حواري مع نصراني

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حواري مع نصراني

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  1. #11
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    DEXTER: so lets start .. which topic wanna start ?
    DEXTER: I would rather stick to one topic all day , and maybe in the nest couple of talks too
    al diazgerrero: we already startde
    al diazgerrero: *sarted
    al diazgerrero: started*
    DEXTER: well .. how about we talk about the devinity of Jesus ?
    al diazgerrero: i am going to tell you something that you need to notice and check in the bible
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: everytime in the hole bible, God never ever loses he is perfectly wise and perfectly everything, the mistakes are all from men
    DEXTER: I know that this topic is almost prohibited to discuss for most of the christians.. but we said we wanna be close to perfection. ok ?
    al diazgerrero: if you read carefuly
    al diazgerrero: you will find that the human being lies
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: for example
    al diazgerrero: when the rich youngman, askes jesus, what does he need to do in order to earn the eternal life
    al diazgerrero: this passage is right after the one where jesus blesses the children
    al diazgerrero: remember?
    DEXTER: AHA
    al diazgerrero: well, jesus told him that it was necessary to follow the commandments
    DEXTER: AHA
    al diazgerrero: the young man, asked wich commandments,jesus answered: the commandments, the ones that are in the book of exodus chapter 20
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: he did not speak like thi ok, these are my own words
    al diazgerrero: and then the young man
    DEXTER: yeah .. i remember
    al diazgerrero: answered, i follow all of them since i was a boy
    al diazgerrero: one of the commandments clearly states that we must love our neighbors
    DEXTER: AHA
    al diazgerrero: and the youngman said that he foolowed those commandments
    al diazgerrero: but
    al diazgerrero: when jesus told him to sell everything and give it to the poor
    al diazgerrero: he became sad
    al diazgerrero: why
    al diazgerrero: because
    al diazgerrero: we
    al diazgerrero: the human beings
    al diazgerrero: LIE
    DEXTER:
    al diazgerrero: we say we do something according to our opinion, but when jesus tests us we prove we are not being honest with ourselves
    DEXTER: am not really sure about this statement u have made..
    DEXTER: but lets take it as it is .
    al diazgerrero: then how do you explain that the young man is saying that he follows the commanment, and when he is asked to exactly do so, to give to the poor he does not do it but instead he goes away
    DEXTER: and according to that , when ppl lie and they are not honest with themselves and us , isn't that a good reason to check every single word they say ?
    al diazgerrero: is that a contradiction of tthe word of God
    al diazgerrero: or of the word of men ?
    DEXTER: am still not getting ur point where is the contradiction here ?
    al diazgerrero: that he first claims that he follows the commandment
    DEXTER: this is not the contradiction am talking about
    al diazgerrero: and when the author of this commandment askes him to fulfill it he does not
    DEXTER: I was talking about contradictions that can never be both correct .. for example the contradiction of the timing of the crucifiction ..
    DEXTER: this is what I am talking about .
    al diazgerrero: i know you are not refering to this contradiction, but it is an example,of how to hanlde what we apparently seee as contradictions in th ebible
    DEXTER: one said something , while another said something different . and there is no way to compromise them both together . this is what I mean by contradiction
    al diazgerrero: but jesus was evidently cruciphied, yes?
    DEXTER: we shall check on it ,, this is not our topic .. i would rather not comment
    al diazgerrero: may i ask you something
    DEXTER: go ahead ..
    al diazgerrero: what do you beleive in ?
    DEXTER: I did not say yes or no . i am still seeking with u ,,
    DEXTER: if we found out that JEsus was really crucified , then fine , we shall take it
    DEXTER: u know what I mean? i do not let pre-establilshed believes to control my reseach ,,
    DEXTER: thats all .. and I do not want to declare pre-statements unless we search for it
    al diazgerrero: ok, but you have not ansewered my question
    DEXTER: 1 min
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: my friend . if I told u from the beginning that Trinity is a false doctrine and it was added to the Bible later, you would not listen to me all this time . so thats why I would not prefer to declare anything without any search ..
    DEXTER: we search and then we declare . u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: don't be afraid of being honest with me, i will not reject you
    DEXTER: that is the step-by-step research we wanna go through
    DEXTER: I do not wanna tell u what I wanna go to , so that u have pre-understanding that whatever I say is not true .
    DEXTER: u know what I mean ? at the end . either u take it , or u just refuse it from the beginning
    al diazgerrero: what you are doing is sincere, you must know we don't find God, God finds us. and if you have this interest is because God himself put this in your heart
    DEXTER: and at the end , it is just a talk .. maybe would have some effects and maybe not
    al diazgerrero: don't worry, trust me, my faith does not depend on you, you have the right to beleive what you prefer
    DEXTER: yeah thats right .
    DEXTER: 1 min
    al diazgerrero: yeah, trust me, you will never offend me
    DEXTER: back .
    DEXTER: well my friend . u asked for honesty and u will have it ..
    al diazgerrero: i was just trying to help you, thats why i was asking you, what do you beleive un, so that way we can start from your own point of view
    DEXTER: I am a Muslim .. and I am interested in religion study and comparision .. I talk to ppl and check with them and share with them what I have . so either They take or they refuse it .. do not pre-judge me nor Islam .. we are talking about Jesus that we both share in our belief
    al diazgerrero: but if you are muslim, you dont beleive in jesus as god
    al diazgerrero: because the koran is very specific about that
    DEXTER: see !! thats what I do not wanna be . we are pre-judging and declaring without any study ,, u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: yes, but i accept you
    DEXTER: we wanna check everything step by step ..
    al diazgerrero: i will tell you a secret
    DEXTER: and if u are interested also , we can arrange some talks about Islam too
    DEXTER: go ahead
    al diazgerrero: a special secret
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: ?
    al diazgerrero: some years ago about ten or more, i dont remember exactly... i used to drink and use drugs, and i quit his 6 years ago, i used to smoke crack and get very very drunk
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and God, rescued me from this, and one of the main ways he used was teaching me tolerance and love to the people
    al diazgerrero: i would never reject you, for your religion or for anything else
    DEXTER: thanks
    al diazgerrero: because if God did not reject me i do not have the right to reject anybody
    al diazgerrero: i did not learn this in christianity
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: i learned this with a special place group of people
    al diazgerrero: that donot care who you are, where you come from, or what you beleive in
    al diazgerrero: they are only interested in helping
    DEXTER: yeah ..
    al diazgerrero: and even though they all belong to different cultures and religions they work together, in this task of helping people like me,
    DEXTER: i see that is rare to find among christians
    al diazgerrero: and they toght me this very very important matter, to accept everyone just as thay are
    DEXTER: do u have a computer at home ?
    al diazgerrero: when they work togheteher they don;t work as christians or muslims or anything, they work as alcoholics anonymous
    al diazgerrero: yes i have a pc at home
    DEXTER: actually i wanna send u something by mail..
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: one of the books which are interesting ..
    al diazgerrero: i love reading
    DEXTER: it is titled: What did Jesus really say ? ..
    DEXTER: it is an islamic book of course ..
    DEXTER: and it answers back almost everything
    al diazgerrero: ok
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: It does a better job than our talks in here .
    DEXTER: but we can still discuss things here also
    al diazgerrero: i think that our job is fine
    al diazgerrero: because we are talking of the most important matter of all
    al diazgerrero: God
    DEXTER: yeah . that is right ..
    DEXTER: what is your email address
    DEXTER: ?
    al diazgerrero: you know why mankind can never absolutely agree in everything?
    DEXTER: aha ?
    al diazgerrero: biblicly because
    al diazgerrero: God himself, when mankind tryed to reach heaven by there own means through the babel tower, He sent a spirit of confussion
    al diazgerrero: this confussion works exactly the way we are witnessing now a days
    DEXTER:
    DEXTER: well . disagreeing with u does not change anything , whatever .
    al diazgerrero: i did not understand
    al diazgerrero: hehe
    DEXTER: I mean , I disagree to this statement , but that does not change anything .
    DEXTER: so lets go back to where we are .. shall we ?
    al diazgerrero: it's ok with me
    DEXTER: ok great
    DEXTER: in our research of knowing God , we found out that Trinity is not geniunly from the Bible..
    al diazgerrero: aha
    DEXTER: now before discussing the Devinity of Jesus , we wanna check something by our minds
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: what does the word " Son of God" mean ? i mean .. does it mean that Jesus is God ?
    DEXTER: like for example , in order to know what the word "Son" mean , we have to check the meaning of it
    al diazgerrero: go on
    DEXTER: Son is a word that means another entity from the father that share the basic nature of the source (father) and has the same properties that define the father , and also is from the same substance too ..
    DEXTER: do we agree ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: and when we say : son of cow , that means definitely a cow ..
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: and son of camel , that means definetly a camel
    DEXTER: and there is no way to say that a camel gave birth to a cow or vise versa
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: therefore , Son of God , should mean definitely God like his father
    DEXTER: u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: something esle we wanna see ..
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: having a son means that father (source) have given birth to the son.. in one way or another ..
    DEXTER: we shall not discuss the way how father gave birth to son ,. but we shall take it as it is
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: now beget is an action verb ..
    DEXTER: and that means : it separates the time to three main parts..
    DEXTER: before the act , during the act , and after the act
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: and there is no way to combine these times and mix them since the act separates them ..
    DEXTER: now the Bible states that God has no beginning , nor an end .. and that one of the things that define od from other things ..
    DEXTER: only God has no beginning nor an end .. this is one of the properties that define God ..
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: and if we took for granted that God begot a son .. then this son as we have seen must share the basic properties that define the father ..
    al diazgerrero: and?
    DEXTER: because son means the same as father .. basically .
    DEXTER: but the verb beget separated time and however we tried to go back in eternity , there will be time before the act ..
    DEXTER: and in that way , there would be no way for the son to share the basic definitions from the father .. because son must have a beginning..
    DEXTER: and in that manner , son loses one of the definitions to be God . u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: therefore , Muslims say that God is one and has no Son ..
    DEXTER: and it is logically acceptable .
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: now .. after this logic check we can ask a very important Q .
    DEXTER: while we can see God decalring many times that He is God (in the Bible)
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: and while we can see God asking us in the Bible to worship Him,
    DEXTER: can we see Jesus decalring that He is God , or asking ppl to worship him ?
    DEXTER: and that is a very important Q ..
    DEXTER: can we?
    al diazgerrero: no
    al diazgerrero: except in the book of revelations
    DEXTER: then.. what makes Jesus to be God ? there must be some declaration for that belief to be adopted . and Revalation is a dream . and not a declaration by Jesus . u know what I mean
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: now lets check the things that made Jesus God .. one by one and discuss it together ,
    al diazgerrero: ok

