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عرض للطباعة
Why and what is it that Muslims love about Jesus?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة شمائل
It would seem muslims spend an inordinate amount of time and effort in dissecting the person of Jesus. If this forum is fair representation that is... Yet, I see not very much of similarity between of Issa in the Quran and Jesus of the Bible. This seems so striking to me I sometimes wonder if they are one and the same person.
Muslims say they respect and love Jesus I too would like to know why?
The answer is inside the book, do I read?
Yes, the answer is inside the Book which is the Bible and do you read? I don't know do you, but yes, you should read.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة شمائل
You are always adopts random replies
Have you ever read this book (the subject)
http://www.islamic-invitation.com/bo...s.php?bID=1630
Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by the book. No, I have never read that book. Have you? If yes, what stood out to you the most?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة شمائل
I read your book..or article. It tells me nothing new that I have not seen on this forum and others about how the average Muslim understands Jesus. It tells me nothing about why you respect Jesus. It tells me nothing about why you as a Muslim love Jesus. I can only assume that most muslims pay lip service only to the notion of respecting Jesus, and say this because they are told to be a Muslim one has to believe in Jesus and all the prophets.. Can you believe, respect and love someone you don't know or understand?
What does the Quran tell me of Jesus? We are told He was born miraculously.. But doesn't explain why. We are told He spoke from the cradle... But doesn't explain why.. Except for maybe saving His mother from shame. However, as we know Mary was chosen by God for this task, then there was no shame to her person and God was with her and would protect her. He acted as God in giving life to clay birds... Even though Islam denies vehemently that Jesus was in any way divine. He brought a book, the Injil... Of which there is no trace... Despite the many thousands of manuscripts dated centuries before the birth of Jesus.. Among these manuscripts nothing of the Injil exists. He taught that God was one... Which I can agree with as that concurs with what we know of God from the Bible. However, there is nothing in his teaching according to the Quran about the nature of God. If there is more to be found I'm sure you can tell be what I have missed.
Based on what you know about Jesus, I have to assume that the love and respect you say you have towards Him is out of a sense of obligation, because that's what you are told is required of you. I can't see it stems from any real knowledge and understanding of the person of Jesus. Maybe you should read more about Jesus from what Jesus told us of himself and the accounts of those who knew Him best.. That's to be found in the Gospels.
Peace and blessings.
And your objection is ? We believe in him as a prophet . And prophets are above all else . They dilevered the message and fulfilled their missions with honesty . Why NOT love them ?اقتباس:
I can only assume that most muslims pay lip service only to the notion of respecting Jesus, and say this because they are told to be a Muslim one has to believe in Jesus and all the prophets.. Can you believe, respect and love someone you don't know or understand?
He was born - peace upon him - miraculously and spoke in cradle because every prophet had a miracle(s) proving his prophecy . Moses peace upon him had the staff becoming a snake which made the wizards admit it is no sorcery like what they do but a true miracle from Allah . Read about it . Solomon peace upon him was able to understand birds and other creatures and he had a great kingdom . Read about it . Salih peace upon him had the pregnant camel appearing out of a rock . Read about it . Each prophet had miracles . It's as simple as that .اقتباس:
What does the Quran tell me of Jesus? We are told He was born miraculously.. But doesn't explain why. We are told He spoke from the cradle... But doesn't explain why.. Except for maybe saving His mother from shame.
You clearly - no surprise ! - didn't read the sign talking about this :اقتباس:
He acted as God in giving life to clay birds... Even though Islam denies vehemently that Jesus was in any way divine.
اقتباس:
5:110 [The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."
You assume falsely . It is out of both obligation and understanding . If one is a true Muslim , he should love the prophets who delivered the message by default . Simple as that . We do understand them . They are the best of humanity and that's why they were chosen to deliver the messages . They struggled - Jihad - against the harms done to them by their people and many of them were even killed . Knowing that , how can anyone NOT love them ?!اقتباس:
Based on what you know about Jesus, I have to assume that the love and respect you say you have towards Him is out of a sense of obligation, because that's what you are told is required of you. I can't see it stems from any real knowledge and understanding of the person of Jesus.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
I do not object to your loving Him, I just doubt you understand Him. I respect you love and honour Issa of the Quran as you know Him, I simply doubt at times it is the same person as Jesus in the Bible.
No point debating about the speaking in the cradle, as we will never agree on that. Not every prophet was blessed with miracles some were just sent signs. We are also warned that false prophets also came with signs and wonders, so miracles alone are no guarantee that the messenger is genuine or the message from God. The miracles Moses did through God did not prove his prophecy, but his credentials as a prophet of God. (Maybe that's what you meant.. Possibly my bad ;) ) so that the people of Egypt, Pharaoh in particular would listen to his message. ..hence the plagues God sent when Pharaoh continued to block his ears. Where did Prophet Mohammed ever claim HIMSELF, that he could perform miracles? What does it say in the Quran about these miracles? Or are they found in the hadiths? And before you get all rude and uppity.. Those are genuine questions because when I read the Quran it did not strike me as Prophet Mohammed claimed the ability to perform miracles. The only one was the Quran, and if that came from an angel by Allah's command where was the miracle?اقتباس:
He was born - peace upon him - miraculously and spoke in cradle because every prophet had a miracle(s) proving his prophecy . Moses peace upon him had the staff becoming a snake which made the wizards admit it is no sorcery like what they do but a true miracle from Allah . Read about it . Solomon peace upon him was able to understand birds and other creatures and he had a great kingdom . Read about it . Salih peace upon him had the pregnant camel appearing out of a rock . Read about it . Each prophet had miracles . It's as simple as that .
