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01-06-2014, 01:54 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

Well, Islamic pillars have many conditions and times as well. I see no much difference and still cannot see what you are trying to prove.

I am attempting to explain what importance Christians place on the Covenants. I started another thread with this in mind, I don't know if you have seen it.. Or find it worthwhile or of interest to pursue. The only references I have found that mention covenants in the Quran apply to the Jews and Christians and are found in the first instance in the Bible. These suras are mainly critique and admonishment of the Jews and Christians not upholding the covenants. I can find nothing on covenants between God and muslims. It does not appear that Mohammed never authored a covenant like the Biblical prophets. I confess the suras may be there and I just have not found them. Maybe you can enlighten me on that point. I really do not see that the five pillars constitute a covenant. I believe we have established that muslims may see themselves adopted into the Abrahamic Covenant through Ismael, yet you do not uphold the conditions and so have in effect broken it.

اقتباس:

Well, the point is that what wasn't said is much more important, I don't see that these verses imply the Trinity in the way you believe in, it just mentions the son and the Holy Spirit, neither does it say they are God nor that they are one with the Father.

This is about as clear as mud to me! How can you make a claim that what wasn't said is more important than what we know was recorded to be said??? How do you actually know what wasn't said? I think I mentioned already that the concept of the trinity is not based on any particular verses in any particular books.. But on study of the Bible as a whole. Cherry picking a verse and claiming that it does not mention the trinity therefore it cannot have meant to imply the concept of the trinity is not going to bring anything to your case. Besides which the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible at all I don't think you would ever find a Christian that would say it was.

اقتباس:

No not necessary a unity, they are just three different entities interacting with each other.

Three different entities interacting with each other... This is what you chose to take from this verse... However the Bible does support the trinitarian view of God, and this view does not in any way detract from Gods ONENESS. I don't see this concept is that hard to understand though not easy to put into words.. :) God chooses to communicate with mankind.. But as it's not possible for us to fully comprehend God, then God has to communicate in a manner we can understand.. This being through His Word and His will.. This is not hard to grasp as we also use words and will (actions) to make ourselves understood and communicate with each other. As God is greater than His creation why would you assume that God is limited in How He chooses to communicate with us.. Why could God not send His Word in the form of a man..? Why could God not send His Spirit to affect our actions? What makes you doubt that the Old Testament prophets received their message through Gods Word? But God had not judged the time to be right for His Word to be made flesh in Jesus?

اقتباس:

Well, I didn't say that these verses negate God's unity all what it says is there is no Trinity and only the Father is God.

As we said already this is what you choose to take from these verses. Your heart is already hardened against seeing anything else.. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. That could be that God has not opened your heart and mind to that possibility or something is preventing you from seeing it. I see Islam as muslims seeking to find God I see Christianity as God showing how he can be found. Allah seems distant and aloof.. And I struggle to see how it is possible to have a relationship in community with Allah whereas With YHWH of the Bible I see God wishing to communicate with His creation through love, Jesus was the biggest act of agape love for all mankind... Gods gift to enable us to make ourselves right before God. We can only pray for divine guidance that our paths are clear.

Peace and blessings.
01-06-2014, 09:27 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

I am attempting to explain what importance Christians place on the Covenants. I started another thread with this in mind, I don't know if you have seen it.. Or find it worthwhile or of interest to pursue. The only references I have found that mention covenants in the Quran apply to the Jews and Christians and are found in the first instance in the Bible. These suras are mainly critique and admonishment of the Jews and Christians not upholding the covenants. I can find nothing on covenants between God and muslims. It does not appear that Mohammed never authored a covenant like the Biblical prophets. I confess the suras may be there and I just have not found them. Maybe you can enlighten me on that point. I really do not see that the five pillars constitute a covenant. I believe we have established that muslims may see themselves adopted into the Abrahamic Covenant through Ismael, yet you do not uphold the conditions and so have in effect broken it.

