Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

آخـــر الـــمـــشـــاركــــات


مـواقـع شـقــيـقـة
شبكة الفرقان الإسلامية شبكة سبيل الإسلام شبكة كلمة سواء الدعوية منتديات حراس العقيدة
البشارة الإسلامية منتديات طريق الإيمان منتدى التوحيد مكتبة المهتدون
موقع الشيخ احمد ديدات تليفزيون الحقيقة شبكة برسوميات شبكة المسيح كلمة الله
غرفة الحوار الإسلامي المسيحي مكافح الشبهات شبكة الحقيقة الإسلامية موقع بشارة المسيح
شبكة البهائية فى الميزان شبكة الأحمدية فى الميزان مركز براهين شبكة ضد الإلحاد

يرجى عدم تناول موضوعات سياسية حتى لا تتعرض العضوية للحظر

 

       

         

 

    

 

 

    

 

Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

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Thread: Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

  1. #1
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    Default Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

    Judaism, Christianity and Islam are considered Abrahamic faiths. All three cannot be right. Can't seem to get away from this trinity. I am really amazed that after our dialogue if Muslims they could dig in their heels. I am awe struck of the grip Islam has on Muslims and the concern it brings upon the world.

    I don't understand how Muslims could read the Bible and see that Ishmael was rejected as the child of promise by God and Abraham. Since Islam's prophet Muhammad comes from Ishmael's line and no prophets come out of Ishmael, I could not see Muhammad a prophet of God for Jews or Christians. Catholics have lots wrong and so does Judaism, but Jesus said look at the fruit. When I look at radical Muslims I find they are truly living the Quran. It commands militancy. Most Muslims are moderate in their faith, but radical Islam will soon force moderates off the fence.

    As I mentioned, Jesus said you'll know a tree by its fruit. I look at Iraq and the tree of Islam shows its true colors, IMO. I don't understand the color blindness of moderate Muslim, but I pray we all come to the knowledge of truth during the debates we have here.

    Peace

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Judaism, Christianity and Islam are considered Abrahamic faiths. All three cannot be right. Can't seem to get away from this trinity. I am really amazed that after our dialogue if Muslims they could dig in their heels. I am awe struck of the grip Islam has on Muslims and the concern it brings upon the world.

    I don't understand how Muslims could read the Bible and see that Ishmael was rejected as the child of promise by God and Abraham. Since Islam's prophet Muhammad comes from Ishmael's line and no prophets come out of Ishmael, I could not see Muhammad a prophet of God for Jews or Christians. Catholics have lots wrong and so does Judaism, but Jesus said look at the fruit. When I look at radical Muslims I find they are truly living the Quran. It commands militancy. Most Muslims are moderate in their faith, but radical Islam will soon force moderates off the fence.

    As I mentioned, Jesus said you'll know a tree by its fruit. I look at Iraq and the tree of Islam shows its true colors, IMO. I don't understand the color blindness of moderate Muslim, but I pray we all come to the knowledge of truth during the debates we have here.

    Peace

    I came here expecting a certain topic . All I see are accusations and generalities containing many topics

    What exactly are you asking about :
    1. Ishmael in the bible
    2. The quran and what is going on today in Iraq
    3. What jesus said to follow

    BTW if you want violent passages I can quote thousands of passages in the bible within their contexts and their interpritations


    I could also bring you the bloody history of your religion starting from the roman empire to the crusades
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  3. #3
    *اسلامي عزي*'s Avatar
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    In the name of Allah

    Quote
    no prophets come out of Ishmael

    are you sure ???
    there is no relation between Ishmael and our prophet Muhammad puh ???
    read this please !

    Dictionary of the Bible
    Philip Schaff




    http://bluehost.levendwater.org/book...ible/index.htm




    The Union Bible Dictionary
    Frederick Adolphus Packard
    page: 388





    http://books.google.it/books?id=VTMX...0kedar&f=false


    Basic Bible Dictionary
    Michael Counsell
    page : 63





    http://books.google.it/books?id=Eczg...0kedar&f=false


    The Popular Bible Prophecy Commentary
    Understanding the Meaning
    Tim F. LaHaye, Tim LaHaye, Edward E. Hindson

    page : 166



    http://books.google.fr/books?id=1A1A...ARABIA&f=false


    Islam And Its Founder
    J. W. H. Stobart
    page :27










    page 36







    Quote
    I look at Iraq and the tree of Islam shows its true colors
    there is no relation between what is happening now in Iraq and the peaceful religion of Islam.
    may be you think that our God is a babys and animals killer !
    who live in glass houses .......you know the rest colleague .
    peace.







