حواري مع نصراني

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حواري مع نصراني

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الموضوع: حواري مع نصراني

  1. #1
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي حواري مع نصراني

    هذا الحوار جرى على المسنجر مع أحد النصارى باللغة الانكليزية .. أرجو أن تعم الفائدة


    disenio_moroleon: hello, God bless you

    DEXTER: Hi ,. May God guide us all to the Truth

    DEXTER: how are u ?

    disenio_moroleon: fine thank you, what is your name

    DEXTER: I am Wael ..26m .. u ?

    disenio_moroleon: alex,33m, from mexico

    disenio_moroleon: i see you are interested in God

    DEXTER: nice to chat with u Alex

    DEXTER: yeah I am ..

    DEXTER: so ?

    disenio_moroleon: if i can help you in any question you have, i would be pleased

    DEXTER: yeah gimme a minute

    disenio_moroleon: ok

    DEXTER: now tell me . what do u know about God ?

    disenio_moroleon: well, only what the bible states, are you christian ?

    DEXTER: not really.. but am interested in christianity

    disenio_moroleon: thats a good step

    DEXTER: good .. so we agree on this point , that whatever the Bible states , and not what others do

    DEXTER: do we agree on that or not?

    disenio_moroleon: yes, loke for example:the nature of God is spirit
    disenio_moroleon: and God is love
    disenio_moroleon: he created you because he wants to love you
    disenio_moroleon: in fact He loves you
    disenio_moroleon: just as you are

    DEXTER: yeah .. i do not want to talk about what He loves and Hates .. actually i wanna know the nature of God and who is God , from the Bible and not from what others say

