Thread: Replying the pre t e x t (1)

Replying the pre t e x t that the previous books are free from the Good News about the prophet Mohammed (PBUH)

They have alleged that the prophet Mohammed is not a messenger, and they based their speech on four branches :

1.that the testament ( I mean the message from God), prophecy and the book are just monopolized or limited in Ishaqu's progeny not for Ishmeal's .

2.that the prophet Mohammed have no miracle.

3.that Qura'n is one of human's rarity art so it is not a miracle !!

4.that the previous books like the old testament or new testament are free from the Good News about the prophet Mohammed.

The answer :

Before I face that case directly I need to produce a shortened speech within that opposition which I have observed that it's presentation would be so important within that case, The existence or non-existence of these Good News in the previous books about the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) make no sense!!

Yes: because the message of Islam doesn't need to be proved from other books or sources because it proves itself !! because this message has it's proof inside it , beside that the good news about it in the previous books doesn't add to it anything new ! , and emptiness from those books doesn't disparage the Islamic message .

So don't think that because we FIND proofs from other books about Islam or when we talk about the Good News about the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) from your book means that we need those proofs , NO... let me correct for you, it is just for your sake not for anybody else beside that this case and this research just for HELPING the truths seekers !! But well ... I am not saying that because there is no Good New in the previous books and I am going to talk about them through TWO sides :

1.Good News from The Old Testament.

2.Good News from The New Testament.

1-Good News in The Old Testament :

The Good News in The Old Testament and it's codicils have been multiplied about the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) , but Jews have deleted all the frank means about it and they made them as a possible t e x ts which allow them to turn the real means away from the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) but though there are many strong proofs remained even after their distortions and modifications and they are all mean the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) , doesn't mean anybody else, and it would be impossible to mean anybody else, because the internal means are just mean the prophet of Islam, because if somebody said about one of these proofs that they were meaning or talking about Jesus, that means Bible is messy and frankly wrong and now let's explain :

"And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death."

And then said :

"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran," (DT:33:1-2).

in this t e x t 3 Good News

first: good news about the prophecy of the prophet Moses when he talked on Sanai mountain " The LORD came from Sinai" to God , because we all know that the Lord talked directly to Moses.

second: the prophecy of the prophet Jesus , and Seir is a neighboring village to Jerusalem, where the prophet Jesus got the order of his message " and rose up from Seir unto them".

Third: the prophecy of the prophet Mohammed, and Paran is Mecca where the prophet Mohammed were born , originated and sent " he shined forth from mount Paran" ( DT : 33:1-2 ), and note; sequence of events, 1-Moses. 2-Juses. 3- Mohammed. ( everything from Bible).

The question here is Why bible used the word "shined " when it was talking about Mohammed ?? what is the link between the word shined and Mohammed ??

Well… the answer is; if you red the biography of the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) you would know the relation between the word in bible and Mohammed.. Mohammed got the inspiration at Hera' cave , which locate in ( AL NOUR ) mountain, AL-nour is an Arabic word which means ( light ), so it means " The Light Mountain " shined & light …. Strange, isn't it?


Anyway, let's be back to our topic, The t e x t in Bible had a tiding and two glad tidings.


The tiding is that Lord is reminding Moses of his favor to Moses when Lord sent him as a prophet to his people when he said " And this is the blessing ".


And the two glad tidings :

The first one related to Jesus, and the second one is related to Mohammed, and about Jew's attitude against this explaining was to deny (sure), they deny the first glad tiding to be for Jesus and they refuse the second glad tiding to be for Mohammed, and about Christians attitude, they said that there is no glad tiding about Mohammed, but there was for Jesus, and sure they are wrong and had a lot of fallacies , let's just explore them:


They said that Paran is not Mecca, but Paran is Elat, and Elat is a town in Palestine, this is what Christians thought in the beginning, and the authors of the dictionary of the Holy Book agreed unanimously on that, and their aim was so clear, because if they admit that Paran is Mecca so they have only two choices : *1* to believe that Mohammed is the messenger and Islam is the right way ( and sure they rather to die than believing in that ) or *2* to contradict their holy book.

