Tawhid in the Holy Bible and Islam

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Brothers, we christians believe in ONE Allah. But He is NOT iIslamic allah. Our God is TRI-UNITED. Allahu Wahid. Hua Babba Allah wa Ibn Allah wa Ruh Al Qudus.

Why do we believe that Ibn Allah are equal to His Father?

My brother Sazie Johnson said:
This is a challenge from me (Sazie Johnson) to all Muslims in this forum. After this you may never want to speak to me again.
At the heart of Christianity is the Holy Trinity which you continuously challenge. At the heart of Islam is the “oneness of Allah which I am now challenging. If you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah”.
Quran 112 reads, “Say: He is Allah, the One and Only. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.”
First we must know that Science has dealt a damaging blow to Islam. The “Oneness of Allah” is at stake here; so too is the “Oneness of the earth”.
Science has made it cleared that because something or someone is a numerical one, it does not mean that it does not have multiplicity or plurality within itself. To proof this assumption, Science says this about earth: “She is one and only. She does not beget the likeness of herself. There is none elsewhere like her.”
While those words are also spoken about Allah, here Science, after much studies and observations, has attributed the same words and thoughts to earth: The earth is one, unique, incompatible, source and sustainer of life in our Solar System. That is not the only similarities between Allah and the earth. Allah has a mind to think and to reason, earth has the artificial intelligence to grow what it may in certain areas and to kill what it may in certain areas. That is why in all the ways that might be imagine, Allah and the earth are “totally alone” in their spheres of influence.
But the earth, with all its minerals and chemical compositions, is not “totally alone” within itself. In fact even though earth is one, unique, incompatible, source and sustainer of life in our Solar System, earth has multiplicity or plurality within itself. It has rivers which are not the same as trees. But yet earth is one and is not comparable to anything we know of just as Allah is one and is not comparable to anything we know of. The two are the same in their total aloneness.
Here is the challange: Can you separate the “Oneness of Allah” from the “Oneness of earth” with and by illustrations? Can you show us something that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?
To help you understand the question, here are some examples of trinity: Pure Light is an example of a trinity. It is made of green, red, and yellow lights. Atom is an example of a trinity. It is made of three sub-atomic particles: Protons, electrons, and neutrons. Time is an example of a trinity: It is expressed in past, present, and future. Matter is an example of a trinity. It reveals itself in solid, liquid, and gas.
Question: What do you mean by “Total Oneness of Allah”? Give examples in nature in the same way there are examples of the Holy Trinity in nature.

Oh, I almost forget. If you are incapable of answering the challenge, feel free to respond by insulting me —telling me how I am stupid and how I am going to hell; or better yet, tell me Allah is the creator of earth. And I will tell you this: “According to science earth creates new fungi and alga daily.”
Again, the question is this: What do you mean by “Total Oneness of Allah”? Give examples in nature in the same way there are examples of the Holy Trinity in nature.
It you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah”. Oh, like I said, feel free to respond by insulting me.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Brothers, I offer you to read my conversation with Kamal and Walid on the Trinity issue:

‘Trinity’or in other words TRI-UNITY is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. How is it possible? Yes, it is possible because God is NOT a human being. He is the supreme Being. Even Arab nation is one but you Kamal is an Arab and your son is an Arab and your father is also son of an Arab man. But the Arab nation is ONE. Because you all are united by common features and origin. There is no such word ‘trinity’ in the Bible but there is the concept represented by the word “Trinity”in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun “Elohim” is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word “Elohim” and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. The Hebrew word for “God,” “Elohim,” definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus’ baptism. During the baptism of Jesus the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17 ). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit! Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe. Yes, Kamal, Jesus is Kalimat-ullah and He created the universe and people! (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God! The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. But the picture is not entirely accurate because an infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

Kamal, look what Jesus said: (John 10:30)

I (Jesus) and the Father are one.”

Walid Saifaddin Ashoor said:

The question that raises itself is: You have 3 Gods, yet your Gods refer to themselves as “I” and not “We”, and then when you add the virgin Mary you now have Four Gods, yet still I and not WE. In addition, you now have 3 Gods that are HE and one God that is SHE, yet still I and not We. So Four Gods, yet still I, but what kind of I ? An I that is 3 He’s + 1 She?