    disenio_moroleon: everything i am going to tell you is in the bible
    DEXTER: do not forget to say the verse and chapter
    DEXTER: because i wanna check it out too .. and discuss it
    DEXTER: and what version u are using
    disenio_moroleon: i use a version called reyna-valera
    disenio_moroleon: it,s in spanish
    disenio_moroleon: i am mexican
    DEXTER: yeah. but lets use an english one .. shall we ?
    disenio_moroleon: and i suggest that you visit a christian church
    disenio_moroleon: they always have the answers we need, because they use the bible
    DEXTER: i hope u are good at english the way i am .. English is not my mother-tongue ..
    disenio_moroleon: neither is mine
    DEXTER: thats too bad . do u mean we are not gonna talk about God ?
    disenio_moroleon: what is your first language
    disenio_moroleon: ?
    DEXTER: Arabic
    disenio_moroleon: and wher do you live
    DEXTER: middle east . Syria
    disenio_moroleon: *where
    disenio_moroleon: God bless you friend
    disenio_moroleon: this is not a coincidence
    DEXTER: Thanks . so can we discuss it out together ?
    disenio_moroleon: i was praying God to allow me to speak to someone like you
    DEXTER: hmm
    disenio_moroleon: did you know in jesus all countries are saved and in grace
    disenio_moroleon: everybody
    DEXTER: look .. lets talk about God from the Scripture .. do not think that ur telling me somethings without reference means that i shall believe .. remember . am not christian
    disenio_moroleon: and i am aware that this is a challenge for you to believe
    DEXTER: yeah
    disenio_moroleon: i will say it again
    disenio_moroleon: everithing i am telling you is in the bible
    DEXTER: explain to me from the scripture .. no reference , to creed . I hope we are clear about that .
    disenio_moroleon: in the first and second book of the bible
    DEXTER: i shall ask Qs and u help me in finding the reference in the Bible .
    DEXTER: is that ok ?
    disenio_moroleon: the old and new testament
    disenio_moroleon: feel free to ask any specific thing
    DEXTER: good .
    disenio_moroleon: i dont have a bible with me right now
    DEXTER: christians beleive that God is Trinity is that right ?
    disenio_moroleon: but i will not lie to you
    disenio_moroleon: and i can give you that information later
    disenio_moroleon: yes
    disenio_moroleon: three different persons
    disenio_moroleon: but one God
    disenio_moroleon: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
    disenio_moroleon: may i add you up ?
    DEXTER: aha
    disenio_moroleon: ok, what else, do you want to know
    DEXTER: but u have just said three not one God !
    DEXTER: Father is 1 , Son is 2 , Holy Ghost is 3
    al diazgerrero: only one God, three different persons
    DEXTER: am not getting that
    DEXTER: what do u mean ?
    al diazgerrero: well actually
    al diazgerrero: that is something no man can understand completely
    al diazgerrero: but i can give you an example
    DEXTER: why ? the Bible said that God is not {the author} of confusion !!
    al diazgerrero: in Genesis
    al diazgerrero: the first book
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: of the bible
    al diazgerrero: God says:
    al diazgerrero: "lets create man"
    DEXTER: lets create man in our image ,, thats what the verse says
    al diazgerrero: can you see, He says -"lets"-
    al diazgerrero: the word -"lets"- is plural
    DEXTER: thank u .. but i wanna ask something . the origianl lang. for the old testiment is in Herbow .. right ?
    al diazgerrero: He does not say "i will create...
    al diazgerrero: i beleive so
    DEXTER: good . then u seem to be completely ignorant about this language ..
    al diazgerrero: in Hebrew
    al diazgerrero: yes i am
    al diazgerrero: i am not hebrew
    DEXTER: because this (S) or plural is also in Arabic is used for respect ..
    DEXTER: when i talk to my boss in arabic i talk to him in plural form .. and he is still one !
    DEXTER: and Herbow is the same also
    al diazgerrero: thats interesting
    al diazgerrero: but can i give you an example
    al diazgerrero: God almighty is the creator, and as a Creator he is the authority
    DEXTER: do the jews believe in Trinity ? they understand Herbow more than me and u !!
    al diazgerrero: let me tell you that the word trinity never appears in the bible
    DEXTER: exactly and that is more confusing!
    DEXTER: we said : no reference , no creed //
    al diazgerrero: why are you confused, if the bible's main message is that God loves us
    DEXTER: good . and i wanna know who is God and what he is !
    DEXTER: the first commandment is: O Israel , Your Lord is One God , therefore love thee God with all your heart and all your MIND !
    al diazgerrero: and in the same way when some bible writters, describe somtimes the Holy Ghost, others the Son or the Verb, many other times the father
    al diazgerrero: God is an organization
    DEXTER: see !! we have to love God with our minds too and that means we should use the mind and not ignore it in knowing the nature of God
    al diazgerrero: you know that like in a country like mine, here in mexico there is only one governmetn
    al diazgerrero: government
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: one
    al diazgerrero: but inside this ONE government there are three powers
    al diazgerrero: Executive, Legislative, and Juditial
    al diazgerrero: three different powers, one government, each independent from one another, but still one same government
    al diazgerrero: is that confussing
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: good . i wanna ask asomething now please
    al diazgerrero: did you get the idea
    DEXTER: may i ask somethin ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    al diazgerrero: please, ask
    DEXTER: good .
    DEXTER: what does Trinity mean ? it means as the creed of Nicea mentoined: Father is God , Son is God, Holy Spirit is God , and they are not three Gods, but One God .
    DEXTER: is that right ?
    al diazgerrero: trinity means three
    DEXTER: this is the creed of Nicea . is that right or wrong ?
    al diazgerrero: those creeds were written by catholics in there councils
    DEXTER: so ?
    DEXTER: is it right or wrong ?
    al diazgerrero: but for true chrisian beleviers it really doesn;t matter what men writes, we only have for valid what the bible says
    DEXTER: good . if trinity is not in the Bible , where did they got it from ?
    DEXTER: haven't we agreed that no reference , no creed! ?
    al diazgerrero: the catholic capital is in italy
    al diazgerrero: in rome
    DEXTER: i don't care if it was on the moon
    al diazgerrero: and they used a language called latin
    DEXTER: is trinity in the Bible or not ?
    al diazgerrero: in latin trinity is 3
    DEXTER: if not , who did u know that God is Trinity ?
    al diazgerrero: can i say somthing?
    DEXTER: what verse did say: God is Trinity ?
    DEXTER: sure go on
    al diazgerrero: i said before that no where
    al diazgerrero: there are to main kind of beleviers
    DEXTER: if such a crucial matter is not in the Bible , then how did u know that God is Trinity ?
    al diazgerrero: this will explain many things, pay attention
    al diazgerrero: the bishop of rome the pope
    al diazgerrero: he is an authority in himself, for the people that beleive what they say
    al diazgerrero: they are the catholics
    DEXTER: my friend , i do not care what the pope said .. i wanna know what the Bible said !!
    DEXTER: does the pope knows God more than God himself ?
    al diazgerrero: and they say, write and do many things that are not written and authorized by God
    al diazgerrero: unfortunattely yes, the vatican says that he is like God here on earth
    DEXTER: my friend do not try to go round and round . i know about christianity more than u think ! please answer me .. u said in the beginning: i know God from the Bible.. and u said that God is Trinity , then where does it say that ? is that difficult ?
    al diazgerrero: take it easy
    DEXTER: is God that disabled to tell us the truth about himslef? am not sure about that. am trust me i am so cool
    al diazgerrero: ok
    al diazgerrero: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible
    al diazgerrero: and if you read the bible
    DEXTER: i read it more than the Pope himself .
    al diazgerrero: it shouldnt be so difficult to see that the hole bible leads us to something very important: Jesuschrist
    DEXTER: good . u have just said very important statement: all the information that GOD wants to reveal to men is written in the bible!! now where is Trinity in the Bible ?!
    al diazgerrero: he is the answer
    al diazgerrero: he said: I am the way, the truth, and life
    al diazgerrero: you can not reach God except through me
    al diazgerrero: it is not religion, it is a relationship with God through Jesus
    DEXTER: if there is not a single reference in the Bible that God is Trinity , then there is only two answers for that puzzle : either God is One in absolute and not Trinity , or there are three Gods as we have just seen !
    DEXTER: imagine !! not a single verse to tell us that God is Trinity or three persons !
    al diazgerrero: and if you confesse with your mouth that you beleive in jesuschrist, and allow him to live inside of you He promised to send the Holy Spirit, who will help you understand His words
    DEXTER: u are going far away from the subject ..
    DEXTER: lets keep to the trinity
    al diazgerrero: probably from the subject, but not from gods will, because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere
    DEXTER: good . u are contradicting urself now : because he tells us to announce this words to the people everywhere.. now tell me . where is Trinity in his words ?
    al diazgerrero: i said before that the word trinity is not in the text
    DEXTER: how can u believe in it if it is not there ? is God trinity or not ?
    al diazgerrero: god himself never commanded me to beleive in that specific word
    DEXTER: then what is he commanded us to believe ?
    al diazgerrero: that he is the living God
    DEXTER: forget the word . it is not in the Bible.. now tell me .. where did the Bible say that God is three persons but One God ?
    al diazgerrero: and that there is no other god
    al diazgerrero: and then he commands us to love
    al diazgerrero: to love our neighbor us we love ourselves
    DEXTER: before He commands me of anything , I must undurstand God , know who He is , is He One or more .. u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: the bible never says that
    DEXTER: isn't that His First Commandment? to Love thee Lord with all thee minds ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: before telling anyting , He commanded me to undertand God .. to use my mind
    DEXTER: so lets Love God with all our mind .. shall we?
    al diazgerrero: yes in that order it means that you have to love him with all your sincere capacity
    al diazgerrero: because in you mind are your thoughts
    DEXTER: exactly . i wanna love God in the frist place before going to anohter point . and e commanded me to love Him in all my mind .
    al diazgerrero: you should think of God as often as possible
    DEXTER: I believe in God , my friend . but maybe not the way you do , and thats why I am here with u
    al diazgerrero: for example everytime you are said or worried, or a problems does not go away
    al diazgerrero: you should first of all think of God
    DEXTER: I do .. trust me . and because of that , am trying to look for the nature of God in the Bible
    al diazgerrero: because he is more important, and the most imprtant thing in life because he is life
    DEXTER: is he ONE or THREE? ONE IN a TRINITY? HOW DID U KNOW THAT ?
    al diazgerrero: i thought we were going to leave that word behind
    DEXTER: ONE IN THREE PERSONS << is that better ?
    al diazgerrero: there is the mistery because God can not divide himself
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: if He can not devide himself , then why three persons ?
    DEXTER: why not 1 perosn ?
    DEXTER: as He is ONE
    al diazgerrero: i think it is better to say that there are three persons in one God
    DEXTER: Three persons in ONE GOD >> explain it how it could be
    al diazgerrero: can i tell you something
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: do you know where sin started
    DEXTER: my sins?
    al diazgerrero: no
    al diazgerrero: not your personal or my personal sins
    DEXTER: and do not change the subject . we are talking about God not sins. i know the so-called original sin ..
    al diazgerrero: i mean Sin
    al diazgerrero: where
    DEXTER: i want to ask u someting too ..
    al diazgerrero: where did it begin
    DEXTER: did u eat from the apple that Adam ate ?
    DEXTER: do u know its taste ?
    DEXTER: is it difficult to understand ?
    al diazgerrero: one minute please
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: u there?
    DEXTER: hello ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    al diazgerrero: i am at my work
    al diazgerrero: and was in to something
    DEXTER: ok me too . take ur time .. i understand .
    al diazgerrero: but i am back now
    DEXTER: w/b
    al diazgerrero: i was remembering that in the bible nothing is sais of an apple
    al diazgerrero: *said
    al diazgerrero: it is written of a fruit
    al diazgerrero: but let me tell you that Sin did not start there
    DEXTER: whatever ..
    DEXTER: fruit or apple
    DEXTER: did u eat that apple ?
    DEXTER: do u know how it tastes ?
    al diazgerrero: hehehe, you wer checking it out right
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: no i was busy at work
    al diazgerrero: you think i ma trying to fool you
    DEXTER: no am trying to discuss it out .
    DEXTER: I wanna love God with all my mind . this is the first commandment . remember ?
    al diazgerrero: i would never lie to you
    al diazgerrero: yes and that is something good, but according to the new testament
    DEXTER: good . so did u eat that fruit? this is the second run from my Qs right now
    al diazgerrero: jesuschrist is the way remeber
    al diazgerrero: *remember
    al diazgerrero: Sin did not start there
    DEXTER: then where tell me
    al diazgerrero: in heaven, with the disobedience of the rebel angel called lucifer
    DEXTER: ok .. do we hold responsibilty for this ?
    al diazgerrero: our responsability is not to ignore the attacks of him
    DEXTER: good . now tell me.. are we responsible for Adam eatin that fruit ?
    DEXTER: ha ? are we or not ?
    DEXTER: still there ?
    DEXTER: hello ?
    al diazgerrero: sorry friend
    al diazgerrero: i was busy suddenly
    DEXTER: its ok
    DEXTER: i understand .
    DEXTER: so are u gonna asnwer me frankly and tell me no lies ?
    al diazgerrero: in the garden there was also the tree of life
    DEXTER: my friend , I know the story trust me
    DEXTER: i just wanna know : are we responsible for that sin or not?
    al diazgerrero: and when adam disobeid, he lost his right to be there, and so his family, when they could not eat from the tree of life, then is when the death process started
    al diazgerrero: thats why we inherit death
    DEXTER: do u mean that death is because of that sin ?
    al diazgerrero: yes, the pay of sin is death
    DEXTER: then tell me , why do animals die ?
    DEXTER: did they eat from that fruit too ?
    al diazgerrero: interesting
    al diazgerrero: yes, all the creatures
    DEXTER: ??!!!
    al diazgerrero: thats why the bible says that the earth suffers at one, like a living organism
    DEXTER: what all creatuers ?
    al diazgerrero: all means all
    DEXTER: they all ate from that fruit ?
    al diazgerrero: i could not asure that, but i can tell you this, before sin appeared, there were not even thorns in this world,it was perfectly beautiful
    al diazgerrero: and thats why when Jesus was killed that he wore in his head a crown of thorns, to undo the curse
    DEXTER: then how can u tell me that we inherit death because of the fruit , while all other creatures die too ? u pormised to tell the truth
    al diazgerrero: we inherit death because of the sin of disobedience, because God was clear to adam, he was warned
    DEXTER: see now !!!: two pillars of chrsitianity u were anable to proove for me !
    DEXTER: and do animals disobey God too ?
    DEXTER: because every creature dies .. that means , all creatures disobey God
    al diazgerrero: animals, are like babies, they don't know annything
    DEXTER: that means: they do not disobey God !!
    DEXTER: then why they die ?
    al diazgerrero: because they live in this same world
    DEXTER: no my friend that is not the reason . if God was mad at me , then He will not curse u because u are living in the same wolrd .
    DEXTER: that is not fair .. and God does is the absolutely fair . is He?
    al diazgerrero: it is written that all the world suffers at one, because of the wikcedness of sin, not because of your wikcedness
    DEXTER: why do I have to suffer for somethig i did not do ? is that fair or not? just answer me .. is it fair or not ?
    al diazgerrero: i think that God knows what he is doing
    al diazgerrero: in His own way,because he loves us
    al diazgerrero: if he let His own Son die, he surely wants you to participate in this task
    DEXTER: that is a great word : He loves us .. then why should we pay penelty for something we did not do ?
    DEXTER: if u love ur son , then u will not punish him for what the son of ur friend did .. !
    al diazgerrero: and why did Jesus suffer ?
    DEXTER: thats what i wanna know!
    DEXTER: for what ?
    al diazgerrero: because he loves us, and he does not want us to die for ever
    DEXTER: if he loves us, then why should i die for something i did not do ?
    DEXTER: did u eat from that fruit? no neither did I .. then that is not fair
    al diazgerrero: do you want to be a part of his plans?
    DEXTER: i want to stick to his commandments . : to love my Lord with all my mind
    DEXTER: this is God's first commandment . i wanna practice it
    al diazgerrero: that means you want to stick to his plans, because you can not love and disobey at the same time
    DEXTER: look . the first is first .. do not tell me to love others while first commandment is not yet practiced
    DEXTER: i wanna know God with all my mind to love Him .. thats why i wanna know if i hold responsibilty fir something i did not do ..
    DEXTER: if He shoulders me soemthing I did not do , then I know now one of God's sides, and that is He is not fair.
    al diazgerrero: one moment please
    DEXTER: ok tyt
    al diazgerrero: you are free to think whatever you like, but the truth is that you are alive right
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and maybe he "unfairly gave you the gift of life"
    DEXTER: ? what do u mean ?
    al diazgerrero: well you are saying God is unfair
    DEXTER: NO! Never . God is the MOST FAIR .
    DEXTER: if God is not Fair , then who esle is ?
    al diazgerrero: ok, friend
    al diazgerrero: then watch your words
    DEXTER: I am am trying to understand origoanl sin thats all
    al diazgerrero: the original sin is disobedience
    al diazgerrero: and you are no longer in that curse of the original sin once you accept Jesus in your life
    DEXTER: but u have just disobeyed God !!
    al diazgerrero: why
    al diazgerrero: how
    DEXTER: God's first commandment is : LOVE THEE LORD WITH ALL THEE MIND.. and u are telling me to accept something that is not logic!
    DEXTER: if God is Fair , then why I am responsible for something i did not do ?
    al diazgerrero: what is not logic, do you think god is logic, he is not humanly logic
    DEXTER: If God is not humanly logic , then how does He commands me to love him with all my mind ?
    al diazgerrero: because he has the right to, he is your creator
    DEXTER: if I do not understand Him , then this command has a false one !
    al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
    DEXTER: or there is no original sin nor trinity as u could not proove
    al diazgerrero: do you not understand him at all ?
    DEXTER: I do understand him ,. maybe better than christians themselves
    DEXTER: but what I do not understand is the pillars of Christianity
    al diazgerrero: ok, thats good
    DEXTER: Trinity, Original Sin .. as far
    DEXTER: and yet u are not making me love God with all my mind , but asking me to have Blind faith ,
    DEXTER: and that is not what God wants .
    DEXTER: He wants me to love Him with all my mind
    al diazgerrero: ok, i think, you don't need my help...
    al diazgerrero: you are smarter than me
    DEXTER: why ? are all chrsitians unable to proove Trinity from the Bible? that means this is not true! it means this is a false creed ..
    DEXTER: if there is not a single verse for it !! then why should I believe in it!!? just because the Pope said that ? i do not worship the Pope .. but my creator ..
    al diazgerrero: well why don't you enlighten me
    al diazgerrero: yes,that is good, we should only woreship our Lord almighty
    DEXTER: good then we agree now
    DEXTER: that means: I should not believe in someting unless God said that clearly .
    DEXTER: for example :
    DEXTER: God said in countless places that He is ONE!
    DEXTER: that means :: He is ONE! and not any other thing rather than ONE!
    DEXTER: is it clear? ONE means: ONE in everything ..
    DEXTER: and since there is not a single verse that validates Trinity or that three persons are merged or all are one , then how can I take it for granted ?
    DEXTER: God never said that .. then I should not beleive in something God did not say!
    DEXTER: in that way , I love God with all my mind
    al diazgerrero: have you ever read the evangelism of john
    DEXTER: only that way , I practice the first commandment ONLY!
    DEXTER: I wanna read the Bible .. not anything esle!
    al diazgerrero: well that book is inside the bible
    DEXTER: I wanna know God from the Bible .. because if it is not in the Bible , then it should not be anywhere esle
    و الحوار مازال مستمراً
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  2. #2
    الصورة الرمزية Xx_Youri_xX
    Xx_Youri_xX غير متواجد حالياً عضو
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Aug 2005
    المشاركات
    421
    آخر نشاط
    05-10-2007
    على الساعة
    10:49 PM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    بارك الله فيك أخي الكريم .. ولكن لا تدعنا ننتظر بقية هذا الحوار الشائق

  3. #3
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    السلام عليكم .. هذا حوار آخر دار مع احد الاشخاص .. و اظنه هندوسي و الله اعلم .. و انتهى بالفرار حاملا معه ذيول الذل و الهزيمة ..


