Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

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مـواقـع شـقــيـقـة
شبكة الفرقان الإسلامية شبكة سبيل الإسلام شبكة كلمة سواء الدعوية منتديات حراس العقيدة
البشارة الإسلامية منتديات طريق الإيمان منتدى التوحيد مكتبة المهتدون
موقع الشيخ احمد ديدات تليفزيون الحقيقة شبكة برسوميات المرصد الإسلامي لمقاومة التنصير
غرفة الحوار الإسلامي المسيحي مكافح الشبهات شبكة الحقيقة الإسلامية موقع الدعوة الإسلامية
شبكة البهائية فى الميزان شبكة الأحمدية فى الميزان مركز براهين شبكة ضد الإلحاد

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Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

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Thread: Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    it is an experience and revelation of knowledge and truth that can accompany feelings but necessarily. Didn't you know there is a difference between knowledge and feelings? Take love for instance, love can accompany feelings but not necessarily. You can give your enemy who is thirsty a cup of water without having feelings be they emotional or whatever.
    I never said the passage says that explicitly, but we can infer that from Biblical hermeneutics and Biblical scholars concur. It is not my private interpretation as you say. It is understood by the congregation of churches in general. You are the one coming up with private interpretation that Jesus shouting out His last words means failure and a discrepancy in the central gospel message. You are seeing this all on your own. We don't see what you talking about as being a point here, because it isn't.
    Some people do say gibberish as their last words. Look it up online. A man gave his last words before being put to death on an electric chair: "You people are going to see French fries." Jesus saying "Why have you forsaken me" is not gibberish but it is significant to our belief

    . Jesus said, "You must be born again..." That is why the Bible states that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God!!!
    It is your opinion and nothing more that the BIBLE IS NOT RELIABLE as you have mentioned so many times. I can say the same about the Quran. The truth is both of our faiths have difficulties in them that we don't always know the answer to. I am willing to admit it, but Muslims are not it seems, and I understand why, but it doesn't stop me from seeing them in the Quran.
    Your comment about me being crafty wasn't necessary. You just want to keep me on the defensive about the Bible, and don't want to be on the defensive about the Quran so you call me "crafty." The title of this thread is to examine what makes more sense between any aspects of our faith; so there is no craft involved when I use the Quran as an example of what the Bible is not in terms of how we received our Scriptures.
    Islam has to attack Christianity to promote its religion, but Christianity doesn't have to do this, and it is not a reaction against other faiths the way the Quran is against the Bible. The Bible just tells you it is this and that way and lets the chips fall where they may, and for this reason, Christianity with all its difficulties makes more sense to me than Islam.

    Peace

    Peace
    First : That is my point , you say it is meaning , yet you do not know most of what the bible means , thats what you said !!!! So it does not have any meaning when christians come up and say I saw the light , I am born again !!! They still know the same amount of knowledge as they did before . Love is feeling just as repulsiveness , hate , joyfull and satisfaction , they are feelings nothing more man.

    Second: As for what you said here :

    I never said the passage says that explicitly, but we can infer that from Biblical hermeneutics and Biblical scholars concur. It is not my private interpretation as you say. It is understood by the congregation of churches in general. You are the one coming up with private interpretation that Jesus shouting out His last words means failure and a discrepancy in the central gospel message. You are seeing this all on your own. We don't see what you talking about as being a point here, because it isn't.



    You can see that both statements in red are contradictory . If it was my private interpritation then why are you saying that the passage indirectly says what you are saying????

    More importantly the context of the passage does not really serve such obscure interpritation , an interpritation that does not actually have meaning

    I mean this is your personal interpritation of the passage when you come and say something like this :

    Yes, God is talking to Israel, but Jesus is the culmination of all that happens to Israel for he was sent to them!
    What does this mean !!!! This is not an answer !!! The passage never said culmination , Do you even know what the word culmination is ???? Or are you just saying stuff that does not mean anything in an attempt to answer !!!!

    Here you go :

    "Amid the faintness, or the confusion of mind, felt at the approach of death, he experiences his abandonment by God; and yet his soul rests firmly on, and his wilt is fully subject to, God, while he is thus tasting death forevery man through God's grace .... He held firmly to God and retained the Divinity of his life, at the time when in his unity with mankind, and in his human feeling, the feeling of abandonment by God amazed him" (Lange). The verb "forsaken" is not in the perfect tense, as translated in the Authorized Version, but in the aorist; and it implies that during the three hours of darkness Christ had been in silence enduring this utter desolation, which had now come to its climax. The Man Christ Jesus asked whyhe was thus deserted; his human heart would fain comprehend this phase of the propitiatory sufferings which he was undergoing. No answer came from the darkened heaven; but the cry was heard; the unspeakable sacrifice, a sacrifice necessary according to the Almighty's purpose, was accepted, and with his own blood he obtained eternal redemption for man.

