Thread: Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

Quote

Originally Posted by Burninglight

I'm sorry, I couldn't explain what?


My apologies again.
Peace

The passage in the Quote

Quote

Originally Posted by pandora

you seem to take the fact that as you have expressed your opinion on a matter it is therefore answered satisfactorily. You don't stop to think that we may find your answer lacking in proof. It would be nice if you answered a question asked of you on occasion...or is that optional for Muslim members but for non muslims it's a requirement.



why does that not surprise me.... I am constantly disappointed with your "answers" but harping on about it gets us nowhere..does it?



There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at: http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

Also see.... The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt !


The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on Mount Zion and Temple Worship will be reestablished before the return of Jesus Christ.
A few facts about the Jewish Temple and the Temple Mount:


· The Temple Mount site exists in Jerusalem.


· Today, in 2007, here is no Jewish Temple.


· A Jewish Temple has not existed since 70 AD.


· Today, the Temple Mount is partially occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque.


· Negotiations regarding the Temple Mount were begun in September 20001


The Temple Mount


What does Scripture say about the Jewish Temple being rebuilt before the coming Day of the Lord?
Let's start with the prophet Daniel.


He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:27).


In this key prophecy, God says that in the middle of this last seven years an event called the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ will be set up on the wing of the temple. This prophecy is in reference to a future seven-year period called Daniel's 70th 'seven'. Therefore, by the middle of this last seven-years a Jewish Temple will exist on the Temple Mount.


Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul confirmed this when referring to the event known as ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ in their prophecies about the Second Coming.


Jesus commands that we understand this.


So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand (Matthew 24:15)


When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand (Mark 13:14)


In these two verses above, Jesus refers to the ‘abomination that causes desolation' which the prophet Daniel said would take place in relation to the temple. Below, Paul describes the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ when he says the Antichrist will go into the Jewish Temple and proclaim himself to be God.


Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).


In summary, the main events of the last seven-years start with the Antichrist confirming a covenant with many. After 3 ½ years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and offering in the temple declaring that he is God. This proclamation by the Antichrist will likely create a huge rebellion among the Jews and the rest of the world. Some will accept him but many will not. Those that do not worship the Antichrist will be persecuted and slaughtered. The Bible refers to time as the Great Tribulation. Lets read how Isaiah described temple worship which will lead up to the 'abomination that causes desolation' and the time of Great Tribulation.


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, 'Let Yahweh be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of Yahweh repaying his enemies all they deserve (Isaiah 66:3-6).


Israel will be at peace under the covenant which will be confirmed by the Antichrist. The Jews will be practicing temple worship again after almost 2,000 years. However, God is not pleased with temple worship at this time, most likely because Christ has already come and fulfilled the need for temple worship.


Next, the Antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrifice and offering and set himself up declaring that he is God. This abomination by the Antichrist will cause a riot in the temple and an uproar in the city, leading to its desolation. This event will initiate a time of unprecedented persecution and slaughter - the Great Tribulation.


Accepting Scripture at face value and interpreting prophecy as it has always been fulfilled, means that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before Christ returns.


Richard Perry


February 19, 2007. http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/will...be_rebuilt.htm





We've already been over this... As you are disseminating the Bible here, then are we not to be using what the Bible actually says about the matter? There is NO contradiction, as previously stated the Bible does not disagree with the fact that Isaac was not the only son, and Ishmael was indeed the first born. However... It is also clear that Isaac was the child of promise and referred to as the ONLY SON.. As he was the only son of Abraham and his wife Sarah.... And it was the child of THIS union that was preordained by God as the child of the covenant promise. You've already seen the relevant verses attesting to this fact. The Bible also clearly states that Ishmael was blessed by God... Blessed is not the same as being chosen to carry on the covenant.

As for your claims I highlighted...why would the Jews wish to switch the name of Ishmael for Isaac? The Quran does not say the names were switched... In fact, it does not mention by name at all, thus leaving you and others to fill in the "blanks" and rewriting things that do not suit your purpose.... And probably.. !! Well, that simply supposition on your part with no proof to back it up.



As I said the issue of the Temple was mentioned in other books apart from Chronicles.. And I don't know enough about Kabbalist's to comment on your source... Other than Rabbi Simon Ben Yohai I believe was of that persuasion.