    DEXTER: hi
    enjoywithme762000: hi
    enjoywithme762000: asl
    DEXTER: 26 m .. u ?
    enjoywithme762000: same
    DEXTER: wow . same age too ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    DEXTER: good . u said u have a different point of view .. may i know it ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya definitely
    enjoywithme762000: i do beleive in a god but in different god
    DEXTER: be more specific
    enjoywithme762000: god does not do bad or good
    enjoywithme762000: god is above of doing good or bad
    DEXTER: umm . and who is God then ? Jesus ?
    enjoywithme762000: god is one who is above this thinking of doing good or bad
    enjoywithme762000: doing good or bad is rask of human beings nor good
    enjoywithme762000: is the task of human beings
    DEXTER: i see ..
    DEXTER: and u are not a christian as i see
    enjoywithme762000: i do not follow any particilar relegion
    enjoywithme762000: i have my own concept
    DEXTER: hmm . and ur thought came from ?
    DEXTER: using ur mind ?
    enjoywithme762000: by seeing and observimg this world
    DEXTER: i see
    DEXTER: now we agree to some points
    DEXTER: that God is not against mind . right?
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    DEXTER: good . u have gone as far as possible good for a human being
    DEXTER: now tell me my friend
    enjoywithme762000: if good has the power to good and bad ---it will make everybody happy
    enjoywithme762000: why it would like to see his children in sad condirion
    DEXTER: accroding to ur observation , do u think that God who created this Univese is unable to fulfill his will in this planet?
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    DEXTER: is He unable or not ?
    enjoywithme762000: does not do it
    DEXTER: i am talking about ability ,
    DEXTER: not about reality
    enjoywithme762000: u can treat this as -unable
    DEXTER: now the one who created all this universe with accurate measures.. is unable to do what He wills ?is that logic ? we said we are gonna use our minds
    enjoywithme762000: if god is able to do anyrhing then this world should run according to his will
    enjoywithme762000: is that the will of god that there should be suffreing in rhe world
    DEXTER: i have something for u to watch with me . ok ? so gimme good attentoin to this ok ?
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: good
    DEXTER: now we are as humans, are free to do whatever we want .. and we hve a somplete free will over ourlives .
    DEXTER: right ?
    DEXTER: do we have a complete free will ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya definitely
    DEXTER: u beleive whatever u want and i do the same . and no one to say no.. that is absolutely true
    DEXTER: now .. in this picture , we can see that God is not interferring anything . just leaving us the way we will
    DEXTER: right or wrong ?
    enjoywithme762000: but whatever be beleive must have some logic as we have some mind
    DEXTER: exactly and we are gonna use this mind to find the truth about God ..
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    DEXTER: His pure truth .. i am happy that we agree to use our minds .
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: now tell me my dear friend , do we have will over everything in this Universe ?
    enjoywithme762000: no
    DEXTER: good answer .. that is true .
    DEXTER: we still have no free will against many things . and death is a good example for it
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    enjoywithme762000: i agree to it
    DEXTER: who moves the planets and gave the sun its power to light up our days ?
    DEXTER: isn't He God ?
    DEXTER: who grows the plants and creates whatever He wants? isn't He God?
    DEXTER: some ppl come white and others are black . .
    DEXTER: isn't He God who creates them the way He wants ?
    DEXTER: ha ?
    enjoywithme762000: no if there is good then and he is able to do somerhing first he will kill people like alkaida/terrorist
    enjoywithme762000: why innocent people should die?
    DEXTER: we shall check that later . lets keep up the way we are now
    enjoywithme762000: at rhe will of god?
    enjoywithme762000: why god does not change the mind of terrorist
    enjoywithme762000: if has the real power to change he will never allow the wrong rhings in the world
    enjoywithme762000: why he would want that his innocent people should be killed by devils
    DEXTER: we said that we shall check on that later ,, shall we keep up the way we are ?
    enjoywithme762000: if he has the power why doesnt he change all wromg people into good one
    DEXTER: i defenitly have good answers for u later.
    DEXTER: now i will repeat .
    DEXTER: does God have still some power over many things in this Universe or not ?
    enjoywithme762000: there is no god who controls this world--this is autonatic and runs on ones deed--one get result according ro his deed
    enjoywithme762000: automaric
    enjoywithme762000: to
    DEXTER: but still though some rules controlling the Universe , right ?
    enjoywithme762000: yes definitely
    DEXTER: like Gravity and many other things .
    enjoywithme762000: but that is not god
    enjoywithme762000: dont name it god
    DEXTER: and these rules are controlling this Universe and holding it from collasping , right or wrong
    DEXTER: ?
    DEXTER: ha ? right or wrong ?
    enjoywithme762000: every particle in rhis world is independent but bonded due to its deed
    DEXTER: u are excaping the answer . why ? we said we are gonna use our minds !
    DEXTER: escaping **
    enjoywithme762000: what is death ---it ia change of soul from one shape to another
    DEXTER: my dear , u are jumping from one topic to another ..
    DEXTER: i wanna concentrate with u on something
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: fine
    DEXTER: now answer my Q .. there are still many rules that control the Universe and holding it from collasping ..
    DEXTER: right or wrong ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya and people name it god
    DEXTER: forget about the name now .
    DEXTER: we are watching together now
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: watching and using our minds. thats all
    DEXTER: now .. every Rule in all this Universe , there must be something or someone who put this rule , and it is defenitely did not come from itself . because this possibility is ZERO .. right ?
    enjoywithme762000: no
    DEXTER: is there a possibility for it to come from itslef ?
    DEXTER: without any outsider force ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya some rules are self made
    DEXTER: ok .. we are gonna concenrate on this point .
    DEXTER: i wanna tell u something happened to me . and it is true.. I hope u believe me on this
    enjoywithme762000: if somebody has made these rule then who made the one who made these rules
    DEXTER: this thing happened to me as a watcher like u , and it happened infront of my eyes
    DEXTER: shall we see what happened to me as a watcher?
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: good .
    DEXTER: i live in a place where desert is the most part of my country ,
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and one day , i decided to walk in the desert alone ,, just by myself ..
    DEXTER: i started watching and i used my mind in this watch ..
    DEXTER: i wnet too far that no civilization can be seen .
    DEXTER: not humans nothing .
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and i stood on a heap of sand looking around ..
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and i saw something very wonderful
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: no one ever believed me on this . but i believe it was true
    DEXTER: there was some trees on the easten side of the horizon ,..
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and some rocks and moutains on the opposite side of the horizon
    DEXTER: and sudennly ,,
    DEXTER: some winds took off some trees and shaped from it wodden plates .. !!
    DEXTER: i saw that infront of my eyes .. just by itself .
    DEXTER: and some other winds took some rockes too in a shape of cubes!!
    DEXTER: just like that .. so suddenlly . !!
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: the rockes and stones were in a fantastic shape of cubes like that were coming from a factory !
    DEXTER: and the woods were in the shape of plates as if they are coming out of a factory !!
    DEXTER: just like that !! all by itself .
    DEXTER: and the most wonderful thing happened then!!
    DEXTER: just listen!
    enjoywithme762000: so what is wrong in it any matter change its form from time to time--some suddenly and sime slowly
    DEXTER: then the wind took these wood plates just near me and some rocks in the shape of cubes also
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and some water mixed with soil and sudennly the winds started building a house out of these plates and rocks !!
    DEXTER: imagine that !! a house is self built just infront of my eyes !! i hope u believe me
    enjoywithme762000: ya
    DEXTER: there was no one there to do that !! just the wnids !! and random movement .
    DEXTER: i saw the house being built by no body .. just some random movement !!
    DEXTER: stone by stone and plate by plate ..
    enjoywithme762000: it can happen
    DEXTER: till it was 3 floor building . !!
    enjoywithme762000: ok
    DEXTER: and suddenly , some leeves from the trees came to do the ceiling !!
    DEXTER: trust me am telling the truth
    DEXTER: i was still standing astonished
    enjoywithme762000: tell finally what u want to say
    DEXTER: and then .. decorations were made and some firnitures too
    enjoywithme762000: such incident may happen
    DEXTER: furnitures**
    DEXTER: and after the wind stopped , i sent inside this building , and saw that it was a 3 floor building with 6 apparments !
    DEXTER: with ladders and furnitures from the finest Quality
    DEXTER: there was kitchen and stuff man needs to live in it !!
    DEXTER: and believe me , I am still living in that house till today
    DEXTER: my family and I moved there
    DEXTER: we are six families living in the self-built house and it is stronger than the ones in the city
    DEXTER: we bought nothing from the market !! because everything was just there !1
    DEXTER: plates and spoons and everything . imagine !! even a TV was there just byitself . 26 inches !!
    DEXTER: i hope u believe me , do u ?
    enjoywithme762000: so what u must have done sonerhing good in ur past or in ur last birth which result came now
    enjoywithme762000: good deeds always pays
    DEXTER: is that to mean : u believe me ?
    DEXTER:
    DEXTER: we said we are gonna use our minds
    enjoywithme762000: it can happen and may not also depends on ones deed/kaema
    enjoywithme762000: karma
    DEXTER: so i was telling the truth logically ..
    enjoywithme762000: what one has done in past
    DEXTER: see how u are changing the subject !!
    DEXTER: am asking about this fact as a watcher .. not as a Hindu or christian or Muslim!
    DEXTER: we are now watcher .. right ? using our mids only .
    DEXTER: right?
    DEXTER: minds**
    enjoywithme762000: it can happen
    DEXTER: it can happn logically ? and u are saying that we are still watchers !!! and we are still using our minds !!
    enjoywithme762000: but i could not get what u want to convey
    DEXTER: i was telling u the exact details !!!!
    DEXTER: a TV was there also .. IMagine !!!!
    DEXTER: no one made it ,. but by itself
    DEXTER: now is that logically true or not ? do u believe honstly that I am telling the truth ?
    enjoywithme762000: ya no body makes also --matter change its form
    enjoywithme762000: stone can change to building shape
    DEXTER: aha
    enjoywithme762000: trees may take shape of wood plates
    DEXTER: and infront of my eyes? ina two hour time ?
    enjoywithme762000: what is wromg in it
    DEXTER: what about building 3 floors ?
    enjoywithme762000: it changes shape infront of my eyes also
    DEXTER: what about the furnitures!! what about spoons and plates and the TV !
    DEXTER: am I telling the truth to u as a watcher as we said ?
    DEXTER: remember ,. we are using our minds now
    DEXTER: is it logic ? can a small kid believe that ?
    DEXTER: only insane ppl would believe what I say .. do u agree or not
    enjoywithme762000: ya if he think like me
    DEXTER: so u agree that this is logic !
    DEXTER: a selfbuilt Tv and Furnitures and 3 floors building stronger than the ones in the cities
    DEXTER: u agree to this thing using ur mind ?
    DEXTER: forget about ur faith .. we sais we are watchers now . using our minds !
    DEXTER: said**
    DEXTER: are u agraid to say that it is not logic?
    DEXTER: afraid**
    DEXTER: ha ? tell me !
    DEXTER: logic or not!
    BUZZ!!!
    DEXTER: are u running away from using ur mind!! ?
    DEXTER: or u are weaker than admitting that u were wrong !
    DEXTER: and u know what I mean

