DEXTER: so my point is :
DEXTER: we are encouraged to test the truth that was mentioned in the Quran , not only regarding Jesus , but also for everything - and also enouraged to share ppl with our findings .. so that the true message of God would be available for those who are looking for it ..
DEXTER: i know that u disagree about many things , but this is my point at last: that we share together our findings and test the teachings in the Bible and in the Quran to see wehter they are genuinely from God or invented by someone esle .
DEXTER: that is my personal Goal for all of that . If u are still interested in it after all , I would be pleased to share whatever I have with u .. and if u are not , then u are absolutely free .. and we can be still friends.
DEXTER: the Quran gives some clues to where we start ,, like Quran said :
DEXTER: the likeness of Jesus for God is same as Adam , He created him from soil and told him to BE! and He was ..
DEXTER: so this gives us as muslims that the miriculous birth of Jesus is not a good clue to make Jesus God since Adam was without father or mother ..
DEXTER: and mentions somethig else :
DEXTER: in my own words: that Jesus and his mother were eating food ,, and that is one of the examples that God showed to refer to their humanity ,.,
DEXTER: this verse means that If Jesus was eating and drinking like all humans , then he must go after all to the bathroom .. and uses a stone to clean himslef up .. that is absolutely unsuitable for God to do .. for God deos not eat or drink and is in need od nothing from His creation
DEXTER: these are some of the Quranic sings that God gave us .
DEXTER: and the whole point is that we share these points together .. if u are interested, I would be pleased to go on till I finish all my points. and IF u feel like this is Quite enough and u never want to hear a word about this anymore , then I understand completely .. and trust me , I would never be sad ..
DEXTER: we would always keep in touch as friends
DEXTER: are u still there ?
al diazgerrero: im here
al diazgerrero: you can go on if you like
DEXTER: I would love to my friend
DEXTER: this is my pleasure . for God in Islam will reward me so greatly for my deed whatever the result was.
DEXTER: Muhammad asked us to deliver for him to others even one sign (or verse)
al diazgerrero: ok, i see
DEXTER: and we are greatly rewarded for this , for Muhammad said that it is better for someone to guide another to Islam , rather than fighting in islamic battles and die there .. meaning: the reward is so great that it is humanly uncountable
al diazgerrero: i see
DEXTER: hm . lemmi ask u something.. have u ever studied Islam ?
al diazgerrero: i have read the koran
DEXTER: aha ,.. then tell me . is the position of Jesus in the Quran - is the only thing that u hate or disagree , or there are many points that make u believe that this is a human message and not from God?
al diazgerrero: i dont think it is a human message
DEXTER: then what it is ?
al diazgerrero: it is a spiritual message
DEXTER: well , I meant to ask : is that - what Quran said about Jesus - is the only reason that make u think that Quran is humanly-composed and not revealed from God ? that was my Q
al diazgerrero: no, i kow that spirits exists
al diazgerrero: and i don't hate the koran, its a piece of work
DEXTER: i see..
DEXTER: now let me ask u something..
al diazgerrero: and their are spirits that do not recognize jesus
al diazgerrero: as he is
al diazgerrero: but i don't have a problem with that
DEXTER: God promised to belss the nation of Ismael in the same way that He promised to Bless the nation of Isac .
DEXTER: isn't that right ?
al diazgerrero: not the same way
DEXTER: it is mentioned that both shall be blessed .
DEXTER: and the same word was used for both
al diazgerrero: bless yes, but not the same kind of blessing, when speaking of issac he spoke of a different blessing
DEXTER: fine, but we agree that this bless goes for both ,,
DEXTER: and what was the bless of God to Isac ?
DEXTER: wasn't it Moses and Jesus ?
al diazgerrero: that through his genealogy jesus would be born
DEXTER: we agree to this point
DEXTER: now tell me , why do we apply one attitude to Isac while when it comes to Ismael , we change our attitude ?
al diazgerrero: it is not a matter of attitude, let me explain
DEXTER: if God said that Ismael will be blessed and Isac too . and Jesus was the bless of Isac according to the christian belief , and Moses according to the JEws, and both according to the Islamic Faith .. then what was the belss of Ismael ?
al diazgerrero: then it would become a big and prosperous nation
DEXTER: good ,. now let me ask
al diazgerrero: but would you like me to explain about the attitued
al diazgerrero: that it is not about attitude
DEXTER: I have one point and don't wanna lose it . let me finish please
al diazgerrero: ok
DEXTER: now this great nation.. was it before Muhammad when Arabs were ignorants and never been heard of , or after Muahmmad when Islam was all over the world (mostly) and Arabs were in their best times ever ?