    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    أنقر(ي) فضلا أدناه :


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    اللهمّ اهدنا و اهد بنا ،

    اللهمّ لا سهل إلا ما جعلته سهلاً، وأنت تجعل الحزن إذا شئت يارب سهلاً، اللهمّ سهّل علينا أمورنا واجعل أعمالنا خالصة لوجهك الكريم نلقاك بها يارب يوم
    الدين.

    آمين... آمين... آمين.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



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    OK I will choose to speak about Ishmael and prophet hood from his linage :

    This topic was already discussed between me and pandora and I proved how sons of ishmael were actually promissed to have a prophet :

    in the OT:

    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    Deuteronomy 18 :18

    Bretheren here can refer to the ishmailites which are the cousins of the israelites , not the israelites . Bretheren from the context of the bible was used for non israelites :

    And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us

    Numbers 20 : 14

    The blessing of ishmael :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

    A great nation as defined by the bible:
    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to anation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    As for the prophecy regarding the burdon upon Arabia :

    13The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.14The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.15For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. 16For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail. 17And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it.


    Isaiah 21


    This clearly describes a revelation in Arabia and the hijra of the prophet describing a war between the children of Kedar and then describes the inhabitants of Tema تيماء which is an area which contains Madina, Fadak , Khaibar, Alola . Kedar is one of the sons of Ishmael.

    Also in the begining of Isaiah :
    "And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .."
    (Isaiah 21:7)

    The chariot of asses refers to :
    "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,"
    (John 12:14)


    This is clearly described in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

    ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,
    but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man, for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom). He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him: "Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass, shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

    Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310])

    This was known for the jews because when they asked Jesus they mentioned three figures :

    John, chapter 1:”
    19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "
    Who are you?"
    20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "
    I am not the Messiah
    ."
    21 So they asked him, "
    What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not
    ." "
    Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No."

    So the prophet , Elijah and the Messiah three distinct figures which they were awaiting one the prophet was from Ishmael

    Note: I am focussing on the idea of prophethood from Ishmael's legacy








    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by *اسلامي عزي* View Post
    In the name of Allah


    are you sure ???
    there is no relation between Ishmael and our prophet Muhammad puh ???
    read this please !

    Dictionary of the Bible
    Philip Schaff




    http://bluehost.levendwater.org/book...ible/index.htm




    The Union Bible Dictionary
    Frederick Adolphus Packard
    page: 388





    http://books.google.it/books?id=VTMX...0kedar&f=false


    Basic Bible Dictionary
    Michael Counsell
    page : 63





    http://books.google.it/books?id=Eczg...0kedar&f=false


    The Popular Bible Prophecy Commentary
    Understanding the Meaning
    Tim F. LaHaye, Tim LaHaye, Edward E. Hindson

    page : 166



    http://books.google.fr/books?id=1A1A...ARABIA&f=false


    Islam And Its Founder
    J. W. H. Stobart
    page :27










    page 36









    there is no relation between what is happening now in Iraq and the peaceful religion of Islam.
    may be you think that our God is a babys and animals killer !
    who live in glass houses .......you know the rest colleague .
    peace.




    You are reading into what I say again. I didn't say your messenger Muhammad wasn't a descendant of Ishmael; I said no prophets come out of him because Ishmael was no prophet. Therefore no prophetic line comes out of Ishmael. I am convinced that he is in the line of Kedar as you support and mention, but Ishmael according to the Scripture that came before was rejected by God and Abraham as the child of promise; so, the whole world is caught up in the middle of a family feud between the seed of Isaac and Ishmael. That is what Iraq is all about. Both Jew and Arab battle that the promise is with them, but we Christians support Israel, because God chose them as His people and not Ishmael. God did bless him, but that is as far as it goes.

    peace

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    OK I will choose to speak about Ishmael and prophet hood from his linage :

    This topic was already discussed between me and pandora and I proved how sons of ishmael were actually promissed to have a prophet :

    in the OT:

    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    Deuteronomy 18 :18

    Bretheren here can refer to the ishmailites which are the cousins of the israelites , not the israelites . Bretheren from the context of the bible was used for non israelites :

    And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us

    Numbers 20 : 14

    The blessing of ishmael :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

    A great nation as defined by the bible:
    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to anation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    As for the prophecy regarding the burdon upon Arabia :

    13The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.14The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.15For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. 16For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail. 17And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it.


