The forgotten person in the trinity : The Holy Spirit

عرض للطباعة

عرض 30 مشاركات من هذا الموضوع لكل صفحة

23-08-2014, 09:06 PM
huria

The forgotten person in the trinity : The Holy Spirit

Christians theologians assure us that the members of the trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit } are co-equal. However, when we read the New Testament, a somewhat different picture emerges. We find that both the father, and the son mentioned together frequently but the mention of the holy spirit is ignored, like it doesn’t even exist , if they are co-equal, shouldn’t he be mentioned with them equally?

Shall we see some example?

"Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord". 1 Timothy 1:2

"To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord". 2 Timothy 1:2

Why has Paul left out The Holy Spirit of these greetings??

It is clear that Paul doesn't consider the Holy Spirit as a deity.

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". 1 John 1:3

Why did Paul mention Fellowship with God the Father and the Son, and neglect to mention the Holy spirit ( don't we agree that no one should be left out? )

.
" Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son". 1 John 2:22
" Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:23

Paul doesn’t tell us the consequences of denying the Holy Spirit? Even though blasphemy against, the Holy Spirit is unforgivable

"Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the
beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father". 1 John 2:24

No Holy Spirit?

We understand who ever loves the Father must also love his Son but how about the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that bias against him?

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Jesus, and nothing from the Holy Spirit?

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son". 2 John 1:9

If you hold firmly to what you were taught, both the Father, and the Son will be with you. How about the Holy Spirit, and why isn't he mentioned here?

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him". Luke 10:22

Look at the verse no one know who the Father is except the Son, which means the holy spirit doesn't know the father , because if he knows him the verse would have said “the Father is except the Son, and the Holy Spirit”

Isn't that logical?

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten ,Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". John 1:18

Which means, the Holy Spirit never seen the father, let alone recognize him . If you tell me that the Father is the Son, and he is the Holy Spirit that will be Sabellianism heresy.

" The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands". John 3:35

Does this mean, that the Holy Spirit own nothing, as the Father placed everything in the hand of the Son, how is he a God then?

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19

Can the Holy Spirit do anything by himself or he needs the orders from the Father?

For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.5:20

Why does the Son get special treatment? Why doesn't the father tell us that he loves the Holy Spirit ,and he will show him great amazing things too?

" that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him". John 5:23

How about honoring the Holy Spirit? Isn't he co-equal with them? This is really not fair!!!

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself". John 5:26

I want to find one verse where that Father gave something to the Holy Spirit, it seems only the Son gets everything.

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you" John 17

The Father glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, and no mention of the holy spirit.

Do you now believe me, when I say the Holy Spirit is the forgotten one?

This thread is translated from this original thread in Arabic
24-08-2014, 01:25 AM
ابو طارق

أحسنتِ أحسن الله إليك
24-08-2014, 01:11 PM
huria

بارك الله فيك ياابو طارق
24-08-2014, 10:38 PM
مجدي فوزي

عمل ممتاز ، جزاكم الله خيرا
24-08-2014, 11:27 PM
محمد سني 1989

جزاكي الله خير

This is interesting since we also do not find any clear passage in the new testament of trinity. Not one single passage in the bible which says that the father , the son and the holy spirit are three in one god

And your point brings up this question : How did the early christians look at the holy spirit ???

From the texts which sister huria showed us we see no sign of the divinity of the holy ghost !!!

It is missing !!
25-08-2014, 12:39 AM
huria

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة مجدي فوزي

عمل ممتاز ، جزاكم الله خيرا

واياكم أخي الكريم، الفضل لله ثم لموضوعك القيم ، أسأل الله أن ينفع به

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة محمد سني 1989

جزاكي الله خير

This is interesting since we also do not find any clear passage in the new testament of trinity. Not one single passage in the bible which says that the father , the son and the holy spirit are three in one god

And your point brings up this question : How did the early christians look at the holy spirit ???

From the texts which sister huria showed us we see no sign of the divinity of the holy ghost !!!

It is missing !!