    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  2. #12
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    DEXTER: and see if this thing - that qualified Jesus to be God - is so special about Jesus and no one really shares it with him
    al diazgerrero: go on
    DEXTER: and see also what things that do not Qualify him to be God and states clearly that Jesus is only a Human being .
    DEXTER: we agree together that we both believe in Jesus , and we both love him . and we both glorify him . maybe in different manners , but we still glorify him in some way
    al diazgerrero: continue
    DEXTER: and since Jesus never said that he is God , or asked ppl to worship him , then we must check this doctrine too , the doctrine that says : Jesus is God , Son of God (in the full meaning of the word)
    DEXTER: if Jesus said that clearly , then this conversation is over .. because JEsus did that .. but since he never said it , and it was another conclusion of christian wolrd - just like Trinity - then we have to go and then the validity of it
    DEXTER: check the validity of it**
    DEXTER: do we agree ?
    al diazgerrero: yes, i see what you mean
    al diazgerrero: and i supposse you are absolutely sure of what your saying
    DEXTER: yeah . hopefully .
    DEXTER: now .. first of all . from now on , I would love to show u the Islamic view regarding such matters . and I would love to share with you what God revealed in the Quran whenever I find it necessary .. ok?
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: good . lets start with what the Quran says about Son of God . ..
    DEXTER: we shall share some verse 21:19-29
    al diazgerrero: go ahead
    DEXTER: "And unto Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and the earth and those who dwell in His presence do not scorn to worship Him nor do they weary. They glorify Him night and day; They flag not. Or have they chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead If there were therein gods besides Allah then verily both (the heavens and the earth) would have gone to ruin. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne from all they ascribe (unto Him). He is not questioned as to that which He does, but they will be questioned. Or have they chosen other gods besides Him, say: Bring your proof (of their godhead), this is the reminder of those with me and those before me, but most of them know not the truth so they are averse (to it). -
    DEXTER: And we sent no messenger before you but we inspired him (saying): There is no god save Me (Allah) so worship Me. And they say: The Compassionate has taken unto himself a son. Nay! but (they) are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken and they obey His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they cannot intercede except for those whom He accepts and they quake for awe of Him. And whosoever among them says: I am a god other than Allah, the same shall We reward with Hell. Thus do We reward the wrong doers.”
    DEXTER: and there are many verses also talking about Jesus , we can share it later if u are interested
    al diazgerrero: yes, i know the basic teachings of the koran
    al diazgerrero: i have a koran
    DEXTER: now .. lets check the claim that Jesus is God from the Bible itself . and lets see wether the Quran was telling a lie or the truth..
    DEXTER: of course , it is not me who Judges the words of Quran , nor u tell me .. but rather this is between u and urself.. I am not waiting for confirmation of this ,
    DEXTER: but it is a check we make . and we keep the result for ourselves
    DEXTER: do we agree ?
    al diazgerrero: i dont agree in somethings but, go ahead
    DEXTER: ok .. thats fine for now
    DEXTER: now tell me .. what Qualifies Jesus to be God? gimme one by one .. so we can check it together
    DEXTER: one reason now .
    DEXTER: one thing only now that qualifies Jesus to be God
    al diazgerrero: ok, are you ready
    al diazgerrero: a few nentences behind
    al diazgerrero: sentenses
    al diazgerrero: *sentences
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: behind
    al diazgerrero: you were explainig very well about verb timing
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and you said that it was not possible...
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and there is no way to combine these times and mix them since the act separates them ..
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: these were your words
    al diazgerrero: but you know
    al diazgerrero: that one of Gods features is that he is omnipresent
    al diazgerrero: yes ?
    al diazgerrero: do you agree with me that God is omnipresent
    DEXTER: do u want a yes or no answer accroding to Islam belief ?
    al diazgerrero: just answer, did you know that God is everywhere
    al diazgerrero: ??
    DEXTER: according to the islamic belief , God is beyond the Universe and He is with us with His knowledge .. but not physically .. because God is infinite and Universe can not hold Him . He Hears our prayers and He watches upon us .. that is basically the Islamic belief
    DEXTER: but go ahead ..go on .
    al diazgerrero: ok, so that means he is everywhere in other words, yes ?
    DEXTER: in His knowledge .. but not physically
    al diazgerrero: of course not phisically, but He is everywhere right, absolutely everywhere
    al diazgerrero: do you agree /
    DEXTER: yes ,, in the meaning that He knows everything and Witnesse Everything .
    al diazgerrero: but you dont beleive that his presence is also everywhere
    al diazgerrero: not his phissical presence
    al diazgerrero: but his presence
    DEXTER: of course, in that meaning I agree,.
    al diazgerrero: well if God is absolutely present everywhere
    al diazgerrero: this means in all places
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: go on
    al diazgerrero: then he is also present in all times
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: so thats why you are wrong when you say that the act separates them
    DEXTER: ? am not getting the point
    al diazgerrero: because even though jesus is the son
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: he existedsince ever along with the father
    DEXTER: this is the unlogic thing about this doctrine , since he is not the fathe, that means he was begotten from the father and there was a time when we was not there ! u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: he existed since ever, along with the father
    DEXTER: this way of thinking draws us to saying that we have 2 different Gods..
    DEXTER: and that is not True from the Bible itself ..
    al diazgerrero: ok,i know how you feel
    al diazgerrero: and it is intersting because your questions are very well formulated
    DEXTER: no matter how we tried to explain how the son was begotten , it draws our logic to a previous time , when son was not there
    DEXTER: unless there were separated from eternity and that make Jeuss another God beside the Father .
    al diazgerrero: i think that when God said let's create man, according to our image
    al diazgerrero: explains me that we can explains me things that i do not understand with things i do understand
    DEXTER: I think I have answered that back my friend ,,it is a way of respect .. this is true regarding both Herbow and Arabic
    al diazgerrero: yes, but i mean of the fact that we were created according to his image
    al diazgerrero: and there is something else i want to tell you
    al diazgerrero: in very old bible versions
    DEXTER: now tell me . do we know Herbow better than the Jewish ? no! and the jews never claimed that God is more than one person becuase of this declaration..
    al diazgerrero: in the book of genesis
    al diazgerrero: it does not say God
    al diazgerrero: "God said"
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: it says :"the elohims said"
    al diazgerrero: Elohims
    DEXTER: let me correct u .
    al diazgerrero: did you know that
    DEXTER: it said : Elohym .. and not Elohym ,. and this "ym" is the plural in herbow and that shows respect ..
    DEXTER: and not Elihyms**
    DEXTER: Elohyms**
    DEXTER: and the exact translation for this : God Almighty
    al diazgerrero: yes, i see you knew that, and do you know what this means
    al diazgerrero: it clearly says the word in plural
    al diazgerrero: yes ?
    DEXTER: also , if u read the Quran , u can find that the englsih translation shows that God talks in plural .. and yet Arabs never claimed that God is plural or more than one or has many personalities for this Plural .
    al diazgerrero: have you read carefully, it is written in plural, and it means the lords
    al diazgerrero: have you ever read what king david wrote
    DEXTER: this is happened because the Herbow has different properties from other languages .
    al diazgerrero: the lord said tomy lord
    DEXTER: and when translating it , u have to know the properties of Herbow , because literal translation will be misleading
    al diazgerrero: "the Lord said to my Lord"
    DEXTER: we shall talk about this prophecy too and check on it later .
    al diazgerrero: "sit in my right
    al diazgerrero: "
    DEXTER: but lets keep up the same subject
    DEXTER: u said that Plural form means : many personalities ..
    al diazgerrero: it is the same subject, i am saying that God's ppl were aware of this matter
    DEXTER: and I told u that Arabic and Herbow share the same properties in that ..
    DEXTER: Arabs or Jews never claimed that God has many personalities .. because they are aware of the language more than others,,
    DEXTER: this "S" is a respect from .. and when I write to my boss i say :