    Isaiah 21


    This clearly describes a revelation in Arabia and the hijra of the prophet describing a war between the children of Kedar and then describes the inhabitants of Tema تيماء which is an area which contains Madina, Fadak , Khaibar, Alola . Kedar is one of the sons of Ishmael.

    Also in the begining of Isaiah :
    "And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .."
    (Isaiah 21:7)

    The chariot of asses refers to :
    "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,"
    (John 12:14)


    This is clearly described in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

    ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,
    but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man, for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom). He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him: "Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass, shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

    Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310])

    This was known for the jews because when they asked Jesus they mentioned three figures :

    John, chapter 1:”
    19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "
    Who are you?"
    20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "
    I am not the Messiah
    ."
    21 So they asked him, "
    What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not
    ." "
    Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No."

    So the prophet , Elijah and the Messiah three distinct figures which they were awaiting one the prophet was from Ishmael

    Note: I am focussing on the idea of prophethood from Ishmael's legacy








    It is interesting how you put that together, but Christians and Jews alike don't honor some of the sources you mentioned. We honor Deut. 18, but that verse was speaking about Jesus as mentioned in the gospel before you prophet was born. The phrase "from out of your brethren" was used in the Bible to mention Israelites as well. Deut. is not going to work for you, and the other sources aren't recognized, because of what Gen. 21:12 states regarding Ishmael
    peace

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    It is interesting how you put that together, but Christians and Jews alike don't honor some of the sources you mentioned. We honor Deut. 18, but that verse was speaking about Jesus as mentioned in the gospel before you prophet was born. The phrase "from out of your brethren" was used in the Bible to mention Israelites as well. Deut. is not going to work for you, and the other sources aren't recognized, because of what Gen. 21:12 states regarding Ishmael
    peace
    All of the resources I have taken are from the bible !!!! and the jewish source is accepted by jews and an acclimation to what we say!!!

    As for like me : the prophet was like Moses in many different aspects , second was addressing the jews but according to the KJV bible :

    I will raise them up a Prophet from
    among their brethren
    , like unto thee

    Their refers to the israelites

    So Bretheren cannot refer to the israelites themselves , God simply could have chose to say from them not their bretheren . The context simply does not help your claim

    Where is the answer to the other passages !!!!!???

    Our discussion as I have noted was about prophethood from Ishmael

    Why did you not address the rest of the passages ?????

    Where is your answer according to what I said concerning Ishmael , the prophecy of Arabia, The jewish questioning of Jesus and what Jesus said in Matthew 21:43 and what Rabbi Shimon said ????


    Did you choose to ignore or do you not have an answer !!!!

    Reminder :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 602631;محمد سني 1989


    OK I will choose to speak about Ishmael and prophet hood from his linage :

    This topic was already discussed between me and pandora and I proved how sons of ishmael were actually promissed to have a prophet :

    in the OT:

    I will raise them up a Prophet from
    among their brethren
    , like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


    Deuteronomy 18 :18

    Bretheren here can refer to the ishmailites which are the cousins of the israelites , not the israelites . Bretheren from the context of the bible was used for non israelites :

    And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us


    Numbers 20 : 14

    The blessing of ishmael :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”


    A great nation as defined by the bible:

    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to anationbringing forth the fruits thereof.


    As for the prophecy regarding the burdon upon Arabia :

    13The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.14The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.15For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. 16For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail. 17And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it.


    Isaiah 21


    This clearly describes a revelation in Arabia and the hijra of the prophet describing a war between the children of Kedar and then describes the inhabitants of Tema تيماء which is an area which contains Madina, Fadak , Khaibar, Alola . Kedar is one of the sons of Ishmael. And the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him is his decendent

    Also in the begining of Isaiah :
    "And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .."
    (Isaiah 21:7)


    The chariot of asses refers to :
    "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,"
    (John 12:14)



    This is clearly described in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

    ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,
    but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man, for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom). He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him: "Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass, shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

    Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310])

    This was known for the jews because when they asked Jesus they mentioned three figures :

    John, chapter 1:”
    19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "
    Who are you?"
    20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "
    I am not the Messiah."
    21 So they asked him, "
    What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "
    Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No."