    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  4. #4
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    أنقل لكم تتمة للحوار الشيق الذي دار بيني و بين النصراني المذكور في بداية مشاركتي هذه .. لقد انتهى هذا الحوار اليوم بنهاية مفجعة بعد أن أثقلت عليه الضربات فكانت آخرها التي قسمت ظهره و انهت الحوار بخروجه صامتاً من المسنجر دونما تعليق واحد !!
    و الآن أترككم مع تفاصي الحوار :


    al diazgerrero: goodmorning
    DEXTER: ohhh hhii .. i was away
    DEXTER: am sorry
    DEXTER: good morning to u
    DEXTER: how are u ?
    DEXTER: are u still there ?
    al diazgerrero: God bless you dex
    DEXTER: Thanks , and may God guide us all
    DEXTER: so whats up ?
    al diazgerrero: how are you today i don't have time right now to talk very much, i am in the middle of something, but i wanted to say hello,
    DEXTER: ko i see. am fine thanks.. have u thought of our conversation last time?
    al diazgerrero: yes, very much
    DEXTER: and what do u think ? do I make some sense ?
    al diazgerrero: i think, think that what is imporant is that you feel good and be happy with what you beleive
    DEXTER: I still have so many things to say ,, we have just begun .. and am sure we will find something at the end . something very intersteing that might change ourlives forever and we find true salvation for our souls
    DEXTER: so whenever u feel free , let me know . am here for another 5 hours
    al diazgerrero: well i found Jesus, (he found me) and i feel greatful for that, and for the truth he has revealed to me
    DEXTER: we shall check that later . it is a long talk in that topic .. and i prefer we keep up the same way to check the reality of this statement ..
    al diazgerrero: i dont intend to convince you of what i beleive in, i just want you to know that we should accept each other just the way we are, even though sometimes we dont agree in everything, that doesn't mean we can't be friends
    DEXTER: sure ..
    al diazgerrero:
    DEXTER: do we have sometime to check on something now ?
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: ok .. last time we talked about two important tthings .
    DEXTER: one of them was Trinity .. and we found that neither it makes any sense nor we found any validation for this doctrine .
    DEXTER: and that makes it a false one ..
    DEXTER: do we agree on that ?
    al diazgerrero: well, the doctrine of the 3 persons in one god is true, according to the 1letter of john
    DEXTER: and what does this verse say ?
    al diazgerrero: let me check ok, i am going to look in an on-line bible
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: are u talking about the three witnesses ?
    al diazgerrero: let me see
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: is this the verse u are talking about : For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
    al diazgerrero: yes and then after that it states those those three are one
    DEXTER: u seem to be quite ignorant of your Bible !!! am sorry to say that but it is true ..
    DEXTER: if u go and check this verse in all modern Bibles u will never find it
    al diazgerrero: i knew you were going to say that hahahaha
    DEXTER: why ? it is not there in the Revised Standard Version
    DEXTER: u see !! u are unable to validate this doctrine !! and yet u believe it is true!
    al diazgerrero: you know something
    DEXTER: yeah
    al diazgerrero: do you remember the passage where martha was busy while maria was at the feet of jesus listening to him
    DEXTER: hmm where was that ?
    al diazgerrero: what jesus says is that very few things are important
    DEXTER: what did he say ?
    al diazgerrero: that few things are important
    DEXTER: ? am not getting ur point
    DEXTER: u there ?
    al diazgerrero: someone called me, exxcuse me. i am back
    al diazgerrero: you should read the passage for yourself
    al diazgerrero: these to women were the sisters of lazaro
    al diazgerrero: the one that jesus brought back to life
    DEXTER: where was that ? what book ? what verse ?
    al diazgerrero: i don't remember right now the chapter or verse, but what it tells me
    DEXTER: ok .. what does it say ?
    al diazgerrero: is that for meanings of salvation you do not to beleive everything, and it is not necessary to have useless discussions
    DEXTER: yeah yeah ,, that is in John's Gospel
    al diazgerrero: *do not have to beleive everything
    DEXTER: lemmi check this strange statement ,. Hold on !!
    al diazgerrero: the only tru important thing is to listen to Him
    al diazgerrero: ok?
    al diazgerrero: i said that is what i understand in that message
    al diazgerrero: my "own" comprehension
    DEXTER: ok gimme time to check on it
    al diazgerrero: go on
    DEXTER: now i got the chapter .. which verse are u talkin about ?
    DEXTER: is it in the same chatpter of bringing the dead man alive ?
    al diazgerrero: when Jesus was in there house, one of the women prefered to do the housekeeping while the other decided to listen to Him
    al diazgerrero: and besides that the woman that was cleaning the house was in a very bad mood
    DEXTER: what verse is that ? could u please help me ? i can not find such a statement
    al diazgerrero: let me check ok
    DEXTER: ok
    al diazgerrero: one minute please
    DEXTER: it is chapter 11 , John
    DEXTER: there is no such a verse , right ?
    al diazgerrero: not there, i did not say it was in the same chapter or book where the miracle was made
    al diazgerrero: i am looking somwhere else
    DEXTER: ok .. take ur time ..
    DEXTER: but trust me Jesus never made such a statement telling others to have blind faith . rather he was always there in the middle of crowds reasoning the Jews and never asked for blind faith
    al diazgerrero: i am not speaking of blind faith,
    al diazgerrero: may i ask you something ?
    DEXTER: yeah sure
    al diazgerrero: in time of sorrow, what do you prefer, a word of wisdom or a word of love
    DEXTER: am not getting the point
    DEXTER: and what has this to do with that ?
    al diazgerrero: that God is the truth, and also love
    al diazgerrero: and where the spirit of God is there is also liberty
    DEXTER: Exactly .. and se should not neglect that He is the truth besides being Love !
    DEXTER: if He is the trueth , then shy should we adopt doctrines God never mentioend ?
    al diazgerrero: but my friend...Love is the truth
    DEXTER: if Love is the same as using our mind, then there was no need for the first commandment to be the way it is: to Love thee Lord with all thee HEART AND MIND !!!
    DEXTER: This AND means that we have to use our minds too in this love .
    DEXTER: and using this mind means that we should not accept anything anyone says !! unless it is validated by God !
    al diazgerrero: yes but it also means that we need to learn
    al diazgerrero: we learn with our mind
    al diazgerrero: we can't do something we ignore
    DEXTER: and what is the first source for this task of learning ? isn't it Gd's word ?
    al diazgerrero: and learning is a process that lasts a liftime
    DEXTER: While God never mentioned that He was 3 in 1 . why should we say that ?
    DEXTER: Is God that disabled to state this very important statement ?
    DEXTER: no!
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: then , Trinity , or three persons in one , are nothing but an addition the word of God !
    al diazgerrero: let's think you are right
    al diazgerrero: what next
    al diazgerrero: what is your point
    DEXTER: just like the three wintesses are added to the Bible after 10 centuries of Jesus departure, that means christianity is not as genuine as we think it is . and we have to look and search to realize the truth between the lines
    DEXTER: i hope that u be patient with me my friend .
    al diazgerrero: hey, i like you as a friend
    DEXTER: and trust me , am not trying to unglorify Jesus .. no! because He said: who Loves me keeps my words
    al diazgerrero: but i beleive in jesuschrist
    DEXTER: and I am trying to keep Jesus's words
    DEXTER: and I believe in Jesus Christ too and I wanna know what Jesus really said !
    al diazgerrero: and i dont need your guidance
    DEXTER: so do we agree that Three persons in one is not a valid doctrine in the Bible and it is just an addition to it ?
    al diazgerrero: what he did or said is in the bible
    DEXTER: u sound angry at me
    al diazgerrero: i am not
    al diazgerrero: i just don;t understand why something like beleiving in the love of God is the cause of so many steril discussions
    DEXTER: I wanna love God .. and Jesus said : IF u love me , u keep my words .. and that means: if we do not keep his words , then we do not love him . .do u undertand the seriousity of this statement ?
    al diazgerrero: if you are convinced of what you beleive that should be enough for you, i am convinced about what i read in the bible
    al diazgerrero: keeping his words means obedience
    al diazgerrero: to obey his words
    DEXTER: that is a very important statement u made : i am convinced about what i read in the bible .. and where did u find the three persons in the Bible ?
    al diazgerrero: and i don't think you are ignorant
    DEXTER: not ignorant at all . hopefully
    al diazgerrero: where i told you before, at the beginning of our chat
    DEXTER: so tell me .. do we agree or do we not , that this doctrine is not genuine and was added to christianity later on
    DEXTER: because either we prrove it , or we ignore it
    al diazgerrero: many things were added later
    al diazgerrero: many
    DEXTER: exactly!!!! many !! and we are gonna find out the true religion of Jesus Christ ..
    DEXTER: the truth about his message !
    al diazgerrero: many books were written, and it was necesary to choose from the books that were inspired by god and those that were not
    al diazgerrero: the letter of santiago says
    al diazgerrero: that the true religion is to visit widows and feed and dress the orphans
    DEXTER: and that can never be done except we see what he did or say .. only then we know what Jesus really wanted us to believe
    DEXTER: let me ask u something .. and that is very logic ..
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: if I want to know what George Bush said , where do I search in the first place ?
    DEXTER: do I search in the writings of someone esle ?
    DEXTER: no! the first place to search is the writings of George Bush himslef
    al diazgerrero: it is diffrent becuase Jesuschrist never wrote anything
    al diazgerrero: by himself
    DEXTER: yeah i agree ..
    DEXTER: and that is my point! He never wrote anything, but ppl wrote down what he said .
    al diazgerrero: and very little
    al diazgerrero: becuase he was with them for three long years
    DEXTER: so if Jesus said that God is one and never mentioned that God is three persons in one .. then someone comes and says that Jesus ment to say this statement , but he was unable to say it . would we believe that?
    al diazgerrero: and i don't think that in three years Jesus did only what is written but many more things
    DEXTER: the first source to look is the sayings and deed of Jesus Christ .
    DEXTER: if it is not there , then it should not be anywhere else !! is that right or what ?
    al diazgerrero: what jesus said, when an apostole asked him to show them the Father, he aswered clearly: I have been all this time with you, and you still don't recognize me?
    DEXTER: so u want to move to discuss scriptures ?
    DEXTER: just to concentrate on something ..
    DEXTER: shall we move to this step ? have we hand enough for the first step ?
    al diazgerrero: i am only chatting with you
    al diazgerrero: you tell me i tell you
    DEXTER: yeah .. I am too and wanna seek the truth with you if u don't mind
    DEXTER: u said that many things were added to the message of Jesus , and we wanna check it out together . what do u say ?
    DEXTER: in that way we know what we loved our Lord with both our hearts and minds
    al diazgerrero: i never said that words were adde
    al diazgerrero: added
    DEXTER: and if i am disturbing u , them i am sorry .. we can stop whenever u want .
    al diazgerrero: books -new- books were written
    DEXTER: and statements also were added to these books .. just like the three wintesses were added to validate Trinity
    al diazgerrero: after the old testament 27 new books were added those are the new testament
    DEXTER: so tell me . are u with me in this Journey of truth seeking ?
    DEXTER: u may wuite whenever u feel am wrong
    al diazgerrero: everyday
    DEXTER: quite**
    al diazgerrero: i seek the truth through the word of god
    DEXTER: or u can reason me . the way I shall reason u .. just like theLord said in Isaiah
    al diazgerrero: and the word -bible-
    DEXTER: we shall seek the truth in the Bible too . not outside resources
    al diazgerrero: never contradicts itself
    DEXTER: thats why , whatever outside the Bible should not be taken
    DEXTER: do we agree on this ?
    al diazgerrero: i never read anything else than the bible when i am seeking the truth
    DEXTER: u have made a very clear and inportant statement : the Word of God never contradict itself !! that is one of the most importnat things we shall depend on in our seeking the truth in the Bible . do we agree ?
    DEXTER: do we agree or not ?
    al diazgerrero: i think that you are still seeking while i already found
    DEXTER: does that mean u do not wanna reason me ? am I talking nonesense ?
    al diazgerrero: no, i am hera to listen to you
    DEXTER: thank you a lot my friend
    al diazgerrero: *hear
    al diazgerrero: here to listen
    DEXTER: so. as we have just said , Three persons in One is not in the Bible . therefore , this is not a genuine doctrine that Jesus preached ..
    al diazgerrero: did you know that God is Supernatural
    al diazgerrero: what Jesus preached was love
    al diazgerrero: love
    DEXTER: that is the first step in our research
    DEXTER: we shall check on this statement in our chat
    DEXTER: so now . tell me .. did Jesus preach the original sin ?
    al diazgerrero: wait please
    DEXTER: ok tyt
    al diazgerrero: something obvious...
    al diazgerrero: do you believe in Jesus
    al diazgerrero: i ask
    DEXTER: just in the rate I believe in God . if I do not believe in Jesus , then I do not believe in God
    DEXTER: I believe in Jesus, Moses , Abraham , Noah and all other prophets of God whom He sent
    DEXTER: I deny none !
    al diazgerrero: have you ever confessed it with your mouthi a prayer
    DEXTER: more than 5 times aday
    al diazgerrero: *in a prayer
    DEXTER: in all sitiuations
    al diazgerrero: read the letter to the romans in chapter ten
    DEXTER: here now I tell u : I beleive in God , Jesus , Moses, Abraham and other prophets God sent
    al diazgerrero: verse 9
    DEXTER: lemmi check it
    DEXTER: this is the saying of Paul .. not Jesus !
    DEXTER: i wanna know what Jesus said ..
    DEXTER: what Jesus preached
    DEXTER: in his whole missionary life he never mentioned this statement
    DEXTER: in all his missionary life he never asked ppl to stick to other things rather to keep the commandments .. whenever Jesus was asked for the path for salvaion , he said : keep the commandments .
    al diazgerrero: one moment
    DEXTER: and Jesus himself was the best example for keeping the commandment that he kept for 33 years and never broke any .. and never ever mentioned that he was God , or asked ppl to worship him , or asked ppl to believe in his atonement on the cross ..
    DEXTER: he never said that we should throw the commandments away that he kept his whole life through 33 years .. and when someone asked him for PERFECTION , what did he say??? He say : Sell your belongings !! see! e never mentioned any belief in his atonement on the cross . he never mentioned that we only have to believe him on corss atoning for our sins and we get the true salvation .. but asked us to keep the commandments .. only that ! keep the comadments !! not to believe in his atonement on the cross
    al diazgerrero: 1 min pls*
    DEXTER: take ur time
    التعديل الأخير تم بواسطة الفارقليط ; 21-09-2005 الساعة 08:58 PM
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  5. #5
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    al diazgerrero: 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