And at another part of Bible, it will prove clearly that Paran is not Elat which locate in Palestine,


And also beside that Paran has been frequented in Bible many times, it has been frequented ( for example) at Ishmael's story with his mother Hagar where Torah said " And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt ". ( GN : 21:21 )., so about the allegation of the authors of the dictionary of the holy book about ( Paran = Elat ), they have to note that there was no prophet was sent from Elat to make the glad tiding is honest, beside that Jesus got his message at Seir not at Paran, finally a lot of them admitted in the end that Paran is Mecca, beside that Paran mountain is Al-Nour mountain which have Hera' cave located in, and the emigration of Ishmael and his mother Hagar to Mecca is more clear than the sun in the sky, and the third proof is the sequence of events , 1-Moses. 2-Juses. 3- Mohammed.

Now let's live with another glad tiding from Torah (The Old Testament) about the prophet Mohammed, and this one is a big proof to whom understand..!

In (DT:18:18) we find that t e x t : " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (you), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. " … as it is saying that there was a promises from God to Moses at the end of Moses' message that he will send a messenger to Israel LIKE Moses (BPUH). And like Moses here means by sending him with new law LIKE Moses did, not like Jesus did, because Jesus came to COMPLETE what Moses started " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. ". Matthew (MT:5:17).

And because it was a strong proof that it was talking about Mohammed (BPUH) we find that both Jews and Christians are having different attitudes about it.. let's explain more..


About Jews, they have two opinions about it:

that the t e x t is not a tiding, it was just denial, and in Arabic language they said " there is (Hamza)=some Arabian letter which means question if it came before the letter (A) in Arabic .. " so we find the word I will raise means in Arabic Aoqeam so by adding the (Hamza) it will be A-Aoqeam ? which will make us understand the speaker as asking us not telling information, and which will mean in English Should I raise ? , so they said it is like that " should I raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee? ", and here if you notice you will find it came as a question, and here we will find the Torah itself is answering them at the next Number (DT:18:19) " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. " , here we find that if the speech was banishment so the whole sentences must be banishment also, so he won't have to say what is at DT:18:19, because for example.. " when you decide to do something you don't have to ask others, then you say " I will do… and …. , then who will or won't come with me (for example) I will do… and do… " the same thing is working with those t e x ts.. first, God decided to RAISE.. then he said whosoever will not ….ect " !!! ,and by another way … if it was a question as they are saying so how it has been translated in English as " I WILL RAISE " ??? why it didn't came as a question in the English copy also ????

Jews felt they are mistaken about the first point, and they said no worries if it was a tiding not question, but in the t e x t he doesn't mean Jesus or Mohammed (PBU.them), but he meant in the t e x t Joshua or Samuel…!! (they even don't know who exactly to attach the t e x t with !!!) and here I should show you that meeting between Dr. Ahmed Deedat and "Fan Herden" the priest, but before I show you that meeting and explore it with you, I need to explore Christians opinion about that case.

CHRISTIANS ATTITUDE:

About Christians, they are saying that the prophecy is related to Jesus, and they refuse it to be for Mohammed, and we knew before that Jews refuse it to be for Jesus.. anyway ….Christians have a lot of fallacies about their attitude, it is because they are saying that the prophecy is related to a prophet from Isaac's progeny not from Ishmael's progeny ..!!!!!!!, and they are saying that Mohammed is from Ishmael's progeny, so how come that God send to Israel prophet who is not from their people ?

THE TRUTH WHICH HAVE NO ARGUMENTS:

In fact that all what both of Jews and Christians said are wrong, and I am not going to prove that from out of the t e x t itself, the truth is that the t e x t have no mean except to prove the prophecy to Mohammed, because it has two conditions:

the prophet is from between their brothers.

that the prophet is LIKE Moses, where the new law and holy war against the enemy of religion, message and God.