    Source : pulpit commentary

    So the church interpritation actually says what I say yet they try to twist and bend in order to explain this !!!!

    Third: let me again state what I said about a person's last words:

    no body would in their right mind say giberish for their last words rather they would say what they felt
    This is what I said so nobody with healthy mind would say giberish in their last words

    Then you come and say this :
    These are things that will make no sense to the unregenerated mind, heart and soul. Jesus said, "You must be born again..." That is why the Bible states that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God!!!


    Well my friend your twisted logic which contradicts common sense , really does not serve your argument. You claim that if you are born again you will know the answers yet I see that you have no answers, in fact my debating non christians you actually have discovered things about your bible which you never imagined were true .
    Plus this argument is laughable in another way , I could tell you to understand Islam you have to convert, or a Jew could say the samething , LOL this is no answer my friend , it just show your inability to answer

    Fourth : You have no idea about your faith , because christianity had a long history of attacking the jews , in fact if you read the history of the first three to six centuries of christianity you would know. Today christianity attacks Islam and tries to defame it but the fact of the matter is that this tactic of them does not work , Islam is still spreading by rapid numbers in areas like france , germany and other areas.
    The fact that you claim that going on the attack itself is not neccesary contradicts the bible in the OT and NT. Just look at what Jesus peace be upon him did when he saw the Jews defaming the temple , did he go on the attack or did he sit down and minded his own business ???

    plus and more importantly all these statement from you and you still did not answer my argument :

    If the twelve men wrote what happened years later and because that they started to forget then that my friend proves that :
    1. Most of what they wrote are unreliable
    2. They were not guided by God because forgetting things related to God's scripture before documenting it means that God did not support their writing nor were they guided by the holy ghost when writting
    As usual you used the whole ignore and change the topic to avoid answering this fact
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First : That is my point , you say it is meaning , yet you do not know most of what the bible means , thats what you said !!!! So it does not have any meaning when christians come up and say I saw the light , I am born again !!! They still know the same amount of knowledge as they did before. Love is feeling just as repulsiveness , hate , joyfull and satisfaction , they are feelings nothing more man. .
    You are wrong man.
    Love is a choice, that can but (not always) involve feelings especially when "feelings" start to wane; for instance, when people you love give you a hard time, you can and must choose to love them through it without feelings or warm emotions. This involves agape love that comes from God. God commands us in His word that we should love even our enemies. I guess you cannot understand this since there is no such command for love in your religion.
    True God given love contrary to what you say is ultimately a choice and a commitment that, as I mentioned, may or may not accompany feelings or emotion. I think you just like to debate and argue for the sake of it friend.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Second: As for what you said here :
    I never said the passage says that explicitly, but we can infer that from Biblical hermeneutics and Biblical scholars concur. It is not my private interpretation as you say. It is understood by the congregation of churches in general. You are the one coming up with private interpretation that Jesus shouting out His last words means failure and a discrepancy in the central gospel message. You are seeing this all on your own. We don't see what you talking about as being a point here, because it isn't.
    You can see that both statements in red are contradictory . If it was my private interpritation then why are you saying that the passage indirectly says what you are saying????.
    I see no contradictions, because yours is the private interpretation not mine. Christians as a whole believe Jesus is the culmination of Israel. Do you know what culmination means?

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    More importantly the context of the passage does not really serve such obscure interpritation , an interpritation that does not actually have meaning

    I mean this is your personal interpritation of the passage when you come and say something like this :

    Yes, God is talking to Israel, but Jesus is the culmination of all that happens to Israel for he was sent to them! Right?
    What does this mean !!!! This is not an answer !!! The passage never said culmination , Do you even know what the word culmination is ???? Or are you just saying stuff that does not mean anything in an attempt to answer !!!!.
    What are you talking about here? Again, do you know what culmination means? If you did, I don't think you would've made this comment.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Fourth : You have no idea about your faith , because christianity had a long history of attacking the jews , in fact if you read the history of the first three to six centuries of christianity you would know. Today christianity attacks Islam and tries to defame it but the fact of the matter is that this tactic of them does not work , Islam is still spreading by rapid numbers in areas like france , germany and other areas.
    The fact that you claim that going on the attack itself is not neccesary contradicts the bible in the OT and NT. Just look at what Jesus peace be upon him did when he saw the Jews defaming the temple , did he go on the attack or did he sit down and minded his own business ???