DEXTER: u know that Islam was in spain too..
DEXTER: and that was after Muhammad ,,right ? and not before . not one single time before . right ?
DEXTER: I just wanna know .. was this great nation after or before Muhammad ?
al diazgerrero: i am not sure because i ignore your history, but one nation can not be strong if it is not united, and that is what the koran do, it united the arabic world becuase before that they all went towards their own idols
DEXTER: good.. I can assure to u that it was after Muhammad and never been before
DEXTER: now let me ask another Q that comes to mind
DEXTER: Does God bless a nation with a false Prophet ?
DEXTER: Do u think that the Bless of Ismael to have a great nation by a false prophet?
DEXTER: since God blessed Isac by Jesus and he was not a false one, then the same must go to the nation of Ismael .
DEXTER: God does not misguide ppl .
DEXTER: a great nation came to earth and his bless was fulfilled by a false prophet ? do u agree to that ?
DEXTER: does the bless come by lying? does God enourage liars ?
DEXTER: and bless their nation ?
DEXTER: would u like to see another Prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible? there are plenty
al diazgerrero: go ahead
DEXTER: and Muhammad is mentioned by name in Herbow in song of songs .. it was said that way : Muhammadym ..
DEXTER: meaning: Muhammad the greatest ..
DEXTER: but when it was translated by jews to other languages , it was translated as a description and not a name
DEXTER: this name was not known beofre Muhammad ,. therefore they did not know that this is a name . and when Muahammad came from Ismael and not Isac , he was rejected by most of the jews for that reason and they still till today hiding his name in Herbow and translate it as description ,,
DEXTER: another prophecy about Muhammad . from the old testiment .
DEXTER: u can find lots of the prophecies in the book of Isaiah ..
al diazgerrero: i am here ok
DEXTER: If u know the biography of Muhammad u can see what I mean clearly just by urself
DEXTER: and u would not need my help .
al diazgerrero: i like the way you explain it
DEXTER: one of the most importnat prophecies :
DEXTER: let me get the exact word for it ,, it is importnat to realize the exact words
al diazgerrero: tyt
DEXTER: there is one verse that fortells the three elect messengers of God: Moses , Jesus and Mohammad
DEXTER: and this verse of the Bible is mentioned in the Quran in different manner ,.,.
DEXTER: lets check it together
al diazgerrero: i have to go for a moment, keep writing i will be back in an instant
DEXTER: “And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.”
DEXTER: this is one of the most importnat prophecies of the Bible regarding : Moses , Jesus and Muhammad in that order
DEXTER: let see this verse together..
DEXTER: first we have to know where these places are: Sinai, Seir , Paran
DEXTER: Sinai is the place where Moses recived the message of God , and that is in the Desert of Egypt in the east between Eygpt and Jordan.
DEXTER: Seir is the place where Jesus was sent , and it is in the place of the Dead Sea now , and in the River that Jesus was Baptised in .. River of Jordan ..
DEXTER: and Paran is a name of one of the mountains of Mekkah in the Arabian desert in the Gulf .. and Mekkah is the place where Muhammad was born and recieved his first revealaiotn .
DEXTER: this mountain is the mountain where Muhammad was and recieved the first revalation ..
DEXTER: it is in the biography of Muhammad .
al diazgerrero: ok
al diazgerrero: it sounds good
DEXTER: now lets see what the verse exactly says :
DEXTER: it says that God first came in Sinai . and that was the beginning of the Bless of Isac and the message of God .
al diazgerrero: i don't agree
DEXTER: in what point ?
al diazgerrero: they received the law there
DEXTER: exactly . the law was received there
al diazgerrero: the blessing came before, and to all of us
DEXTER: and that is a sign for the beginnig of a new Law
al diazgerrero: before the law and before the circumcision of abraham
al diazgerrero: so you can say you are doubled bllesed becuase you are aslo son of abraham
DEXTER: a sign that God send His message to Moses ,. and that is the meaning of Lord came to Sinai
DEXTER: and then .. God rose in Seir ,, where Jesus was sent ,.