I will mention ... I believe you are in error taking Isaiah 21:7 as in any way prophetic. The context of the passage is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 21:9 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon.” This passage actually has nothing to do with either Mohammed or Jesus... The references to horsemen, donkeys, and camels, just refer to the means by which the news of Babylon’s fall was spread. You can read whatever you like into the text, but sometimes it's simpler to read the words in the context they were placed with an open mind and things could just fall into place and make sense. Or you can just do what you do.... Which is you are at liberty to do. It doesn't change anything.

May I ask a question of you please? Why are you so determined to try and prove Christianity is false?

Peace unto you

Very good replies Pandora. I would like to add or qualify one thing you said for our Muslim brothers and that is about when Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51) (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God. The clarifier is that we only have this unimpeded access through Christ Jesus. I know you know this, but they might not.

Now since this thread is open topics on our faiths, and we are limited to only three posts, I would like to comment on the forgotten Holy Spirit thread. This thread is a typical example of Muslims accusing their Christian brothers of exactly what Islam or they're doing; for instance, the Holy Spirit is not forgotten by Christians; it was forgotten by Allah and his slave messenger. Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit as being God or the third person of the trinity to Christians; instead, he implies himself as the third person and Mary as the second. If the Bible has forgotten the Holy Spirit, the Quran trumps the Bible on that, LOL. He calls the Holy Spirit Gabriel. At least we know from our Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is God, and not and angel. As I mentioned, the tri unity of God cannot be explained, nor are we commanded by God to explain Him. For all I know, the Holy Spirit could be the relationship between the father and the son.
Jesus said, if you hate your brother, you are a murderer. Why? Is hating someone the say as murder? Yes, it is! When we hate we kill a relationship. The relationship is just as important as the people having the relationship. God's relationships are spiritual and holy. This is just a thought on my part; I could be wrong, but I believe I see in part as through a glass darkly, but when that which is perfect is come (Jesus), I will see clearly and know even as I am known!

Peace and blessing to all

Quote

Originally Posted by pandora

you seem to take the fact that as you have expressed your opinion on a matter it is therefore answered satisfactorily. You don't stop to think that we may find your answer lacking in proof. It would be nice if you answered a question asked of you on occasion...or is that optional for Muslim members but for non muslims it's a requirement.



why does that not surprise me.... I am constantly disappointed with your "answers" but harping on about it gets us nowhere..does it?



There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at: http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

Also see.... The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt !


The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on Mount Zion and Temple Worship will be reestablished before the return of Jesus Christ.
A few facts about the Jewish Temple and the Temple Mount:


· The Temple Mount site exists in Jerusalem.


· Today, in 2007, here is no Jewish Temple.


· A Jewish Temple has not existed since 70 AD.


· Today, the Temple Mount is partially occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque.


· Negotiations regarding the Temple Mount were begun in September 20001


The Temple Mount


What does Scripture say about the Jewish Temple being rebuilt before the coming Day of the Lord?
Let's start with the prophet Daniel.


He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:27).


In this key prophecy, God says that in the middle of this last seven years an event called the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ will be set up on the wing of the temple. This prophecy is in reference to a future seven-year period called Daniel's 70th 'seven'. Therefore, by the middle of this last seven-years a Jewish Temple will exist on the Temple Mount.


Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul confirmed this when referring to the event known as ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ in their prophecies about the Second Coming.


Jesus commands that we understand this.


So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand (Matthew 24:15)


When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand (Mark 13:14)


In these two verses above, Jesus refers to the ‘abomination that causes desolation' which the prophet Daniel said would take place in relation to the temple. Below, Paul describes the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ when he says the Antichrist will go into the Jewish Temple and proclaim himself to be God.


Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).


In summary, the main events of the last seven-years start with the Antichrist confirming a covenant with many. After 3 ½ years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and offering in the temple declaring that he is God. This proclamation by the Antichrist will likely create a huge rebellion among the Jews and the rest of the world. Some will accept him but many will not. Those that do not worship the Antichrist will be persecuted and slaughtered. The Bible refers to time as the Great Tribulation. Lets read how Isaiah described temple worship which will lead up to the 'abomination that causes desolation' and the time of Great Tribulation.


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, 'Let Yahweh be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of Yahweh repaying his enemies all they deserve (Isaiah 66:3-6).