    al diazgerrero: 2 timothy3:16

    al diazgerrero: i was looking for this scripture to give it to you

    DEXTER: even if someone contradicted Jesus Christ ?

    al diazgerrero: it clearly states: All scripture is inspired by God

    al diazgerrero: i am not saying it, it is written

    al diazgerrero: even if sometimes we don't agree, it certainly is the word of The lord

    al diazgerrero: Lord

    DEXTER: who is the Christ ? Jesus or Paul? if we are to follow Jesus , then I should know what he said . only then we can allow ourselves to see others saying and writing thousands of pages on it .. but if Jesus did not say that , then how can we attribute it to Jesus ?

    al diazgerrero: paul was a minister of Jesus

    al diazgerrero: a servant can not contradict the one he serves, friend

    DEXTER: yes this verse says : all scriptures . and this verse was written in the first centuary when the new testiment was not yet identified . the Gospel of Baranab was one of the scriptures and yet it is not considered as wor dof God

    DEXTER: word*

    DEXTER: the new testiment was chosen in the thrid century and not in the time of this verse .

    al diazgerrero: yes, only 27 books were considered as authentic

    al diazgerrero: yes, i am aware of all this, i have been through this topic to many times, i know exactly how you feel

    DEXTER: see considered as authentic .. who has the right to consider someting the word of God ?

    al diazgerrero: but guess what there is absolutely no problem

    DEXTER: did the four Gospels say that they are inspired ?

    DEXTER: no !! it was said so after 3 centuries from Jesus' departure!! then how can we check what Paul ment by this verse, if at that time , there was not yet any book considered authentic!

    DEXTER: do u know what i mean ?

    al diazgerrero: that's the great thing about the bible

    DEXTER: the GREAT thing about the BIBLE? which Bible are u talking about ? KJV ? RSV ? the Bible of the Catholics or the Protostants ?

    DEXTER: and u know what I mean

    DEXTER: each version is not the same as another ..

    al diazgerrero: wich one do you read ?

    DEXTER: the first thing to know : which one is the word of God TRUELY ?

    DEXTER: it does not matter which one do I read ! but I wanna know which is Word of God !

    al diazgerrero: well you can tell if the tree is good by its fruit

    DEXTER: exactly !!!

    DEXTER: and what was the friut of Paul ? he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep in all his 33 years on thi splanet !

    al diazgerrero: why do you say that

    DEXTER: i will tell u why :

    al diazgerrero: yes?

    DEXTER: give me a second to get the exact word in english

    al diazgerrero: ok

    DEXTER: Jesus himself observed every single aspect of the religion of Moses steadfastly and uncompromisingly. He fasted as Moses fasted, he worshipped as Moses worshipped, he refrained from tasting a single pig, he believed in circumcision and himself was circumcised, he observed the Sabbath, never having violated it. He did this up until the crucifixion. It was only after the crucifixion, according to the Bible, that he allegedly returned in “visions” to Paul in order to nullify the law he had spent his whole life upholding. The Bible actually bears witness that during his lifetime, Jesus commanded his followers to follow the religion of Moses and threatened severe retribution from God for all of his followers who would forsake a single aspect of this religion UNTIL THE END OF TIME!

    DEXTER: while Paul never did what Jesus asked us to do !! he Threw all this awya !

    DEXTER: away*

    al diazgerrero: i think you are right

    al diazgerrero: but

    al diazgerrero: you need to understand something carefully

    DEXTER: aha

    al diazgerrero: there where two "laws"

    DEXTER: ???

    al diazgerrero: the ritual

    al diazgerrero: law

    al diazgerrero: all of the instructions of how to do a correct sacrifice of the sheep

    DEXTER: ok

    al diazgerrero: and the moral law

    al diazgerrero: this Law

    al diazgerrero: the moral law

    al diazgerrero: are the 10 commandments

    DEXTER: yeah .

    al diazgerrero: these 10 will never pass

    al diazgerrero: never

    DEXTER: ?

    al diazgerrero: but

    DEXTER: what do u mean ?