– We do believe that God is ONE. He is tri-united and acting in UNITY. But why? Because God REVEALED us that on the pages of His Holy Scripture! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God! But we do not worship mother of Jesus Mary, because if we would do it, it would be considered by God as an idol worship and sin. She is just woman and NOT God!

Who is Ibn Allah?

Al Qur'an and the Holy Bible said that He is the Word of God- Kalimat-Ullah. Let's read about Him:

ﻳﻮﺣﻨﺎ 1

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ، وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللهِ. وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهُ .

2 هُوَ كَانَ فِي الْبَدْءِ عِنْدَ اللهِ.

3 بِهِ تَكَوَّنَ كُلُّ شَيْءٍ، وَبِغَيْرِهِ لَمْ يَتَكَوَّنْ أَيُّ شَيْءٍ مِمَّا تَكَوَّنَ.

4 فِيهِ كَانَتِ الْحَيَاةُ. وَالْحَيَاةُ هَذِهِ كَانَتِ نُورَ النَّاسِ.

5 وَالنُّورُ يُضِيءُ فِي الظَّلاَمِ، وَالظَّلاَمُ لَمْ يُدْرِكْ النُّورَ.
14 وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ بَشَراً، وَخَيَّمَ بَيْنَنَا، وَنَحْنُ رَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ، مَجْدَ ابْنٍ وَحِيدٍ عِنْدَ الآبِ، وَهُوَ مُمْتَلِىءٌ بِالنِّعْمَةِ وَالْحَقِّ.

It means that Ibn Allah was incarnated in the human body but He lived always with His Father and He created all visible and invisible worlds.
It means He is the Creator of everything...all stars and planets and even people!

http://mycommandmets4.files.wordpres...pg?w=477&h=364

اقتباس:

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we christians believe in ONE Allah. But He is NOT iIslamic allah.

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اقتباس:

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Our God is TRI-UNITED

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اقتباس:

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I use the word Allah in Arabic as an equivalent of the word God.

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:p018:

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اقتباس:

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we christians believe in ONE Allah

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اقتباس:

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Why do we believe that Ibn Allah are equal to His Father ?

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Ibn Allah+His Father=2 :p015: :p012:

:p018:


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بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿112/1﴾ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿112/2﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿112/3﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ ﴿112/4﴾

عندما تتكلمي عن القرآن تكلمي بالعربية لأن لغات العالم غير قادرة على استيعاب اللغة العربية لأنها أكبر وأعظم لغات العالم .

there is a big different between

واحد :::: و :::: أحد

واحد : تعني واحد بلا ثاني

أحد : تعني واحد بلا تعدد .. فلا هو "كل" ولا هو "كلي"

اقتباس:

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At the heart of Islam is the “oneness of Allah which I am now challenging.

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so u not believe allah one :p018:

earth must contain sand + water + ...... etc to be earth
but allah never need thing to be allah

اقتباس:

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To help you understand the question, here are some examples of trinity: Pure Light is an example of a trinity. It is made of green, red, and yellow lights. Atom is an example of a trinity. It is made of three sub-atomic particles: Protons, electrons, and neutrons. Time is an example of a trinity: It is expressed in past, present, and future. Matter is an example of a trinity. It reveals itself in solid, liquid, and gas.

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and also the Cow has three words is an example of a trinity
and also 2+1=3 is an example of a trinity

and 3x1=3 is an example of a trinity

and 4-1=3 is an example of a trinity

and also shampoo 3x1 is an example of a trinity

:p018:

So , u believe that your god must be like Atom or eny thing else .... very good , congratulation

look to the upper side of this photo, inside adds-ababa church draw your three gods of christian

http://mycommandmets4.files.wordpres...inity-icon.jpg

also see trinity in phillippines church

http://mycommandmets4.files.wordpres...d988d8ab01.jpg

so u believe that the three person is one

:p018:

انا لا اعلم ما المشكلة عند المسلمين بالثالوث

اولا نحن لا نؤمن بثلاثة الهة بل نحن موحدين

وانتم عندكم 99 اسما لله هل يعني انكم تعبدون 99 اله؟!؟

ونحن ببساطة نقول نقول ان الله هو واحد لا شريك له لكنه ظهر لنا بصورة يسوع وبصورة الروح القدس هل هناك اي تعقيد في ذلك

اظن انكم انتم من تعقدون هذا الموضوع ولكنه غير معقد البته مع احترامي

اقتباس:

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Brothers, we christians believe in ONE AllahThis shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit!Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God).