    plus and more importantly all these statement from you and you still did not answer my argument :

    If the twelve men wrote what happened years later and because that they started to forget then that my friend proves that :
    1. Most of what they wrote are unreliable
    2. They were not guided by God because forgetting things related to God's scripture before documenting it means that God did not support their writing nor were they guided by the holy ghost when writting
    As usual you used the whole ignore and change the topic to avoid answering this fact
    I haven't ignored you and you have mentioned no facts. My posts don't always show up in time or at all sometimes. I answered you by quoting the verses in question:
    Mat. 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
    Luke: 23: 44)It was now about the sixth hour,] and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

    It is possible that Jesus said both during or about the 9th hour because it was about that hour. About is not an exact time so both statement could have been made. You are grasping at straws here, and have not proven Biblical unreliability has you had hoped. At least not with us Christians, and you have missed the point of the passage you quote being blinded by your misdirected zeal to prove the Bible is corrupted.

    The point is that Jesus did die for our sin. He paid for your sin and mine; you are without Christ's sacrifice for your sin, and will have to account to God for your sins in the past, present and future and be judged. Jesus said it to you: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He, and no one comes to the father (God /Allah) except through me."
    You have strayed from your Creator and the topic of this thread. How did you get to the Christians attacking Jews and Muslims? What does that have to do with the topic?

    You debate me and argue and reject truth from the Bible at your own spiritual peril along with all others reading and rejecting this message. If the Bible was corrupted, than so is the Quran, because Allah said he sent down the torah and gospel to your prophet Muhammad as guidance and light with no mention of corruption. We still have the same manuscripts he had in his hand in the 7th century. God said in those Scriptures: "My word is established forever in heaven....,"and the Quran says that no one can alter or change Allah's words. So, if the torah and gospel (Allah's words) were altered, Allah's word in the Quran isn't true; if the Bible, however, has not been altered, then the Quran is not true, because it clashes with the torah and gospel; so, in light of this, it makes more sense to me to be Christian than Muslim which is the topic of this thread!

    peace

    peace

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First : That is my point , you say it is meaning , yet you do not know most of what the bible means , thats what you said !!!! So it does not have any meaning when christians come up and say I saw the light , I am born again !!! They still know the same amount of knowledge as they did before .
    I didn't say that, and it is not about Christians saying I've been born again or I've seen the light; besides, only you would dare to deny one's testimony; it is about what Jesus said not Christians, "You must be born again.. to see the kingdom of heaven" or you'll never see it much less be there. These are not my sayings; they are His!!!

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    You are wrong man.
    Love is a choice, that can but (not always) involve feelings especially when "feelings" start to wane; for instance, when people you love give you a hard time, you can and must choose to love them through it without feelings or warm emotions. This involves agape love that comes from God. God commands us in His word that we should love even our enemies. I guess you cannot understand this since there is no such command for love in your religion.
    True God given love contrary to what you say is ultimately a choice and a commitment that, as I mentioned, may or may not accompany feelings or emotion. I think you just like to debate and argue for the sake of it friend.
    I see no contradictions, because yours is the private interpretation not mine. Christians as a whole believe Jesus is the culmination of Israel. Do you know what culmination means?

    What are you talking about here? Again, do you know what culmination means? If you did, I don't think you would've made this comment.

    I haven't ignored you and you have mentioned no facts. My posts don't always show up in time or at all sometimes. I answered you by quoting the verses in question:
    Mat. 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
    Luke: 23: 44)It was now about the sixth hour,] and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

    It is possible that Jesus said both during or about the 9th hour because it was about that hour. About is not an exact time so both statement could have been made. You are grasping at straws here, and have not proven Biblical unreliability has you had hoped. At least not with us Christians, and you have missed the point of the passage you quote being blinded by your misdirected zeal to prove the Bible is corrupted.