And you clearly do not see the problem with it.. No surprise there either! Only God the father creates life, all creation is by His hands, Jesus raised the dead..(which is not the same as creating life from nothing... Or clay) He healed the sick, He made the blind see.. And cast out demons.. These were a few examples of the hundreds of recorded miracles attributed to Him.. This He did by will of the father. By having Jesus create life in inanimate clay birds is tantamount to admitting Jesus has the powers of God. Not a problem for us, but maybe one for yourselves. We know the world and all in it was made by Him and for Him... Gods eternal Word.. Jesus Christ. No point going over the Gnostics works or how the accounts therein seemingly found themselves in the Quran. I think that's been raised before.اقتباس:
You clearly - no surprise ! - didn't read the sign talking about this :
اقتباس:
You assume falsely . It is out of both obligation and understanding . If one is a true Muslim , he should love the prophets who delivered the message by default . Simple as that . We do understand them . They are the best of humanity and that's why they were chosen to deliver the messages . They struggled - Jihad - against the harms done to them by their people and many of them were even killed . Knowing that , how can anyone NOT love them ?!
We will continue to love and honour the prophets each according to our beliefs. That's good enough for me. We do not see prophets in the same way, but that is no barrier to love or respect due upon their persons.اقتباس:
peace.
It seems to me that Jesus means nothing more to a Muslim than any other prophet. In fact, they esteem their prophet Muhammad above all other prophets and human beings. We Christians see prophets and messengers as just human. THEY HAVE FAULTS LIKE ANYONE ELSE. Yes, God chose them, but those that received them and the message received the prophets reward just like the prophet. To think more of prophets than this borders on man worship. Jesus is more than a prophet, and He is not a messenger; He is the Message. When the Quran verse says God allowed Jesus to do this and that "With my permission," it is redundant. Jesus said, He does whatever the father does and without Him, He did nothing. Jesus was and is one with the father. This is not the case with all prophets some prophets disobeyed God. Moses did and Jonah did and others did. Even the Quran said that Allah found Muhammad wandering and put him of the correct path. IMHO, Muslims have so much honor, love and esteem for their prophet that it adds up to prophet worship, but they say they don't, but from where I stand it looks, feels and hints that way to me. It is no different than the Catholics worshipping Mary. The irony is Christians are against angel (messenger), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher worship. Only God, His Word, and His Spirit are worthy of worship. They are not associations or partners of God. They are God like Allah is god to the Muslim who says "we sent down the gospel & torah" Our God said, "Let us make Man...." It is a royal we and us which shows the perfect unity of the one and only God our Creator.
We do not need to justify to you
I agree, but you have to justify it for yourself or how can you go on?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة شمائل
Don't argue with an ignorant for it will be hard for people to differentiate between you
A subject for another time .اقتباس:
I do not object to your loving Him, I just doubt you understand Him. I respect you love and honour Issa of the Quran as you know Him, I simply doubt at times it is the same person as Jesus in the Bible.
Wait what ? Now I won't go further into prophets who only had "signs" - although I don't agree - and I'll focus on the main thing . I told you that he was born only of a mother and spoke in cradle because that was one of the miracles Allah gave him to leave no room for objection to the people of Israel . Not all of them believed of course but that's beside the point . The point is that miracles in their many forms - if you need to know what I mean , ask - are evidence of someone's prophecy . And that's how it was with the Christ peace upon him .اقتباس:
Not every prophet was blessed with miracles some were just sent signs. We are also warned that false prophets also came with signs and wonders, so miracles alone are no guarantee that the messenger is genuine or the message from God. The miracles Moses did through God did not prove his prophecy, but his credentials as a prophet of God. (Maybe that's what you meant.. Possibly my bad ;) ) so that the people of Egypt, Pharaoh in particular would listen to his message. ..hence the plagues God sent when Pharaoh continued to block his ears.
I don't act "rude" in standard cases . But let's be honest , when you and burnlight insisted on the claim that "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" in addition to him distracting the subject all the time - and I can count at least 5 unrelated subjects he forced in - , all of that is really irritating . I could understand if you said "Islam is wrong in saying that the people of the books corrupted them" though . Even here , we're presenting the Islamic prespective , and he's forcing his prespective ! But when someone asks , we answer while following the orders in this sign :اقتباس:
Where did Prophet Mohammed ever claim HIMSELF, that he could perform miracles? What does it say in the Quran about these miracles? Or are they found in the hadiths? And before you get all rude and uppity.. Those are genuine questions because when I read the Quran it did not strike me as Prophet Mohammed claimed the ability to perform miracles. The only one was the Quran, and if that came from an angel by Allah's command where was the miracle?
And to answer your quesiton , no , the prophet peace upon him can't perform miracles of his own . No prophet ever claimed he can perform miracles of his own . It is all by the will of Allah . So whoever gave you this idea was misinformed .اقتباس:
16:125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.
Still , the prophet peace upon him did have miracles and the first and most important is Quran itself which astonished all the experts of literature and everyone failed to rival it . Other ones are mentioned in the narrations .
And how can you understand from the sign that the Christ poured life into that clay HIMSELF ? Now come one ! I even underlined the related parts ! It is all by the will and power of Allah . In Islam , Christ peace upon him didn't do all of those on his own . That's the same with all the other prophets .اقتباس:
And you clearly do not see the problem with it.. No surprise there either! Only God the father creates life, all creation is by His hands, Jesus raised the dead..(which is not the same as creating life from nothing... Or clay) He healed the sick, He made the blind see.. And cast out demons.. These were a few examples of the hundreds of recorded miracles attributed to Him.. This He did by will of the father. By having Jesus create life in inanimate clay birds is tantamount to admitting Jesus has the powers of God. Not a problem for us, but maybe one for yourselves. We know the world and all in it was made by Him and for Him... Gods eternal Word.. Jesus Christ.
Great !! We agree on something !اقتباس:
We will continue to love and honour the prophets each according to our beliefs. That's good enough for me. We do not see prophets in the same way, but that is no barrier to love or respect due upon their persons.
I assume you are referring to me, but there is a cure for ignorance, but not for willful ignorance. I have brought up good points that you haven't addressed nor have you been able to prove ignorance on my part; yet, you call me "ignorant." Kindly, tell me what I am ignorant about and believe me when I say there are clear differences between us whether you argue your case or not.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة شمائل
Peace to you, and may you come to know the truth.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
If you say so.