واياكم أخي الكريم
Yes brother true, no single passage about the fake trinity, and the only one was a fabricated one that been taken out on most bibles. Nevertheless some Christians still quote it !!

Christians even amongst themselves don’t unanimously agree that on the trinity Some sects, like Jehovah’s Witnesses, deny this fundamental pillar of Christianity and yet all sects follow the same book. Contrast with Islamic Tawheed, no matter how deviant any Muslim sect is, we all agree on this core pillar of Islam!
25-08-2014, 01:27 AM
pandora

I am sorry I am not allowed to answer this thread.
29-08-2014, 12:02 AM
huria

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

I am sorry I am not allowed to answer this thread.

Sure you can, whenever you finish with one of the threads you busy with, and we would love your great evidences you will present to us, why was the Holy Spirit ignored from most passages with the other two Gods he is apparently equal with .
01-09-2014, 06:14 PM
pandora

Firstly I would like if I may to establish that no where in scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to as a person ... And the term person when used is no more than a human means to present the fact there are three aspects to God in the Christian faith. You know this to be called trinity.. We have already established that the word trinity is not to be found in the Bible and we do not teach it, nor does our understanding or belief in the concept have any baring on our salvation. I do not wish this thread to degenerate into yet another pointless debate about your interpretations of the trinity or your attempts to refute its truth or insult it. It's not an issue. . . .The Christian Creeds do not speak of "three Persons" as though they were three Gods.... Which you constantly allude to. We are not Polytheists but Trinitarians... That is .. we believe in "a Trinity in Unity, and Unity in Trinity." God is ONE and nowhere in the Bible does it teach any differently and nowhere in the Bible does Jesus teach other than this. I see the nature of this thread could be spiritually dangerous for me as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.. Already you have made light of the matter with the flippant tone of your title and nature of the post. So needs must tread careful. You should know that the Holy Spirit is NOT a created being.. It is God, as Jesus is Gods word incarnate then the Spirit is Gods will by which he communes understanding with His creation. The Holy Spirit is present with either God the father or the Jesus His word as they exist in unity.
This rather makes your claim of the Spirit being "left out" a moot point as wherever God the Father or Jesus are so is the Spirit. To mention God is to the acknowledge the Spirit to mention Jesus is to acknowledge the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2

God’s wisdom revealed by the Spirit...
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

‘What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived’–
the things God has prepared for those who love him –
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

‘Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?’
But we have the mind of Christ.
My remarks in red...

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria

Christians theologians assure us that the members of the trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit } are co-equal. However, when we read the New Testament, a somewhat different picture emerges. We find that both the father, and the son mentioned together frequently but the mention of the holy spirit is ignored, like it doesn’t even exist , if they are co-equal, shouldn’t he be mentioned with them equally?

Shall we see some example?

"Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord". 1 Timothy 1:2

"To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord". 2 Timothy 1:2

Why has Paul left out The Holy Spirit of these greetings??

It is clear that Paul doesn't consider the Holy Spirit as a deity.

As mentioned above to acknowledge one is to acknowledge all. The Holy Spirit is not considered A deity ... But the Deity.. As God. As Paul is considered to be author of Corinthians it's clear from the above verse what Paul believed and taught about the Spirit.

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". 1 John 1:3

Why did Paul mention Fellowship with God the Father and the Son, and neglect to mention the Holy spirit ( don't we agree that no one should be left out? )

Same above applies here.. And no one has been left out.
.
" Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son". 1 John 2:22
" Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:23

Paul doesn’t tell us the consequences of denying the Holy Spirit? Even though blasphemy against, the Holy Spirit is unforgivable

What has the verses above (John) got to do with the teachings of Paul? The Bible is clear that blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable. Which shows that the Spirit has to be of God and uncreated because as blasphemy against God is a sin then why should the lesser sin of blasphemy against a creation.. For example an angel.. Carry an equal weight and be unforgivable?

"Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the
beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father". 1 John 2:24

No Holy Spirit?

