Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Apologies I missed that explanation. It does seem disjointed and that's why I need to read it carefully. As I don't have the facility to post directly on this forum or even edit my posts for errors as other muslims members have, I have to wait till my post appears on the forum, there have been many times it is not as I had wished but am at that point unable to effect any change. I see in my post the bits I copied there was a table of facts which did not copy successfully.. This could be to do with the device I use an iPad rather than PC.. Some functionality is lost.

I will ignore your last comment.. In regards to my lack of knowledge on the OT. You make a great many mistakes yourself, so I don't think it polite or useful in pointing out the imperfections of others. I try my best to explain to the best of my ability and with honesty. I am not a theologian but an ordinary Christian woman. If that's not good enough for you then we have no further need to converse and I hope you find someone who's intellect matches your own.

Peace unto you.

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It is up to you if you want to ignore my comments, and as for my mistakes then you are welcome to point them out if they are there , I am not being rude I am explaining the situation as it is . It is important before you suggest a claim or copy and paste something to make sure if it is right or not , like you claimed that the moses law always required blood to repent but in fact that is not the case as I have showed you from the book of jonah, you also claimed that christianity never claimed that those before jesus peace be upon him were not in sin but in sin nature where in the new testament paul contradicts this claim and affirms that those before jesus were in actual inheritted sin. Also you have not answered the fact that the context of genessis puts the blaim on eve where in satan seduced eve and eve seduced adam and when asked adam put the blame on eve and god replied to her why have you done this eve a clear statement in the bible showing that eve is more to blme than adam and thats what paul also taught as I have quoted from the new testament. My point is simple if you are going to make a claim about something please make sure it is actually true or as you say within your bible

peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة محمد سني 1989

It is up to you if you want to ignore my comments, and as for my mistakes then you are welcome to point them out if they are there , I am not being rude I am explaining the situation as it is . It is important before you suggest a claim or copy and paste something to make sure if it is right or not , like you claimed that the moses law always required blood to repent but in fact that is not the case as I have showed you from the book of jonah, you also claimed that christianity never claimed that those before jesus peace be upon him were not in sin but in sin nature where in the new testament paul contradicts this claim and affirms that those before jesus were in actual inheritted sin. Also you have not answered the fact that the context of genessis puts the blaim on eve where in satan seduced eve and eve seduced adam and when asked adam put the blame on eve and god replied to her why have you done this eve a clear statement in the bible showing that eve is more to blme than adam and thats what paul also taught as I have quoted from the new testament. My point is simple if you are going to make a claim about something please make sure it is actually true or as you say within your bible

peace

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Please could you repost what you feel you have proved from the Book of Jonah? Can you restrict it to the point in hand so it does not get lost in a sea of other facts. I can see you are very keen to refute every single aspect you can in regards to biblical scripture. However, I find the points you make get lost..

Could be my fault... What with my knowledge of my faith being so woefully inadequate... As you like to imply ;) :) keep it simple. I will try my best within my ability to answer.

Peace unto you.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Please could you repost what you feel you have proved from the Book of Jonah? Can you restrict it to the point in hand so it does not get lost in a sea of other facts. I can see you are very keen to refute every single aspect you can in regards to biblical scripture. However, I find the points you make get lost..

Could be my fault... What with my knowledge of my faith being so woefully inadequate... As you like to imply ;) :) keep it simple. I will try my best within my ability to answer.

Peace unto you.

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Here you go two examples of repentance without blood :

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 3: 9-10

the repentence of David

15

O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise

Psalms 51: 15-17

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة محمد سني 1989

Here you go two examples of repentance without blood :

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 3: 9-10

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Do you mean repentance or forgiveness of sins? One has to be truly repentant in order to be forgiven by God this is clear from scripture. What this passage in Jonah is saying that God relented, and withheld the promised calamity or destruction against the people of Nineveh.. Which was deserved for their evil.. By appearing repentant they avert the judgement. God can do that... If God always dispensed His divine judgement upon evil doers.. Who would be left? It does not say God forgave them. History shows that two generations later God did indeed bring destruction on Nineveh and the Assyrian nation she represented. Theirs was not a true and lasting repentance. The message of Jonah is not the repentance of the people of Nineveh but the sovereignty of God who accomplishes His purpose... Even despite disobedient prophets, such as Jonah. Which if you read about Jonah you will see. Also the people of Nineveh were not Israelites and would not be under the law of the Torah.

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the repentence of David

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15

O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise

Psalms 51: 15-17

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Psalm 51 was written by King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover his sin... I understand you do not hold with this account, on that basis you won't understand the context of the passage, as you deny the event happened then why would the passage have any relevance at all for yourself!!


Psalm 51:17 says... "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." The meaning of this is connected with the verse just before it. In verse 16 ... "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.


Take note ...although David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, he makes this statement to God... "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" verse 4.. David understood how his sin effects a Holy God. Sin is a violation of Gods nature. One can be truly repentant and yes God forgives those who are truly repentant where it counts in their heart.. However, that act of repentance does not remove the consequence of the sin, that bears a penalty.. Which has to be paid for. As God is just.

Peace unto you

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

[SIZE=5][RIGHT]Do you mean repentance or forgiveness of sins? One has to be truly repentant in order to be forgiven by God this is clear from scripture. What this passage in Jonah is saying that God relented, and withheld the promised calamity or destruction against the people of Nineveh.. Which was deserved for their evil.. By appearing repentant they avert the judgement. God can do that... If God always dispensed His divine judgement upon evil doers.. Who would be left? It does not say God forgave them. History shows that two generations later God did indeed bring destruction on Nineveh and the Assyrian nation she represented. Theirs was not a true and lasting repentance. The message of Jonah is not the repentance of the people of Nineveh but the sovereignty of God who accomplishes His purpose... Even despite disobedient prophets, such as Jonah. Which if you read about Jonah you will see. Also the people of Nineveh were not Israelites and would not be under the law of the Torah.