Why was it necessary for Jesus to speak from the cradle? Was being born of a virgin not miracle enough?? For me personally the annunciation by Angel Gabriel was proof enough of Jesus status. The only reason that Jesus appears to speak from the cradle.. Was to somehow clear His mother Mary of calumny of those who would accuse her of being unchaste. Which as Mary had God with her for protection it was not necessary for the baby Jesus to speak thus.اقتباس:
Wait what ? Now I won't go further into prophets who only had "signs" - although I don't agree - and I'll focus on the main thing . I told you that he was born only of a mother and spoke in cradle because that was one of the miracles Allah gave him to leave no room for objection to the people of Israel . Not all of them believed of course but that's beside the point . The point is that miracles in their many forms - if you need to know what I mean , ask - are evidence of someone's prophecy . And that's how it was with the Christ peace upon him .
Ok! then I think Islam is wrong saying the people of the book corrupted their scriptures.. I find the verses from the Quran you claim backs up this view you have to ambiguous to be taken as cast iron proof of such a claim. I have asked various members at various times to bring forth the "proof" one member at least claimed to have at his fingertips.. Which was who corrupted the scripture? When was it done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God? The last point.. Given the promised punishments that would befall any who altered Gods word. No evidence was forth coming. How I don't feel it unreasonable to expect some kind of proof of this sort... If one only has otherwise ambiguity and supposition.اقتباس:
I don't act "rude" in standard cases . But let's be honest , when you and burnlight insisted on the claim that "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" in addition to him distracting the subject all the time - and I can count at least 5 unrelated subjects he forced in - , all of that is really irritating . I could understand if you said "Islam is wrong in saying that the people of the books corrupted them" though . Even here , we're presenting the Islamic prespective , and he's forcing his prespective ! But when someone asks , we answer while following the orders in this sign :
well.. That's a given. Why would you suppose otherwise? Prophets are just men.. They are tools of God. However.. I wonder if prophet Mohammed would acknowledge the miracles attributed to him today by muslims?اقتباس:
And to answer your quesiton , no , the prophet peace upon him can't perform miracles of his own . No prophet ever claimed he can perform miracles of his own . It is all by the will of Allah . So whoever gave you this idea was misinformed .
I have heard it said that the Quran was in fact the only miracle Prophet Mohammed claimed for himself. I'm not sure how it seen as miracle.. But you do so that is fine.اقتباس:
Still , the prophet peace upon him did have miracles and the first and most important is Quran itself which astonished all the experts of literature and everyone failed to rival it . Other ones are mentioned in the narrations .
Firstly, I cannot accept the "clay birds" can be attributed to Jesus at all. Due to the same reason as the "talking from the cradle".. It has dubious provenance and there is no evidence that it could be attributed to Jesus. Out of the hundreds of miracles Jesus performed during relatively short lifetime, the clay birds has absolutely no sound reasoning behind it, no lesson to be learnt, no benefit to anyone. It seems nothing more than a party trick.. And one thing the miracles of Lord Jesus were NOT.. Were party tricks. It just does not fit.اقتباس:
And how can you understand from the sign that the Christ poured life into that clay HIMSELF ? Now come one ! I even underlined the related parts ! It is all by the will and power of Allah . In Islam , Christ peace upon him didn't do all of those on his own . That's the same with all the other prophets .
اقتباس:
Great !! We agree on something !
See... It is possible at times to find common ground. For those times we cannot agree need not be cause for strife or bad feeling for either party. I accept not everyone shares my view.. I'm cool with that. Doesn't mean my view is not truth or valid.. Same goes for you and yours.اقتباس:
peace to you from me.
I'll say this as simple as I know how. When Muslims say Jesus is a prophet, we agree, but Jesus is more than just a prophet. When someone knows Jesus personally like the great apostle Paul and Christians that follow in his steps, they know Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. We know that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate; therefore, He is eternal and uncreated. Paul was knocked off his horse by the Word of God and the Word of God spoke to Paul and told him what he should do. He was faithful to the heavenly vision, but Muslims slander him.
The Quran tells us to stand on the word that has been revealed to us; for we can do No other. We Christians are doing what is right, holy and the will of God by sharing Jesus is the truth and the only truth we will ever know. To Him be glory, honor and praise forever. Christians admit that they (We) love and worship Jesus.
Muslim deny that they worship Muhammad but their actions, reactions and comments about their prophet tell a very different story to the objective viewer. They even associate his name with their god Allah in the second part of the shahada, and are taught to obey him in all things as you would Allah. That IMHO, exalts him as high as deity only you say the is not worshipped as deity. Giving a lame response such as we don't have to justify to you or don't talk to an ignorant is just another way of putting your head in the sand. If you are happy with it, that is your business, but you can never accuse me of not telling you who the truth" Is, I am, was, Will be, and Be. Why don't you know Him, and how can you say you love who you don't know? Please answer.
Peace be unto you!
When it comes to the will of Allah , this sign is enough :اقتباس:
Why was it necessary for Jesus to speak from the cradle? Was being born of a virgin not miracle enough?? For me personally the annunciation by Angel Gabriel was proof enough of Jesus status. The only reason that Jesus appears to speak from the cradle.. Was to somehow clear His mother Mary of calumny of those who would accuse her of being unchaste. Which as Mary had God with her for protection it was not necessary for the baby Jesus to speak thus.
And I have the feeling there are appearant reasons for Christ peace upon him to speak in cradle other than being a miracle and clearing his mother's name . One is that the stubborn won't believe he was actually born of a virgin and will claim things or that he's not her child . As for other reasons , I let that to who knows better than I do . And what exactly do you mean by Jibreel annuciating Christ peace upon them ?اقتباس:
21:23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.
Fianlly !اقتباس:
Ok! then I think Islam is wrong saying the people of the book corrupted their scriptures.. I find the verses from the Quran you claim backs up this view you have to ambiguous to be taken as cast iron proof of such a claim.
I am no expert when it comes to this subject to be honest . But what on Earth do these questions have to do with the matter ? Do we need to know who corrupted the Bible and when and how and why to know that it was ? If I see something altered from its origin , I don't need to know who did it to know that it's altered . That's to clear it up .اقتباس:
I have asked various members at various times to bring forth the "proof" one member at least claimed to have at his fingertips.. Which was who corrupted the scripture? When was it done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God? The last point.. Given the promised punishments that would befall any who altered Gods word. No evidence was forth coming. How I don't feel it unreasonable to expect some kind of proof of this sort... If one only has otherwise ambiguity and supposition.