Israel will be at peace under the covenant which will be confirmed by the Antichrist. The Jews will be practicing temple worship again after almost 2,000 years. However, God is not pleased with temple worship at this time, most likely because Christ has already come and fulfilled the need for temple worship.


Next, the Antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrifice and offering and set himself up declaring that he is God. This abomination by the Antichrist will cause a riot in the temple and an uproar in the city, leading to its desolation. This event will initiate a time of unprecedented persecution and slaughter - the Great Tribulation.


Accepting Scripture at face value and interpreting prophecy as it has always been fulfilled, means that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before Christ returns.


Richard Perry


February 19, 2007. http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/will...be_rebuilt.htm





We've already been over this... As you are disseminating the Bible here, then are we not to be using what the Bible actually says about the matter? There is NO contradiction, as previously stated the Bible does not disagree with the fact that Isaac was not the only son, and Ishmael was indeed the first born. However... It is also clear that Isaac was the child of promise and referred to as the ONLY SON.. As he was the only son of Abraham and his wife Sarah.... And it was the child of THIS union that was preordained by God as the child of the covenant promise. You've already seen the relevant verses attesting to this fact. The Bible also clearly states that Ishmael was blessed by God... Blessed is not the same as being chosen to carry on the covenant.

As for your claims I highlighted...why would the Jews wish to switch the name of Ishmael for Isaac? The Quran does not say the names were switched... In fact, it does not mention by name at all, thus leaving you and others to fill in the "blanks" and rewriting things that do not suit your purpose.... And probably.. !! Well, that simply supposition on your part with no proof to back it up.



As I said the issue of the Temple was mentioned in other books apart from Chronicles.. And I don't know enough about Kabbalist's to comment on your source... Other than Rabbi Simon Ben Yohai I believe was of that persuasion.

I will mention ... I believe you are in error taking Isaiah 21:7 as in any way prophetic. The context of the passage is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 21:9 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon.” This passage actually has nothing to do with either Mohammed or Jesus... The references to horsemen, donkeys, and camels, just refer to the means by which the news of Babylon’s fall was spread. You can read whatever you like into the text, but sometimes it's simpler to read the words in the context they were placed with an open mind and things could just fall into place and make sense. Or you can just do what you do.... Which is you are at liberty to do. It doesn't change anything.

May I ask a question of you please? Why are you so determined to try and prove Christianity is false?

Peace unto you

Actually the fact that you did not answer shows me and the readers that either you do not have an answer !!! that is the basic reality of the situation Pandora

Yet even though I answered all questions addressed to me I am now being accused of not answering in the same response where you yourself admitted to ignoring my responses . What an Irony ????!!!!

Quote

Originally Posted by ;Pandora

There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at:

http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

None and I repeat none of these passages actually states the name moriah

All these mentions a place without the name and christians and Jews just assumed were Moriah based on their understanding

So the land was still mentioned once in genesis without location with a contradiction

unfortunatlly the samaritans differ on the location , since they do not believe in the first and second books of chronicles so they claim that the actual mountain is the mountain Jerzeem not the current location of the Mosque.

As for your claim that blessed does not mean chosen , I have already addressed this and shown otherwise in the response which you said was unsatisfactory !!! (this shows me that you did not actually read my response )

AS for the only son again , the text said take your only son not your only chosen son !!!! the text is clear here .

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22: 2

This was before the test before god even revealed that his son was chosen so how could god say take your only chosen son !!!!! especially that Abraham thought at that time that he would be sacrificing his son !!! It does not make anysense : take your only chosen son to sacrifice as a sign of him being chosen !!!!

This interpritation is twisted in order to explain this clear contradiction

The quran never mentioned the name but the Hadeeth did , to negelect one and take the other is forbidden and unaccepted in the Quran itself

God said :

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Quran 59: 7

As for Isaiah 21 it concerns three prophecies:

1. The burdon of the desert of the sea
2. The burdon on Durah
3. The burdon on Arabia

These prophecies describe different events about the area , one is the fall of Babylon , second the coming of the messiah as shown by the riders of charriots of asses and the coming of the arabian prophet as the riders of Camels

What you mentioned about 21:7 is part of the burdon of the desert of the sea which describe the fall of babylon


To answer your final question :

This is an islamic - christian debate blogg , everybody presents and debates to prove a point. You and burninglight are debating to prove your point of christianity and we muslims are debating to prove our point , thats how debate bloggs work !!!! why do you think we are participating then !!!!


reminder

Quote

Originally Posted by ;محمد سني 1989

Quote

Originally Posted by ;محمد سني 1989

First god blessed Abraham and told him he would be a great nation :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.