    DEXTER: Dear Sirs , I would like from you (plural in arabic - since English does not distinguish it from singular) to Jion me (in singular because I am trying to show respect) so and so ..
    al diazgerrero: but they did not explain it very thoroughly, one because it is very difficult to understand and second becuase in salvation means, or in order to be saved, or in the interest of pleasing God, this issue is not important, the important thing, through witch we shall be saved is one, beleiving, this is faith, and second, obeying the commandments
    DEXTER: aha.. believing is the first step. and that is correct .. once we have believing , we have the second step .. and this beleieving is what we are looking for .. a pure one
    al diazgerrero: beleiving that jesus is my personal savior, and following the 10 commandments
    al diazgerrero: that simple, that is basically the christian dochtrine
    DEXTER: yeah,,
    DEXTER: but tell me first . have I explained enough to u regarding plural form ?
    al diazgerrero: God or christian dochtrine, does not demmand that we must beleive in what we do not understand, but it does demand obedience, and also to beleive that jesus saves me
    DEXTER: ask the jews , what is this YM . and they will tell u
    al diazgerrero: YM?
    DEXTER: ask the arabs .. what is this "S" and they will tell u ,.
    DEXTER: Elohym . - or Elohim whatever it is in English
    DEXTER: the word is Eloh + plural form ..
    DEXTER: and we as arabs share the word with them : Eloh as Elah ...
    DEXTER: and Elah means: god ..and Allah means God Almighty
    al diazgerrero: ok, the same nature of the word is plural
    al diazgerrero: and do you know why you share some of these important words?
    al diazgerrero: are you arab /
    al diazgerrero: ??
    DEXTER: so this plural from does not say that God is more than One but rather glorifies God in Herbow and Arabic
    DEXTER: yeah I am arab
    al diazgerrero: do you know your origin
    DEXTER: what do u mean ?
    al diazgerrero: in the beginning jews and what later became the arabic shared the same God
    al diazgerrero: in fact, you are a great nation
    al diazgerrero: according to the prophecy
    DEXTER: thanks .. we shall see that prophecy tooo.. it is a great one
    DEXTER: may I correct you for something?
    al diazgerrero: i have to do somthing, excuse me a minute, i'll be back
    DEXTER: ok take ur time
    al diazgerrero: ok,im back
    DEXTER: w/b
    al diazgerrero: thanks
    al diazgerrero: ok, so where were we
    DEXTER: we were I was correcting u
    DEXTER: I understood from ur talk that Jews are the origin nation of the arabs, did u mean that ?
    al diazgerrero: not the jews, but abraham
    DEXTER: exactly . Abraham is the father of Isac , father of the Jews,
    al diazgerrero: and father of Ismael
    DEXTER: and also Father of Ismael , but Ismael is not the father of Arabs ..
    DEXTER: Ismael lived with the Arabs
    DEXTER: Arabs where there before the time of Abraham too
    DEXTER: Scholars say that Arabs are origiannly from Yaman ,, south west if the Arabian Gulf
    DEXTER: of*
    al diazgerrero: when Abraham, prayed to the lord for his first son that was ismael, God promised that he would make out of ismael a very big and prosperous nation
    DEXTER: yeah . correct .. and that is one of the most important prophecies we shall discuss later
    DEXTER: lets go back .
    al diazgerrero: that prophecy has been fulfilled
    al diazgerrero: yeah if you like let's go back
    DEXTER: 1 min
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: now we have seen that this "S" is not a clue for multiple-personaliy God . as I have already explained to u ..
    DEXTER: but rather a form of respect .. we use it in our daily life till today
    DEXTER: and jews are still using it till today
    al diazgerrero: yes, i think that is clear and i understand
    DEXTER: good
    DEXTER: now .. i asked one of the statements that Qualifies Jesus to be God ..
    DEXTER: as we said , we shall talk in all .but I would take them one by one
    DEXTER: how about checking the title: Son of God ?
    DEXTER: as a first step toward the devinity of Jesus
    al diazgerrero: it is not easy for me because you don't beleive in the revelations in the bible, where it clearly specifies that jesuschrist is the lord
    DEXTER: good . that is another clue for u that Jesus is God , because he was called Lord,. right ?
    DEXTER: now we have two things : Son of God , and Lord ..
    DEXTER: right ?
    al diazgerrero: yes, basically yes
    DEXTER: lets take the first one . - as I said - I shall go through whatever u give me that indicates that Jesus is God .. and If some of the statements u forgot , I will discuss it with u and remind u with them ..
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: so we shall help each other in this
    DEXTER: Son of God . this is the topic ..
    DEXTER: if you execuse me , i wanna get the bible ready for we have a lot of quotes now
    DEXTER: so gimme a min. and brb soon
    al diazgerrero: k
    DEXTER: am back .. sorry for being late
    al diazgerrero: no problem
    DEXTER: christians usually tell us that Bible states in BOLD that Jesus is the only son of God, then how do muslims say that God has no children ?
    al diazgerrero: i ignore the muslim creed
    al diazgerrero: in many ways
    al diazgerrero: i only know that mahoma is your only prophet, and alah your only god
    DEXTER: we have seen previously that in order to understand what Jesus said , we have to understand that in the language of the ppl he talked to - the jews and Herbow language ,,
    DEXTER: because If i told u an exact translation for one sentence in Arabic , then u would certainly misunderstand it . for example:
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: in arabic we say : what is your color?
    al diazgerrero: aha
    DEXTER: ur answer would be definitely not the way it was intended to be ,.,.
    DEXTER: u will answer like: white or balck or whatever.
    DEXTER: while this Q was intended to mean : how are u ?
    al diazgerrero: interesting
    DEXTER: and the same thing goes for english translation to Arabic ,, if u translating the word: look up - into Arabic literally , it will never mean the way it was intended to be as : Search ..
    DEXTER: this is a rule for translation in all languages
    DEXTER: that in order to understand the meaning of the word , we have to know its meaning in the original language and how speakers of that language understood the word ..
    al diazgerrero: ok, i got that
    DEXTER: i think that everyone agrees to this .
    DEXTER: now .. let us ask ourselves a Q ..
    DEXTER: How many sons does God have ?
    al diazgerrero: one single son
    DEXTER: I want u to help me in answering this .. How many sons does God have
    DEXTER: ?
    DEXTER: ok .. lets see what the Bibles says :
    DEXTER: 1.Jacob is God's son and firstborn: “Israel is my son, even my firstborn” Exodus 4:22.
    DEXTER: 2.Solomon is God's son “He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son”: 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
    DEXTER: 3.Ephraim is God's firstborn: “for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
    DEXTER: 4.Adam is the son of God “Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:38.
    al diazgerrero: ephraim is the first son of israel
    al diazgerrero: all the first born are his sons
    al diazgerrero: in his law
    al diazgerrero: all firts born belong to god
    DEXTER: 5.Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: “Ye are the children of the LORD your God” Deuteronomy 14:1. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12. “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” Philippians 2:15. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God” 1 John 3:1-2. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Job 38:7.
    al diazgerrero: jacob stole from esau the stauts of first son
    DEXTER: “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 1:6. “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,” Genesis 6:4. “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” Genesis 6:2
    DEXTER: as we can see , the term son of God was commonly used in the Bible before and after Jesus , to describe common ppl ..
    al diazgerrero: not common ppl
    al diazgerrero: as a explained
    al diazgerrero: did not you see
    al diazgerrero: what i said above
    al diazgerrero: but i do see your point
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: we are all sons of god once we accept him, and fulfill his will
    DEXTER: so the term son of God is not a unique term for Jesus , while we all are sons of God ..
    al diazgerrero: go on...
    DEXTER: something I would like to share with u
    DEXTER: in Latin languages , English , French and Spanish , so forth ..
    DEXTER: these Languages have capital letters and small letters
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: and they use it like God and god - Son and son ..
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: but knowing that Herbow and Arabic are not the same .. the letter has one form .. there is no difference in writing in Arabic and Hernow between Son and son.. u know what I mean ?
    al diazgerrero: of course
    DEXTER: As we can see, the use of the term “son of God“ when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus’ people
    DEXTER: it was used before and after to describe someone who applies God's will on earth, who is close to God , Prophets , and good ppl
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: now lets check something else :
    DEXTER: was Jesus the only Begotten Son of God?
    DEXTER: lets see what the Bible states:
    al diazgerrero: i am here go on
    DEXTER: Read Psalms 2:7 - “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”.