And we can't see these two conditions except at Mohammed.. he is like Moses and he is the man of the holy war.. both of these conditions don't relate to "Joshua" nor "Samuel" as Jews says, nor Jesus as Christians think.. (if it is related to Jesus that means YOU Christians are contradicting your holy book !!!,I will explain, open your books on Deuteronomy (DT:34:10) " And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face " and in Arabic copy it says " there will never be a prophet from among Israel who like Moses, whom the lord TALKED to face to face " read it carefully… it says there will never be a prophet from ISRAEL LIKE MOSES, so how do you Christians say that (DT:18:18) is related to Jesus when you know that Jesus is from Israel's progeny, beside that he is not like Moses (as "DT:34:10" says), So the prophecy at (DT:18:18) doesn't related to Jesus, that means the expected prophet must be from Arabians, from among Israel's brothers as the prophecy says.. so which of them is right ? (DT:34:10) or (DT:18:18) ?? if (DT:18:18) is for Jesus so (DT:34:10) lied then ??!!! well…no lies, but it is more simple.. the expected prophet is not from Israel as (DT:34:10) says, but he is from among their brothers as (DT:18:18) says, and who are Israel's brothers??.. they are Arabians sure ..! I think it is very clear now.. I meant to bring each word from YOUR book not from anywhere else .

The prophecy doesn't relate to "Joshua" nor "Samuel" as Jews think because of the first condition in the prophecy which says that the prophet is from among their brothers, and "Joshua" and "Samuel" are from among Israel itself not from among their brothers, and the same thing is working with Jesus, so if the prophecy meant anybody of them it would be " I will raise them up a prophet from BETWEEN or AMONG THEMSELVES ".

And about the second condition it doesn't relate to "Joshua" nor "Samuel" also because it says LIKE Moses, and "Joshua" nor "Samuel" are not like Moses, and also the same thing is working with Jesus.. I am not going longer than that about that prophecy, because I still have a lot of prophecies to talk about, let's just explore now the meeting between Dr. Ahmed Deedat and the priest " Fan Herden " with more explaining about this prophecy:

The meeting had this title: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT MOHAMMED?

By Ahmed Deedat,


I have made a lot of calls to African churches and explained my aims to priests who I cared to make dialogue between me and them, but they refused using reasons are similar to be accepted, but the 13th call put the happiness inside me when the priest Fan Herden has accepted to meet me at his home at Saturday afternoon, he received me at his house's balcony welcoming me in a lovely way, then he asked me if I don't mind if his father-in-law who is 70 years attend this meeting and to join us, I didn't refuse and we all sat at the balcony .


WHY NOTHING?

I created a question : What does your holy book say about the prophet Mohammed ?

And without hesitation or thinking he said nothing, I said why nothing? in accordance with your book it has a lot of predictions.

He said yes, but nothing about Mohammed.

And then I asked again : why nothing?

Then the old man said : O son, I have red the holy book for 50 years, so if there was anything about Mohammed I would knew it .

NO WORD?

Don't you say that there are hundreds of predictions which are talking about Jesus in The Old Testament ?

The priest said : not hundreds, but thousands.

Then I said : I am not going to argue with you about those thousands of predications about Jesus, because we are as Muslims believe in him as a prophet believing in that Mohammed (PBUH) when he told us about him, so we don't need written predications about that, but can you tell me where the holy book told a prefect prophecy to " Jesus " literally? make an exception of surnames .

Priest said : no, the holy book hasn't all of those details.

I said : so how do you expect that all of those thousands of predications are about Jesus?


The priest didn't answer that.

WHAT IS THE PROPHECY?The priest said : you know that the prophecy is the expecting words for anything may happen in the future, so when that already happen we know that it was the prophecy which we have been told about it before.

I said : in fact you are concluding , you put two by two together, he said : YES.

I said : if that what you are doing to prove the prophecy for Jesus, why don't you use the same method for Mohammed??


The priest agreed with that just speech to deal with the problem, then I asked him to open the holy book on (Deuter..DT:18:18) " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (you), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. "

PROPHET LIKE MOSES…

After he red the t e x t I asked him: for whom this t e x t ?

He answered : Jesus.

I asked : why Jesus?? His name is not here.

He answered : as long as the prophecy is the expecting words for anything may happen in the future, so the t e x t belong to Jesus.

I said : you see that the most important word in the t e x t is the word " LIKE UNTO THEE ", in the Arabic copy " LIKE YOU ", he means like Moses, so does Jesus like Moses?, how he was like Moses, like what ??

He said : Moses was Jewish and so Jesus was, Moses was prophet and so Jesus was .

I asked : can you find more resemblances between Moses and Jesus ??

He said : I don't remember anything else about that.