    DEXTER: u mean pass away . i got u

    al diazgerrero: the other law was perfactly accomplished by Jesus , and so it was concluded because he consumed it as he himself was the perfect sacrifice

    DEXTER: but what ? i will tell u : Paul ordered us to let them pass away ,, that is the truth

    al diazgerrero: because all the ceremony and ritual was justa a simbol and figure of what it was originally written

    DEXTER: while JEsus spent his whole life keeping the commandments , Paul comes and tells us that they were a curse on us !! a CURSE ??

    DEXTER: Jesus never ate Pig , while Paul asked us to do so !!

    DEXTER: Jesus sticked to the 10 commandments while Paul threw them away !! he asked nothing but faith !!

    DEXTER: that is the fruit of Paul

    DEXTER: and what makes us follow what Paul says ?

    DEXTER: he did not even saw Jesus .

    DEXTER: he was not there when Jesus preached !

    al diazgerrero: he was speaking of the curse of the law of sin

    DEXTER: my dear friend, Paul made Jesus as a curse !! imagine Jesus is a curse ! and all what Jesus kept in his whole life was a curse !! while jesus asked us to follow the commandments and keep them till the end of time and mentioned nothin about his atonement , Paul then comes and tells us that what Jesus did threw his whole life was invain !!

    al diazgerrero: and there is this fact that paul was meant to be an apostole of the people that were not born jeew

    al diazgerrero: *jew

    DEXTER: why ? did Jesus ever preached other than the Jews ?

    al diazgerrero: because the jew were meant to be the nation of God, but as they rejected jesus, god chose us, to become his new nation

    DEXTER: Jesus said that he was sent only for the lost sheeps of Israel !

    al diazgerrero: it is written that the good judge starts in his house

    DEXTER: and Jesus always made sure that his message does not go out for others than the Jews ..

    al diazgerrero: he started has you say

    al diazgerrero: but what about when he preached to the woman of samaria

    al diazgerrero: and the roman centurion

    DEXTER: what did he tell that woman ? he told her that she is like a dog to him !! only because she was not jewish

    DEXTER: and because she instisted he did what he wanted . and he did not preached her , but performed a miricle for her

    al diazgerrero: the woman from canaan

    al diazgerrero: that was the woman from canaan

    DEXTER: thats all .. he never told her , believe in me on the cross atoning for ur sins!

    al diazgerrero: i mean the woman that was taking out water

    DEXTER: hmm .. lemmi check this

    DEXTER: do u remember what verse is that ? or what chapter ?

    al diazgerrero: sorry friend i am not good at numbers

    DEXTER: ok

    al diazgerrero: i will try from now on to write those down for you

    DEXTER: so tell me now . if Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross , and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times , and he never mentioned any origianl sin , and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God , and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us , rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime .. after all of tha t, does anyone has the right to say these things and atribute them to Jesus without any proof from his side ?

    DEXTER: If Paul never saw JEsus face , and never knew him , how can he tell that the one who saw was really Jesus ? not the Satan in some vision to astray ppl from the true message of Jesus ?

    al diazgerrero: i don't understand it's a long question...

    DEXTER: i will say that again

    DEXTER: Jesus never preached that he was a curse on the cross and that he attoned our sins on the cross .. and kept all his life the 10 commandments and asked us to keep them till the end of times .. and he never mentioned any origianl sin ...and he said nothing about 3 persons in One God .. and he said nothing that the Law of Moses was a curse upon us.. rather he kept the Law of moses through all his lifetime..

    DEXTER: after all of that !! Does anyone have the rigth to say things that Jesus never said or preached and attribute them to Jesus without any proof ?

    DEXTER: IF we love Jesus then we follow him .. not what others falsely say !

    al diazgerrero: i beleieve that people like paul or someother author, did not write something different, what they did was explain a little more the teachings of Jesus christ

    al diazgerrero: pay attention

    al diazgerrero: did you know that once paul argued with peter ?

    DEXTER: not really . enlighten me please

    al diazgerrero: because, the instructions of jesus were clear: beleive in Him, receive him in there heart, baptize, and regret...

    al diazgerrero: am i being clear?

    DEXTER: yeah sure

    al diazgerrero: but the apostoles, and jesus himself was jew

    DEXTER: u mean from all this , that Paul was clearifying for us the true sayings and deeds of JEsus

    DEXTER: isn't that right ?

    al diazgerrero: and peter made the mistake of telling the new converted that they had to practice the circumcission

    DEXTER: mistake ???? Jesus practiced that for God's sake!! and he was sinless .. wasn't he!!

    al diazgerrero: and some other ritual practices of the old jew religion

    al diazgerrero: yes jesus praticed it

    DEXTER: then do not tell me it was a mistake!

    al diazgerrero: because he was before all things obedient

    al diazgerrero: peter's mistake yes

    DEXTER: or Jesus then made a mistake . and I think u do not agree!!

    al diazgerrero: becuase for instance, i am not jew

    DEXTER: u are a christian , see: Christ--ian .. and that is supposed to mean that u follow the Chrsit and not Paulian : Paul--ian !! u know what I mean?

    DEXTER: id JEsus practiced that , then that means we have to do that since he never said that we do not have to do i t!

    al diazgerrero: you know what my problem is right now, that my english in christian matter is very poor, and it is difficult for me to explain to you what i have learned in spanish

    DEXTER: i can help u in that

    al diazgerrero: but i agree with you in the way that you feel

    DEXTER: so tell me .what prrof did Paul give to validate the true sayings of his ?

    DEXTER: proof**

    al diazgerrero: john says that any spirit that confesses jesuschrist as the lord is saying the truth

    al diazgerrero: that recognizes that He came in flesh

    al diazgerrero: paul did not see him with his flesh eyes

    DEXTER: my darling , that is not enough simplly because :

    al diazgerrero: but by faith, because the things we can not see are eternal

    DEXTER: Islam confessed that Jesus was the Christ , and confessed that Jesus was born miriculously , confessed that he was the Messiah ,,. in that concept we must all follow what Islam says !

    al diazgerrero: i think that what paul wrote were some simple instructions for the churches he was

    al diazgerrero: opening

    DEXTER: so is that enough for us to believe ?

    al diazgerrero: the islam is antichristian, becuase it denyes that christ is god

    al diazgerrero: they think of jesus as a mesiah

    DEXTER: yes .. and we shall talk about this matter later on

    DEXTER: the Devinety of Jesus is a matter to be checked later on

    al diazgerrero: the truth is that paul was not even born inside the jew nation

    DEXTER: no my dear !! he was a jewish !

    al diazgerrero: he was born somewhere in italy called tarso

    DEXTER: and he tortured the believers in Jesus for a long while

    al diazgerrero: that is why when he was killed he died as a roman citizen, decapitated

    DEXTER: and that was in the land of the jews

    al diazgerrero: not crucified like peter

    al diazgerrero: the romans crucified other nations but not there own people

    al diazgerrero: the cruciphiction was basically a roman torture

    al diazgerrero: but paul was a doctor in the law

    al diazgerrero: in the law i was telling you about

    DEXTER: my dear !! Paul was a Jewish ,, thats what he said !! do u disbelieve him ?

    al diazgerrero: they did not like jesus because

    al diazgerrero: people called him rabi

    al diazgerrero: and jesus was to young to be a rabi

    al diazgerrero: thast why they asked him

    al diazgerrero: with what authority was he doing what he did

    al diazgerrero: *that;s

    al diazgerrero: that's

    al diazgerrero: 1 min pls*

    DEXTER: yeah ,, and i ask u the same thing! in what authority he knocked down all what Jesus tried to keep and preach through whole his lifetime ! ?

    DEXTER: According to the Bible, Jesus spent his whole life in strict adherence to the commandments of the law of Moses . He departed leaving his followers with the following words:


    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    Matthew 5:17-19

    so in what authority does Paul come and break the commandments right and left ?

    al diazgerrero: as i said, he never knocked down anything,

    al diazgerrero: as i said

    al diazgerrero: the Law, are the ten commandments

    al diazgerrero: but when jesus was killed in the cross

    al diazgerrero: he concluded...

    al diazgerrero: or how can i say this

    DEXTER: me dear ! he ate pork , he did not practice what Jesus practiced !!

    DEXTER: He CONCLUDED ??? and not AUTHORIZED ?

    al diazgerrero: paul did not eat pork, but he said that god's kingdom was not of food or water but of spirit

    DEXTER: Only Jesus is authorized to break what he says

    al diazgerrero: he did not break

    DEXTER: no dear,, Paul said :“If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.”

    1 Corinthians 10:27


    al diazgerrero: jesus did not break, he obe

    al diazgerrero: *obeyed

    al diazgerrero: see the context

    al diazgerrero: he was explainning of

    al diazgerrero: all the produce that was selled in that time, some of the meat was dedicated to idols

    DEXTER: tell me my friend , is not not allowed in christianity to eat Pork ?

    DEXTER: is it allowed or noT?

    al diazgerrero: me myself i don't eat pork

    DEXTER: Christian churches order their followers to eat everything even Prok !! while Jesus Never did that !! but he was keeping the Law of moses in which not allowing to eat Pork

    al diazgerrero: yes, we as humans have sinned in many awful ways, that's precisely why Jesus came to earth in the first place

    DEXTER: so now as a conclusion , do we agree that Jesus did not say a word of most of the doctrines that Paul preached ?

    al diazgerrero: christ did not face the sittuations that paul did personaly

    DEXTER: what do u mean ?

    al diazgerrero: i beleive that paul obeyed christ as christ obeyed the father

    DEXTER: how do u say that when Paul attributed things that Jesus never said or did or preached ? how do u say that when Paul did things Jesus asked us to undo , and broke things Jesus always kept ?