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:SMILS34:

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Brothers, we Christians believe in ONE God. But He is tri-united.
Let me repeat: Allahu Wahid. Hua Babba Allah wa Ibn Allah wa Ruh Al Qudus.
Ibn Allah is Equal to the Father and Ruh Al Qudus!
How to understand it?
The formula should be such: 1x1x1=1
Allahu Wahid.
God created people in His Image sayds the Holy Taurat/Torah!
That’s why I am Bahira and ana wahid! But I am NOT wahid! Why? Because I am THREE ( I am body, soul and spirit). When my body will die, my soul will not die and it will be judged by Jesus. Do you know that Islam say that Jesus is the Judge?
If I am not only body, why I am going in UNITY to the shop to buy bread? Why my soul does not sleep at hope but crosses the street to get to the shop too! But even in shop my soul is with my body? Where is my soul? My souls dwells in my body! Is my soul my body? No!!!
The same way God is ONE. God the Father is equal to Ibn Allah but they Ibn Allah is God and His Father is God (like my soul and my body are separate and at the same time united).
Jesus lived in the body on earth? But was He body? No. He dwelled in the body like my soul is dwelling in my body. But who is He? He is Ibn Allah who created the universe and everything. He is Kalimat-Ullah and He dwelled in the body. Was He body? No. Hua Allah. His nature/essence is divine! He is Immortal and almighty Creator of EVERYTHING.

Why did He dwell in the body on earth? To be killed willingly and accept all our sins to His HOLY body to make us FREE of our sins/holy people. He suffered instead of us to give us eternal life. Because God said that punishment for sin is DEATH. And He was judged by His Father for millions of our crimes/sins He accepted to His body on the cross.
He is our Allah who will judge all of us soon. Be ready!



Bahira

اقتباس:

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There is SUBORDINATION within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the "Son" is SUBORDINATE to the "Father".Ibn Allah is Equal to the Father and Ruh Al Qudus

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AMAZING

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة m.n

AMAZING

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Can't understand ?!, It's simple and logic. :p016:

اقتباس:

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Can't understand ?!, It's simple and logic.

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SORRY DEAR BROTHER FORGIVE MY POOR "ISLAMIC" MIND WHICH IS UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND SUCH THEORIES

:p018:

Salam brothers and Muhammad,

Why Ibn Allah is equal to Allah? Because they have divine nature/essense.

Bahira

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Like I said, “If you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah”.



It does not matter whether you are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim. It does not even matter whether you are an atheist. There is one thing we all agree upon. Truth is absolute. In fact Enver Khorasanee, a Muslim in this forum, said this about absolute: “You come to an absolute by testing, testing, and testing.”Her statement corresponds with the definition of “Absolute Truth”.



Absolute truth is defined as that which matches reality or that which corresponds to its object. If all people (Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists) agree that “Absolute truth is that which matches reality,” then the Holy Trinity matches reality, because of its many realities in nature such as pure light that is made of green, red, and yellow lights or the Atom that is made of three sub-atomic particles: Protons, electrons, and neutrons.



You must show us the absolute reality of Allah in terms of his “total aloneness with and within himself” by matching him with that which is real, because absolute truth, according to all peoples, must match reality. In other words absolute truth must match that which exists in nature as a real thing.



Like I said, “If you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah” by showing illustrations. It does not exist. It is not real. It is not an absolute truth. There is no such thing as the “Total aloneness of Allah with and within himself”.



God is one — a whole. But He is a plural within Himself. Walid Ashoor explains it perfectly by sending us the following which says, “God is a family within Himself.” His explanating matches reality — a reality in nature.



Listen to Walid Ashoor, a Muslims, explained how God is a “uni-plural” which means a “One with many within”: “The English word for God here comes from the Hebrew word elohiym {el-o-heem'}. This is not a singular noun, it is a plural noun. Strong's Concordance notes that elohiym is the plural of elowahh [GOD]. This is why God says "us" later in Genesis. God refers to God in the plural. Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: … KJV. The Hebrew word elohiym is a uni-plural noun. Examples of English uni-plural nouns would be group, church or family. In one family, there is more than one member.”



You are right, Walid. You are absolute right. God is a unit-plural which means “a one with many within”. That is the one that matches reality. That is the one that matches absolute truth, because an absolute truth is that which matches reality or something that is real.