    So the prophet , Elijah and the Messiah three distinct figures which they were awaiting one the prophet was from Ishmael

    Note: I am focussing on the idea of prophethood from Ishmael's legacy

    Last edited by محمد سني 1989; 20-08-2014 at 07:08 AM.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    All of the resources I have taken are from the bible !!!! and the jewish source is accepted by jews and an acclimation to what we say!!!:
    If the Jews accept the source, why aren't they embracing Islam. The Biblical sources are not saying that Ishmael was a prophet to me. You are very subjectively looking at this Scriptures. If it were as clear as you say, all Christians would be Muslims along with the Jews

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post

    As for like me : the prophet was like Moses in many different aspects , second was addressing the jews but according to the KJV bible :

    I will raise them up a Prophet from
    among their brethren
    , like unto thee

    Their refers to the israelites

    So Bretheren cannot refer to the israelites themselves , God simply could have chose to say from them not their bretheren . The context simply does not help your claim

    Where is the answer to the other passages !!!!!???

    Our discussion as I have noted was about prophethood from Ishmael

    Why did you not address the rest of the passages ?????

    Where is your answer according to what I said concerning Ishmael , the prophecy of Arabia, The jewish questioning of Jesus and what Jesus said in Matthew 21:43 and what Rabbi Shimon said ????

    Did you choose to ignore or do you not have an answer !!!! :
    The verse reads: Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” You are thinking this refers to Islam and your prophet. No, The Jews rejected their Messiah so God opened the door for all peoples, races, cultures, languages and tongues the gentiles included. It is not speaking of Arabs only. We don't honor what Rabbi Shimon said even if the Jews do, but it is funny the Jews don't act like they honor it.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post

    Reminder :
    As I mentioned, Brethren can refer to the Israelites themselves, because God used the same phrase later on to be referring to someone from their own brethren of the Israelites. God could have said from them and not their brethren but that is not the way the written put it in the Bible. The context I mentionrd does work from a biblical stand point. As for your prophet being more like Moses, I beg to differ especially when it comes to miracles and signs from God such as both were saved from infanticide, both were Saviors, both were made deities except Jesus was really divine and Moses was told he would be like God to Aaron and Aaron would be his prophet; the sea obeyed them both, both were called out of Egypt; both heard from God directly, Moses turned water red and Jesus turned water to wine (red) and many, many other similarities that no other prophet could touch. I look at all the Scripture you shared and even after you explain them I don't see a connection, and for sure any objective viewer wouldn't come to the conclusions you have arrived to. You also say it is clearly referring to your prophet and Ishmael being a prophet and the child of promise just because God blessed him and made him strong with him against every man and every man against him like we see happening in the world today, but I don't see how this constitutes prophet hood for Ishmael or any of his descendants. You will have a tough job convincing Jew and Christians of this.

    peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    If the Jews accept the source, why aren't they embracing Islam. The Biblical sources are not saying that Ishmael was a prophet to me. You are very subjectively looking at this Scriptures. If it were as clear as you say, all Christians would be Muslims along with the Jews

    The verse reads: Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” You are thinking this refers to Islam and your prophet. No, The Jews rejected their Messiah so God opened the door for all peoples, races, cultures, languages and tongues the gentiles included. It is not speaking of Arabs only. We don't honor what Rabbi Shimon said even if the Jews do, but it is funny the Jews don't act like they honor it.