    DEXTER: Such terminology can be found quite extensively throughout the Bible. For example:
    “My mother and my brothers are these which hear the word of God, and do it.”
    Luke 8:21
    “For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”
    Mark 3:35

    al diazgerrero: exactly
    DEXTER: Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus he defended himself with the following words :
    DEXTER: “The Jews answered him (Jesus), saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, Ye are gods?’ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken...”
    John 10:33-34
    al diazgerrero: yes
    DEXTER: (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..”)

    al diazgerrero: so true
    DEXTER: Many members of the Church point to John 10:33 to try and prove that Jesus claimed that he was the “son of God,” however, they stop here and to not bother to read Jesus’ answer in the next verse. In this case we must ask those who say that Jesus claimed to “literally” or “physically” be the “son of God” to apply their same standard to the rest of the passage and also claim that the Jews too are “literally” and “physically” “gods.” The only way to claim that Jesus was “literally” the son of God while the Jews were not “literally” gods is to claim that Jesus took Psalms 82:6 out of context. Something he would never do.
    DEXTER: u know what I mean?
    al diazgerrero: we both know, men canot be gods
    DEXTER: As we can see from these and many other verses like them, “son of God” in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as “Son of God” (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and “son of God” (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same.
    DEXTER: now lets see what the Grolier’s encyclopedia says under the heading Jesus Christ:
    DEXTER: it says :
    DEXTER: “During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be “my Lord.” Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as “my Lord.”.... it is unlikely that the title “Son of David” was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. “Son of God,” in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par -
    DEXTER: .; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself” .
    DEXTER: There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus refers to himself as “son of God.” They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in “The dictionary of the Bible” says: “Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.”
    al diazgerrero: “Son of God,” equivalent of Messiah...
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: what are u trying to say ,, explain to me
    al diazgerrero: no, i am not trying to explain, you are explaining and i like your research
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the “son of Man“ (literally: “Human being”) 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people. - though the church disregarded the Gospel of Barnaba , but it is still a reference in our search ..
    DEXTER: Jesus was not the son of a human man - human father - (according to both the Bible and the Qur’an). However, we find him constantly saying “I am the son of man” (eg. Matt. 17:12,Mark 8:38, Luke 9:56). Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say “I am a human being.”
    al diazgerrero: listen friend, i have to go now, i will sign other from another location in about 30 min, pls standby
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: look
    DEXTER: i have to go too
    DEXTER: we shall talk later ,
    al diazgerrero has signed out. (23/08/1426 08:33 م)

    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  3. #13
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    الكثير من النصارى يرفضون الحوار في النقاط التي تكلمت فيها مع هذا الشخص في حواري التالي .. لقد تطرقنا الى مواضيع في غاية الأهمية و نرى في حواره كيف انه بدأ يقدم التنازلات واحداً تلو الآخر .. و ليس عندي إلا أن أدعو له بالهداية .. لا تنسوه من هذا الدعاء بالغيب ..