If you think the “Total aloneness of Allah with and within himself” is real, then match him with reality — something in nature that exists. It is at this point a Muslim may say, “I do not want to be a part of this discussion.”

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Hello Muslims,



Here is the challenge: Can you separate the “Oneness of Allah” from the “Oneness of earth” with and by illustrations? Can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?



Ahmed El Abd wrote: “There is no challenge in what you have sent Sazie as you still and repeatedly insisting to deal with God With a human brain and human science logics.”





That is sad, Ahmed — very sad; because had God not intended to be fully known by man, He would not have revealed Himself to man as comprehensively as He did.





Walid wrote: “I read Sazies challenge, and i think all what he is saying is that Trinity is a fact. Actually his challenge is not a challenge, simply because you can not compare the Creator with the created…”





That is also sad, Walid — very sad; because you missed the point. There are many things that are one. But they all have multiplicity or plurality within. So to say that Muhammad’s god is one does not really mean much unless you can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?



If we must replace the Holy Trinity with the “total aloneness of Allah”, then you must explain the “total alones of Allah” by giving us illustrations in the same wey we have given you illustrations of the Holy Trinity.




Again, can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?

LETS CONSIDER THE EXAMPLES YOU GAVE ABOUT TRINITY

اقتباس:

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pure light that is made of green, red, and yellow lights

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FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE PURE LIGHT CONSISITS OF SEVEN COMPONENTS NOT OF THREE AS YOU THINK

اقتباس:

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the Atom that is made of three sub-atomic particles: Protons, electrons, and neutrons

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YOU ALSO FORGOT THAT THE ATOM CONTAINS NUCLEI

اقتباس:

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So to say that Muhammad’s god is one does not really mean much unless you can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?

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VERY STRANGE THEORY
IT MEANS THAT IF I GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING IN THE NATURE THAT CONSISTS OF MORE THAN THREE COMPONENTS THAT GOD CONSISTS OF MORE THAN THREE PERSONS

YOU ALWAYS MENTION THAT YOU ARE THREE--->BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT
THE POINT HERE IS THAT YOUR SUPPOSED THREE COMPONENTS CAN NEVER BE SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER
BUT YOU CAN OBSERVE THAT JESUS WAS ON EARTH AND THE FATHER WAS IN HEAVENS--->SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER
SO YOUR EXAMPLE IS WRONG

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Responds for Wilad and Admed El Abd



Hello Wilad,



You asked: “Before God created the Universe, or even thought of creating anything at all what so ever, wasn't He alone?”



The answer is “Yes”, God was along. In fact God has always been along. But God has three “Natures” within Him: (1) The Nature of a Father — God is the Father to all creation, (2) the Nature of a Word —God creates through His Word, and (3) the Nature of a Spirit (Life) — God breathed His Spirit (Life) into things and they live, or they become alive.



No one in his right mind can deny that (1) God is the Father of creation; (2) God creates by speaking Word as in “Be” or “Let there be…” and it is done, and (3) God breathes His Spirit (Life) into dead things and they live.



Now back to your question: Before God created the universe, He had within Himself these three Natures: (1) the Nature of a Father, (2) the Nature of a Word, and (3) the Nature of a Spirit (Life). God has always had The three Natures within Himself.



However, one of God’s Natures called “Word” or “Word of God” clothed Himself in human skin and lived among men.



Hello Admed,



In respond to why Muhammad’s god reveals himself as “we”, you wrote this: “Also addressing the we in this case may describe that high ranked and Those obedient servants assisting him in doing things.”



Are you saying Muhammad’s god takes into account his obedient servants when he says of himself “we”? Do you see how your religion is screwed up? Quran 112 — none is added to him. How then does he take into account his obedient servants when he says of himself “we”?

اقتباس:

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No one in his right mind can deny that (1) God is the Father of creation; (2) God creates by speaking Word as in “Be” or “Let there be…” and it is done, and (3) God breathes His Spirit (Life) into dead things and they live.