DEXTER: and that is another message from God
DEXTER: and last message where God said: He Shined from Paran ..
DEXTER: and that was the message that Muhammad recieved .
DEXTER: in that order ,,
DEXTER: from exactly the same three places where the message was revealed .
al diazgerrero: may i say something while i stil have the time
DEXTER: though i did not finish my points
DEXTER: go ahead .. am listening
al diazgerrero: i know but you said plenty enough so i could understand you, and i am a quik learner
al diazgerrero: *quick
al diazgerrero: i said before that humans have different spiritual needs
al diazgerrero: and as you said muslims are the descendents of ismael,
al diazgerrero: this events took place before moses
al diazgerrero: muslims did not receive the law
DEXTER: May I comment now ?
al diazgerrero: the hebrews did
al diazgerrero: so if no law
al diazgerrero: no sin
al diazgerrero: you do not need a savior like the hebrews do
DEXTER: May I talk ?
al diazgerrero: you can
DEXTER: first of all , Muslims are not the descendents of Ismael . but rather Muhammad was .. and if u wanna make sure , I can give u the the names exactly . Arabs were famouse for keeping records for descendents ..
al diazgerrero: ok, wait
DEXTER: another thing: this events did not take place before Moses ., for God does not apply time to himself and he is beyond time , thats why we can see God in the Bible and the Quran talking in past tense in the meaning of future .
DEXTER: go ahead
al diazgerrero: if muhammad is descendent of ismael, and muslims follow muhammad then...
al diazgerrero: as you said it is through him that you are blessed, so certainly you are descendents of ismael
DEXTER: my friend , not All arabs are descentants of Ismael : meaning we are not relatives to Ismael ..
DEXTER: not all of us ,.
DEXTER: some tribes were sons of Ismael and they are well known
DEXTER: the tribe of Muhammad was one of them - from Kidar side
al diazgerrero: but you are all as a nation through the koran, that was written through muhammad
DEXTER: yeh ,, one nation of Islam . different societies and different countries
DEXTER: and different origins
al diazgerrero: but no problem i am probably wrong
DEXTER: so I have another point in this porphecy
al diazgerrero: go on
DEXTER: if we see what God said we realize that shining was first in Siani . and then He rose up from Seir .. and then completed the shining in Paran ,, and it gives us the picture of sun rising from one place .. and coming from another and its shining completes in Paran
DEXTER: another point :
DEXTER: and he came with ten thousands of saints
DEXTER: and that is in Paran according to the context
al diazgerrero: who are these 10,000saints
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: 10 000 was the number of muslims with muhammad when he came back to Mekkah (Paran) after imigrating from it .. 10 000 muslims among the best muslims at that time .
DEXTER: and the reason there were called saints :
al diazgerrero: i know who a saint is
DEXTER: because they came to Mekkah not to fight , but to perform Haj, am not sure u know what It means in English
DEXTER: they came to perform on of the islamic five pillars that they visit Mekkah and have the worship of Haj in there . and if u read about this worhsip, u will understand what I mean
DEXTER: and in that event Muhammad spoke to these saints :
DEXTER: that God has forgiven all previous sins of theirs ..
DEXTER: thats why they were called saints
al diazgerrero: no i dont
DEXTER: how about another one?
DEXTER: if u like
al diazgerrero: let me say something
DEXTER: go ahead
al diazgerrero: in the bible a saint is a servant of god
al diazgerrero: a servant not a redemer
DEXTER: what is a redemer ? check the spelling ..i did not get it
al diazgerrero: and how can god forgive sins just like that, if there is a law, and the only way to clean the sin is with blood
al diazgerrero: a redemptor
al diazgerrero: is that correct
al diazgerrero: ?
DEXTER: i got it
DEXTER: lemmi ask something ..
DEXTER: do u doubt the mercy of God?
DEXTER: forget the law now .. am asking it in general
DEXTER: don't u think that God is the most merciful ?
DEXTER: I think that u agree to the fact that there is no man merciful like God is
al diazgerrero: yes, but still he made the law, and he can nto possibly go against his own law
al diazgerrero: when a crime happens somebody must pay
al diazgerrero: the judge is just and merciful, but there is a law
al diazgerrero: it is like
DEXTER: when u believed that Paul went against Jesus' teaching to the jews , how did then God go against the law ?