We understand who ever loves the Father must also love his Son but how about the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that bias against him?

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Jesus, and nothing from the Holy Spirit?

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son". 2 John 1:9

If you hold firmly to what you were taught, both the Father, and the Son will be with you. How about the Holy Spirit, and why isn't he mentioned here?

These points are covered by above... To acknowledge one is to acknowledge all. It's a given that the Spirit is of God.

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him". Luke 10:22

Look at the verse no one know who the Father is except the Son, which means the holy spirit doesn't know the father , because if he knows him the verse would have said “the Father is except the Son, and the Holy Spirit”

If the Spirit is of God, and a means by which God communicates understanding to His creation.. Then how can it follow that God does not know Himself..!!! Does this fit into our acceptance of God being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent? You are looking at the Spirit as an individual like a separate god. This is how you see it .. not as Christians believe it to be. So you cannot judge us in error based on your own misunderstanding...
Isn't that logical?

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten ,Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". John 1:18

Which means, the Holy Spirit never seen the father, let alone recognize him . If you tell me that the Father is the Son, and he is the Holy Spirit that will be Sabellianism heresy.

Again you are seeing the Holy Spirit as a person. God is Spirit God is Holy ergo Holy Spirit.

" The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands". John 3:35

Does this mean, that the Holy Spirit own nothing, as the Father placed everything in the hand of the Son, how is he a God then?

What are you saying!!!! It's not about ownership.. Everything of God belongs to God.. Except that which God decides to give elsewhere. Which in this case God GIVES authority to Jesus as His word, by His word everything was created. Gods word by which we shall be judged. Again to repeat ... The Holy Spirit is not seen as A god.

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19

Can the Holy Spirit do anything by himself or he needs the orders from the Father?

Do you order yourself around? Do you tell yourself to do something you wish to do? Or do you just go ahead make the decision and do it.

For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.5:20

Why does the Son get special treatment? Why doesn't the father tell us that he loves the Holy Spirit ,and he will show him great amazing things too?

" that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him". John 5:23

How about honoring the Holy Spirit? Isn't he co-equal with them? This is really not fair!!!

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself". John 5:26

I want to find one verse where that Father gave something to the Holy Spirit, it seems only the Son gets everything.
These comments are borderline blasphemy in their mocking tone. I choose not to answer.

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you" John 17

The Father glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, and no mention of the holy spirit.

Do you now believe me, when I say the Holy Spirit is the forgotten one?

This thread is translated from this original thread in Arabic

to forget the Spirit is to forget God. Your article is based on your understanding of what the Holy Spirit is or is not. It does not address any issues in regards to Gods Spirit.. Which I should not be surprised seeing as you believe the Holy Spirit to be an angel. The absence of the Holy Spirit in Islam... For me equals a lack of spirituality. As God is concerned with the Spiritual that is of concern to me.

Peace unto you.
02-09-2014, 12:06 AM
محمد سني 1989

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

We have already established that the word trinity is not to be found in the Bible and we do not teach it, nor does our understanding or belief in the concept have any baring on our salvation.

The fact that trinity is nowhere to be foind in the bible makes it a human comcept not of a divine origin

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

The Christian Creeds do not speak of "three Persons" as though they were three Gods.... Which you constantly allude to. We are not Polytheists but Trinitarians...

In concept and origin Trinity=polythiesm

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

. I see the nature of this thread could be spiritually dangerous for me as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.

Tell that to Constantine and the christians who were in the council of Nicea .

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

You should know that the Holy Spirit is NOT a created being.. It is God, as Jesus is Gods word incarnate then the Spirit is Gods will by which he communes understanding with His creation.