So I think you mean more promises to Muslims based on conditions, well you may see this verse(Sura 24):
55. Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

Actually I have read your post, well I see no much point in it. If you are talking about the case of Adam, Eve and Satan. We actually don't see any curses but God forgave Adam and Eve, then they were descended to Earth where God said (Sura 2):
36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
And at the same time He gave us the way to be away from the Satan (Sura 7):
200. If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah. for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
201. Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!

اقتباس:

This is about as clear as mud to me! How can you make a claim that what wasn't said is more important than what we know was recorded to be said??? How do you actually know what wasn't said? I think I mentioned already that the concept of the trinity is not based on any particular verses in any particular books.. But on study of the Bible as a whole. Cherry picking a verse and claiming that it does not mention the trinity therefore it cannot have meant to imply the concept of the trinity is not going to bring anything to your case. Besides which the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible at all I don't think you would ever find a Christian that would say it was.

Well, you are the one who picked the verses to prove they are implying the concept of Trinity in the Bible not me, what I am saying is that these verses are not mentioning the concept of Trinity, the verses I put actually disprove the Trinity. The case is that the concept that the Father the son and the holy spirit are one is never mentioned in the Bible except in 1 John 5:7 which is actually a forgery as many Christian scholars acknowledged, all other citations never said so, otherwise why don't you consider this Trinity?
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

اقتباس:

This being through His Word and His will.. This is not hard to grasp as we also use words and will (actions) to make ourselves understood and communicate with each other. As God is greater than His creation why would you assume that God is limited in How He chooses to communicate with us..

Well, but our words and wills are not separate from us because they are not entities which interact with us but they come out from our tongues and from our hands or legs, this is not the case with the son and the holy spirit where the Bible treats them as entities who interact with each other. Again, the point is whether the concept is hard to grasp or not, the case is that this concept has no evidence or a solid ground telling it from the Bible but they are just interpretations of Trinitarian Christians.

اقتباس:

Allah seems distant and aloof.. And I struggle to see how it is possible to have a relationship in community with Allah whereas With YHWH of the Bible I see God wishing to communicate with His creation through love, Jesus was the biggest act of agape love for all mankind... Gods gift to enable us to make ourselves right before God. We can only pray for divine guidance that our paths are clear.

Actually Allah is NOT distant at all, you may see my article Concept of God in Islam explaining this point, as for our point regarding God being a man, we have discussed this a lot and I see that even the Bible neither gives a solid evidence regarding the point of salvation or whether Jesus is God or not.
02-06-2014, 01:12 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

So I think you mean more promises to Muslims based on conditions, well you may see this verse(Sura 24):
55. Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

I actually meant a Covenant, not promises. Is this what you see as your covenant then? Having said that you are under the unconditional Covenants that were authored in the Bible.. As they applied to all mankind for all time. So I would have expected these at least to be mentioned in the Quran. Maybe they are and I have not found them yet.

اقتباس:

Actually I have read your post, well I see no much point in it. If you are talking about the case of Adam, Eve and Satan. We actually don't see any curses but God forgave Adam and Eve, then they were descended to Earth where God said (Sura 2):
36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
And at the same time He gave us the way to be away from the Satan (Sura 7):
200. If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah. for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
201. Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!

Well, that's a shame, that you see no point in Gods Covenants.. Seeing as they govern all life on this earth, including yours!