    DEXTER: Paul asked for faith in Jesus Christ on the cross atoning for our sins, while Jesus never said that!! not even while he was on the Cross !!

    al diazgerrero: paul obeyed so much, that it is written that he went to the temple to purify himself...

    al diazgerrero: as the -law- said so

    DEXTER: my friend !! U said Paul obeyed Jesus , while Jesus said :. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..... and Paul never kept the commandment .
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  6. #6
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    al diazgerrero: paul basically, preached about the mercy of christ
    DEXTER: see what Jesus said !! TILL HEAVEN AND EARTHPASS !! and did they PASS yet ?
    al diazgerrero: till all be fulfilled.
    al diazgerrero: *till all be fulfilled.
    DEXTER: tell me .. did they pass yet? no! at least not over me
    al diazgerrero: christ fulfilled that part when he died in the cross
    al diazgerrero: you see
    DEXTER: my friend ,, the verse says: TILL HEAVEN AND EARTHPASS and they did not pass when Jesus died on the cross
    al diazgerrero: thats the error that our friends the catholics have
    al diazgerrero: they think they sacrifice jesuschrist everyday in mass
    al diazgerrero: when that is unnecesary
    DEXTER: and see what he says also :Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.. HE SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST ,, now tell me . did Paul preach the same as Jesus did ?
    al diazgerrero: because his sacifice whas perfect and definitive
    DEXTER: so either we preach as Jesus did , orelse we shall be called the LEAST in the Kingdom of God
    al diazgerrero: when you go inside jesus, you become an inheretor of the new pact
    DEXTER: and Jesus preache the Law of Moses .. while Paul destoryed the Law and considered it as a curse
    al diazgerrero: the pact of the blood of jesus christ
    DEXTER: my darling . where does Jesus say these things ?? !! I am wondering!
    al diazgerrero: in the last supper
    DEXTER: Where did he say that he shall atone for our sins ?
    al diazgerrero: this is my blood the blood of the new pact
    DEXTER: He never said that in the last supper .
    al diazgerrero: and in fact
    DEXTER: he never said that he shall atone us by his death
    al diazgerrero: in the old testament
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: it is written that if a man did not fulfill the law he would be cursed
    DEXTER: aha , and Jesus KEPT THE LAW OF MOSES !!
    al diazgerrero: what does "atone" mean
    DEXTER: atone mean that some pays the penelty for other's sins
    al diazgerrero: of course jesus is/was perfect
    al diazgerrero: isaih 53 speaks of this matter
    DEXTER: i agree that Jesus was sinless
    DEXTER: but , he did not say that he shall atone us . u know what I mean ?
    DEXTER: in what authority does Paul says that ?
    al diazgerrero: says what ?
    al diazgerrero: do you agree that when somebody makes a crime, it has to be payed for there is a punishment
    DEXTER: Paul contradicted Jesus' whole life and whole preaching and contradicted the whole Law of Moses .. because God said in the Old Testiment :
    DEXTER: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin”
    Deuteronomy 24:16.
    and “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son”
    Ezekiel 18:20
    al diazgerrero: well john 3:16 says
    al diazgerrero: that god loves us so, that he gave his son instead of us
    al diazgerrero: because like in a ball game, when a player makes a mistake the hole team loses, the same way when adam sinned the hole humanity fell
    DEXTER: what about the above verses ? was it a lie that we do not hold the penelty of other ppl's sin ?
    al diazgerrero: that means you are responsible of your own acts
    DEXTER: and who said that? it was Paul only !!! Jesus never did nor anyone in the whole old testiment
    al diazgerrero: did what ?
    DEXTER: did say that we are sinners and we inherit the original sin
    DEXTER: each one is responsible for his own sinns
    DEXTER: and that is the ultimate fair . and God is the Most Fair .
    DEXTER: and we have talked about that in our previous conversation
    al diazgerrero: he did not have to, because all of the sacrifices that were daily executed in the temple had exactly that intenttion to redem
    al diazgerrero: they were called sacrifices of peace, wich means, they mankind or at least that nation was not at peace with the Lord
    DEXTER: how do u say that ? HE DID NOT HAVE TO ??? how then can we know that !!?
    DEXTER: Jesus was very sure that he is understandable to his followers and was preaching in the Temple for that reason
    al diazgerrero: i think christ came to teach what we did not knew not what we already know
    DEXTER: he would not leave us like that without telling is the true meaning of his message
    al diazgerrero: his message is beleive in his salvation, because he came to rescue what was lost
    DEXTER: and what was his salvation ? He said :“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"
    al diazgerrero: yes, right, one of the purposses of that law was to save,
    DEXTER: he did not say that his salvation was to believe in his untimate sacrifice , while Paul said that ,, Not JESUS
    al diazgerrero: but it proved to fail
    al diazgerrero: becuase it was necesary a perfect sacrifice
    al diazgerrero: a definitev one
    DEXTER: who proved that ? PAUL ??? Did God give us misguiding LAWS ?? how can u say that !
    DEXTER: was God that Ignorant that He does not know what fits us and what does not 1 ?
    al diazgerrero: the law was that every house father had to bring to the temple a perfect male sheep, one year old
    al diazgerrero: and it also had to be the first born
    al diazgerrero: that innocent animal had to die, in order that the
    al diazgerrero: pay of sin was not executed
    al diazgerrero: because sin is washed away with blood
    DEXTER: yeah ,, I know about that law .. but u are saying that it was misleading , though it was from God .. and God is not {the author} of confusion
    al diazgerrero: only blood washes away sin
    al diazgerrero: it was not misleading, men are dileading
    al diazgerrero: disleading
    DEXTER: then it is not about the Law . but MEN ..
    al diazgerrero: there couldn't be a law with out men
    DEXTER: yeah ..but tell me .. was it because the Law was proven misleading, or becuase ppl are proven to be misleading ?
    al diazgerrero: ppl are sinners,
    DEXTER: yes we are all sinners.. i agree to that .. but are we all misleading?
    al diazgerrero: remember that this old ritual law was given to the ppl, right after they left egipt
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and before that, in egipt, god commanded to mark the houses with blood
    al diazgerrero: so the angel of death wouldn't touch the ppl
    DEXTER: so ?
    al diazgerrero: so?
    al diazgerrero: you know that
    al diazgerrero: for example
    al diazgerrero: let me say this ok
    al diazgerrero: you know little children, play with small figures of cars, animals, boats etc.
    DEXTER: do u think that such a crutial thing (atonement and salvation) is unnecessary to be clearly clarified by Jesus ? but to be left to us to conclude and break what Jesus Kept through all his lifetime ?
    al diazgerrero: as i said they are figures, they are not real
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: they are figures that represent
    al diazgerrero: the real thing
    al diazgerrero: yeah, well
    al diazgerrero: those first figures
    al diazgerrero: the blood
    al diazgerrero: the sheep
    al diazgerrero: the bread
    al diazgerrero: the flesh
    al diazgerrero: they were all figures that represented the real thing,
    al diazgerrero: that is jesuschrist
    al diazgerrero: that is why jesus fullfiled that law
    DEXTER: u mean that was all as a conclusion . and nothing is really clear or stated by Jesus ?
    al diazgerrero: jesus, stated
    DEXTER: what ?
    al diazgerrero: i am the truth
    al diazgerrero: i am life
    al diazgerrero: i am the way
    al diazgerrero: not that he was saying the truth, but that He is the truth
    DEXTER: I believe that he was the truth .. i agree ,,. and in that meaning , there is no need for another truth to be said after what he says ! that is a very important statement u have just made!!
    al diazgerrero: he is the real thing
    al diazgerrero: he is the fulfillness of everything that was written before or after
    DEXTER: he is the life , and he is the way .. that is right , what was he doing through 33 years of his life ? he was keeping the commandments to give us an example of that for us to follow
    al diazgerrero: yes, his purposse, the purposse of god was to become a man and demonstrate that it is possible to obey the perfect will of god, that is the ten commandments
    DEXTER: he is the life , meaning that he was living the perfect life , and if we wanna do that , we have to live the way he did by keeping the commandments.. and he is the way , meaning the way for salvation .. and what did he ask us to do ? to keep the commandments ,, and if we wanna get PERFECTION we only have to sell our belongings.. that is the meaning of the verse : I am the truth (no truth after me) and the way (the way I have lived and kept the commandment) and life ( the best life we can get was through keeping th ecommandment that Jesus Kept)
    al diazgerrero: i think those verses don;t need interpretation
    al diazgerrero: when he sais i am life
    al diazgerrero: it means exactly that
    al diazgerrero: he is life
    al diazgerrero: that is why of the resurrection
    al diazgerrero: it is impossible to kill life
    DEXTER: yeah ,, that is right . he is life .. and what is that supposed to mean ?
    al diazgerrero: that was the devils mistake,
    al diazgerrero: how can anybody kill life without dying also ?
    DEXTER: ?
    DEXTER: are u telling me that it was the devils mstake to kill Jesus ?
    al diazgerrero: if the devil knew he was precisely going to be defeated in the cross, he would of never cruciphied jesus
    DEXTER: so Jesus knew that He was going to die on the cross ?
    al diazgerrero: always since the begining of time
    al diazgerrero: that my friend is the perfect plan of a perfect god
    DEXTER: then tell me my friend ,
    DEXTER: why did Jesus pray in his last night , and why did he ask his followers to sel their belongings and buy swords ? and why all that fear and sadness if he knew that he was going to die and be resurructed again ? why did he pray to the Father to let this cup pass from him ?
    al diazgerrero: jesus never asked ppl to sell there belongings in order to buy swords
    DEXTER: and if that was the real plan , then the last attempt made to arrest him and crucify him was not the first one actually , but many attempts were made to arrest him and kill him .. and he always escaped .. why does he have to wait ?
    al diazgerrero: the fear and sadness is natural of a man who is aware that he is going to die
    DEXTER: yes he did my dear !! that was in LUKE . wanna read the whole verse ? i can get it for u
    al diazgerrero: because he planned his own death
    al diazgerrero: remember what was celebrated when he died , or was about to die ?
    DEXTER: ha ?
    al diazgerrero: the great jew celebration
    DEXTER: the feast ?
    al diazgerrero: in memory of there liberation from
    al diazgerrero: egipt
    DEXTER: u mean the feast ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: are u sure about that ?
    al diazgerrero: of course my frined
    DEXTER: this is a very important timing !! are u sure ?
    al diazgerrero: that is so wonderful
    al diazgerrero: that is why he rested on
    al diazgerrero: Saturday
    al diazgerrero: and the resurrection took place
    al diazgerrero: the next day
    DEXTER: yes so WONDERFUL!! thanks a lot my friend , ,that makes sense !! BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    DEXTER: did u know that the three Gospels MATHEW < MARK AND LUKE said that crucifiction was after the feast while John said that it was before ?????????? how can u explain that ?
    DEXTER: who is telling lies and who is telling the truth ? which is the true word of God ?
    DEXTER: John ? or the three other Gospels ?
    DEXTER: or u never knew that ! OMG do not tell me u never knew!
    DEXTER: u are supposed to be a christian !
    DEXTER: and crucificiton is the basic doctrine u adopted !
    DEXTER: according to Paul and not to Jesus Christ!!
    DEXTER: ha ? the word of God is contradictory now !!
    DEXTER: there is no explanation for that for Jesus was crucified just once!
    DEXTER: John says that it was before the feast and the three others said that it was after ,, both are considered to be authentic . but authentic by whom ? God ? NO !! the church .. !! the church that added the three witnesses in the Bible to Validate a doctrine that was never there !!
    DEXTER: u know what I mean now ? u know what I mean by saying we have to look for the truth?
    DEXTER: do u know what I mean that we have to know what Jesus really said ?
    DEXTER: I hope u understand me now
    DEXTER: there is some truth in the Bible . but it is not to be taken as it is .. contradicions of that kind is all over the Bible .. we have check to know what is real and what is false . and no one will do that for us .. we have to look ourselves . thats why i share with u this seeking of truth
    al diazgerrero has signed out. (18/08/142608:43م)