    DEXTER: wow . one friend goes , another comes and life still goes on and on
    al diazgerrero: he
    DEXTER: how are u my friend ?
    al diazgerrero: goodmorning
    al diazgerrero: fine, and you?
    DEXTER: good morning to and good afternoon to me
    DEXTER: am fine..
    al diazgerrero: thank god
    DEXTER: I wanna say am sorry for our last chat for being a lil bit tough and rude maybe,, i could feel ur patience with me is not the same as before .. so am sorry again.. i never meant u to get sad or mad at all
    al diazgerrero: dont worry, everything is ok, this is normal in us humans, we need to accept our failures and forgive our failiures, and continue with our frriendship
    DEXTER: i wanna share with u something happened to me today
    DEXTER: i was in chatrooms looking for someone to talk to ..
    DEXTER: and then someone came to me and he was 19 years old .
    DEXTER: so we started talking about God and other stuff .
    DEXTER: he was a christian. not that well-educated as u are , but a normal one who reads the Bible
    DEXTER: and after a while I could see the clear misconceptions Bible has created in his mind regarding God .. and this thing is very normal and I will tell u what he said :
    DEXTER: he said that the Bible states that there is one God in the OT ..
    al diazgerrero: i am reading go on
    DEXTER: and then suddenly , God decided to reveal another God - who is Jesus Christ- and that God changed his mind. I am pretty sure that he was not a crazy man since he found no verse in the Bible to tell him that the three are one . u know what I mean ..
    DEXTER: so he figured out so innocently that now we have three Gods.. and not One ,.
    DEXTER: and he tried for many hours to convince me in that , and then he accused me for being a stupid man .
    DEXTER: i do not blame him u know
    al diazgerrero: for christians this is what they call a private interpretation of the bible, that is to conclude on things they are not specificly stated
    DEXTER: he never said a word out of the Bible . he was reading and quoting .
    DEXTER: so my point is :
    DEXTER: he never knew that there was a verse added to the bible and them omitted in the modern bibles that say God is three in one . and maybe no one told him so , and he tried his best to conclude the right faith from the bible .
    DEXTER: but he sadly failed to reach Trinity the way Christians do today ..
    DEXTER: God was supposed to be more clear int he Bible regardning His nature .. if He was Trinity for real .
    al diazgerrero: 1 min. pls
    DEXTER: ok . and I hope u understand what I mean: if someone who never heard of christianity , took the Bible and read it , and was asked to conclude the nature of God, who would never come to the form of Trinity .. but rather he would be the same as our friend here . he would conclude the same result that our friend found : God is one in OT and now He is Three Gods in NT ,, and that these three are three Gods and not one God I hope u get my point .
    al diazgerrero: i get your point
    al diazgerrero: you know that in christianity
    al diazgerrero: there are very many small groups called churches or sects
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and each church or sect even though they all worship jesus, they differ in their main message
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: for example, some of them base their creed on baptism
    DEXTER: but it was supposed for the message of Jesus to be clear in the Bible and that it must not be of contraversary .. u know what I mean
    DEXTER: since the main goal for JEsus that He guides humanity , then why would be vage in the Bible to see the main pillars of christianity especailly during the lifetime of JEsus
    al diazgerrero: other beleviers, manke enphasis on the holy spirit
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: others like the adventists
    al diazgerrero: make enphasis on the ten commandments, like resting on saturday
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: there are the witnesses of jehova
    al diazgerrero: who say what you say
    DEXTER: then why would JEsus leave us in such confusion if this is the true message of his ?
    al diazgerrero: and all these different doctrines
    al diazgerrero: coexist
    al diazgerrero: i even go to two or three different churches
    al diazgerrero: becuase they all say the truth thier own way
    DEXTER: Why he just says on the cross that I atoned the sins or humanity? or maybe after resurruction ? why would he prefer to leave this secret to Paul and to reveal it to him in his dreams ?
    DEXTER: and even in the story of Paul we can see the contradictions clear that make us suspect the reliability of this man to tell the truth about Jesus
    al diazgerrero: i dont see that these different creeds contradict each other until they say so textually, but really beleive me, if i am said to beleive in the holy spirit that is not in dispute with the fact that i also need to obey the 10 commandments
    DEXTER: i see
    DEXTER: but u did not answer me
    al diazgerrero: i know i have not finished
    DEXTER: heeh sorry
    al diazgerrero: no prob
    al diazgerrero: i am trying to make sense
    al diazgerrero: and its not easy ok
    DEXTER: yeah
    al diazgerrero: pls have mercy and patience
    DEXTER: lol .. u made me laugh .. am sure I will
    al diazgerrero: thanks
    al diazgerrero: first i would like to make this point clear:
    DEXTER: ok
    al diazgerrero: us christians even though we are all, we do not all pay the same attention to all the truth stated in the bible
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: i am not trying to say if this is wrong or right i am just letting you know, giving you a view, of the environment here
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: am aware of this truth .. and it reflects in the fact that christians are not in the same faith and concept regarding Jesus and God..
    DEXTER: and thier point of view differs not only in churches but from one person to another
    al diazgerrero: so i am saying this because i want you to notice that if the christians being christians have trouble trying to understand each other, how more difficult it is for a none christian to understand us ?
    DEXTER: yeah .. exactly ..
    DEXTER: that is a fact w
    DEXTER: I can feel it everyday
    DEXTER: each one is quite different from the other . and u can rarely see two share the exact conceptions
    al diazgerrero: have you asked yuorself why this is
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: yes ,, and I found the answer is that the Bible is not being clear with these conceptions and all the creeds - or most of it - are concluded and not adopted as it is from the Bible
    al diazgerrero: that is in part true
    DEXTER: no offense
    al diazgerrero: dont worry, you can never offend me, sometimes as i am human i can get impatient but you would never offend me
    DEXTER: and I would never mean to , though sometimes it might sound so
    al diazgerrero: as i said that is part true, but have you noticed what the bible says about this apparent confusion, becuase cristian don't feel confused, they disagree but they are not confused
    DEXTER: am not getting the point actually .. please rephrase it
    al diazgerrero: ok,
    al diazgerrero: it is like like when one does not know how to speak a certain other language
    al diazgerrero: when you start learning this new language you will certainly need guidance
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and the way you will learn
    al diazgerrero: 1 min pls
    al diazgerrero: ok, and the way you will learn is not only determined by the new knowledge you are aquiring, but also by the method and the personality of the teacher
    al diazgerrero: why is this
    al diazgerrero: becuase in the firts place in the way jesus planned it
    al diazgerrero: he firts told his aplostols to only visit the house of israel
    al diazgerrero: and it so happened that as this house rejected the doctrine of jesus
    al diazgerrero: he went to other people outside
    al diazgerrero: this house
    al diazgerrero: and for this task he chose a different person, different in many ways, a person as different as pablo
    al diazgerrero: paul
    al diazgerrero: he was the chosen apostole to give the message to the gentiles
    al diazgerrero: but not before that the firts apostoles did their job
    al diazgerrero: that is why paul in his writings say
    al diazgerrero: something like this
    al diazgerrero: are we from apolo?
    al diazgerrero: are we from paul?
    al diazgerrero: are we from christ
    al diazgerrero: ?
    al diazgerrero: refering to the diferent teachers
    al diazgerrero: and he adds
    al diazgerrero: christ is not divided
    al diazgerrero: apolo planted, and i watered, but jesus, is the one in charge of the growth
    al diazgerrero: are you getting me ?
    DEXTER: fine . lemmi ask this . yes i got u
    DEXTER: does God change his mind ?
    al diazgerrero: in his basic plan no
    DEXTER: First , he was teaching someting for the jews and then sudenly he teaches something else completely
    al diazgerrero: but it is written that sometimes he has changed his mid
    al diazgerrero: mind
    DEXTER: fine .. now tell me ..
    DEXTER: what is the proove that Paul has to make us sure about what he says , and that Jesus is really teaching him , and that these are not his own inventions ?
    DEXTER: u know , these things are completely dangerous , as we said , he changed the whole message of Jesus during his life time .
    al diazgerrero: the only proof we have of this is that he never glorified himself he always glorified jesus
    DEXTER: do u think that is a good proof to sheck thr reality of his claims ?
    DEXTER: Islam glorified Jesus as well . maybe more than the Bible in many points
    al diazgerrero: jesus told tomas, you beleived becuase you saw, but joyful is whom without seeing beleived
    al diazgerrero: paul did not see jesus at all, and he was blind for three days
    DEXTER: and what did Thomas believe ? that Jesus was God ?
    DEXTER: none of the apostles believed that JEsus was God
    al diazgerrero: that he was alive after being dead in the cross
    al diazgerrero: no
    al diazgerrero: no apostoles beleived
    al diazgerrero: that is why when one apostole asked him
    al diazgerrero: show us the father
    al diazgerrero: jesus answered
    al diazgerrero: i have been all this time with you and you still don't know me
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: I have good explanation for this statement , but I prefer to talk about it later
    DEXTER: now tell me .. If Jesus was God, then why would He say that Father is our God and His God ? Does God have a God ?
    al diazgerrero: may ia sak you something
    DEXTER: yeah sure
    al diazgerrero: i ask you somthing ?
    al diazgerrero: why don't you tell me what you personaly think ?
    al diazgerrero: i would like to know what is your opinion, of all the things you know and have read from the bible
    DEXTER: am sorry .. am back
    DEXTER: ok i will answer that ..
    DEXTER: Islam is a religion of knowledge .. and God in Islam encourages us to learn and read .. He encourages us to have faith after thinking , and never asked us to have blinf faith .. God in Islam gave us the mind for a main purpose : to check the validity of His teachings to be truely from God Himslef , and not a human-invention.
    DEXTER: the first verse that was revealed to Muhammad was: Read in the name of Who Created ..
    al diazgerrero: ok, know do you know that in order to do that you only need to use your brain
    DEXTER: lemmi explain
    DEXTER: haven't finished
    al diazgerrero: but in the bible we are encouregd to beleive in our heart
    al diazgerrero: i know
    al diazgerrero: go on
    DEXTER: ok thanks
    DEXTER: God said in the Quran : We (in repect from of plural) shall show them our signs in the Horizons and in theirsleves till it becomes clear to them that this is the truth (my own tranlsation)
    DEXTER: and as the sinece develops , Muslims become more and more sure of the Islamic message that it is the Genuine Religion from God and that all what the Quran said was absolutely correct
    DEXTER: Quran said that
    DEXTER: that the true message of Jesus was not mantained as it was in the time of Jesus and humanity tampered with the word of God and changed it over the ages..
    DEXTER: and new discoveries of the manuscripts agree to this fact ,. therefore we have more than 14000 manuscripts not even one same as anohter ,. and u may look for that up to see it truely admitted by shcolars
    DEXTER: and the Quran said another thing : that Jesus is an elect messenger of God .. and not God ..
    DEXTER: and whenever we try to prove that he is God from the Bible , we can se that there is another Verse that explains the satement JEsus was trying to say ..
    DEXTER: and the Quran says that Jesus never asked ppl to worship him or claimed that he is God
    DEXTER: and that is quite clear in the Bible
    DEXTER: and also
    DEXTER: the Quran said that Jesus was not crucified , but it was made appear to them .. meaning that someone else took the likeness of Jesus and was put to death instead ..
    DEXTER: and whenever ppl argue about this matter, we see that this fact is correct for many reasons .. and since we never talked about it , then I would ratehr not go throuhg it now . it is a long search
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