    You debate me and argue and reject truth from the Bible at your own spiritual peril along with all others reading and rejecting this message. If the Bible was corrupted, than so is the Quran, because Allah said he sent down the torah and gospel to your prophet Muhammad as guidance and light with no mention of corruption. We still have the same manuscripts he had in his hand in the 7th century. God said in those Scriptures: "My word is established forever in heaven....,"and the Quran says that no one can alter or change Allah's words. So, if the torah and gospel (Allah's words) were altered, Allah's word in the Quran isn't true; if the Bible, however, has not been altered, then the Quran is not true, because it clashes with the torah and gospel; so, in light of this, it makes more sense to me to be Christian than Muslim which is the topic of this thread!

    peace

    peace
    You know nothing about my religion :



    On the authority of Anas ibn malik (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
    "No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself."

    (Bukhari & Muslim)

    You know nothing about yours :

    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14: 26

    Love is a feeling there is no debate about this , apparantly you do not know the difference between love and showing love . There is a big difference and the fact that you twist and turn to interperate the word love in this ways shows an agony in your situation.
    You are contradicting , you say you know knowledge but yet you admit of not knowing !!!!! What you knew is the bloody and heretic history of the vatican church which made you convert to protistant.

    Second: I do know what culmination means but it has nothing to do with the last words of Jesus which you still cannot explain

    Third : As for the possibility that jesus said both , I have already answered and addressed that in a previous response which you did not answer :



    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 602342;محمد سني 1989

    Jesus could not have said both because they are both speaking of his last words :

    And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.



    Luke 23: 46


    And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

    Mark 15: 37




    This was his last moment , a loud cry so according to Mark his last words was god why have you forsaken me

    I know what you will say , you will say the loud cry is what jesus said in Luke , that is wrong in two ways :

    1. Mark and Matthew are both older than Luke , Mark 40 AD Matthew 70-100 AD . As for Luke it was written 80- 90 AD

    2. biblical commentary describe the loud cry in Mark as something different:


    Verse 37.
    -
    And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost
    . The three synoptists all mention this cry,
    which appears to have been something different from the words
    which he uttered at or about the time of his death.
    It was evidently something supernatural
    , and was so regarded by the centurion who stood by; and who had no doubt been accustomed to scenes like these.

    Source :
    Pulpit Commentary


    You have been born blind and have become more blind , your interpritation of the text is based upon personal opinion. The fact that you admitted that there are variations and errors in the bible is enough , however your defense is that it does not effect the central message of the bible . This is a pathetic attempt to blindside the readers on the fact that your holy book has errors!!!!! LOL . The errors themselves do hit many of the core principles of christianity like the ressurection story , the crusifix story and many more

    As for the Quran , LOL do not make me laugh again burninglight , you keep proving to me you know nothing about your ow religion and so I am not surprised when you come and make absurd comments like the quran never mentioned the corruption of the bible !!!:

    Here you go :

    Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?Quran 1:75

    Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion.
    Quran 4: 46

    So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.Quran 5:13


    O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

    Quran 3:71


    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
    Quran 3: 187


    So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
    Quran 2: 79



    From hadeeth :

    Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:

    Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


    Saheeh Bukhary
    Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850


    God said nobody can alter the Quran not the torah and the gospel, The quran

    never stated that the torah and the gospel were not altered , the verse you

    speek about talks about the Quran


    Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.


    Quran 15: 9






    Conclusion:


    I really can't see any sign of your so called knowledge ,

    maybe its time to start thinking and open your eyes


    Christians Agree that there are variations in there gospels and the Quran

    affirms it , christians claim that it is not important because it does not

    contradict the central message , however even if that is true it still means

    that the writers did not have the holy ghost upon them and were not inspired

    by God!!! Therefore christianity contradicts itself. By also further looking into