And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing

. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

So Abraham's blessing and greatness comes from his decendents by blessing Abraham and blessing themselves (this is what muslims say five times a day during prayer : the prayer goes like this God bless Muhammed and his family as you have blessed Abraham and his family .....)

So a great nation blesses Abaraham , also they :

6 Observe them carefully, for thus will

you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations

, who will hear of all these statutes and say,

'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god and glorifies Abraham and blesses him which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis


Going to see how this applies to Ishmael from what you said :

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

Also :

Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20 RSV).

It is not me who is nitpicking from the bible , you need to read the passage carefully and compare it together

The same phrase used by god to Abraham is used to Ishmael .

Also

Quote

Originally Posted by ; اسلامي عزي

Concerning

the only son

Isaac or Ishmael i' invite you to read this :

Abraham: One God, Three Wives, Five Religions

Frances Worthington
page : 113

http://books.google.it/books?id=LVUw... becca&f=false

@

Pandora : are you the Burninglight's spokeswoman

????

about the Moriah ' s land the exact location is doubtful ---

unknown location

---

about "Temple Mount" ; sorry I do not believe in the existence of any temple in this blessed land ( Jerusalem )

Quote

Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989

The passage in the Quote

That is right; I know the answer. but it only works for me; you need to find out for yourself, and I told you how to do it. This has been addressed. Stop trying to bait me into areas that I have not been designated by God to explain to anyone. Can we agree to disagree? Probably not with you, because you cannot even agree on what we agree on; namely that God is one without partners or associates.

peace

Quote

Originally Posted by Burninglight

That is right; I know the answer. but it only works for me; you need to find out for yourself, and I told you how to do it. This has been addressed. Stop trying to bait me into areas that I have not been designated by God to explain to anyone. Can we agree to disagree? Probably not with you, because you cannot even agree on what we agree on; namely that God is one without partners or associates.

peace

I think you are confusing this thread with another!!!

Quote

Actually the fact that you did not answer shows me and the readers that either you do not have an answer !!! that is the basic reality of the situation Pandora

Yet even though I answered all questions addressed to me I am now being accused of not answering in the same response where you yourself admitted to ignoring my responses . What an Irony ????!!!!

Sorry, but I really think I have given you answers both here and other threads where you have demanded them of me... And my friend.. You have NOT answered all my questions. You have been very selective with your answers. To be honest, I'm not prepared to play these games of yours.. It's bad enough being restricted to only three threads at a time for reasons I do not understand. That you continue to waste time going over the same points.. Even having been given answers (which I have done to the best of my ability) you are still prevaricating!! I will leave it to readers to make up their minds... I find my face is increasingly not bothered.

Quote

None and I repeat none of these passages actually states the name moriah

All these mentions a place without the name and christians and Jews just assumed were Moriah based on their understanding

Based on their understanding, their understanding of the scriptures, which has to be based on something. Which I would take as an authority over your own...

Quote

So the land was still mentioned once in genesis without location with a contradiction

unfortunatlly the samaritans differ on the location , since they do not believe in the first and second books of chronicles so they claim that the actual mountain is the mountain Jerzeem not the current location of the Mosque.

just read Genesis in its entirety and see what conclusion it leads you to... Or Kings..or Ezra or any of the others mentioned in the article. As to what the Samaritans may have believed then that's all fine.. As a Christian I have faith in the Bible and the accounts within. As it's primarily the Bible is what you have issue with surely that should be of primary consideration.

Quote

As for your claim that blessed does not mean chosen , I have already addressed this and shown otherwise in the response which you said was unsatisfactory !!! (this shows me that you did not actually read my response )

AS for the only son again , the text said take your only son not your only chosen son !!!! the text is clear here .


And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


Genesis 22: 2


This was before the test before god even revealed that his son was chosen so how could god say take your only chosen son !!!!! especially that Abraham thought at that time that he would be sacrificing his son !!! It does not make anysense : take your only chosen son to sacrifice as a sign of him being chosen !!!!