Yes, I see what you take from Adam and Eve. IMHO.. You are in error... Seriously so. Besides I said what the curses were.. They still stand today, so how come you can't see them? If you cannot see the consequence of the fall from grace then you have the wrong idea about sin... If you have the wrong idea about sin.. Then you can't hope to atone for it. If you can't atone for it.. Then you are forever dead in your sins. If you believe Satan's mission is only to tempt you into sin then woe betide you.
Hey! Maybe we should discuss sin.. What do you think? :)

اقتباس:

Well, you are the one who picked the verses to prove they are implying the concept of Trinity in the Bible not me, what I am saying is that these verses are not mentioning the concept of Trinity, the verses I put actually disprove the Trinity. The case is that the concept that the Father the son and the holy spirit are one is never mentioned in the Bible except in 1 John 5:7 which is actually a forgery as many Christian scholars acknowledged, all other citations never said so, otherwise why don't you consider this Trinity?
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

And you are the one misunderstanding them .. :) I never mentioned John 5:7 as I know it was a later interpolation so would not use it. We know this because we have the oldest copies of the original autographs to refer to.. They were not burnt or destroyed. There are many verses that imply trinity. 1Tim 5:21 would never be one of them.. In all my days I have never seen this verse used for this comparison. Explain please how on earth can you take "elect angels" to be part of a trinity. The Elect angels are the host that remained with God and did not defect with Satan. I certainly could not put a number on them... Far too many to be considered part of a trinity I should think.

اقتباس:

Well, but our words and wills are not separate from us because they are not entities which interact with us but they come out from our tongues and from our hands or legs, this is not the case with the son and the holy spirit where the Bible treats them as entities who interact with each other. Again, the point is whether the concept is hard to grasp or not, the case is that this concept has no evidence or a solid ground telling it from the Bible but they are just interpretations of Trinitarian Christians.

That's my point.. We exist within the limits God set for us.. God is above such limits for God nothing is impossible. So why should you suppose that it is beyond Gods Word and His will to exist separate from God yet still be part of God? Just because you don't see something does not mean it is not there, and just because you don't understand something does not mean it cannot exist.

اقتباس:

Actually Allah is NOT distant at all, you may see my article Concept of God in Islam explaining this point, as for our point regarding God being a man, we have discussed this a lot and I see that even the Bible neither gives a solid evidence regarding the point of salvation or whether Jesus is God or not.

I have not reached that part of your article yet.. However, as a Christian we believe and Jesus taught us so, that God is love.. God is love personified. On that basis I cannot see how a unitary being can experience love. The know the emotion love it has to be shared. Who does a unitary being share with? As I see it God, His Word and His Spirit exist in eternity in a community of love. This community is what we desire to be part of, our life on earth is a reflection of that desire, we are conditioned to need to be loved and to love in return. We are not meant to be unitary beings but we are meant to be a community. God made us in His image and likeness... To love and be loved.

Unlike hate.. Hate is an emotion that does not require sharing it is possible for one to hate alone.. But hate being ultimately a destructive emotion one can be eaten up and consumed by hate which drives one further into isolation. Nothing good can be born from Hate.

The evidence is there and clear for those with eyes to see it. But for those with eyes wide shut it will always remain a closed Book to them. Which is a shame. :( Jesus is your salvation it is through His redeeming work you are saved... You not accepting that does not mean it is not truth.

Peace.
05-06-2014, 07:53 PM
M.Khaled

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

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I actually meant a Covenant, not promises. Is this what you see as your covenant then? Having said that you are under the unconditional Covenants that were authored in the Bible.. As they applied to all mankind for all time. So I would have expected these at least to be mentioned in the Quran. Maybe they are and I have not found them yet.

Well, I haven't said that I am under the unconditional covenants in the Bible, just I have shown that we are actually circumcising following the way of Abraham (Peace be upon him) as the Quran ordered us, that doesn't mean that the Quran must have said it the same way as the Bible said but it has the same concept. If you are talking about the verse I gave above, actually the covenant or promise are conditional by believing, doing good and
worshiping Allah (alone) and not associate aught with Him.

اقتباس:

Well, that's a shame, that you see no point in Gods Covenants.. Seeing as they govern all life on this earth, including yours!

Yes I see no point in the covenants issue as it neither proves Quran or Bible right or wrong, especially that I just see it's a just point of terminology, you may consider these as covenants I may consider them as natural laws, or for the conditional ones, they are God's orders and promises.