    these variations we see that they do in fact affect the central message and

    therefore another contradiction again !!!! christianity does not make sense

    here. While Islam affirms the corruption of the scriptures and claims that the

    Quran do not contradict itself neither do it contain variations and it was

    perfectly preserved therefore it is worthy to be called devinly inspired and

    so Islam makes perfect sense here .
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I didn't say that, and it is not about Christians saying I've been born again or I've seen the light; besides, only you would dare to deny one's testimony; it is about what Jesus said not Christians, "You must be born again.. to see the kingdom of heaven" or you'll never see it much less be there. These are not my sayings; they are His!!!Peace
    Here you contradict your self You said before that being born again means gaining knowledge yet you yourself in a previous thread stated that you do not much about the bible and what it means , your whole argument is based on "convert and you will know" yet it seems that you lack the knowledge
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Here you contradict your self You said before that being born again means gaining knowledge yet you yourself in a previous thread stated that you do not much about the bible and what it means , your whole argument is based on "convert and you will know" yet it seems that you lack the knowledge
    I never said gaining knowledge means being born again. It seems you make untrue statements about what I am saying to gain advantage, but it won't work you also made an untrue state about me in the previous post saying I know nothing about Christianity and I know nothing about Islam. This is easy to prove wrong; for instance, I know that in your religion you believe that the slave messenger of Allah is Muhammad whose name you must mention in the second part of the shahada to be a Muslim; I know that Islam falsely accuses Christianity of associating partners to God; I know that Islam accuses the Christians of having a corrupted Bible that the Jews changed, but they don't know who among the Jews did this or when and how much they corrupted, where or what they corrupted nor their motive or how they benefited from changing it.

    I know that Christians see this as an attempt to promote the Quran. They see it as nonsense, because if Allah wouldn't or couldn't preserve the torah and gospel that came before logic and common sense tells us he wouldn't be able to do it after. Muslims are, therefore, expecting me to believe that man's power to corrupt was greater than Allah's power to preserve the Scripture that came before.
    Muslims expect me to believe Allah couldn't come up with at least one uncorrupted torah and gospel among the nations to show his power to preserve all his words and not just the Quran which Uthman put to writing without a divine mandate to do so from Allah.

    Why didn't Allah see the corruption coming to the torah and gospel and be its guardian at the time his word needed protection from the Jews??? This is tooooooo far fetch, and for this reason Christianity makes more sense than a religion that has to cut down Jews and Christians and even the torah and gospel to promote Islam. Show me where the Quran says the gospel Allah sent down to his prophet for guidance and light is corrupted or missing! If you cannot, such a statement is contrived and should be ignored and will be.

    Also when I post to you, your responses comes across as attacking, rude, belligerent and insecure. Why is that your reaction? You don't understand that variation's in the gospel are to be expected and do NOT effect the central gospel message. Moreover, I don't want you to see a sign of my knowledge. Knowledge is puffed up as the great apostle Paul would say. Love edifies and is not puffed up.
    Christians will in the name of Jesus tear down every imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God with the sword of the spirit and of God's word. This is not a physical sword it is the word of God which is quick and powerful sharper than any two edged blade that pierces to the dividing of the soul and spirit the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    All the verses you quoted from the Quran are accusatory toward people of the Scripture. The Bible says Satan is the accuser of the saints. Anyone who has Jesus (Born again) is a saint. The Quran in some places tells us people of the Scripture we are noble, and we should stand on the Scripture that as been revealed to us, and then it tells us when we do it we confuse falsehood for truth. This is contradiction and confusion. The Bible tells us that Satan is not only the father of lies, he is the author of confusion. In light of this new evidence, I rule in favor of Christianity making more sense than Islam.

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I never said gaining knowledge means being born again. It seems you make untrue statements about what I am saying to gain advantage, but it won't work you also made an untrue state about me in the previous post saying I know nothing about Christianity and I know nothing about Islam. This is easy to prove wrong; for instance, I know that in your religion you believe that the slave messenger of Allah is Muhammad whose name you must mention in the second part of the shahada to be a Muslim; I know that Islam falsely accuses Christianity of associating partners to God; I know that Islam accuses the Christians of having a corrupted Bible that the Jews changed, but they don't know who among the Jews did this or when and how much they corrupted, where or what they corrupted nor their motive or how they benefited from changing it.

    I know that Christians see this as an attempt to promote the Quran. They see it as nonsense, because if Allah wouldn't or couldn't preserve the torah and gospel that came before logic and common sense tells us he wouldn't be able to do it after. Muslims are, therefore, expecting me to believe that man's power to corrupt was greater than Allah's power to preserve the Scripture that came before.
    Muslims expect me to believe Allah couldn't come up with at least one uncorrupted torah and gospel among the nations to show his power to preserve all his words and not just the Quran which Uthman put to writing without a divine mandate to do so from Allah.

    Why didn't Allah see the corruption coming to the torah and gospel and be its guardian at the time his word needed protection from the Jews??? This is tooooooo far fetch, and for this reason Christianity makes more sense than a religion that has to cut down Jews and Christians and even the torah and gospel to promote Islam. Show me where the Quran says the gospel Allah sent down to his prophet for guidance and light is corrupted or missing! If you cannot, such a statement is contrived and should be ignored and will be.