DEXTER: law was said to never have pigs and many things we went through befoer .. while Paul threw that all away
al diazgerrero: paul lived after christ offered his blood for us in payment for all our sins
al diazgerrero: no, no
al diazgerrero: listen
al diazgerrero: dont mistake the Law with the law
DEXTER: and since God is the most Just . why has someone to pay penelty instead of the other ? do u agree that one of your son may pay the penelty of a murder another son comitted ? is that fair and Just ?
al diazgerrero: the Law the moral Law
al diazgerrero: the one that teach us good from wrong are the ten commandments
al diazgerrero: that is the Law
DEXTER: that is not Fair at all . and the one who puts the Law is beyond the Law .. He can do whatever He wants .. and even change that Law to fit to all humanity .. and thats what Happaend with the Law of Muhammad - Islam
al diazgerrero: explain yourself, or should i explain first
DEXTER: a new Law for a new message . message for all humanity , while we can see clearly that Jesus was sent to the jews only through all his missionary life
DEXTER: thats why he was under the Law of Moses
al diazgerrero: may i say something
DEXTER: sure go ahead
al diazgerrero: jesushimself
al diazgerrero: before leaving earth
al diazgerrero: prayed for his apostoles
al diazgerrero: and he prayed asking for for the apostoles and for the ppl after the apostoles that would learn about jesus through them
al diazgerrero: but lets not get lost
DEXTER: one thing i wanna comment ..
al diazgerrero: we were speaking of the most of all item: the redemption
al diazgerrero: the mercy of god
DEXTER: since Jesus was praying for his apostles , I wanna ask somethin : whom he was praying to? if he is God then He does not need to pray ? or does God pray to himslef ?
al diazgerrero: he certainly forgives us
DEXTER: go ahead
al diazgerrero: but the law needed to be fulfilled
al diazgerrero: christ payed for us with his blood, it is only through jesus that we receive the grace of god for only jesus died for us being himself clean of sin
al diazgerrero: and never mind if he is not god
al diazgerrero: according to the scriptures
al diazgerrero: he is not god
al diazgerrero: but according to the scriptures he is the messiah
al diazgerrero: christ means messiah
DEXTER: annointed one
al diazgerrero: what is annointed
DEXTER: that is the meaning of the Messiah in Herbow
al diazgerrero: ok
al diazgerrero: but the fact is that if you are aware that there is sin,
al diazgerrero: the law states clearly in the prophet ezequiel
al diazgerrero: the soul that sins that will surely die
DEXTER: wait !!! Good statement !!
DEXTER: the soul that sins that will surely die !!! and not another soul !
DEXTER: it is not fair at all and it is not Just of God to shoulder someone all the sins of Humanity
al diazgerrero: yes and it is also written that every man has sinned
al diazgerrero: no, you are not listening
DEXTER: go ahead
al diazgerrero: every man has sinned, ok, so we all deserve death, but the merciful judge gave his own son to die for us so we can live forever, because he loves us, and does not want us to perish
al diazgerrero: and also if his son never has and never will sin it is clear that the death has no authority in him, his son
DEXTER: since he loves us , and since he knows that we are all sinners . why would he put Law that would kill us all ?
al diazgerrero: adam was warned
al diazgerrero: men has never been a victim of god but of his own decisions
DEXTER: if that point is correct , then God would spread his love in the first place but putting a Law that is more merciful to us .. u know what I mean ? and there would be no need for this complications
al diazgerrero: adam was explicitly warned, the day you eat, you will certainly die
DEXTER: and Adam did not Die though
DEXTER: u see what I mean ?
DEXTER: 1 min
al diazgerrero: god is absolutely perfect and he does not expect less then that from his sons
DEXTER: I have one point to clear ,. so please I wish to make it clear for u
al diazgerrero: just let me say this
al diazgerrero: adam did not die instantly, but the process of death started in that very moment
al diazgerrero: you know that as we grow older
DEXTER: we have talked about this before .. haven't we ?
al diazgerrero: evry day we are dying a little bit
DEXTER: we I showed u that this is not correct since we are not the only creatuers who die
al diazgerrero: yes but you mentioned this
DEXTER: if we were intended to live forever in this life , then there is no need for resurruction..