This interpritation is twisted in order to explain this clear contradiction

Yes your response on this matter I found unsatisfactory. Your pondering on what God should or should not have said is immaterial.. We have to deal with what we have when God was giving Abraham the sign of the covenant, namely circumcision, Abraham asked God that the covenant would be placed on Ishmael.

Genesis 17:17-18 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

Abraham knows the difficulty that it will be for he and Sarah to have a child... Their age was against them. This is what brought about his impatience in the first place, leading him to sleep with Hagar, which gave him Ishmael. Remember that God had told Abraham that he would be blessed and a father of many nations. Abraham got impatient, and took matters into his own hands.


The covenantal blessings are not to be upon Ishmael, but Isaac, whom Sarah will give birth to. When Abraham asks God to allow Ishmael to be the one in which those covenantal blessings flow, God rejects his request.

Genesis 17:19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.”


God says no. He will not have His chosen people come from a union that was conceived in sin. He wants His line to come from those He has chosen. The people of God are always His work, not man’s work. Therefore He tells Abraham that it will be through Sarah that the covenantal blessings will come...It is through this line that the Messiah will come and redeem the chosen throughout the world. God will not have fallen man adding to His plan of redemption. Even though Abraham was a friend of God, it is God’s work that brings about this redemption and Isaac. God is showing that when it comes to His will and plan, He can work through a couple that are far past the age of childbearing.

Genesis 18:11-12 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”


The text is telling us that Sarah no longer had the ability to have children. A miracle will have to be performed in order for her to have children. God will have to take something that is dead and make it alive. He will have to bring her womb to life again for her to have a child. God is the One that gave Sarah and Abraham the ability to have Isaac. Again, it is His plan that will be carried out in His way, not Abraham’s supplemental plan. God has a purpose and a plan for His chosen at all stages, and no, mankind cannot thwart that plan... No matter what you think to the contrary.


As for Ismael, he WILL be blessed. God tells Abraham this....

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

He is blessed because he is Abraham’s son. God does that as a favor to Abraham. The man will grow and twelve princes will come from him, and he will be a great nation. In this instance, given God has already been clear in His rejection of Ishmael as the child of the covenantal promise ... A great nation.. Could imply greatness in numbers. You have to think what constitutes greatness and is it what you see happening in Islamic lands today..


Genesis 17:21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”


Also consider... that when God initially tells Abraham of the coming child, He says that Sarah will be the mother of kings and many nations.

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

Whereas Ismael will father twelve princes and one nation, Sarah will be the mother of many nations and many kings, showing covenantal supremacy in God’s election of them. So...While Ishmael is blessed, he is NOT of the chosen line of God. It is through the line of Isaac that the covenant blessings pass. This is what God’s word says and we need to rest upon it. The Samaritans were rejected because of their revisionist history, As I must reject your revisionist ideas of what you feel God should have said to make things clearer for yourself. It's clear... It's there... The fault is not with The Lord but within yourself because you don't choose to understand it. It has to come down to choice.. Because really it is not difficult to understand.

Also it shows us that those outside of covenantal blessings are not completely ignored by God. He may not extend His eternal blessings to them by bringing them into the covenant, but He still blesses them in life. Ishmael was blessed by God. He had his good things in life. That's not to be sniffed at.

Peace

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As for Isaiah 21 it concerns three prophecies:


1. The burdon of the desert of the sea
2. The burdon on Durah
3. The burdon on Arabia


These prophecies describe different events about the area , one is the fall of Babylon , second the coming of the messiah as shown by the riders of charriots of asses and the coming of the arabian prophet as the riders of Camels


What you mentioned about 21:7 is part of the burdon of the desert of the sea which describe the fall of babylon

Honestly it does not.. It is what it claims to be an account of the fall of Babylon. Jesus as Messiah has no connection with a chariot of asses.. Does it not say chariots of camels? Whereas Prophet Mohammed most certainly rode a camel is there evidence he ever rode a chariot pulled by camels? Or in this instance the use of metaphors may be acceptable to you.