  4. #14
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Apr 2005
    المشاركات
    105
    آخر نشاط
    23-12-2006
    على الساعة
    09:19 AM

    افتراضي مشاركة: حواري مع نصراني

    DEXTER: so my point is :
    DEXTER: we are encouraged to test the truth that was mentioned in the Quran , not only regarding Jesus , but also for everything - and also enouraged to share ppl with our findings .. so that the true message of God would be available for those who are looking for it ..
    DEXTER: i know that u disagree about many things , but this is my point at last: that we share together our findings and test the teachings in the Bible and in the Quran to see wehter they are genuinely from God or invented by someone esle .
    DEXTER: that is my personal Goal for all of that . If u are still interested in it after all , I would be pleased to share whatever I have with u .. and if u are not , then u are absolutely free .. and we can be still friends.
    DEXTER: the Quran gives some clues to where we start ,, like Quran said :
    DEXTER: the likeness of Jesus for God is same as Adam , He created him from soil and told him to BE! and He was ..
    DEXTER: so this gives us as muslims that the miriculous birth of Jesus is not a good clue to make Jesus God since Adam was without father or mother ..
    DEXTER: and mentions somethig else :
    DEXTER: in my own words: that Jesus and his mother were eating food ,, and that is one of the examples that God showed to refer to their humanity ,.,
    DEXTER: this verse means that If Jesus was eating and drinking like all humans , then he must go after all to the bathroom .. and uses a stone to clean himslef up .. that is absolutely unsuitable for God to do .. for God deos not eat or drink and is in need od nothing from His creation
    DEXTER: these are some of the Quranic sings that God gave us .
    DEXTER: and the whole point is that we share these points together .. if u are interested, I would be pleased to go on till I finish all my points. and IF u feel like this is Quite enough and u never want to hear a word about this anymore , then I understand completely .. and trust me , I would never be sad ..
    DEXTER: we would always keep in touch as friends
    DEXTER: are u still there ?
    al diazgerrero: im here
    al diazgerrero: you can go on if you like
    DEXTER: I would love to my friend
    DEXTER: this is my pleasure . for God in Islam will reward me so greatly for my deed whatever the result was.
    DEXTER: Muhammad asked us to deliver for him to others even one sign (or verse)
    al diazgerrero: ok, i see
    DEXTER: and we are greatly rewarded for this , for Muhammad said that it is better for someone to guide another to Islam , rather than fighting in islamic battles and die there .. meaning: the reward is so great that it is humanly uncountable
    al diazgerrero: i see
    DEXTER: hm . lemmi ask u something.. have u ever studied Islam ?
    al diazgerrero: i have read the koran
    DEXTER: aha ,.. then tell me . is the position of Jesus in the Quran - is the only thing that u hate or disagree , or there are many points that make u believe that this is a human message and not from God?
    al diazgerrero: i dont think it is a human message
    DEXTER: then what it is ?
    al diazgerrero: it is a spiritual message
    DEXTER: well , I meant to ask : is that - what Quran said about Jesus - is the only reason that make u think that Quran is humanly-composed and not revealed from God ? that was my Q
    al diazgerrero: no, i kow that spirits exists
    al diazgerrero: and i don't hate the koran, its a piece of work
    DEXTER: i see..
    DEXTER: now let me ask u something..
    al diazgerrero: and their are spirits that do not recognize jesus
    al diazgerrero: as he is
    al diazgerrero: but i don't have a problem with that
    DEXTER: God promised to belss the nation of Ismael in the same way that He promised to Bless the nation of Isac .
    DEXTER: isn't that right ?
    al diazgerrero: not the same way
    DEXTER: it is mentioned that both shall be blessed .
    DEXTER: and the same word was used for both
    al diazgerrero: bless yes, but not the same kind of blessing, when speaking of issac he spoke of a different blessing
    DEXTER: fine, but we agree that this bless goes for both ,,
    DEXTER: and what was the bless of God to Isac ?
    DEXTER: wasn't it Moses and Jesus ?
    al diazgerrero: that through his genealogy jesus would be born
    DEXTER: good
    DEXTER: we agree to this point
    DEXTER: now tell me , why do we apply one attitude to Isac while when it comes to Ismael , we change our attitude ?
    al diazgerrero: it is not a matter of attitude, let me explain
    DEXTER: if God said that Ismael will be blessed and Isac too . and Jesus was the bless of Isac according to the christian belief , and Moses according to the JEws, and both according to the Islamic Faith .. then what was the belss of Ismael ?
    al diazgerrero: then it would become a big and prosperous nation
    DEXTER: good ,. now let me ask
    al diazgerrero: but would you like me to explain about the attitued
    al diazgerrero: that it is not about attitude
    DEXTER: I have one point and don't wanna lose it . let me finish please
    al diazgerrero: ok
    DEXTER: now this great nation.. was it before Muhammad when Arabs were ignorants and never been heard of , or after Muahmmad when Islam was all over the world (mostly) and Arabs were in their best times ever ?
    DEXTER: u know that Islam was in spain too..
    DEXTER: and that was after Muhammad ,,right ? and not before . not one single time before . right ?
    DEXTER: I just wanna know .. was this great nation after or before Muhammad ?
    al diazgerrero: i am not sure because i ignore your history, but one nation can not be strong if it is not united, and that is what the koran do, it united the arabic world becuase before that they all went towards their own idols
    DEXTER: good.. I can assure to u that it was after Muhammad and never been before
    DEXTER: now let me ask another Q that comes to mind
    DEXTER: Does God bless a nation with a false Prophet ?
    DEXTER: Do u think that the Bless of Ismael to have a great nation by a false prophet?
    DEXTER: since God blessed Isac by Jesus and he was not a false one, then the same must go to the nation of Ismael .
    DEXTER: God does not misguide ppl .
    DEXTER: a great nation came to earth and his bless was fulfilled by a false prophet ? do u agree to that ?
    DEXTER: does the bless come by lying? does God enourage liars ?
    DEXTER: and bless their nation ?
    DEXTER: would u like to see another Prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible? there are plenty
    al diazgerrero: go ahead
    DEXTER: and Muhammad is mentioned by name in Herbow in song of songs .. it was said that way : Muhammadym ..
    DEXTER: meaning: Muhammad the greatest ..
    DEXTER: but when it was translated by jews to other languages , it was translated as a description and not a name
    DEXTER: this name was not known beofre Muhammad ,. therefore they did not know that this is a name . and when Muahammad came from Ismael and not Isac , he was rejected by most of the jews for that reason and they still till today hiding his name in Herbow and translate it as description ,,
    DEXTER: another prophecy about Muhammad . from the old testiment .
    DEXTER: u can find lots of the prophecies in the book of Isaiah ..
    al diazgerrero: i am here ok
    DEXTER: If u know the biography of Muhammad u can see what I mean clearly just by urself
    DEXTER: and u would not need my help .
    al diazgerrero: i like the way you explain it
    DEXTER: one of the most importnat prophecies :
    DEXTER: let me get the exact word for it ,, it is importnat to realize the exact words
    al diazgerrero: tyt
    DEXTER: there is one verse that fortells the three elect messengers of God: Moses , Jesus and Mohammad
    DEXTER: and this verse of the Bible is mentioned in the Quran in different manner ,.,.
    DEXTER: lets check it together
    al diazgerrero: i have to go for a moment, keep writing i will be back in an instant
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: “And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.”
    Deuteronomy 33:1