    Also when I post to you, your responses comes across as attacking, rude, belligerent and insecure. Why is that your reaction? You don't understand that variation's in the gospel are to be expected and do NOT effect the central gospel message. Moreover, I don't want you to see a sign of my knowledge. Knowledge is puffed up as the great apostle Paul would say. Love edifies and is not puffed up.
    Christians will in the name of Jesus tear down every imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God with the sword of the spirit and of God's word. This is not a physical sword it is the word of God which is quick and powerful sharper than any two edged blade that pierces to the dividing of the soul and spirit the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    All the verses you quoted from the Quran are accusatory toward people of the Scripture. The Bible says Satan is the accuser of the saints. Anyone who has Jesus (Born again) is a saint. The Quran in some places tells us people of the Scripture we are noble, and we should stand on the Scripture that as been revealed to us, and then it tells us when we do it we confuse falsehood for truth. This is contradiction and confusion. The Bible tells us that Satan is not only the father of lies, he is the author of confusion. In light of this new evidence, I rule in favor of Christianity making more sense than Islam.

    Peace

    You said that born again does not mean more knowledge (although you did in a previous response and you know it) then what is it ??? before and after ???

    As for who corrupted the bible , one example : Paul with the beliefs and representation of Jesus.
    Another the writers of Mark , Matthew , luke and John over the years.

    Corrupting the scripture is not proving that man's power is more than god especially that the line of prophets is still going on. This actually contradicts your earlier statement of addmitting the varriations exist but does not affect the central theme (although it does) !!!!
    Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness. Man can never have the upper hand on God. The scriptures was given to the Jews as a commitment for them to keep it safe rather they fullsified it and preached other ideologies. One example is the number of books in the OT which Jews differed on like the samaritan OT which has much less books in it than the traditional jewish book. You cannot say that they are both right because they both have different scriptures and both accuse each other of corrupting the bible

    AS for the writting of it and the original torah and gospel . There was during the time of Moses and Jesus the original Torah and original gospel respectively which muslims believe that is what the quran says . Uthman never wrote the quran , it was already compiled and written during the time of the prophet and Abu bakr as Ishowed you before (and you know it) , what Uthman did is that he took the quran which Zaid wrote during the time of abubakr and made many copies of it to distribute to all the islamic cities.

    While the NT for example we do not know who the writers were??? We have four accounts of jesus ??? The earliest gospel (Mark) was written 40 AD
    Christianity depends on the historical manuscript to prove the authenticity of these scriptures (not oral tradition) yet the oldest is a fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the first half of the second century!!!!!! The earlies manuscripts themselves also contain multiple variations!!!! by multiple biblical new testament scholars describe it as thousands!!!! Me myself when I first heard and saw this , I thought to myself christians are definetly going to deny this , however surprisingly they did not !!!! their excuse it does not affect the central message !!! and they still claim it is from god and the writers with their variations were inspired by God!!!!! This my friend shows that christianity makes no sense at all.

    Knowledge is a way to know god more . You and Paul's negativity towards knowldge contributes the anti knowledge-science heritage that the church holds throughout its history. The message I see from your dialogue and from what you are saying is close your eyes and mind and just believe , whether it makes sense or not which is ironic since this topic is about which religion makes more sense. So when you say stuff like that you are not contributing positively to your argument rather you are contradicting your own conclusion!!!!

    The Quran distingushes in the previous Israel prophetic times between the people of the scriptures who obeyed and those who disobeyed. There is a difference for example between Kaleb the follower of Moses and Aron peace be upon them and Korah or Karoon in Arabic. Kaleb is a believer and a divote servant of God while Korah is in hell. There is a difference between Judas and paul on one hand and Peter and John on the other hand.

    However it is important to note that even though you talk too much about the Quran yet you still do not actually quote it which means that you do not actually read it rather hear what your pastors , priests , bishops say.

    And more importantly I think you have avoided quoting the last response to avoid answering passages like this :




    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14: 26



    and this :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ; محمد سني 1989

    Jesus could not have said both because they are both speaking of his last words :

    And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.





    Luke 23: 46



    And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.


