not to seek retribution, not to demand recompense for wrongs done to us. Jesus taught that as His followers we are to ignore all personal insults, which is the meaning of turning the other cheek. Christians are to give more of material goods, time, or labor than demanded of us, even if the demands are wrongful.. to loan to those who want to borrow... to love our enemies... and to pray for those who persecute us.


The basis for this radically different way of dealing with one another underscores the radically different lifestyle of the true follower of Christ. But this is in no way to be taken as prohibiting self-defense or protecting someone from being harmed by others. The rights of police officers and the military to protect the innocent and preserve the peace are not in question here. Turning the other cheek applies to personal relationships and involves primarily not seeking to defend ourselves against personal insults. Not to take the Law into our own hands in the name of personal revenge.


Accept my apologies if this post is long, and I hope you can understand what I say here..

Peace upon you.

Jesus knew that an eye for an eye would make the world blind. Those that adhere to an eye for an eye are blind, because they don't know Jesus and cannot see who God is.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight

Jesus knew that an eye for an eye would make the world blind. Those that adhere to an eye for an eye are blind, because they don't know Jesus and cannot see who God is.

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People become trapped in a vicious circle of revenge. It's evident if one looks at the state of turmoil in many parts of the world where vengeance plays a part indiscriminate violence is not far behind. Neither are pleasing to God. There is one who revels in such discord and hatred... We know who that is and is the enemy of God and all that is truth.

blessings upon you.. BL