Secondly , would you take it as proof that there are different versions - not translations - of the Bible today and before in history ? Or that there are Christians who admit the original scriptures are lost ? These are points to go from . But as said , I'm no expert and thus I won't talk about something I don't know as if I do .
First , we don't attribute them to HIMSELF . Secondly , we're not the ones who "attribute" them , there are countless narrations about miracles happening at his time by the will of Allah . That's because Sunnah is the second source of revelation after Quran . Not to mention how accurate it is narrated to the digree of knowing every single man in the chain .اقتباس:
well.. That's a given. Why would you suppose otherwise? Prophets are just men.. They are tools of God. However.. I wonder if prophet Mohammed would acknowledge the miracles attributed to him today by muslims?
You heard wrong . Truely , the main miracle of the prophet peace upon him was the noble Quran . The main one for Moses was the staff turning into a snake and the hand shining . The main ones for Christ were the birth from a virgin and speaking in cradle . Peace upon them all . However , there are other miracles as well . Moses had the plagues which directed to Pharoh and his people and how they were lifted after him asking Allah . Christ had curing the ill and reviving the dead and others . Muhammad had the splitting of the moon , the crying log , satisfying large groups of people with little food , and others . Peace upon them all .اقتباس:
I have heard it said that the Quran was in fact the only miracle Prophet Mohammed claimed for himself. I'm not sure how it seen as miracle.. But you do so that is fine.
As for the noble Quran , it is a miracle in that no one can rival its eloquence . Narrations and history records tell about many who admitted it is unrivaled or some who tried to only to admit later that it is impossible . Romans and Persians had spies in the Arabian lands and would know on the spot if someone succeeded but they didn't . That's so no one makes the lame claim of "of course the barbaric Muslims would kill anyone who does" as if they had the power to do so - they didn't because no one did - when htey were oppressed in Makkah for 10 years !
With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .اقتباس:
Firstly, I cannot accept the "clay birds" can be attributed to Jesus at all. Due to the same reason as the "talking from the cradle".. It has dubious provenance and there is no evidence that it could be attributed to Jesus. Out of the hundreds of miracles Jesus performed during relatively short lifetime, the clay birds has absolutely no sound reasoning behind it, no lesson to be learnt, no benefit to anyone. It seems nothing more than a party trick.. And one thing the miracles of Lord Jesus were NOT.. Were party tricks. It just does not fit.
Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
We are told to question everything. That way we know the truth gained is a truth to hold on to.
This sounds as if you do not fully understand the meaning of this miracle, because you have never been told there was a definitive reason for it. The biblical miracles by some of the prophets and Jesus always had a message to convey. Miracles were a special gift from God, they were not given on a whim but only to convey something of importance. They had to in some way benefit mankind.اقتباس:
And I have the feeling there are appearant reasons for Christ peace upon him to speak in cradle other than being a miracle and clearing his mother's name . One is that the stubborn won't believe he was actually born of a virgin and will claim things or that he's not her child . As for other reasons , I let that to who knows better than I do . And what exactly do you mean by Jibreel annuciating Christ peace upon them ?
Gabriel .. Announcing the birth of Jesus.. Thus.~
Luke 1:26-38
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
Mary's cousin Elizabeth was the mother of John the Baptist, in case you didn't know. It is known that John the Baptist knew and foretold of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah. He knew this because he was blessed with this knowledge from God whilst still in the womb..
Luke 1:39-44
Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
This for me at least is a far more satisfying account of the importance of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel announcing the birth negates the necessity for Jesus as a baby talking from his cradle. This I believe is the same Angel that brought revelation to Prophet Mohammed. You may wonder why Gabriel told a different story... Seeing as the same account or very similar was already in circulation. I know it make me wonder.
Lol... :)اقتباس:
Fianlly !
Well.. For sure this has been discussed before. I never got answers to my questions.. I took that to mean no one had the answers. This may not matter to you, because you have already decided that the Bible has to be corrupted and it's message changed, to be otherwise lends difficulties to the Quran. However.. These allegations are levelled at my Holy Book, the Bible which I hold in the highest esteem as Gods inspired scripture. As I am led to believe that none can change Gods word, then I don't feel it unreasonable to ask for evidence of this crime.. Because be in no doubt crime it is... The most heinous of crimes imaginable because it is against God Himself. If a person is accused of a crime in a court of law evidence is submitted before a considered judgement and sentence is decided. Why should I settle for less.. When Gods very message is at stake and being brought into question. You are the ones making the claims of corruption then you should provide the evidence. If you have none.. Then the claims you make are baseless.اقتباس:
I am no expert when it comes to this subject to be honest . But what on Earth do these questions have to do with the matter ? Do we need to know who corrupted the Bible and when and how and why to know that it was ? If I see something altered from its origin , I don't need to know who did it to know that it's altered . That's to clear it up .
Secondly , would you take it as proof that there are different versions - not translations - of the Bible today and before in history ? Or that there are Christians who admit the original scriptures are lost ? These are points to go from . But as said , I'm no expert and thus I won't talk about something I don't know as if I do .
are you saying the Sunnah is also of divine origin?اقتباس:
First , we don't attribute them to HIMSELF . Secondly , we're not the ones who "attribute" them , there are countless narrations about miracles happening at his time by the will of Allah . That's because Sunnah is the second source of revelation after Quran . Not to mention how accurate it is narrated to the digree of knowing every single man in the chain .
do you know why Moses staff was turned into a snake? God sent the plagues on Egypt.. For a reason. What reason does the Quran give for the plagues on Egypt please? What reason do you see for miracles like splitting the moon and a crying log? I can see the food multiplication has good cause and is of benefit.. I do not see reason behind the moon and the log.اقتباس:
You heard wrong . Truely , the main miracle of the prophet peace upon him was the noble Quran . The main one for Moses was the staff turning into a snake and the hand shining . The main ones for Christ were the birth from a virgin and speaking in cradle . Peace upon them all . However , there are other miracles as well . Moses had the plagues which directed to Pharoh and his people and how they were lifted after him asking Allah . Christ had curing the ill and reviving the dead and others . Muhammad had the splitting of the moon , the crying log , satisfying large groups of people with little food , and others . Peace upon them all .