    Mark 15: 37





    This was his last moment , a loud cry so according to Mark his last words was god why have you forsaken me

    I know what you will say , you will say the loud cry is what jesus said in Luke , that is wrong in two ways :

    1. Mark and Matthew are both older than Luke , Mark 40 AD Matthew 70-100 AD . As for Luke it was written 80- 90 AD

    2. biblical commentary describe the loud cry in Mark as something different:



    Verse 37.
    -
    And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost
    . The three synoptists all mention this cry,
    which appears to have been something different from the words
    which he uttered at or about the time of his death.
    It was evidently something supernatural
    , and was so regarded by the centurion who stood by; and who had no doubt been accustomed to scenes like these.


    Source :

    Pulpit Commentary



    peace
    Last edited by محمد سني 1989; 24-08-2014 at 05:14 AM.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    You said that born again does not mean more knowledge (although you did in a previous response and you know it) then what is it ??? before and after ???
    Please give the quote and prove it. Just saying in a previous response, I said this and you said that doesn't cut it friend; you do that a lot even in most of your arguments on Scriptures - see the quote below as my point.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    As for who corrupted the bible , one example : Paul with the beliefs and representation of Jesus.
    Another the writers of Mark , Matthew , luke and John over the years.
    Here is an example of you saying the Bible is corrupted over the years without proof or an example. You just go by what your leaders tell you or what you read on the internet.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Corrupting the scripture is not proving that man's power is more than god especially that the line of prophets is still going on. This actually contradicts your earlier statement of addmitting the varriations exist but does not affect the central theme (although it does) !!!!
    Yes it is. Did Allah send down the torah and gospel for guidance and light to Islam's messenger? If you answer yes, I rest my case. Why would Allah guard his later word and not his earlier word? Where is the logic and reason behind it? God gave us intelligence man. So I am using it, and concluded that your position makes NO SENSE man! Please answer these questions and stop avoiding them.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness. Man can never have the upper hand on God. The scriptures was given to the Jews as a commitment for them to keep it safe rather they fullsified it and preached other ideologies. One example is the number of books in the OT which Jews differed on like the samaritan OT which has much less books in it than the traditional jewish book. You cannot say that they are both right because they both have different scriptures and both accuse each other of corrupting the bible
    Well, according to you, man did get the upper hand by changing Allah's word and making it corrupted which was not Allah's will; so, he had to send his word again and guard what he wouldn't or couldn't do the first time. This logic is insane man, and only you are willing to believe it. Besides, written Scripture corruption is not the reason God kept sending prophets. It is because they disobeyed the torah in their written interpretation and in their actions which were recorded as God inspired the prophets to do. That, FYI, is not Biblical corruption! What attempts to corrupt the Scriptures that came before is the Quran especially after Uthman recompiled it and destroyed the evidence (Original Qurans).
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    AS for the writting of it and the original torah and gospel . There was during the time of Moses and Jesus the original Torah and original gospel respectively which muslims believe that is what the quran says . Uthman never wrote the quran , it was already compiled and written during the time of the prophet and Abu bakr as Ishowed you before (and you know it) , what Uthman did is that he took the quran which Zaid wrote during the time of abubakr and made many copies of it to distribute to all the islamic cities. While the NT for example we do not know who the writers were??? We have four accounts of jesus ??? The earliest gospel (Mark) was written 40 AD
    Christianity depends on the historical manuscript to prove the authenticity of these scriptures (not oral tradition) yet the oldest is a fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the first half of the second century!!!!!! The earlies manuscripts themselves also contain multiple variations!!!! by multiple biblical new testament scholars describe it as thousands!!!! Me myself when I first heard and saw this , I thought to myself christians are definetly going to deny this , however surprisingly they did not !!!! their excuse it does not affect the central message !!! and they still claim it is from god and the writers with their variations were inspired by God!!!!! This my friend shows that christianity makes no sense at all.
    Allah told Muhammad as recorded in the Quran that he sent down the torah and gospel to him for guidance and light. If the Bible is corrupted it had to have happened some time after your prophet was born or after his death. Variations in the different manuscripts are not corruptions. Moreover, inspired by God doesn't mean that God wrote it the way the Quran was supposedly written or the way the ten commandments were actually written by the finger of God. You are not making sense. I told you that men inspired by God means they wrote the way they understood and saw things from God. There is bound to be some variation that doesn't effect the central gospel message. You say it does, but you, as always, give NO Proof. You are all talk man, and you know not what manner of spirit you have.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Knowledge is a way to know god more . You and Paul's negativity towards knowldge contributes the anti knowledge-science heritage that the church holds throughout its history. The message I see from your dialogue and from what you are saying is close your eyes and mind and just believe , whether it makes sense or not which is ironic since this topic is about which religion makes more sense. So when you say stuff like that you are not contributing positively to your argument rather you are contradicting your own conclusion!!!!
    You are deceiving yourself here. Sorry to have to say this but, it appears to me that knowledge and truth are who you have made your enemies and ignorance and deception are who you prefer for friends.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    The Quran distingushes in the previous Israel prophetic times between the people of the scriptures who obeyed and those who disobeyed. There is a difference for example between Kaleb the follower of Moses and Aron peace be upon them and Korah or Karoon in Arabic. Kaleb is a believer and a divote servant of God while Korah is in hell. There is a difference between Judas and paul on one hand and Peter and John on the other hand.
    And what is the point you're trying to make here?
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    However it is important to note that even though you talk too much about the Quran yet you still do not actually quote it which means that you do not actually read it rather hear what your pastors , priests , bishops say.
    You are the one that is doing too much talking and saying nothing; why do I have to quote the verse when you know the verses I am referring to from the Quran? Why don't you give the quote I am saying if you know your Quran? Proof I am quoting what it means incorrectly? If what I say about the Quran is true, why do you need the quotation from me? Don't you know it? When you quote the Bible, I don't need the reference unless I challenge you on it. I know what the Bible says. It seems you need the reference for the Quran for some reason, uhm, why to prove to you I read it???