    DEXTER: this is one of the most importnat prophecies of the Bible regarding : Moses , Jesus and Muhammad in that order
    DEXTER: let see this verse together..
    DEXTER: first we have to know where these places are: Sinai, Seir , Paran
    DEXTER: Sinai is the place where Moses recived the message of God , and that is in the Desert of Egypt in the east between Eygpt and Jordan.
    DEXTER: Seir is the place where Jesus was sent , and it is in the place of the Dead Sea now , and in the River that Jesus was Baptised in .. River of Jordan ..
    DEXTER: and Paran is a name of one of the mountains of Mekkah in the Arabian desert in the Gulf .. and Mekkah is the place where Muhammad was born and recieved his first revealaiotn .
    DEXTER: this mountain is the mountain where Muhammad was and recieved the first revalation ..
    DEXTER: it is in the biography of Muhammad .
    al diazgerrero: ok
    al diazgerrero: it sounds good
    DEXTER: now lets see what the verse exactly says :
    DEXTER: it says that God first came in Sinai . and that was the beginning of the Bless of Isac and the message of God .
    al diazgerrero: i don't agree
    DEXTER: in what point ?
    al diazgerrero: they received the law there
    DEXTER: yeah
    DEXTER: exactly . the law was received there
    al diazgerrero: the blessing came before, and to all of us
    DEXTER: and that is a sign for the beginnig of a new Law
    al diazgerrero: before the law and before the circumcision of abraham
    al diazgerrero: so you can say you are doubled bllesed becuase you are aslo son of abraham
    DEXTER: a sign that God send His message to Moses ,. and that is the meaning of Lord came to Sinai
    DEXTER: and then .. God rose in Seir ,, where Jesus was sent ,.
    DEXTER: and that is another message from God
    DEXTER: and last message where God said: He Shined from Paran ..
    DEXTER: and that was the message that Muhammad recieved .
    DEXTER: in that order ,,
    DEXTER: from exactly the same three places where the message was revealed .
    al diazgerrero: may i say something while i stil have the time
    DEXTER: sure
    DEXTER: though i did not finish my points
    DEXTER: go ahead .. am listening
    al diazgerrero: i know but you said plenty enough so i could understand you, and i am a quik learner
    al diazgerrero: *quick
    DEXTER: ok
    al diazgerrero: i said before that humans have different spiritual needs
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and as you said muslims are the descendents of ismael,
    al diazgerrero: this events took place before moses
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: muslims did not receive the law
    DEXTER: May I comment now ?
    al diazgerrero: the hebrews did
    al diazgerrero: so if no law
    al diazgerrero: no sin
    al diazgerrero: you do not need a savior like the hebrews do
    DEXTER: May I talk ?
    al diazgerrero: you can
    DEXTER: thanks
    DEXTER: first of all , Muslims are not the descendents of Ismael . but rather Muhammad was .. and if u wanna make sure , I can give u the the names exactly . Arabs were famouse for keeping records for descendents ..
    al diazgerrero: ok, wait
    DEXTER: another thing: this events did not take place before Moses ., for God does not apply time to himself and he is beyond time , thats why we can see God in the Bible and the Quran talking in past tense in the meaning of future .
    DEXTER: go ahead
    al diazgerrero: if muhammad is descendent of ismael, and muslims follow muhammad then...
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: as you said it is through him that you are blessed, so certainly you are descendents of ismael
    DEXTER: my friend , not All arabs are descentants of Ismael : meaning we are not relatives to Ismael ..
    DEXTER: not all of us ,.
    DEXTER: some tribes were sons of Ismael and they are well known
    DEXTER: the tribe of Muhammad was one of them - from Kidar side
    al diazgerrero: but you are all as a nation through the koran, that was written through muhammad
    DEXTER: aha
    DEXTER: yeh ,, one nation of Islam . different societies and different countries
    DEXTER: and different origins
    al diazgerrero: but no problem i am probably wrong
    DEXTER: ok
    DEXTER: so I have another point in this porphecy
    al diazgerrero: go on
    DEXTER: if we see what God said we realize that shining was first in Siani . and then He rose up from Seir .. and then completed the shining in Paran ,, and it gives us the picture of sun rising from one place .. and coming from another and its shining completes in Paran
    DEXTER: another point :
    DEXTER: and he came with ten thousands of saints
    DEXTER: and that is in Paran according to the context
    al diazgerrero: who are these 10,000saints
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: 10 000 was the number of muslims with muhammad when he came back to Mekkah (Paran) after imigrating from it .. 10 000 muslims among the best muslims at that time .
    DEXTER: and the reason there were called saints :
    al diazgerrero: i know who a saint is
    DEXTER: because they came to Mekkah not to fight , but to perform Haj, am not sure u know what It means in English
    DEXTER: they came to perform on of the islamic five pillars that they visit Mekkah and have the worship of Haj in there . and if u read about this worhsip, u will understand what I mean
    DEXTER: and in that event Muhammad spoke to these saints :
    DEXTER: that God has forgiven all previous sins of theirs ..
    DEXTER: thats why they were called saints
    al diazgerrero: no i dont
    DEXTER: how about another one?
    DEXTER: if u like
    al diazgerrero: let me say something
    DEXTER: go ahead
    al diazgerrero: in the bible a saint is a servant of god
    DEXTER: exactly
    al diazgerrero: a servant not a redemer
    DEXTER: yeah..
    DEXTER: what is a redemer ? check the spelling ..i did not get it
    al diazgerrero: and how can god forgive sins just like that, if there is a law, and the only way to clean the sin is with blood
    al diazgerrero: a redemptor
    al diazgerrero: is that correct
    al diazgerrero: ?
    DEXTER: yeah
    DEXTER: i got it
    DEXTER: lemmi ask something ..
    DEXTER: do u doubt the mercy of God?
    DEXTER: forget the law now .. am asking it in general
    DEXTER: don't u think that God is the most merciful ?
    DEXTER: I think that u agree to the fact that there is no man merciful like God is
    al diazgerrero: yes, but still he made the law, and he can nto possibly go against his own law
    al diazgerrero: when a crime happens somebody must pay
    al diazgerrero: the judge is just and merciful, but there is a law
    al diazgerrero: it is like
    DEXTER: when u believed that Paul went against Jesus' teaching to the jews , how did then God go against the law ?
    DEXTER: law was said to never have pigs and many things we went through befoer .. while Paul threw that all away
    al diazgerrero: paul lived after christ offered his blood for us in payment for all our sins
    al diazgerrero: no, no
    al diazgerrero: listen
    al diazgerrero: dont mistake the Law with the law
    DEXTER: and since God is the most Just . why has someone to pay penelty instead of the other ? do u agree that one of your son may pay the penelty of a murder another son comitted ? is that fair and Just ?
    al diazgerrero: the Law the moral Law
    al diazgerrero: the one that teach us good from wrong are the ten commandments
    al diazgerrero: that is the Law
    DEXTER: that is not Fair at all . and the one who puts the Law is beyond the Law .. He can do whatever He wants .. and even change that Law to fit to all humanity .. and thats what Happaend with the Law of Muhammad - Islam
    al diazgerrero: explain yourself, or should i explain first
    DEXTER: a new Law for a new message . message for all humanity , while we can see clearly that Jesus was sent to the jews only through all his missionary life
    DEXTER: thats why he was under the Law of Moses
    al diazgerrero: may i say something
    DEXTER: sure go ahead
    al diazgerrero: jesushimself
    al diazgerrero: before leaving earth
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: prayed for his apostoles
    al diazgerrero: and he prayed asking for for the apostoles and for the ppl after the apostoles that would learn about jesus through them
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: but lets not get lost
    DEXTER: one thing i wanna comment ..
    al diazgerrero: we were speaking of the most of all item: the redemption
    al diazgerrero: the mercy of god
    DEXTER: since Jesus was praying for his apostles , I wanna ask somethin : whom he was praying to? if he is God then He does not need to pray ? or does God pray to himslef ?
    al diazgerrero: he certainly forgives us
    DEXTER: go ahead
    al diazgerrero: but the law needed to be fulfilled
    al diazgerrero: christ payed for us with his blood, it is only through jesus that we receive the grace of god for only jesus died for us being himself clean of sin
    al diazgerrero: and never mind if he is not god
    al diazgerrero: according to the scriptures
    al diazgerrero: he is not god
    al diazgerrero: but according to the scriptures he is the messiah
    DEXTER: yeah
    al diazgerrero: christ means messiah
    DEXTER: annointed one
    al diazgerrero: what is annointed
    DEXTER: that is the meaning of the Messiah in Herbow
    al diazgerrero: ok
    al diazgerrero: but the fact is that if you are aware that there is sin,
    DEXTER: sure
    al diazgerrero: the law states clearly in the prophet ezequiel
    al diazgerrero: the soul that sins that will surely die
    DEXTER: wait !!! Good statement !!
    DEXTER: the soul that sins that will surely die !!! and not another soul !
    DEXTER: it is not fair at all and it is not Just of God to shoulder someone all the sins of Humanity
    al diazgerrero: yes and it is also written that every man has sinned
    al diazgerrero: no, you are not listening
    DEXTER: go ahead
    al diazgerrero: every man has sinned, ok, so we all deserve death, but the merciful judge gave his own son to die for us so we can live forever, because he loves us, and does not want us to perish
    al diazgerrero: and also if his son never has and never will sin it is clear that the death has no authority in him, his son
    DEXTER: since he loves us , and since he knows that we are all sinners . why would he put Law that would kill us all ?
    al diazgerrero: adam was warned
    al diazgerrero: men has never been a victim of god but of his own decisions
    DEXTER: if that point is correct , then God would spread his love in the first place but putting a Law that is more merciful to us .. u know what I mean ? and there would be no need for this complications
    al diazgerrero: adam was explicitly warned, the day you eat, you will certainly die
    DEXTER: and Adam did not Die though
    DEXTER: u see what I mean ?
    DEXTER: 1 min
    al diazgerrero: god is absolutely perfect and he does not expect less then that from his sons
    DEXTER: I have one point to clear ,. so please I wish to make it clear for u
    al diazgerrero: just let me say this
    DEXTER: ok
    al diazgerrero: adam did not die instantly, but the process of death started in that very moment
    al diazgerrero: you know that as we grow older
    DEXTER: we have talked about this before .. haven't we ?
    al diazgerrero: evry day we are dying a little bit
    DEXTER: we I showed u that this is not correct since we are not the only creatuers who die
    al diazgerrero: yes but you mentioned this
    DEXTER: if we were intended to live forever in this life , then there is no need for resurruction..
    DEXTER: but we were itended to live in this life for a while .. and in this life we are not judged for what we do .. and we have complete free will ..
    al diazgerrero: the need of resurrection is exists because this body dies, becuase of the law of sin, and we have a promise of a new body
    DEXTER: but after resurruction , the hudgement comes for our deeds . and God made sure that we have ways to wash away our sins ..
    DEXTER: go ahead .. finish ur point
    al diazgerrero has signed back in. (25/08/1426 08:17 م)