Thank you for your words in red I will comment on it soon , and everbody will see how it is actually paganism

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

The Holy Spirit is present with either God the father or the Jesus His word as they exist in unity.
This rather makes your claim of the Spirit being "left out" a moot point as wherever God the Father or Jesus are so is the Spirit. To mention God is to the acknowledge the Spirit to mention Jesus is to acknowledge the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2

God’s wisdom revealed by the Spirit...
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

‘What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived’–
the things God has prepared for those who love him –
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

Things about God revealed by the spirit . Two separate enitities

Spirit who is from God. The spirit sent from God two separate enitities

No where in the text you mentioned states hat the spirit is God or part of God , rather the text clearly distincts between the two

The person with the spirit , this brings us back to :

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

The holy Ghost in this context is distinct from the father and Jesus and no where within that context is that the holy spirit is part of god anywhere

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

to forget the Spirit is to forget God. Your article is based on your understanding of what the Holy Spirit is or is not. It does not address any issues in regards to Gods Spirit..
Peace unto you.

Well this is contradicted by what you said earlier :

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

You should know that the Holy Spirit is NOT a created being.. It is God, as Jesus is Gods word incarnate then the Spirit is Gods will by which he communes understanding with His creation. The Holy Spirit is present with either God the father or the Jesus His word as they exist in unity.

Here you are clearly stating that the Holy spirit is God !!!! and in another sentence you describe the holy spirit exists with God the father meaning two separate persons !!!!! If they were really one God according to your understanding you would have said with the father , the son as one God , but the facth of the matter is you said it !!! proving our point.

I see your statement here as the best answer for your own claim on us when you said:

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

The Christian Creeds do not speak of "three Persons" as though they were three Gods.... Which you constantly allude to

This itself is a contradictory response

Also According to christian theology they are three distinct persons :

[TD="class: vcol"]Believe in the Trinity of God. Three persons in one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit[/TD]

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Catholic_vs_Protestant

They are three distinct persons according to christians in one God , however your denial of this comes from the fact that you know the reprocussions of such statement which is the fact that it is easy to switch persons with divine beings according to the writer of the gospel of John in John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The actual greek translation for the word theos is divine

so the statement actually is and the word was with God and the word was divine

indicating Two divine separate persons not two in one as you claimed

Now to comment on your comments :

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

As mentioned above to acknowledge one is to acknowledge all. The Holy Spirit is not considered A deity ... But the Deity.. As God. As Paul is considered to be author of Corinthians it's clear from the above verse what Paul believed and taught about the Spirit.

Where is your proof !!!!! This is your initial claim

The passage clearly stated the father and the son but not the holy spirit !!!!! so is acknowledging two as acknowledging three?????

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

What has the verses above (John) got to do with the teachings of Paul? The Bible is clear that blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable. Which shows that the Spirit has to be of God and uncreated because as blasphemy against God is a sin then why should the lesser sin of blasphemy against a creation.. For example an angel.. Carry an equal weight and be unforgivable?

The question is why did paul disregard the holy spirit in his writtings !!!! It is because the text never mentioned it :
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 2: 22-23

Nothing here describes the denial of the holy spirit nor the heresy in denying it !!!!. That is why Paul neglected the Holy ghost because its divinity was still not established by christians and thus no trinity !!!!
No way did paul according to his writtings give the same importance of the father and son to the holy ghost !!! As can be seen above

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

If the Spirit is of God, and a means by which God communicates understanding to His creation.. Then how can it follow that God does not know Himself..!!! Does this fit into our acceptance of God being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent? You are looking at the Spirit as an individual like a separate god. This is how you see it .. not as Christians believe it to be. So you cannot judge us in error based on your own misunderstanding...

This logic is twisted because it is based on the fact that the holy spirit is god which is what we are debating!!!!

How could god not know himself!!!!???

That is an honest question which you should ask yourself .

If the holy spirit was god then how could the passage states that no one knows the father except the son !!!!! You are under two options:

1.Either the holy spirit is not part of god nor is god

OR

2. There is a clear contradiction in your belief

There cannot be a third possibility

اقتباس:

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora

Again you are seeing the Holy Spirit as a person. God is Spirit God is Holy ergo Holy Spirit

Then where is it in the passage again we only see the father (god) and the son thats it !!!!! nothing more nothing less!!!!

عرض 30 مشاركات من هذا الموضوع لكل صفحة