اقتباس:

Yes, I see what you take from Adam and Eve. IMHO.. You are in error... Seriously so. Besides I said what the curses were.. They still stand today, so how come you can't see them? If you cannot see the consequence of the fall from grace then you have the wrong idea about sin... If you have the wrong idea about sin.. Then you can't hope to atone for it. If you can't atone for it.. Then you are forever dead in your sins. If you believe Satan's mission is only to tempt you into sin then woe betide you.

Well, this is the salvation point which we already discussed and are still discussing it.

اقتباس:

And you are the one misunderstanding them .. :) I never mentioned John 5:7 as I know it was a later interpolation so would not use it. We know this because we have the oldest copies of the original autographs to refer to.. They were not burnt or destroyed. There are many verses that imply trinity.

Actually that's what I meant, the only verse that may have mentioned the Trinity concept explicitly is actually a spurious one, all the other verses you cite actually don't state the Trinity, and even you said the word "imply" which means they never stated the Trinity concept explicitly. Sorry, if God wanted to state a very critical doctrine like this, He would have made it clear and explicit not subject to different conclusions or interpretations.

اقتباس:

1Tim 5:21 would never be one of them.. In all my days I have never seen this verse used for this comparison. Explain please how on earth can you take "elect angels" to be part of a trinity.

Explain please how on earth did I say that this is really a Trinity. All what I meant is that your logic in concluding that Mat 28:19 is telling about the Trinity is not working, because if it was, it would have meant that the 1 Tim 5:21 tells about another trinity.

اقتباس:

That's my point.. We exist within the limits God set for us.. God is above such limits for God nothing is impossible. So why should you suppose that it is beyond Gods Word and His will to exist separate from God yet still be part of God?

Simply because I see no evidence that God said that he is three persons in any of His books. If God really said it then I will say the above quote you said, otherwise, I won't put words in God's mouth.
06-06-2014, 12:36 AM
pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled

Well, I haven't said that I am under the unconditional covenants in the Bible, just I have shown that we are actually circumcising following the way of Abraham (Peace be upon him) as the Quran ordered us, that doesn't mean that the Quran must have said it the same way as the Bible said but it has the same concept. If you are talking about the verse I gave above, actually the covenant or promise are conditional by believing, doing good and
worshiping Allah (alone) and not associate aught with Him.

I thought as muslims you followed the previous prophets.. At least those that you know of, the ones mentioned in the Quran. If
you think that following the way of Abraham cuts it, then fair enough. As I understand it circumcision is not a requirement in the Quran but is Sunnah.. Or am I mistaken in that? So I'm not sure why you bother to circumcise at all if it was not commanded of you by God, then to do so out of some misguided idea of respect to the way of prophet Abraham then it seems rather empty of purpose. Unless of course it is born from cultural traditions... In which case the subject is immaterial. I don't know why God made so many covenants with mankind through the Bible both conditional and non conditional yet did not feel the need to do the same for the muslims through the Quran.

اقتباس:

Yes I see no point in the covenants issue as it neither proves Quran or Bible right or wrong, especially that I just see it's a just point of terminology, you may consider these as covenants I may consider them as natural laws, or for the conditional ones, they are God's orders and promises.

I see... :) so it's just about proof for you. The Covenants are proof that God cares enough for His people to place rules and government for their well being. That God cares enough to make promises to His people. That God cares enough to show His people the way to redemption. That God cares enough to give His people the gift of achieving salvation by the sending of a Saviour.. Because God knows our faults and we can never do it without His divine help.. Our need is great. The Covenants show that God knows us.. As sinners.. Yet still loves us.

اقتباس:

Well, this is the salvation point which we already discussed and are still discussing it.

I think we have come to the conclusion that we see the concept of sin differently. I'm not sure if we have discussed this throughly ;) maybe it should have a separate thread... :)

اقتباس:

Actually that's what I meant, the only verse that may have mentioned the Trinity concept explicitly is actually a spurious one, all the other verses you cite actually don't state the Trinity, and even you said the word "imply" which means they never stated the Trinity concept explicitly. Sorry, if God wanted to state a very critical doctrine like this, He would have made it clear and explicit not subject to different conclusions or interpretations.