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To answer your final question :


This is an islamic - christian debate blogg , everybody presents and debates to prove a point. You and burninglight are debating to prove your point of christianity and we muslims are debating to prove our point , thats how debate bloggs work !!!! why do you think we are participating then !!!!

no need to be uppity... I was simply curious as to why you feel to seek to destroy another's faith. Personally, it's not important to me weather you accept or reject what I say.. More often rejection is the way I see.. :) I simply seek to dispel some misconceptions some muslims have about Christians and Christianity and the Bible. I've learnt quite a lot during my time here, and I have to say it was a cause of some personal sadness to be discriminated against with this new rule about limiting the number of posts we can contribute to. I don't see why it's necessary and it's certainly not conducive to fostering any mutual understanding. Still... As the saying goes your forum ..your rules.. I expect the reasons behind it are clear to muslims. Sad though .. Very sad.

Peace unto you.

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First god blessed Abraham and told him he would be a great nation :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing
. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)


So Abraham's blessing and greatness comes from his decendents by blessing Abraham and blessing themselves (this is what muslims say five times a day during prayer : the prayer goes like this God bless Muhammed and his family as you have blessed Abraham and his family .....)


So a great nation blesses Abaraham , also they :


6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
, who will hear of all these statutes and say,
'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8


So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god and glorifies Abraham and blesses him which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis




Going to see how this applies to Ishmael from what you said :


"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)


Also :


Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20 RSV).


It is not me who is nitpicking from the bible , you need to read the passage carefully and compare it together


The same phrase used by god to Abraham is used to Ishmael .

I really don't know what I can add here to what's been said already...God said to Moses in :

Exodus 3:6


6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

God did not mention Ishmael... Another reason to suppose that the blessing of Ishmael was not the same as the covenantal blessing of Isaac.

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Concerning
the only son
Isaac or Ishmael i' invite you to read this :


Abraham: One God, Three Wives, Five Religions


Frances Worthington

I shall check it out. Do you think the opinion of Frances Worthington is greater than scripture?

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@
Pandora : are you the Burninglight's spokeswoman


????


about the Moriah ' s land the exact location is doubtful ---
unknown location
---




about "Temple Mount" ; sorry I do not believe in the existence of any temple in this blessed land ( Jerusalem )

again I'm not sure what it is you want me to address here... And you of course are entitled to your opinion as I am to disagree with it.

Peace unto you

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Originally Posted by pandora

Sorry, but I really think I have given you answers both here and other threads where you have demanded them of me... And my friend.. You have NOT answered all my questions. You have been very selective with your answers. To be honest, I'm not prepared to play these games of yours.. It's bad enough being restricted to only three threads at a time for reasons I do not understand. That you continue to waste time going over the same points.. Even having been given answers (which I have done to the best of my ability) you are still prevaricating!! I will leave it to readers to make up their minds... I find my face is increasingly not bothered.

I have Already addressed all your questions

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Originally Posted by ; pandora

Based on their understanding, their understanding of the scriptures, which has to be based on something. Which I would take as an authority over your own...

What something!!!! and what about the different understanding of this passage such as the understanding of the Samaritans !!! Is their understanding based on something!!!!

This is speculation there is no proof here

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

just read Genesis in its entirety and see what conclusion it leads you to... Or Kings..or Ezra or any of the others mentioned in the article. As to what the Samaritans may have believed then that's all fine.. As a Christian I have faith in the Bible and the accounts within. As it's primarily the Bible is what you have issue with surely that should be of primary consideration.

I did so as the Samaritans who also belief in Genisis and the first five books which composes the Torah and still reach to the conclusion that Moriah is not in the temple mount rather it is mountain Jerzeem .

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

Yes your response on this matter I found unsatisfactory. Your pondering on what God should or should not have said is immaterial.. We have to deal with what we have when God was giving Abraham the sign of the covenant, namely circumcision, Abraham asked God that the covenant would be placed on Ishmael.

Not on what god said rather what is written in the text

Second this was not the section I was talking about which you did not answer rather it was what you quoted in response number 38

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Originally Posted by ;محمد سني 1989

First god blessed Abraham and told him he would be a great nation :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.

And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing

. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

So Abraham's blessing and greatness comes from his decendents by blessing Abraham and blessing themselves (this is what muslims say five times a day during prayer : the prayer goes like this God bless Muhammed and his family as you have blessed Abraham and his family .....)

So a great nation blesses Abaraham , also they :

6 Observe them carefully, for thus will

you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations

, who will hear of all these statutes and say,

'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god and glorifies Abraham and blesses him which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis


Going to see how this applies to Ishmael from what you said :

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

Also :

Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20 RSV).