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GOD IS THE GOD OF CREATION
CREATION BY HIS WORD IS ONE OF HIS CHARACTERS
BREATHING HIS SPIRIT INTO DEAD THINGS TO GIVE THEM LIFE IS A PART OF CREATION
THESE AREN'T THREE MEMBERS, JUST ONE GOD HAVING HIS OWN CHARACTERS

اقتباس:

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In respond to why Muhammad’s god reveals himself as “we”,

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USING THE WORD "WE" BY A SINGLE ONE REFERS TO THE GREATNESS--->THAT IS WHAT MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

In the Holy Scripture Taurat God said that the Spirit of God was in the beginning too.
Let's read about it today:

Brothers,
Lets’ consider today the history of creation of the universe and our planet earth.
Let’s read the Holy Scripture called Taurat/Torah:
Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
- THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM! THERE WAS DARKNESS AND WATER.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
-- GOD CREATED A SOURCE OF LIGHT.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
- GOD MADE FIRMAMENT/ATMOSPHERE ON OUR PLANET ANDTHIS FIRMAMANT WAS CALLED HEAVEN.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
What do we see here?
In the beginning we see that:
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
God said here that He created in the beginning the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form. There was darkness and on earth was water!
The Holy Spirit was hovering over the waters.
We will consider today how it is possible that water was on earth and earth was actually water.
But first let’s read this verse:
2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
We see here that really the earth was formed out of water and by water (the day 2)!!!
How is it possible?
We will consider it today.
Just note that the LIGHT was listed as appearing on day 1, but its source was NOT the sun and stars! They did not appear until day 4! It means that God created another source of LIGHT! According to God’s Word, the Bible, the sun did not always light the earth. It wasn’t made till Day 4 of Creation Week, while the earth was created on Day 1.
In the verse 6 we read: Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters.
Summary:
Day 1: God commanded the presence of light and its separation from darkness.
Day 2: God separated the sky and water.
Day 3: God separated land from the oceans; spreading of plants and grass and trees across the land
Day 4: God created the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5: God ordered the sea to "teem with living creatures" and birds to fly in the air.
Day 6: God ordered the land to produce land animals. God created humans, "someone like Ourselves"
Day 7: God rested.
But how is it possible that earth was without form and water?
When the light had been separated from the darkness,
and day and night had been created, the Creator divided the chaotic mass of waters through the formation of the firmament, which was placed as a wall of separation in the midst of the waters, and divided them into upper and lower waters.
So, for the first three days of existence, the earth was lit by the LIGHT created on Day 1.
What is the Day 1….?
The day/night cycle was caused by the earth’s rotation relative to this directional LIGHT source. Brothers, God created LIGHT before the creation of the sun or any stars and soon we- Christians- will dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven where there is ONE light- Our God! God is going to take us to such world. And in the New Jerusalem, there will also be no need for the sun, because God will provide the light once again. Let’s read about it: (Revelation 21:23):
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb(Jesus) is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
So, God has provided for us a with LIGHT in the beginning and at the end.
On the fourth day of Creation Week, God made the sun, the moon, the planets, and all the stars—billions of them! He just commanded them to come into being, and they did.
How awesome is the power of God!
But is it really possible?
What does the science say?
Stars are mainly composed of hydrogen in its plasma state.
Hydrogen gas was a discrete substance, and that it produces water when burned, a property which later gave it its name, which in Greek means "water-former." At standard temperature and pressure, hydrogen is highly combustible gas with the molecular formula H2.
So, hydrogen is a compound material of all stars and planets and it can be in the form of gas, liquid and metal. Hydrogen composes about 75% of the mass of the sun, but only a tiny fraction of the earth.
When the universe was formed, the resulting elemental matter was about three quarters hydrogen, one quarter helium, and a few parts-per-billion of lithium (by weight).
Most of the hydrogen and helium in the Universe were created in the moments after the 'Big Bang'. Heavier elements came later.
Most of hydrogen is still around in the universe, and it is the elemental matter of the Universe which is primarily in the form of clouds of gas and stars.
So, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the known universe. Helium is second. Oxygen has rank 3. Stars burn hydrogen. It is converted into elements such as carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and iron.
So, brothers, remember that the word hydrogen comes from the Greek language and it means "water-former." Water is made from hydrogen and oxygen and water is formed when hydrogen is burned by oxygen.
Water is a chemical substance with the chemical formula H2O. Its molecule contains one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms connected by covalent bonds. Water covers 70.9% of the earth's surface. Water is even under earth’s surface. And water is a component of stars and planets. Water has been detected in interstellar clouds within our galaxy, the Milky Way. Water exists in abundance in other galaxies, too, because its components, hydrogen and oxygen, are among the most abundant elements in the universe.
But how this water could be produced in the universe?
As a result of chemical reactions when hydrogen gas is burnt.
Much of the universe's water is produced as a byproduct of star formation.
When stars are born, their birth is accompanied by a strong outward wind of gas, and dust. When this outflow of material eventually impacts the surrounding gas, the shock waves that are created compress and heat the gas. The water observed is quickly produced in this warm dense gas.