I don't think I can comment on this.اقتباس:
As for the noble Quran , it is a miracle in that no one can rival its eloquence . Narrations and history records tell about many who admitted it is unrivaled or some who tried to only to admit later that it is impossible . Romans and Persians had spies in the Arabian lands and would know on the spot if someone succeeded but they didn't . That's so no one makes the lame claim of "of course the barbaric Muslims would kill anyone who does" as if they had the power to do so - they didn't because no one did - when htey were oppressed in Makkah for 10 years !
not suspicious.. But I guess I'm judging by the criteria we are given in the Bible for miracles and applying it to the Quran. Which is wrong of me. Maybe you do not need miracles to be nothing more than be proof of prophethood.اقتباس:
With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .
اقتباس:
Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?
No, I don't believe either of these miracles can be attributed to Jesus, I don't know of any Christian that would think they were. If you want to know I can explain why in more detail... But I have already touched on this in another thread so maybe it is enough that you believe it.. I don't.. Leave it there.. :)اقتباس:
Peace upon you.
Seriously, Jesus turning water to wine served a purpose. They ran out of wine at the marriage feast in Canaan. Walking on water served a purpose as well; He had somewhere to go. But what's the purpose of Muhammad splitting the moon or Jesus talking in the cradle or creating life from a clay or wooden bird when He had already created all life forms?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?اقتباس:
This sounds as if you do not fully understand the meaning of this miracle, because you have never been told there was a definitive reason for it. The biblical miracles by some of the prophets and Jesus always had a message to convey. Miracles were a special gift from God, they were not given on a whim but only to convey something of importance. They had to in some way benefit mankind.
And to me , the noble Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him - which are also revelations from Allah - are enough . Also , just because we don't know the reason for him talking in cradle aside from the innocence of lady Mary doesn't mean there isn't . Not to mention that we shouldn't be ashamed if it was the only reason . People could have denied that he's her child or that he was born of no father or anything else . Jews knew about teh coming of Christ and it's recorded in theri books - Islam says so too - and yet they denied that it was him and accused him of things and they're still waiting for the "real Christ" which is in Islam the false Christ (Dajjal) . That's what the ones of falseehood always do . Also , talking as an infant is a miracle in itself and that is quiet enough .اقتباس:
This for me at least is a far more satisfying account of the importance of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel announcing the birth negates the necessity for Jesus as a baby talking from his cradle. This I believe is the same Angel that brought revelation to Prophet Mohammed. You may wonder why Gabriel told a different story... Seeing as the same account or very similar was already in circulation. I know it make me wonder.
There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .اقتباس:
Well.. For sure this has been discussed before. I never got answers to my questions.. I took that to mean no one had the answers. This may not matter to you, because you have already decided that the Bible has to be corrupted and it's message changed, to be otherwise lends difficulties to the Quran. However.. These allegations are levelled at my Holy Book, the Bible which I hold in the highest esteem as Gods inspired scripture. As I am led to believe that none can change Gods word, then I don't feel it unreasonable to ask for evidence of this crime.. Because be in no doubt crime it is... The most heinous of crimes imaginable because it is against God Himself. If a person is accused of a crime in a court of law evidence is submitted before a considered judgement and sentence is decided. Why should I settle for less.. When Gods very message is at stake and being brought into question. You are the ones making the claims of corruption then you should provide the evidence. If you have none.. Then the claims you make are baseless.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...'t_say.pngاقتباس:
are you saying the Sunnah is also of divine origin?
You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .اقتباس:
do you know why Moses staff was turned into a snake? God sent the plagues on Egypt.. For a reason. What reason does the Quran give for the plagues on Egypt please? What reason do you see for miracles like splitting the moon and a crying log? I can see the food multiplication has good cause and is of benefit.. I do not see reason behind the moon and the log.
I see .اقتباس:
not suspicious.. But I guess I'm judging by the criteria we are given in the Bible for miracles and applying it to the Quran. Which is wrong of me. Maybe you do not need miracles to be nothing more than be proof of prophethood.
Fair enough .اقتباس:
No, I don't believe either of these miracles can be attributed to Jesus, I don't know of any Christian that would think they were. If you want to know I can explain why in more detail... But I have already touched on this in another thread so maybe it is enough that you believe it.. I don't.. Leave it there.. :)
Fair enough . Still though , as said , in Islam , it doesn't have to directly benefit people financially or so .اقتباس:
Seriously, Jesus turning water to wine served a purpose. They ran out of wine at the marriage feast in Canaan. Walking on water served a purpose as well; He had somewhere to go. But what's the purpose of Muhammad splitting the moon or Jesus talking in the cradle or creating life from a clay or wooden bird when He had already created all life forms?
Not really, Jesus walking on water shows that He was above nature and all creation. It shows that by faith in God we too can live a miraculous life. Peter got out of his boat with Jesus' permission to walk on water. Living the Christine life is impossible just like walking on water. It shows that all things are possible with God, and that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us to accomplish a pleasing life to God by God's grace and faith. There is a message; the message walked on water!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
The Jews didn't know Jesus was to be born of a virgin. The only way the Jews or anyone else learned of this is through the NT Bible which is Holy and Noble. People can say it is corrupted, but they have no proof to show how, when, where, and who and for what reason. Who made money or benefited from corrupting the Bible to say Jesus died to save us from our sin or that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory or that the wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord? This message is stumbling to the Jews first. Why should we accept the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is noble? Mormons say the Book of Mormon is noble and God's last testament. Why should we accept their book and prophet? Do you see what I mean?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
Give proof and explain why God wouldn't preserve or guard all His word from the beginning; why the Quran. Did Allah not know man would corrupt His word from the beginning or did he learn by what they did to the torah and gospel. Do you see the problem I am having here?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
I believe it. You don't? Why?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
Who said anything about financially?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
Peace and blessings
well what reason for splitting the moon? Or a crying log? You ask what benefit to mankind was Jesus walking on water? Most importantly to show His disciples (in this instance) who He was. It goes that the boat they were in was already battling the waves.. And they were exhausted by their efforts and getting nowhere.. Jesus appeared to them walking on the water. Naturally they were at first scared. We take from this when things are bad and we are scared and alone... Jesus is with us....اقتباس:
And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?