Well, really that is not the only verse that implies the Trinity concept. The Bible is full of verses that imply the Trinity. However.. You will not find a verse that specifically says "Trinity" because the Bible does not teach it. I don't see that the doctrine of the Trinity is "critical" in the terms of ones eternal salvation... That's what the Bible is concerned with.. The way to make oneself right before God. We know that God is One, there is nothing comparable, that Jesus is His Word.. That God is Spirit and Holy therefore Holy Spirit.. These are aspects of God that GOD has revealed of Himself to mankind through various prophets in the Bible. Men deliberated on this and came up with the word "Trinity" because it best describes how God has revealed Himself to Christians. I don't know why you are so hung up on the whole Trinity thing. Just accept that you don't see God this way.

اقتباس:

Explain please how on earth did I say that this is really a Trinity. All what I meant is that your logic in concluding that Mat 28:19 is telling about the Trinity is not working, because if it was, it would have meant that the 1 Tim 5:21 tells about another trinity.

Obviously you are free to believe what you want and interpret Mat 28:19 how you will.. but like it or not this is another verse that implies the Trinity. How can Jesus... if He was a mere mortal man.. A creation as you or me.. put Himself in the same status as God? By adjoining His Himself with God and the Spirit shows a closer relationship than simply a prophet of God.

اقتباس:

Simply because I see no evidence that God said that he is three persons in any of His books. If God really said it then I will say the above quote you said, otherwise, I won't put words in God's mouth.

M.Khaled... :) Ever logical friend.. It is possible to infer something without recourse to direct speech. Sometimes actions speak louder than words. Combine actions and words then there is no room for doubt. I feel you are used to seeing your faith through mans logic and proof.. The evidence is there... There is no need to presume to put words in Gods mouth.. You just cannot see the evidence because your eyes have not been opened to the greater possibilities of God..

Peace to you.
07-06-2014, 01:20 PM
pandora

Greetings M.Khaled, I have looked at the Sura you posted below again to see how it fits in with the concepts of Covenant. I can see they can be taken as promises. Maybe it is clearer in Arabic language and it loses something in translation. It seems to me that the use of "Allah has promised" and "He" makes it appear that these were not direct promises between Allah and mankind, as in the Bible between YHWH and mankind... For YHWH starts His covenants with "I".. We are left in no doubt as to who is authoring the Covenant..YHWH. Your promises give the impression of having been passed through an intermediary acting on behalf of Allah.

Also why the condition ~ They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. ~ who is this aimed at? I can only think it could mean the idol worshipping pagans of Arabia, who I believe Mohammed's revelation was meant for. To bring these polytheists to the One God. That covers the first .. Worship me alone.. But I don't see who the ~ and not associate aught with Me ~ is aimed at. Seeing as the Jews and Christians were already worshipping the One true God YHWH and as God is omniscient then God would know what is in the hearts and prayers of all mankind.. I'm not sure I see the reason for God to add such a condition on the muslims.

اقتباس:

So I think you mean more promises to Muslims based on conditions, well you may see this verse(Sura 24):55. Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

A point to add to your post below.. Just to say IMHO this view of Satan and his role in the fall of man, does not give a true understanding of Satan.. Which I feel leaves you at risk of underestimating his aim, his power and his goal. Which leaves you exposed.

اقتباس:

Actually I have read your post, well I see no much point in it. If you are talking about the case of Adam, Eve and Satan. We actually don't see any curses but God forgave Adam and Eve, then they were descended to Earth where God said (Sura 2):
36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
And at the same time He gave us the way to be away from the Satan (Sura 7):
200. If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah. for He heareth and knoweth (all things).
201. Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!

Peace to you.

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