Brothers, also note that interstellar clouds condense into solar nebulae and solar systems such as ours. Scientists are sure that our Solar System was produced of the same gas. It means that all stars and planets in this system were produced at the same time from the same gas! (It proves that stars were created on the Day 4). So, the Solar System consists of the Sun and the astronomical objects bound to it by gravity, all of which formed from the collapse of a giant molecular cloud of gas.
Brothers, all stars form from clouds of gas and dust condensing in deep space. Also note that the centre/core of any star and planet is hydrogen in liquid and metal form. Stars and planets spend most of their lives on the main sequence, in the core-hydrogen-burning phase (hydrogen is converted to helium), fusing hydrogen into helium at their centers. Pressures and the temperature are sufficient to ignite nuclear fusion, converting atoms of hydrogen into helium, and releasing a tremendous amount of heat like what we see on the sun or in the core of our planet.
Summary: The Holy Scripture told us how God created the universe. Of course we do not know everything except what God says and we accept that. Science studies God’s creation. But His creation was described by God Himself on the pages of His Holy Scripture called the Bible. If we need any questions, we need to study science and if we do not know some answers, then we are going to ask God Himself any questions we might have when we will meet Him personally.....It will be SOON….He is coming back to His earth created by Him. And His name is Ibn Allah/the Son of God Jesus. He is the Creator of the universe and people. He is coming back to JUDGE us. Be ready because He NEVER was in Islam!

hahahahahahahaha
you are very weak
why you speak english when you acan speak arabic ?
i think you have Free time and u want to spend it her
or you are a fool
plz if u want to have a dialouge you re welcome
but there are 2 conditions
first speak arabic to make every body understand
second
when you quote from our Book quote correct
and write the name of surah not the num
what is your decision?

Salam brother, if you want you can speak in Arabic. But I will give you my responses in English.

About Tawhid in the Holy Bible: please listen to conversation of my friend with a Muslim:

Hello Dr. Muhammad Madian,

This is your question: “WHICH GOD THAT WILL BE THE FATHER OR THE SON????? ONE ISSUE AND ONE ISSUE ONLY IS TO BE RESOLVED !!!!! WHO IS THE TRUE GOD IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT DESERVES TO BE WORSHIPPED ???????”

Let me explain it this way: A woman goes to the market and buys a basket. She buys a apple and puts it in the basket. She also buys an orange and puts it in the basket. But that is not all. She also buys a pear and puts it in the basket. As she goes home, she puts the basket on her head and walks the streets.

Here is the question: How many basket is on the woman’s head? Some will say because the woman has three different kind of fruits in the basket that means the woman has three baskets on her head.

Dr. Muhammad Madian, do you believe the woman has three baskets on her head? Of course not. The woman has only one basket on her head, and within this one basket are three fruits: (1), apple, (2) orange, and (3) pear.

Dr. Muhammad Madian, the basket is what we called God. Just as the basket has three fruits within, God has three Natures within. Just as you will not say, “The woman has three baskets on her head,” we do not say we have three gods

i dont need to read that
I can create a story like that
ok I agree about the first condition
what about the second ?
i am waiting
and u can choose the subject

Salam brother, ok I will quote Suras of Qur'an in Arabic as you asked me.

What this poor banned poster was trying to say is the trinity cannot be explained, but it is easier to explain than the oneness of Allah. The banned poster didn't mention that one person can be a father, son and husband, does that change him from being one person? Can anyone tell God He is not allowed to make His word and holiness distinct persons by His word and Spirit?

BTW, why was he banned? I mean he was dead on topic and he made some interesting points????????

For sure it is an interesting thread. Why did no one answer his challenge in regards to the oneness of Allah? I think maybe it is harder to demonstrate absolute oneness than it is plurality in oneness.