    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  7. #7
    الصورة الرمزية السيف البتار
    السيف البتار غير متواجد حالياً مدير المنتدى
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    11:22 PM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    جزاك الله خيراً أخي الفارقليط على هذا المجهودة وسعيك لهداية من ضل عن الصراط المستقيم
    إن كان سيدنا محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم ليس رسول الله لمدة 23 عاماً .. فلماذا لم يعاقبه معبود الكنيسة ؟
    .
    والنَّبيُّ (الكاذب) والكاهنُ وكُلُّ مَنْ يقولُ: هذا وَحيُ الرّبِّ، أُعاقِبُهُ هوَ وأهلُ بَيتِهِ *
    وأُلْحِقُ بِكُم عارًا أبديُا وخزْيًا دائِمًا لن يُنْسى
    (ارميا 23:-40-34)
    وأيُّ نبيٍّ تكلَّمَ باَسْمي كلامًا زائدًا لم آمُرْهُ بهِ، أو تكلَّمَ باَسْمِ آلهةٍ أُخرى، فجزاؤُهُ القَتْلُ(تث 18:20)
    .
    .
    الموسوعة المسيحية العربية *** من كتب هذه الأسفار *** موسوعة رد الشبهات ***

  8. #8
    الصورة الرمزية الشرقاوى
    الشرقاوى غير متواجد حالياً محاور
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    02:32 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

    أسجل مرورى وتحياتى وإعجابى لأخانا دكستر

    بارك الله فيك يا اخانا الكريم

  9. #9
    الصورة الرمزية نسيبة بنت كعب
    نسيبة بنت كعب غير متواجد حالياً عضو شرفي
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    11:58 PM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    السلام عليكم

    أحيرا .. الفارقليط يطلعنا على مباحثاته السرية من النصارى

    كنت اعلم انك تعلمت كثيرا من الكتب التى تقوم بترحمتها - فى الواقع ما فعلته كل خير عمل ليضعك على الطريق الصحيح لمحاورة النصارى

    اولا : تابعت حوراتك كلها بمتعه كبيرة

    وصعب على ّ اللادينى الغريب الفكر الذى يظن ان كل شىء مخلوق لوحده!! - ده تايه خالص .. ولكى تكمل معه يجب ان يكون لديكم ارضية مشتركه للنقاش - اصلا مفيش عنده اى حاجة - اى مخه بلاااااطه على راى اخى - انت وظيفتك فى هذه المرحله ان تجعله يثقف نفسه فى كيف بدأ الخلق - وبعدها تكمل - اى اعطيه روابط ليخلق فكرة او اطار يكون مدخلكم للنقاش

    اما النصرانى - فالحوار معه جيد ولو انه لا يعرف كثبرا عن انجيله مثلم انت
    اعجبتنى طريقتك و جذبه الى مسار الحوار الرئيسى كلما شط عن لب الوضوع - قدرتك على تتبع النقاط للنهاية وعدم السماح له بتشتيك ... ممتاز .. واهنئك

    استنفاذ كل النقاط - حتى لا يبقى حولها مجال للنقاش شىء رائع ويصل بك الى نتيجة .. ان شاء الله تثمر جهودك ويهدى الله بك

    استمر فى صقل قدرتك على ادارة الحوار وعدم السماح بالتشتت لانها مجدية

    واهنئك على صبرك وطريقتك المحترمة فى عدم التقليل من شأن الآخرين الجادين اثناء الحوار

    ارتقب نتيجة الحوار مع النصرانى وأدعو : - اللهم اجعل لأخى الفارقليط فتحا قريبا

    اخيرا ما رايك تنقلها على المنتدى الأنجليزى؟

    اجمل تحياتى وكل عام وانت والعائلة والفارقليط الجونيور بخير

    جزاك الله خيرا ونفع بك اخى الفارقليط السينيور
    التعديل الأخير تم بواسطة نسيبة بنت كعب ; 22-09-2005 الساعة 05:00 PM

  10. #10
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
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    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    أنقل لكم ما جرى من حوار مع النصراني السابق ، و أعترف أنه من أفضل المحاورين الذين لقيتهم في حياتي .. أسأل الله له الهداية قريباً ..اللهم استجب..آمين
    DEXTER:
    DEXTER: just wanna say hi and check on u I hope u are doing fine
    al diazgerrero: good morning, god bless you dexter
    DEXTER: Good morning to u my friend .. and May God Bless our effort to seek the truth and Guide us to nothing but the truth .. Amen
    al diazgerrero:
    al diazgerrero: i hope you have a nice day today
    DEXTER: u too . have a nice day today and ever after
    al diazgerrero: amen
    DEXTER: so tell me. have u thught of what we have said ?
    al diazgerrero: at the moment yes
    DEXTER: I am wondering if I am bothering u with this . i hope not
    DEXTER: but these are things can not be shared with every christian ,, only who know their christianity only
    al diazgerrero: no, you do not bother, i just wonder that if you have not realized yet, that when you find jesus, you have found the truth
    DEXTER: I am looking for him pure and he is , no masks .. just his true face
    DEXTER: thats what I am looking for
    DEXTER: While Pagans and others have tampered with Jesus face by putting mask over mask inorder to compromise their thoughts with the true message of Jesus and vise versa, till it was hard to know what Jesus really said and what really he is .. and stuff like that
    DEXTER: we have seen how three gospels have contradicted the fourth (John) in the timing of Crusiciftion .
    al diazgerrero: in some way you are right
    DEXTER: while all modern christianity was based upon the crucifiction , we see that they did not really know the timing of it .
    DEXTER: was it before the feast or after ? who told a lie and who told the truth ? Is there another truth that was not in the Bible ? and stuff like that
    al diazgerrero: one cannot research the bible the way we do with any other topic
    DEXTER: am not getting the point
    DEXTER: are u saying that we are doing just great , or we are mistaken with this research ?
    al diazgerrero: well, you know that one basic rule to understand the bible, is first of all to ask the Holy Spirit to unveal the word
    al diazgerrero: the second and also very important is to read every passage along with the context
    DEXTER: my darling , we have not yet seen who the true God is , for Trinity is not in the Bible as we have seen ..
    DEXTER: exactly .. within the context
    DEXTER: and I have two topics now .
    al diazgerrero: well, according to the teachings of jesus, he specificly said he would send the spirit of truth, that would let us understand everything
    DEXTER: and they are included in the statement: within the context
    DEXTER: I would ask no one but God - whoever God is - to guide us to His truth ..
    DEXTER: so tell me . are u ready today ?
    al diazgerrero: i am, but lets take it easy ok, i am in my job, and i have things to attend, and as i will be attending you i also have to attend my job, if that is ok with you, we can start
    DEXTER: SURE . do not forget that I am attending work as well .. so we shall take it easy ,, just as u said .
    DEXTER: I have two topics , each one is more important than the other .
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: the first one is : Devinity of Jesus .. or : Is Jesus God ? that is the first one .
    DEXTER: and another topic:
    DEXTER: studying the quoting of Mathew from the old Testiment
    DEXTER: or we may start studying the four gospels as well in a comparison attitude
    DEXTER: what do u say ?
    al diazgerrero: i think, that each of the gospel authors, wrote them according to their personal sittuation
    DEXTER: but aren't they God's word as christians claim ?
    al diazgerrero: like for example john, he wrote more interesting details of jesus than the others because he became an eye witness during the last hours of jesus
    DEXTER: and remember when we stated before that God's word does not have contradicitons ..
    al diazgerrero: to me they do not contradict, but enrich each others writings
    DEXTER: we shall ckeck on this statement . especially when they go each one in a different way that there would be no way to say such a statement : enrich each other .
    DEXTER: but rather the Mathew and Luke stole from Marks .. and thats what we shall see learly .
    DEXTER: clearly**
    al diazgerrero: i think that you and me can discuss this without interfering in what each other beleives in
    DEXTER: yeah . when someone wanna seek the truth , then he should not take previously established believes as for granted but rather seek it with clear heart and mind.
    DEXTER: u know what I mean .
    al diazgerrero: for how long have you been studying the scriptures ?
    DEXTER: not a short time .
    DEXTER: as for the Bible , only about two years ..
    DEXTER: but yet things are still hidden to me and sometimes I need some help on specific topics
    al diazgerrero: well i have studied the bible since 2000
    DEXTER: I would not say that I am perfect in the Bible . but I know things that most christians are ignorant of now adays
    al diazgerrero: and you can trust me, and will receive instructions and valuable news for you, if you just open your mind a little more
    DEXTER: lol.. my mind is fully-opened my friend. and thats why I analyse and study .. I do not let previously established beleivs control my attitude of thinking . but rather I study it and analyse it to compare it to other things from the scriptures too .
    DEXTER: you know what I mean? I love my Lord with all my mind
    DEXTER: that is the first commandment
    al diazgerrero: i think that what you are saying is difficult to accomplish beacuase all mankind is very, influenceable, and we do not ever start anything with a blank mind, we start changing the way we think in a very slow procccess
    DEXTER: we can try our best .. we are still humans and we are notperfect
    DEXTER: but we can be close to perfection
    DEXTER: that is what Jesus said: Sell ur belongings and u will be perfect ..
    al diazgerrero: yeah
    DEXTER: but I would not asume that . but rather we can be clsoe to perfection in this matter , as much as humanly possible
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

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