God said to Isaiah ~ "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you” (Isaiah 43:2).
We know The Lord may not come at the time we think He should come... because He knows when we need Him the most. Jesus had waited until the boat was as far from land... And when all their hope was gone. In essence, Jesus was testing the disciples' faith, and this meant removing every human prop. Jesus walked on the water to show His disciples that the very thing they feared... the raging sea was merely a set of steps for Him to come to them. We often find difficult experiences in life such as illness, loss of loved ones, and financial hardships hard to bear, only to discover that these experiences can bring Jesus closer to us. It's when we are most low and in need He is there for us.
Another point is that Jesus proved Himself to be in command of the elements, something only God can do. He revealed this truth to the disciples who recognized His divinity and responded with a confession of faith in Jesus as God and their worship of Him:
And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:32-33). Jesus did not rebuke them for this as it was His way of bringing them to the understanding of who He was..anybody can say I am Gods son.. But coming to the understanding oneself by evidence given and works done is of greater value in growing in faith with God. Hence the parallel teaching in Isaiah..
Now, this is not "fake story" ... As such claim has been made by the dear Sister. It is a true understanding of what lesson Christians take from this miracle. You are free to see no meaning or even write it off as nonsense. But you did ask... And you know me and fondness for words.. Sorry for the long post..
Peace.
ok, I get that. It is how you see things... Fair enough. However, with no proof of corruption of the previous scriptures then it's impossible to prove Gods previous message was changed in the Old Testament. As we see Christ as the message rather than the messenger.. And Christ lives and is eternal.. Then that message must also be incorruptible. What of Joseph Smith and the revelation of Mormon?... He claimed this message is written on "golden plates" which is in heaven. You see it is a matter of personal faith, and you take on faith that which you cannot prove.اقتباس:
There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .
Yes, I believe the staff of Moses became a snake. This was Gods way to show the Pharaoh the importance of Moses.. The aim of the miracles (10 plagues) was to show Pharaoh the power of the ONE true God as opposed to the numerous powerless gods the Egyptians worshipped. So the Pharaoh would release Gods people and let them go. So in this way they did benefit the Hebrew people at this time.. Eventually Pharaoh capitulated and set the people free... Yet reluctantly.اقتباس:
You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .
Miracles by by their nature would never bring financial benefit to anyone as God does not deal in cash.
Peace.
And you're supposing that splitting the moon doesn't show that Allah is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him ?اقتباس:
Not really, Jesus walking on water shows that He was above nature and all creation. It shows that by faith in God we too can live a miraculous life. Peter got out of his boat with Jesus' permission to walk on water. Living the Christine life is impossible just like walking on water. It shows that all things are possible with God, and that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us to accomplish a pleasing life to God by God's grace and faith. There is a message; the message walked on water!
Why should we believe by default that your book is holy ? Why should anyone believe that the other's book is holy ? That's where discussions are held . But not now . It's unrelated .اقتباس:
The Jews didn't know Jesus was to be born of a virgin. The only way the Jews or anyone else learned of this is through the NT Bible which is Holy and Noble. People can say it is corrupted, but they have no proof to show how, when, where, and who and for what reason. Who made money or benefited from corrupting the Bible to say Jesus died to save us from our sin or that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory or that the wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord? This message is stumbling to the Jews first. Why should we accept the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is noble? Mormons say the Book of Mormon is noble and God's last testament. Why should we accept their book and prophet? Do you see what I mean?
There seems to be a gap between your understanding and Pandora's . I just explained here :اقتباس:
Give proof and explain why God wouldn't preserve or guard all His word from the beginning; why the Quran. Did Allah not know man would corrupt His word from the beginning or did he learn by what they did to the torah and gospel. Do you see the problem I am having here?
Everything you asked about is answered in this last quote .اقتباس:
But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief .
I do . I was asking .اقتباس:
I believe it. You don't? Why?
Financially , materially , you know the roll .اقتباس:
Who said anything about financially?
What's the difference between that and prophets having miracles to show who they are ?اقتباس:
well what reason for splitting the moon? Or a crying log? You ask what benefit to mankind was Jesus walking on water? Most importantly to show His disciples (in this instance) who He was.
That's what we believe in Islam as well . Except the part of Christ peace upon him being one with Allah of course . Hardships , tough times , we are taught to always have faith and be pateint trying to be even the slightest like the prophets who endured countless sorts of harm .اقتباس:
We know The Lord may not come at the time we think He should come... because He knows when we need Him the most. Jesus had waited until the boat was as far from land... And when all their hope was gone. In essence, Jesus was testing the disciples' faith, and this meant removing every human prop. Jesus walked on the water to show His disciples that the very thing they feared... the raging sea was merely a set of steps for Him to come to them. We often find difficult experiences in life such as illness, loss of loved ones, and financial hardships hard to bear, only to discover that these experiences can bring Jesus closer to us. It's when we are most low and in need He is there for us.
Good , and it's the same with prophets . Anyone can say he's a prophet but only through evidence can that be proved . There were also false prophets during the first years of the Islamic nation who were expoesed for different reasons .اقتباس:
And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:32-33). Jesus did not rebuke them for this as it was His way of bringing them to the understanding of who He was..anybody can say I am Gods son.. But coming to the understanding oneself by evidence given and works done is of greater value in growing in faith with God. Hence the parallel teaching in Isaiah..
Again , we all have our beliefs .اقتباس:
Now, this is not "fake story" ... As such claim has been made by the dear Sister. It is a true understanding of what lesson Christians take from this miracle. You are free to see no meaning or even write it off as nonsense. But you did ask... And you know me and fondness for words.. Sorry for the long post..