I don't pretend I could adequately explain the trinity... Besides I don't see it needs explaining any more than the oneness of Allah needs explaining. In fact each are impossible to explain in different ways. Aside from the fact we should not be overly concerned with explaining what God is... We can never understand all there is to God and why should we wish to? It's enough to know what God has revealed of Himself according to our human understanding.

For me the matter is simple... It comes down to love. I don't see how it is possible that a unitary God can know love or share love. As the Bible teaches that God is love... Then a triunity makes sense as God, His Word and His Spirit coexisted in eternal community of love. That we are able to share in this is remarkable and further proof of Gods love for us .. His creation.

Blessings BL

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة bahiraomar

Salam brother, if you want you can speak in Arabic. But I will give you my responses in English.

About Tawhid in the Holy Bible: please listen to conversation of my friend with a Muslim:

Hello Dr. Muhammad Madian,

This is your question: “WHICH GOD THAT WILL BE THE FATHER OR THE SON????? ONE ISSUE AND ONE ISSUE ONLY IS TO BE RESOLVED !!!!! WHO IS THE TRUE GOD IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT DESERVES TO BE WORSHIPPED ???????”

Let me explain it this way: A woman goes to the market and buys a basket. She buys a apple and puts it in the basket. She also buys an orange and puts it in the basket. But that is not all. She also buys a pear and puts it in the basket. As she goes home, she puts the basket on her head and walks the streets.

Here is the question: How many basket is on the woman’s head? Some will say because the woman has three different kind of fruits in the basket that means the woman has three baskets on her head.

Dr. Muhammad Madian, do you believe the woman has three baskets on her head? Of course not. The woman has only one basket on her head, and within this one basket are three fruits: (1), apple, (2) orange, and (3) pear.

Dr. Muhammad Madian, the basket is what we called God. Just as the basket has three fruits within, God has three Natures within. Just as you will not say, “The woman has three baskets on her head,” we do not say we have three gods

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Two problems with this example:
1. The basket can be sperated from the apples, oranges and pear thus we have four !!!

2. the nature of the basket differs from the of apples , oranges and pear one is from wood or say plastic and the others are organic where in trinity the holy spirit differs in nature from the father and the son and the son differs in nature from those two

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

For sure it is an interesting thread. Why did no one answer his challenge in regards to the oneness of Allah? I think maybe it is harder to demonstrate absolute oneness than it is plurality in oneness.

I don't pretend I could adequately explain the trinity... Besides I don't see it needs explaining any more than the oneness of Allah needs explaining. In fact each are impossible to explain in different ways. Aside from the fact we should not be overly concerned with explaining what God is... We can never understand all there is to God and why should we wish to? It's enough to know what God has revealed of Himself according to our human understanding.

For me the matter is simple... It comes down to love. I don't see how it is possible that a unitary God can know love or share love. As the Bible teaches that God is love... Then a triunity makes sense as God, His Word and His Spirit coexisted in eternal community of love. That we are able to share in this is remarkable and further proof of Gods love for us .. His creation.

Blessings BL

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The oneness you speak of is what Jesus prayed we would have with God as well "That they may be one as we are one" The oneness of God we understood only in part of His tri unity is perfect monotheism! Anyone who tries to disprove it gets confused about their own beliefs, and they are never able to disprove the trinity. Just because the term is not in the Bible people try to say it is not true. The term tawheed is not in the Quran does that mean it is not true to the Muslim? I believe Islam has imperfectly borrowed not only the virgin birth of Jesus from Christianity, but also monotheism and the concepts of heaven and hell. I just cannot see what it has to offer the Christians except confusion.
Blessings and peace to you sister.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight

The oneness you speak of is what Jesus prayed we would have with God as well "That they may be one as we are one" The oneness of God we understood only in part of His tri unity is perfect monotheism! Anyone who tries to disprove it gets confused about their own beliefs, and they are never able to disprove the trinity. Just because the term is not in the Bible people try to say it is not true. The term tawheed is not in the Quran does that mean it is not true to the Muslim? I believe Islam has imperfectly borrowed not only the virgin birth of Jesus from Christianity, but also monotheism and the concepts of heaven and hell. I just cannot see what it has to offer the Christians except confusion.
Blessings and peace to you sister.

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Pathetic response , making hidus monotheist and pagan egyptian and roman monotheist!!!!

No trinity in the OT

No trinity in the NT

no tirnity mentioned in the first two centuries