    As I mentioned, Brethren can refer to the Israelites themselves, because God used the same phrase later on to be referring to someone from their own brethren of the Israelites. God could have said from them and not their brethren but that is not the way the written put it in the Bible. The context I mentionrd does work from a biblical stand point. As for your prophet being more like Moses, I beg to differ especially when it comes to miracles and signs from God such as both were saved from infanticide, both were Saviors, both were made deities except Jesus was really divine and Moses was told he would be like God to Aaron and Aaron would be his prophet; the sea obeyed them both, both were called out of Egypt; both heard from God directly, Moses turned water red and Jesus turned water to wine (red) and many, many other similarities that no other prophet could touch. I look at all the Scripture you shared and even after you explain them I don't see a connection, and for sure any objective viewer wouldn't come to the conclusions you have arrived to. You also say it is clearly referring to your prophet and Ishmael being a prophet and the child of promise just because God blessed him and made him strong with him against every man and every man against him like we see happening in the world today, but I don't see how this constitutes prophet hood for Ishmael or any of his descendants. You will have a tough job convincing Jew and Christians of this.

    peace
    First : Your argument that ishmael was not a prophet is that if he was the jews and christians would accept it !!!!!
    This argument is twisted since the jews can also use it concerning Jesus. My friend this argument will not help you at all.
    So this does not explain the blessinggs in Genesis :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”


    A great nation as defined by the bible:

    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    Second :

    Matthew 21: 43 Cannot be talking about the gentiles because Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel :

    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matthew 15: 24


    The passage here is clear Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel so the context of Matthew 21: 43 cannot be talking about the gentiles


    Third : what you said here :

    As I mentioned, Brethren can refer to the Israelites themselves, because God used the same phrase later on to be referring to someone from their own brethren of the Israelites. God could have said from them and not their brethren but that is not the way the written put it in the Bible

    How could god say them bretheren !!!! it would not make anysense rather he said their (the israelites ) bretheren , and you are right this is what the biblical writers wrote so asking why did they not put them should be addressed to them. The context is clear god talks to the israelites that from their brothers reffering to the brothers of all israelites since the text used their so it cannot mean the israelites

    The simmilarities between prophet Muhammed and Moses:

    1. Both came with laws
    2. Both of normal birthnot virgin
    3. Both led migrations and physical salvations
    4.Both ruled their nations
    5. Both engaged in military actions
    6. Both were raised away from their parents
    7.Both married and had children
    8.Both immigrated in adulthood
    9.Both had a a spiritual and legal teachings instead of spiritual only
    10. Both had normal deaths while Jesus according to Christian was killied
    11. Both of their revelations were written down during their lifetimes

    As for your claim of turning water to wine , well that is debatable but wine is not blood , Moses split the sea but Jesus did not , if you are going to claim that they both had miracles concerning water in general well I could also put this :

    Anas b. Malik reported:

    I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.



    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657



    Anas reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.

    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

    I do not think generalities here will help you , we are looking at specific simmilarities of their lives. Generalities in such a way do not just show simmilarities between the three figures : Moses, Jesus and Mohammed peace be upon them rather with all other people. It is like comparing Noa to Moses because they both had something supernatural with water!!!!! You need specifics

    Where in the new testement did Jesus speak to god directly like the way Moses did in Mount Sania . This was not shown in the NT

    All what christians are doing is taking certain passages in the NT and apply it as direct contact with god , like the passages when a certain voice was heard from the cloud!!!! these passages show no dialougue or contact as god did with Moses because all the deciples heard it , there was no dialogue or a confrontation with god as Moses did with the burning bush !!! (review Matthew 17)

    However this itself should not be considered a simmilarity since a jew can argue that Adam has direct contact with God in the garden, or Jacob wresseled with god (according to christian belief) and talked to him , Ezikiel with the chariot of God (according to jewish and christian belief)!!!

    However it is important to note that not all revelations revealed to the prophet was by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him rather revelations sometimes were revealed to the prophet directly from god :

    Narrated 'Aisha:

    (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet (ﷺ) being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

    Saheeh Al Bukhari vol 1, Book 1 , hadeeth 2



    Another similarity ( from a christian view)
    12.Both were human and not divine (according to christians jesus was divine)

    There is a lot but I think this would be enough

    As for the prophethood of a decendent of ishmael I already answered above


    The blessing of ishmael :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

    A great nation as defined by the bible:
    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is the second time you ignore this part
    You also ignored the part about Isaiah
    You also ignored what has written in John 1: 19-21

    Note: Also for the second time I am not talking about the prophet hood of ishmael rather the prophet from his decendent , mainly : can Ishmael's decendents have a prophet ???
    Last edited by محمد سني 1989; 20-08-2014 at 12:59 PM.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First : Your argument that ishmael was not a prophet is that if he was the jews and christians would accept it !!!!!
    This argument is twisted since the jews can also use it concerning Jesus. My friend this argument will not help you at all.
    So this does not explain the blessinggs in Genesis :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”