It is not me who is nitpicking from the bible , you need to read the passage carefully and compare it together

The same phrase used by god to Abraham is used to Ishmael .

However I will still address what you said here

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

Genesis 17:17-18 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

Abraham knows the difficulty that it will be for he and Sarah to have a child... Their age was against them. This is what brought about his impatience in the first place, leading him to sleep with Hagar, which gave him Ishmael. Remember that God had told Abraham that he would be blessed and a father of many nations. Abraham got impatient, and took matters into his own hands.

Yes we believe the miracle birth of Isaac but what has this to do with anything , god blessed both and brought both to this world to bring prophets from their dicendents and to bring their followers too from their linage. Ishmael is still Abraham's son and he was blessed. This still does not show any superiority remember Moses and Aron were not Joseph's decendents.

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

The covenantal blessings are not to be upon Ishmael, but Isaac, whom Sarah will give birth to. When Abraham asks God to allow Ishmael to be the one in which those covenantal blessings flow, God rejects his request.

Genesis 17:19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.”

You have to read it within the whole context :

15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16"I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"18And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"19But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him 20"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.…

The context of the passage clearly shows god telling Abraham I have heard you meaning heard your prayer and accepted , So god blessed him and made him a great nation and as I described a great nation before from the bible is one which has a law and worships god and blesses Abraham. This same term god used on Abraham before :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing
. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

Another discription falls into Ishmael too:

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

This is within the same meaning as above God hears Abraham's request with Ishmael because he is simply the offspring of Abraham


Genesis 18:11-12 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

The text is telling us that Sarah no longer had the ability to have children. A miracle will have to be performed in order for her to have children. God will have to take something that is dead and make it alive. He will have to bring her womb to life again for her to have a child. God is the One that gave Sarah and Abraham the ability to have Isaac. Again, it is His plan that will be carried out in His way, not Abraham’s supplemental plan. God has a purpose and a plan for His chosen at all stages, and no, mankind cannot thwart that plan... No matter what you think to the contrary.

The text never said anything about a plan , this is your personal interpritation. As I have showed above God still according to the biblical writers still told that he has heard Abraham

However there is a very big important point which I need to clarify here :

The original King James bible DOES NOT have the word "No" in it the text is simply :

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him (GENESIS 17:19)


What is really ironic too is that in the new international version you got the word "Yes" instead of "No"

Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.GENESIS 17:19
New International version

You could check for your self :
http://biblehub.com/genesis/17-19.htm

So your whole argument which was based on No cannot have an accurate basis

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

Genesis 17:21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

Continue the passage :
22When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.23Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him 24Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.26In the very same day Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his sonGenesis 17: 22-26

Genesis 17 which talks about the covenant of circumcission ends here

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

Also consider... that when God initially tells Abraham of the coming child, He says that Sarah will be the mother of kings and many nations.

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

Whereas Ismael will father twelve princes and one nation, Sarah will be the mother of many nations and many kings, showing covenantal supremacy in God’s election of them. So...While Ishmael is blessed, he is NOT of the chosen line of God. It is through the line of Isaac that the covenant blessings pass. This is what God’s word says and we need to rest upon it. The Samaritans were rejected because of their revisionist history, As I must reject your revisionist ideas of what you feel God should have said to make things clearer for yourself. It's clear... It's there... The fault is not with The Lord but within yourself because you don't choose to understand it. It has to come down to choice.. Because really it is not difficult to understand.

Again you are claming that my objection is to god rather it is to the writers of the bible. AS I said before we believe your scripture is corrupted so when I say that I am objecting somehow it is not on God , God forbid rather on the Jewish writers of the bible . such establishment of covenant only to Isaac seems very doubtfull based on the fact that Abraham also cried for his son Ishmael and that god responded by saying he has heard it and he has blessed his son Ishmael and he will have a great nation plus the idea and the contradiction still places itself when it is stated take your ONLY SON , this no matter what explanation is provided does not remove the contradiction for God did not say take your only son whom I have established the covenant with!!!