    al diazgerrero: that is why is so important to use the free will wisely, becuase certainly we will be judged, if god did not forgive at the moment his own house -israel- becuase of their acts, then how do we expect to be forgived if we do not beleive and obey the very one that god sent to forgive us, and to clean us through his blood
    DEXTER: fine .. lemmi get one thing clear
    DEXTER: one thing that we agree that God does not need blood for forgivness. He does not get benefit from it nor harm .. this Blood was i am talking about was intended to be like that :
    DEXTER: if someone wanted to be forgived, then the best way to do that is to do something good. in that way we wash away our sins.. this blood atonement in the Law of Moses - and we share the same thing in Islam - is to be for God , so that we spread the meat for poor ppl. and in that way we do good thing for washing a bad thing .. this is the meaning of the atonement . God is not a bloody God . He does not need anything to forgive us once we ask for it . that is not hard for Him comparing to Creating all this universe ..
    DEXTER: but what happened at late times of the jews
    DEXTER: that the jews who are keeping the scriptures and the heads of the temple , made the religion of moses and the atonement as trade .. and told ppl that there is no forgiveness till blood is shed .. and they made it as trade they gained lots of money from it .. and thats why Jesus alsways cursed them for that deed ..
    DEXTER: they said :
    DEXTER: there is no mercy till blood is shed , no matter where the meat goes .. but is the most important . now God is not a Bloody God as we said , but Jews made it a trade for their own benifits .. the wisdom of this blood atonement is that meat goes to the poor and that way sins are washed away by doing good deeds..
    DEXTER: thats why Jews at that time said these things and thats why Jesus cursed them all over the four Gospels
    DEXTER: they lied to ppl and told them that Blood is the most important .. and not the good deed of it
    DEXTER: we - as muslims - share the same thing about this atonement .,.
    DEXTER: but it is not the only way to wash sins away
    DEXTER: there are countless ways to do that
    DEXTER: this is the true Mercy of God ,. every act and Law is for our benifit and there is a hidden wisdom in God's Law ..
    al diazgerrero: one moment
    DEXTER: we in Islam have the most merciful law ever God revealed to Humanity .. and Christians call it in the Gospels: Kingdom of God that Jesus preached ..
    DEXTER: go ahead .
    al diazgerrero: remember when the jews left egipt
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: almost inmediately
    al diazgerrero: he killed and spread the blood
    al diazgerrero: on the law
    al diazgerrero: and on the ppl
    DEXTER: i got ur point
    DEXTER: and I wanna ask back as a reference to my answer to this :
    DEXTER: who wrote these events ? Did Moses right them ? no .. the Jews did .. the Pharisies who are telling ppl that God is a Bloody God and no mercy till blood is shed , , this thing is never mentioned in the Quran ,. though Moses is the most Prophet mentioned in the Quran .. so it was written my the Pharisies and not Moses , and when we see such a thing , and then we see that Jesus was cursing them all over his preching , we can realize the reason for this curse
    DEXTER: Jesus was cursing them because they took the Law leterally and ignored its wisdom which is the main reason the Law was put to achieve .. the wisdom of Law and not empty acts of humans..
    DEXTER: what Does it make any difference to God and to us for a Blood shed with not a single benifit to us or to God? God does not ask for empty Laws .. this is the wisdom of the blood wash ..
    al diazgerrero: moses said during this act
    al diazgerrero: this is our pact
    DEXTER: aha
    al diazgerrero: and i stopped writting because my boss called me, and i have something to do at this moment
    al diazgerrero: i min pls
    al diazgerrero: 1*
    DEXTER: tyt

    DEXTER: my friend .. take ur time and I have to leave now .it is time for me to get home.. we shall continue later .. take care .. something I wanna inform u , since u did not like the title of the book I gave u , and u never downloaded it .. this book does not speak in the words of Jesus in the way u think . it deserves to be read .. and it talks about many prophecies of Muhammad in the Bible - both OT and NT - and it gives a better study than the one i can give . I advice u take a look at that chapter in the Book . it is called: Muhammad in the Bible
    DEXTER: mow take care .. i have to leave .. bubye
    لا إِلَـــــهَ إلااللهَ الــــوَاحِــدُ الأَحَـــــدْ


    المَسِيْــــــــحُ رَسُـــوْلُ اللهِ إنْسَـــانٌ فَقَـــطْ
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    القول الصحيح فيما نسب لعيسى المسيح

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    بواسطة مجاهد في الله في المنتدى مشروع كشف تدليس مواقع النصارى
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  5. مشاركات: 7
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حواري مع نصراني

حواري مع نصراني