    A great nation as defined by the bible:

    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    Second :

    Matthew 21: 43 Cannot be talking about the gentiles because Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel :

    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matthew 15: 24


    The passage here is clear Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel so the context of Matthew 21: 43 cannot be talking about the gentiles


    Third : what you said here :

    As I mentioned, Brethren can refer to the Israelites themselves, because God used the same phrase later on to be referring to someone from their own brethren of the Israelites. God could have said from them and not their brethren but that is not the way the written put it in the Bible

    How could god say them bretheren !!!! it would not make anysense rather he said their (the israelites ) bretheren , and you are right this is what the biblical writers wrote so asking why did they not put them should be addressed to them. The context is clear god talks to the israelites that from their brothers reffering to the brothers of all israelites since the text used their so it cannot mean the israelites

    The simmilarities between prophet Muhammed and Moses:

    1. Both came with laws
    2. Both of normal birthnot virgin
    3. Both led migrations and physical salvations
    4.Both ruled their nations
    5. Both engaged in military actions
    6. Both were raised away from their parents
    7.Both married and had children
    8.Both immigrated in adulthood
    9.Both had a a spiritual and legal teachings instead of spiritual only
    10. Both had normal deaths while Jesus according to Christian was killied
    11. Both of their revelations were written down during their lifetimes

    As for your claim of turning water to wine , well that is debatable but wine is not blood , Moses split the sea but Jesus did not , if you are going to claim that they both had miracles concerning water in general well I could also put this :

    Anas b. Malik reported:

    I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.



    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657



    Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.

    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

    I do not think generalities here will help you , we are looking at specific simmilarities of their lives. Generalities in such a way do not just show simmilarities between the three figures : Moses, Jesus and Mohammed peace be upon them rather with all other people. It is like comparing Noa to Moses because they both had something supernatural with water!!!!! You need specifics

    Where in the new testement did Jesus speak to god directly like the way Moses did in Mount Sania . This was not shown in the NT

    All what christians are doing is taking certain passages in the NT and apply it as direct contact with god , like the passages when a certain voice was heard from the cloud!!!! these passages show no dialougue or contact as god did with Moses because all the deciples heard it , there was no dialogue or a confrontation with god as Moses did with the burning bush !!! (review Matthew 17)

    However this itself should not be considered a simmilarity since a jew can argue that Adam has direct contact with God in the garden, or Jacob wresseled with god (according to christian belief) and talked to him , Ezikiel with the chariot of God (according to jewish and christian belief)!!!

    However it is important to note that not all revelations revealed to the prophet was by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him rather revelations sometimes were revealed to the prophet directly from god :

    Narrated 'Aisha:

    (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Messenger () "O Allah's Messenger ()! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Messenger () replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet () being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

    Saheeh Al Bukhari vol 1, Book 1 , hadeeth 2



    Another similarity ( from a christian view)
    12.Both were human and not divine (according to christians jesus was divine)

    There is a lot but I think this would be enough

    As for the prophethood of a decendent of ishmael I already answered above


    The blessing of ishmael :

    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

    A great nation as defined by the bible:
    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
    you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
    , who will hear of all these statutes and say,
    'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is the second time you ignore this part
    You also ignored the part about Isaiah
    You also ignored what has written in John 1: 19-21

    Note: Also for the second time I am not talking about the prophet hood of ishmael rather the prophet from his decendent , mainly : can Ishmael's decendents have a prophet ???
    You said, "I didn't address John 1: 19-21" but look at the rest of the verse in context:
    19 And this is the (AO)testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you (AS)the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am (AT)the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[g] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

    24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, (AU)“Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, (AV)“I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

    Behold, the Lamb of God

    29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.” Not all Jews deny Jesus was a prophet and he did come for the house of Israel but they rejected him and Jesus gave parables that demonstrate that God has opened the door for all to receive Him as the gift of God.
    BTW, can I ask how long have you been Muslim? Were you born into it? I have never confronted a Muslim as tenacious as you. I do respect your zeal. What about Isaiah? I didn't see the verse you speak of

    Peace

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