Ironically missing the point in honesty . Now let's put this Smith guy - who I don't know at all - aside and focus on the issue . First , it's not how I see things . This is an Islamic belief and a matter of faith . I did say that I won't go into the matter of corruption because I'm no expert . And I repeat again , when we believe that Islam is true through signs and evidence , we believe whatever it says as it cannot be wrong . Some might misunderstand and those of falsehood will surely make slanders , but that's what faith means . It's not a matter of blind belief . And please don't dive into stuff like "You can't prove your faith" because you'd be the same as what you describe of pot and kettle . Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .اقتباس:
ok, I get that. It is how you see things... Fair enough. However, with no proof of corruption of the previous scriptures then it's impossible to prove Gods previous message was changed in the Old Testament. As we see Christ as the message rather than the messenger.. And Christ lives and is eternal.. Then that message must also be incorruptible. What of Joseph Smith and the revelation of Mormon?... He claimed this message is written on "golden plates" which is in heaven. You see it is a matter of personal faith, and you take on faith that which you cannot prove.
And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?اقتباس:
Yes, I believe the staff of Moses became a snake. This was Gods way to show the Pharaoh the importance of Moses.. The aim of the miracles (10 plagues) was to show Pharaoh the power of the ONE true God as opposed to the numerous powerless gods the Egyptians worshipped.
Financially , materially , bodily , you know what I mean .اقتباس:
Miracles by by their nature would never bring financial benefit to anyone as God does not deal in cash.
on one level.. Not a lot, in this particular miracle Jesus was not proving to mankind His validity as a prophet.. he was bringing to the understanding of the disciples of who He was. Which as per our belief was more than a prophet. We're going to differ here... Each to their own and all that.اقتباس:
What's the difference between that and prophets having miracles to show who they are ?
thats fine, Christians identify more on a personal level with God, as Jesus taught us was possible. Jesus showed we could know God through Him.. At least a part of God... That we can understand.اقتباس:
That's what we believe in Islam as well . Except the part of Christ peace upon him being one with Allah of course . Hardships , tough times , we are taught to always have faith and be pateint trying to be even the slightest like the prophets who endured countless sorts of harm .
interesting point.. Does the Quran tell you how to distinguish between a true and false prophet as the Bible does? I thought it claimed you should believe and trust in all prophets. We know false prophets can also have miracles and signs.. Not all miracles are from God.اقتباس:
Good , and it's the same with prophets . Anyone can say he's a prophet but only through evidence can that be proved . There were also false prophets during the first years of the Islamic nation who were expoesed for different reasons .
my faith is not blind.. It is based on the Spirit of truth that is God. I don't even need miracles or signs to know that. God wrote it on my heart. :) I am told to test the prophets so test them I will.. If they are found wanting. Then their message is not for me to follow. It's truth.. You can't prove faith.. Faith is what you have in the absence of logic. How can you ever hope for God and all God is to conform to human understanding and logic? So how can you prove to me that Islam is truth? Miracles and signs? Well the Bible has them in abundance.. The miracles attributed to Jesus alone are greater in number than all the prophets combined. How do you prove by today's scientific standards that those miracles happened? You can't so you take it on faith that they did and that faith is based on your intrinsic need for a divine being .. God.. That oversees all we are. Don't belittle faith over logic.. Logic and evidence can and could one day be disproven .. Faith is unshakable.اقتباس:
Ironically missing the point in honesty . Now let's put this Smith guy - who I don't know at all - aside and focus on the issue . First , it's not how I see things . This is an Islamic belief and a matter of faith . I did say that I won't go into the matter of corruption because I'm no expert . And I repeat again , when we believe that Islam is true through signs and evidence , we believe whatever it says as it cannot be wrong . Some might misunderstand and those of falsehood will surely make slanders , but that's what faith means . It's not a matter of blind belief . And please don't dive into stuff like "You can't prove your faith" because you'd be the same as what you describe of pot and kettle . Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .
never said I didn't accept it in Islam. I may have said the reasons in Islam as to why it happened may differ.. But the recording event itself I have no issues with.اقتباس:
And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?
financially.. No way as God does not deal in cash. materially.. Again doubtful.. As that implies storing up treasures on earth which do not benefit anyone in eternity. Bodily.. That may be pertinent.. Because as our time on earth we are body.. As that body contains our spirit and the spirit being the concern of God, then a miracle should be considered to hold some benefit to the body..اقتباس:
Financially , materially , bodily , you know what I mean .
Weather it be bringing understanding of how best to live our lives ensuring our spirit returns to our creator in good state. Or the understanding through using our body, mind and spirit to best serve mankind and further enlightenment and understanding of God. I see that has a place and a benefit.
Peace to you.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
I am supposing nothing. There is no evidence that this happened. It would be written and documented in independent sources and known world wide like the flood of Noah recorded in all cultures. The splitting of the moon would've cause tidal flooding all around the world, and billions of people groups, tongues, nations, and languages would have seen the moon spilt and documented it. If some remote people saw it happen, I would take it to have been an illusion. Besides, faith doesn't require one to see God's power, and when God does something supernatural or a miracle, it is for a good reason and not just to show off His power. We know by faith God has power, and those who don't have faith even if they see God's miracles they will still not believe. So what is the point of splitting the moon, and what is it with the crescent moon over the Mosques? There seems to be moon based things going on in Islam that I don't understand.Maybe, it is because we don't have blind faith.
Uhm, do you mean blind faith as in believing the moon was spilt without evidence?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
Peace be unto you
Very well .اقتباس:
on one level.. Not a lot, in this particular miracle Jesus was not proving to mankind His validity as a prophet.. he was bringing to the understanding of the disciples of who He was. Which as per our belief was more than a prophet. We're going to differ here... Each to their own and all that.