DEXTER: but we were itended to live in this life for a while .. and in this life we are not judged for what we do .. and we have complete free will ..
al diazgerrero: the need of resurrection is exists because this body dies, becuase of the law of sin, and we have a promise of a new body
DEXTER: but after resurruction , the hudgement comes for our deeds . and God made sure that we have ways to wash away our sins ..
DEXTER: go ahead .. finish ur point
al diazgerrero has signed back in. (25/08/1426 08:17 م)
al diazgerrero: that is why is so important to use the free will wisely, becuase certainly we will be judged, if god did not forgive at the moment his own house -israel- becuase of their acts, then how do we expect to be forgived if we do not beleive and obey the very one that god sent to forgive us, and to clean us through his blood
DEXTER: fine .. lemmi get one thing clear
DEXTER: one thing that we agree that God does not need blood for forgivness. He does not get benefit from it nor harm .. this Blood was i am talking about was intended to be like that :
DEXTER: if someone wanted to be forgived, then the best way to do that is to do something good. in that way we wash away our sins.. this blood atonement in the Law of Moses - and we share the same thing in Islam - is to be for God , so that we spread the meat for poor ppl. and in that way we do good thing for washing a bad thing .. this is the meaning of the atonement . God is not a bloody God . He does not need anything to forgive us once we ask for it . that is not hard for Him comparing to Creating all this universe ..
DEXTER: but what happened at late times of the jews
DEXTER: that the jews who are keeping the scriptures and the heads of the temple , made the religion of moses and the atonement as trade .. and told ppl that there is no forgiveness till blood is shed .. and they made it as trade they gained lots of money from it .. and thats why Jesus alsways cursed them for that deed ..
DEXTER: they said :
DEXTER: there is no mercy till blood is shed , no matter where the meat goes .. but is the most important . now God is not a Bloody God as we said , but Jews made it a trade for their own benifits .. the wisdom of this blood atonement is that meat goes to the poor and that way sins are washed away by doing good deeds..
DEXTER: thats why Jews at that time said these things and thats why Jesus cursed them all over the four Gospels
DEXTER: they lied to ppl and told them that Blood is the most important .. and not the good deed of it
DEXTER: we - as muslims - share the same thing about this atonement .,.
DEXTER: but it is not the only way to wash sins away
DEXTER: there are countless ways to do that
DEXTER: this is the true Mercy of God ,. every act and Law is for our benifit and there is a hidden wisdom in God's Law ..
al diazgerrero: one moment
DEXTER: we in Islam have the most merciful law ever God revealed to Humanity .. and Christians call it in the Gospels: Kingdom of God that Jesus preached ..
DEXTER: go ahead .
al diazgerrero: remember when the jews left egipt
al diazgerrero: almost inmediately
al diazgerrero: he killed and spread the blood
al diazgerrero: on the law
al diazgerrero: and on the ppl
DEXTER: i got ur point
DEXTER: and I wanna ask back as a reference to my answer to this :
DEXTER: who wrote these events ? Did Moses right them ? no .. the Jews did .. the Pharisies who are telling ppl that God is a Bloody God and no mercy till blood is shed , , this thing is never mentioned in the Quran ,. though Moses is the most Prophet mentioned in the Quran .. so it was written my the Pharisies and not Moses , and when we see such a thing , and then we see that Jesus was cursing them all over his preching , we can realize the reason for this curse
DEXTER: Jesus was cursing them because they took the Law leterally and ignored its wisdom which is the main reason the Law was put to achieve .. the wisdom of Law and not empty acts of humans..
DEXTER: what Does it make any difference to God and to us for a Blood shed with not a single benifit to us or to God? God does not ask for empty Laws .. this is the wisdom of the blood wash ..
al diazgerrero: moses said during this act
al diazgerrero: this is our pact
al diazgerrero: and i stopped writting because my boss called me, and i have something to do at this moment
al diazgerrero: i min pls
al diazgerrero: 1*
DEXTER: my friend .. take ur time and I have to leave now .it is time for me to get home.. we shall continue later .. take care .. something I wanna inform u , since u did not like the title of the book I gave u , and u never downloaded it .. this book does not speak in the words of Jesus in the way u think . it deserves to be read .. and it talks about many prophecies of Muhammad in the Bible - both OT and NT - and it gives a better study than the one i can give . I advice u take a look at that chapter in the Book . it is called: Muhammad in the Bible
DEXTER: mow take care .. i have to leave .. bubye