As for the number of nations well God said :
16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

So god said kings of people , meaning who rule . This refers to actual kings ;

and she shall be a mother of nations; of the twelve tribes of Israel; of the two nations of Israel and Judah:

kings of people shall be of her; as David, Solomon, and others, and especially the King Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Great nation supresedes many nations since there were no mention of greatness one can say so !!!


peace

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Originally Posted by pandora

Honestly it does not.. It is what it claims to be an account of the fall of Babylon. Jesus as Messiah has no connection with a chariot of asses.. Does it not say chariots of camels? Whereas Prophet Mohammed most certainly rode a camel is there evidence he ever rode a chariot pulled by camels? Or in this instance the use of metaphors may be acceptable to you.

First the jews understood it much differently than you do :

the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310]

Rabbi Shimon bin Yohai is one of the fundimental and honered rabbis in the maintsream Jusaism (Not just The kabbala)

As for Chariots :

A chariot with a couple of horsemen; rather, a troop of horsemen riding two and two. This is exactly how a cavalry force was ordinarily represented by the Assyrians. Chariots are not intended either here or in ver. 9. They were not employed by the Persians until a late period of their history (see 'Ancient Monarchies,' vol. 4. pp. 113, 122). A chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; rather, men mounted on asses and on camels. It is well known that both animals were employed by the Persians in their expeditions to carry the baggage (Herod., 1:80; 4:129; Xen., 'Cyrop.,' 7:1, etc.). But neither animal was ever attached to a chariot.

Source : pulpit commentary

Also see:

And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen - This passage is very obscure from the ambiguity of the word רכב rekeb - 'chariot.' Gesenius contends that it should be rendered 'cavalry,' and that it refers to cavalry two abreast hastening to the destruction of the city. The word רכב rekeb denotes properly a chariot or wagon Judges 5:28; a collection of wagons 2 Chronicles 1:14; 2 Chronicles 8:6; 2 Chronicles 9:25; and sometimes refers to the "horses or men" attached to a chariot. 'David houghed all the chariots' 2 Samuel 8:4; that is, all the "horses" belonging to them. 'David killed of the Syrians seven hundred chariots' 2 Samuel 10:18; that is, all "the men" belonging to seven hundred chariots. According to the present Masoretic pointing, the word רכב rekeb does not mean, perhaps, anything else than a chariot strictly, but other forms of the word with the same letters denote "riders or cavalry." Thus, the word רכב rakâb denotes a horseman 2 Kings 9:17; a charioteer or driver of a chariot 1 Kings 22:34; Jeremiah 51:21. The verb רבב râbab means "to ride," and is usually applied to riding on the backs of horses or camels; and the sense here is, that the watchman saw "a riding," or persons riding two abreast; that is, "cavalry," or men borne on horses, and camels, and asses, and hastening to attack the city.
With a couple of horsemen - The word 'couple' (צמד tsemed) means properly a "yoke or pair;" and it means here that the cavalry was seen "in pairs, that is," two abreast.
A chariot of asses - Or rather, as above, "a riding" on donkeys - an approach of men in this manner to battle.Asses were formerly used in war where ............And a chariot of camels - A "riding" on camels. Camels also were used in war, perhaps usually to carry the baggage (see Diod. ii. 54; iii. 44; Livy, xxxvii. 40; Strabo, xvi. 3). They are used for all purposes of burden in the East, and particularly in Arabia.

Source : Barne's notes on the bible

So chariots simply means riders on camels and donkeys

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

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Originally Posted by ;pandora

no need to be uppity... I was simply curious as to why you feel to seek to destroy another's faith. Personally, it's not important to me weather you accept or reject what I say.. More often rejection is the way I see.. :) I simply seek to dispel some misconceptions some muslims have about Christians and Christianity and the Bible. I've learnt quite a lot during my time here, and I have to say it was a cause of some personal sadness to be discriminated against with this new rule about limiting the number of posts we can contribute to. I don't see why it's necessary and it's certainly not conducive to fostering any mutual understanding. Still... As the saying goes your forum ..your rules.. I expect the reasons behind it are clear to muslims. Sad though .. Very sad.

Peace unto you.

I was very reluctant to answer or respond to this part simply because I felt it is not my place to answer , I usually tend to avoid responding to anything that has to do with the mediator of the forum. But since you are applying it to religous reasons I have to respond. Every single new member whether Muslim or Christian in this forum should exceed a certain amount of responses to have his post posted , this also applied to me , I have been here since February and I only got updated recently because I have exceeded a certain amount of responses.Again the rules apply to all members.


peace