It tells us to believe in REAL prophets . That includes the ones Quran named and ones it didn't name . And for the record , prophet Muhammad peace upon him is the last of the prophets and messengers with the last message to mankind . Anyone who shows up after that claiming prophecy is a false one to us by default .اقتباس:
interesting point.. Does the Quran tell you how to distinguish between a true and false prophet as the Bible does? I thought it claimed you should believe and trust in all prophets. We know false prophets can also have miracles and signs.. Not all miracles are from God.
I didn't say it is .اقتباس:
my faith is not blind.. It is based on the Spirit of truth that is God.
We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .اقتباس:
You can't prove faith.. Faith is what you have in the absence of logic. How can you ever hope for God and all God is to conform to human understanding and logic? So how can you prove to me that Islam is truth?
Pandora , you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .
I see .اقتباس:
never said I didn't accept it in Islam. I may have said the reasons in Islam as to why it happened may differ.. But the recording event itself I have no issues with.
To clear things , I seem to have been unclear . In Arabic , the word "Maal" means whatever a person owns . I thought it can be translated to "financially" . Thus , if the word means "Cash" , I went in the wrong direction .اقتباس:
financially.. No way as God does not deal in cash. materially.. Again doubtful.. As that implies storing up treasures on earth which do not benefit anyone in eternity. Bodily.. That may be pertinent.. Because as our time on earth we are body.. As that body contains our spirit and the spirit being the concern of God, then a miracle should be considered to hold some benefit to the body..
Weather it be bringing understanding of how best to live our lives ensuring our spirit returns to our creator in good state. Or the understanding through using our body, mind and spirit to best serve mankind and further enlightenment and understanding of God. I see that has a place and a benefit.
I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .اقتباس:
I am supposing nothing. There is no evidence that this happened. It would be written and documented in independent sources and known world wide like the flood of Noah recorded in all cultures. The splitting of the moon would've cause tidal flooding all around the world, and billions of people groups, tongues, nations, and languages would have seen the moon spilt and documented it. If some remote people saw it happen, I would take it to have been an illusion. Besides, faith doesn't require one to see God's power, and when God does something supernatural or a miracle, it is for a good reason and not just to show off His power. We know by faith God has power, and those who don't have faith even if they see God's miracles they will still not believe. So what is the point of splitting the moon, and what is it with the crescent moon over the Mosques? There seems to be moon based things going on in Islam that I don't understand.
First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :
[IMG]http://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm[/url]
And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :
Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :اقتباس:
" There is a Persian manuscript illumination which shows a similar white mountain (in the background) and a mountain covered with flowers and fruit (as veggies), and a weird gash in the earth behind a man who is looking at a split faced moon similar to those found in the Madrid Codex on the top register of pages 91-92 and 93. 1
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg/300px-Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg[/IMG]
Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :
اقتباس:
اقتباس:
Dear :
I have located the manuscript you are interested in. The shelf mark is
IO ISLAMIC 2807 and the section you want is on pages 81 verso - 104
verso (inclusive). It is entitled “” Qissat Shakruti Firmadwhich,
according to the catalogue (Loth 1044), is “A fabulous account of the
first settlement of the Muhammadans in Malabar, under King Shakruti
(Cranganore), a contemporary of Muhammad, who was converted to Islam by
the miracle of the division of the the moon.”
Should you wish to order a microfilm or paper copy see
http://www.bl.uk/services/copy/reproduction.html
for prices and method
of ordering and payment.
For further enquiries on photography you should contact
reproductions-customer-service@bl.uk,
quoting in all correspondence the
shelfmark IO ISLAMIC 2807, pages 81 verso- 104 verso and your full
postal address.
Sincerely
Colin Baker
Dr Colin F Baker
Head of Near and Middle Eastern Collections
The British Library
Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections
96 Euston Road
London NW1 2DB
T +44 (0)20 7412 7645
F +44 (0)20 7412 7858
colin.baker@bl.uk
www.bl.uk
So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .
Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .
And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :
And :اقتباس:
2:189 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is [in] one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors. And fear Allah that you may succeed.
And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :اقتباس:
14:33 And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day.
The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?اقتباس:
41:37 And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.
Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .اقتباس:
Uhm, do you mean blind faith as in believing the moon was spilt without evidence?
So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة نصير الدين
[/QUOTE]
Does it give you a criteria by which to judge the true from the false?
Ok then.. No problemo.اقتباس:
I didn't say it is .
with all due respect, majority opinion is not a measure of logic. Scientific and numerical miracles are found in all areas of life, and certainly in relation to mathematical sequences they can be found in all books within word patterns. They are not miraculous in themselves. Otherwise if we were to find the same numerical sequences in say.. The works of Shakespeare then are we to take it his works are if divine origin? Don't think so. I do so agree with your last comment.. How it speaks to the pure nature of the heart.. That can be used as a measure of divinity. I get exactly that from the Bible and Christianity.اقتباس:
We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .
maybe I did not explain well.. I meant by relying on logical proofs that conform to our understanding of science, logic etc. in current time. Then if and when someone in the future comes along and proves that wrong then your basis for belief could crumble. If you have pure faith, that God is all powerful nothing can assail that because you cannot prove it by means of human understanding. For the simple reason God will always be beyond our understanding except for that which God chooses to reveal to us. It's for God to determine who is on the right path.. We can claim what we like the ultimate knowledge is Gods and Gods alone. For me this moment in time God has chosen for me Christianity and given me my faith in Jesus as my redeemer the the guidance of the Spirit. For you you have been sent on a different path... That we choose to question and explore that "path" on our journey is good for then we can be sure we have not been... As the saying goes.... Slipped a custard. ;)اقتباس:
Pandora , you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .
I see .
Fair enough.. I just hope you got my point that such things are of no importance to God, what we do with them if we have them may be... But the possession of them ..not at all.اقتباس:
To clear things , I seem to have been unclear . In Arabic , the word "Maal" means whatever a person owns . I thought it can be translated to "financially" . Thus , if the word means "Cash" , I went in the wrong direction .
[/QUOTE]I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .
First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :
[IMG]http://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm[/url]
And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :
Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg/300px-Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg[/IMG]
Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :
So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .
Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .
And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :
And :
And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :
The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?
Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .
So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .
all I can say on this last section of your post is.... It must be a man thing!!!! Tut..
Blessings upon you