Psalm 51 was written by King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover his sin... I understand you do not hold with this account, on that basis you won't understand the context of the passage, as you deny the event happened then why would the passage have any relevance at all for yourself!!


Psalm 51:17 says... "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." The meaning of this is connected with the verse just before it. In verse 16 ... "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.


Take note ...although David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, he makes this statement to God... "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" verse 4.. David understood how his sin effects a Holy God. Sin is a violation of Gods nature. One can be truly repentant and yes God forgives those who are truly repentant where it counts in their heart.. However, that act of repentance does not remove the consequence of the sin, that bears a penalty.. Which has to be paid for. As God is just.

Peace unto you

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First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

Second : As for your answer concerning Jonah , now you talking about simple technicalities

first the text starts by this :

4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming,“Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Jonah 3: 4-5


So this text clearly describe them believing in god that itself is repentece since they according to the text here truly became believers , the text also goes on according to the new international version of the bible :
8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

So the text describes them as clearly returning from evil and leaving that to go to god , if they were unbelievers they would have been destroyed like the people of Noa for example.

Note: We muslims do not believe in the rest of the stories about Jonah's disobedience in Jonah 4 , nor it is written in the quran nor in the hadeeth . It is also not the subject of our discussion


Third: I do understand the context of the passage but apparantly you don't undestand how debates work , Again we do not believe that David peace be upon him committed adoltrey BUT you do so I am quoting it.

However your statement here contradicts the text :

David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.

This statement is contradicted by what david said according to the bible:

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

David clearly here is saying that sacrifice for this sin to repent it is not fullfilling , plus the sacrifice here is animal but nevertheless David is literrally stating that this sin cannot be undone or forgiven by sacrifice, I never said that blood (animal ) is never required however It is not required in most circumstances in which I have explained earlier in our discussion

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise


Here David clearly describes what kind of sacrifice needed to forgive him which is a true repentance from the heart and THAT IS MY POINT there is no need for god to sacrifice his son , David clearly states that all that is needed is a true repentence by the individual to god and regret for committing a sin

The rest of what you said about a sin requiring a penalty is contradicted by the what daivd said about a broken heart and spirit , it is just your own attempt to force your understanding on the reality of the text

And this is what is stated and taught in the OT :

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18 :21-22

These three examples in the OT of David , Jonah and Ezekiel clearly shows that god can forgive a sin if someone truly repents without the need of blood or so called penalty

اقتباس:

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First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

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With respect.. I am sorry, but I do not respond well to being patronised or shouted at. I think it better if I leave this dialogue with you. What you believe or do not believe in the Holy scriptures is of no concern to me. I wish you well in your efforts and I hope you find a worthy opponent to debate with.

peace unto you.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

With respect.. I am sorry, but I do not respond well to being patronised or shouted at. I think it better if I leave this dialogue with you. What you believe or do not believe in the Holy scriptures is of no concern to me. I wish you well in your efforts and I hope you find a worthy opponent to debate with.

peace unto you.

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I really do not see why you think capital letters offend you , as I stated before capital letters are not shouting rather to highlight a sepcific important point you are confusing my emphasis on an important point with shouting !!!!

I hope you would reconsider

peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة محمد سني 1989

I really do not see why you think capital letters offend you , as I stated before capital letters are not shouting rather to highlight a sepcific important point you are confusing my emphasis on an important point with shouting !!!!

I hope you would reconsider

peace

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Friend... Really you cannot see it offends me! I thought it was common knowledge that the use of capitals denotes shouting.. A snippet below from an article ...( Link attached).. on the topic for your perusal...

"Using all capital letters in electronic communication is like shouting at someone in person. It is a common technique used by HUSTLERS to get attention."

http://netiquette.wikia.com/wiki/Rul...t_use_all_caps

the odd word for emphasis is not cause for objection.. However, as your phrase at the start of your reply to me was personally patronising towards myself.. I felt that was not a particularly "specific important point" in the context of the post. However many times you state your belief that capitals used in this manner is not akin to shouting will not change my view that it is considered shouting, and to shout at a person.. At least where I come from.. Is considered rude.

peace unto you

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Friend... Really you cannot see it offends me! I thought it was common knowledge that the use of capitals denotes shouting.. A snippet below from an article ...( Link attached).. on the topic for your perusal...

"Using all capital letters in electronic communication is like shouting at someone in person. It is a common technique used by HUSTLERS to get attention."

http://netiquette.wikia.com/wiki/Rul...t_use_all_caps

the odd word for emphasis is not cause for objection.. However, as your phrase at the start of your reply to me was personally patronising towards myself.. I felt that was not a particularly "specific important point" in the context of the post. However many times you state your belief that capitals used in this manner is not akin to shouting will not change my view that it is considered shouting, and to shout at a person.. At least where I come from.. Is considered rude.

peace unto you

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I was not familiar with this rule since most of my posts in this blog is in the arabic section were there is no such thing in the arabic writting as capital letters and lower letters. Hovewever I do apologize if I have offended you . I will try to make the important points in the color red instead of capital letters

peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة محمد سني 1989

I was not familiar with this rule since most of my posts in this blog is in the arabic section were there is no such thing in the arabic writting as capital letters and lower letters. Hovewever I do apologize if I have offended you . I will try to make the important points in the color red instead of capital letters

peace

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I accept your gracious apology. The emphasising of what you feel to be important points in colour is acceptable.... And I do not object to the odd word here and there as capitals.

At at present I have many demands on my time, and also will be away and the location is not very good for wifi or internet connection. So I may not be able to respond to your posts. Please do not think I am ignoring your posts.

Peace unto you.