I said : if that was the criterion to discover to whom that t e x t, so it might be for any other prophet like Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John…ect. All of them were Jews as they were prophets also, so why can't the t e x t be for them ??


He didn't answer that also.


I continued : you know my conclusions, and they are all about that Jesus isn't like Moses, so if I was mistaken I hope you correct for me.

UNLIKE THINGS

I said: Jesus isn't like Moses , according to your believes, you believe that Jesus is God, but Moses wasn't God, is that right ?


He said : yes.


I said : so, Jesus not like Moses.

Once more time, I said : according to your believes, that Jesus died for world sins, but Moses didn't, right ?


He said : yes .


Third: according to your believes, Jesus gone to hell for 3 days, but Moses didn't, right ?


He said : yes.


I concluded : so Jesus not like Moses, but sir, all of that was clear things in their life, let's talk about the subtle things in their life.


1. father and mother:

Moses had parents, " And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years " (Exodus:6:20)., and so Mohammed had parents, but Jesus had only a mother, he had no human father, isn't that what your book say?


He said : yes.




2. miraculous birth:

both of Moses and Mohammed passed through natural birth, for example it was a product of a relation between man and woman, but about Jesus he had a special miraculous birth,


he said : yes .


3. contraction of marriage:

Both Mohammed and Moses got married and had kids, but Jesus stayed as single all of his life. Right?


He said : yes .


4.Kingdom cares about the otherworldly:

Both Mohammed and Moses were prophets as they were leaders ( I mean by prophecy), the human who inspired with a divine message to guide people, And about the leader.. I mean the human who have the sovereignty and leadership upon his people whether king or no, so if the human had the ability to impose a penalty on someone or people like execution and judging between people, so he is leader, and Moses had the sovereignty, when he ordered to execute the cow worshipers (EX:32:26-27) " Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. " ( I don't know what is the wise of writing the HOLY BOOK with wrong words… anyway let's continue) , and so Mohammed had the same sovereignty to judge between people, but Jesus was the other kind of prophets, so from here Jesus not like Moses, but Mohammed like Moses.


5. No New Law:

Both of Mohammed and Moses came to their people with new law, Moses came with the ten commandments and new rite to help his people, and Mohammed was sent to his people who were known by burying alive ( a newborn girl ), alcoholics, idolaters, loving gambling in that desert… so Mohammed was as "Tomas Careel " said : he honored the people who followed him, he made them carrier of light and knowledge torches.

And about Jesus he was always trying to prove to Jews that " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. " (Matthew=MT:5:17)., otherwise he didn't came with new law or rite, but he came to complete after Moses, so you find ( The Old Testament & The New Testament)

Abbreviation Jesus didn't build new religion or rite, as Moses and Mohammed did.

The priest said : yes.


6. How was their leaving:

Both Mohammed and Moses had died natural death, but as (Christians thoughts) Jesus died killed on the cross. Right ?

He said : yes.

I said : so Jesus not like Moses, but Mohammed like Moses.


7. The celestial locality:

Both Mohammed and Moses are reposing now in their graves underground, but as you believe that Jesus is sitting now : " Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. " (LUK:22:69), not underground like Moses or Mohammed.

The priest said : yes.

Then I said : so Jesus not like Moses, but Mohammed like Moses.


Then after this logic dialogue with proofs, and after the agreement by the priest with submission for all what I said, I said : O priest all was around one word in the t e x t just for proving, the word " LIKE YOU " which means like Moses, but the prophecy more wide than that word, the prophecy says : " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. " (DT:18:18)


We have to focus on the sentence " like you ,from among their brethren " in Arabic copy " like you, from among their brothers " the speech is forwarded to Moses, and to his people ( Jews ) when the prophecy says " their brothers " it means Aribians certainty… let's just see how..


You know that he is talking about Abraham, and Abraham had two wives Hagar and Sarah, Hagar gave birth to Abraham, he was son, he is Abraham's firstborn as the holy book says " And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. " (GN:16:15).




And till the 13th of age, Ishmael stayed the only son to Abraham, God gave another son to Abraham from Sarah called Isaac " Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren " (MT:1:2).


ARAB AND JEWS:

If Ishmael and Isaac were two brothers for one father " Abraham " and this is what the holy book says, so they are brothers, and so people from their progeny are brothers also "figurative", Isaac's sons or people are Jews, and Ishmael's sons or people are Arabians, and that is also what the holy book says, assuring that " and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brothers. " (GN:16:12), also Torah says about Ishmael's death " And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. * And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren. " (GN:25:17-18).

So Ishmael's sons are brothers to Isaac's sons, so by the same mode, so Mohammed is a man from people who are brothers to Jews, that is because he is from Ishmael's progeny ( Arabians ) as the prophecy said exactly " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brothers " . the prophecy clearly point to a prophet who is like Moses, and who God will send, isn't from Israel people, because Torah didn't say " from among or between themselves " !!! but it said " from among their brothers ", so the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the messenger who is from their brothers.!!


And I shall put my speech into his mouth:

The prophecy continued saying " and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. " in Arabic copy it says " and I shall put my speech into his mouth, so he will talk to them with what I commanded him " what does the prophecy mean when it say " I shall put my speech into his mouth " ???


The prophetic biography is telling us that when the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) became 40 years old, he was worshipping in Hera' cave which locate in al-nour mountain where he got the inspiration, and which is far from Mecca about 3 miles, and in this cave Jebril (the angel who authorized to tell and teach the inspiration to Mohammed) came to Mohammed ordering him in Arabic tongue saying " READ ", then the prophet felt so afraid from what he saw then answered him : " I am not reader " then Jebril said again : " READ ", then Mohammed said again : " I am not reader ", and for the third time Jebril said " Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),*Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).or leech* Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,* Who has taught (the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch)].".

Then the prophet concluded what the angel wanted from him, the angel wanted to PUT these words in the prophet's mouth to reply them, and then Qura'n continued to be send for next 23 years of the prophecy life . isn't that literal certification to what came in the Bible ??? Mohammed was illiterate, he didn't know writing or reading.. Jebril just PUT the words which he got from God to be sent to Mohammed IN Mohammed's MOUTH .


Believing to Isaiah's prophecy:

The isolation of Mohammed at Hera' cave and the way of getting Qura'n by inspiration, and because of Mohammed was illiterate, so all of that are just believing to Isaiah's prophecy which says : " And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he says , I am not learned. " (IS:29:12)…(excuse me do you really read your Bible carefully ??? I am wondering … the proof is inside your book .. so what are you waiting for?? Anyway let's continue ).


And notice: some information for you : there was no Arabic copy of the holy book at the 6th century (after Christ). Means while Mohammed was alive beside he is illiterate.

Otherwise : Isaiah's book came or has been added to the holy book after Mohammed's death.. is it clear??


WARNING FROM ALLAH:

Have you seen how the prophecy applying to Mohammed as the applying of gloves on your hands?? "I asked the priest ".

He said : " all of your explaining are fine checkup to the holy book , BUT IT IS NOT IMPORTANT, because we are as Christians believes that Jesus is embodied God who redeem us.

I said : " not important??, God sent that prophecy and now you are saying it is not important ?, listen, God know that there are people who are like you ,priest, who are by tongue slip and their weak will and desire just making God speech falls down with no caring , you are just dropping God speech as it wasn't, so just continue the prophecy to learn and to see also what YOUR book says : " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. " and at the Catholic copy it says : " I will be the avenger ", God is threaten punishment for whom like you who are dropping God speech.


The prophet who the prophecy in ( DT:18:18 ) told about is Mohammed no doubt, I have showed you abundant of proofs that that prophecy is about Mohammed not about Jesus (PBUthem) If you watch the word " like you " carefully .


We Muslims don't deny Jesus as a messenger, but what we are saying is that what came in YOUR book at ( DT:18:18) is about Mohammed not about Jesus.


Then the priest moved away very good manners and then he said : it is a dangerous case and very important, and I have to ask THE SECT about it.

15 years gone since that time and I am still waiting what he promised me.


I think he was honest when he invited me to his home and accepted the dialogue, but fanaticism for grandfather's believes is killing severity.


There is another note : Torah said that there will never be a prophet in or from Israel like Moses, which means that the prophecy must be for the prophet from between Arab…!!! And here is the t e x t : " And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face " (DT:34:10). finished …..


That meeting was by Ahmed Deedat …. And I have underlined my comments,