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    And more importantly I think you have avoided quoting the last response to avoid answering passages like this :
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14: 26

    and this :




    peace
    I am not avoiding it, I haven't gotten to it yet. Jesus is not saying dishonor your parents; He is saying that you should put Him and love Him above your parents and your life. How could you even think that Jesus would want someone to actually hate their parents, their brothers, and sisters which is an act of murder? Jesus tells us love even our enemies so how can you come to such an ignorant conclusion?
    Jesus is saying we are not honoring Him unless we honor Him above our parents, family, friends, life, and above all. You quote this verse out of ignorance to its meaning, context and connotation which makes my case about you true.

    Peace,,, and I pray you come to the knowledge of truth and not dig in your heels over this post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Please give the quote and prove it. Just saying in a previous response, I said this and you said that doesn't cut it friend; you do that a lot even in most of your arguments on Scriptures - see the quote below as my point.



    Here is an example of you saying the Bible is corrupted over the years without proof or an example. You just go by what your leaders tell you or what you read on the internet.
    You asked for a name not a proof , focus and becareful. I also stated the unknown editors of Mark , Matthew , Luke and John were also involved . The ending of Mark did not exist and was added to the gospel of Mark in the late 5th century as an example.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight


    Yes it is. Did Allah send down the torah and gospel for guidance and light to Islam's messenger? If you answer yes, I rest my case. Why would Allah guard his later word and not his earlier word? Where is the logic and reason behind it? God gave us intelligence man. So I am using it, and concluded that your position makes NO SENSE man! Please answer these questions and stop avoiding them.
    No , God did not sent down the ORIGINAL torah and gospel as a guidance and light to the prophet rather as a guidance and light to the followers of Moses and Jesus. God would guard his later words because it is his last words sent down with the last messenger. However the previous scriptures were not his last and the prophets were not the last prophets. I already explained this in my last response. I NEVER avoided it , you just did not read it

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight



    Well, according to you, man did get the upper hand by changing Allah's word and making it corrupted which was not Allah's will; so, he had to send his word again and guard what he wouldn't or couldn't do the first time. This logic is insane man, and only you are willing to believe it. Besides, written Scripture corruption is not the reason God kept sending prophets.
    I said one of the reasons and I emphasized it , the fact that you stated the contrary shows that you are skimming through my response:

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ; محمد سني 1989

    Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness
    plus you said this :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    It is because they disobeyed the torah in their written interpretation and in their actions which were recorded as God inspired the prophets to do. That, FYI, is not Biblical corruption!
    Yet in other thread you admitted to errors in the torah but you called it typos!!!!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    What attempts to corrupt the Scriptures that came before is the Quran especially after Uthman recompiled it and destroyed the evidence (Original Qurans).
    That is lie and you know it. I already proved you false in this matter but you keep bringing it up :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;محمد سني 1989
    Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. ........So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman........They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

    Sahih al-Bukhari 4987,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 510


    The orginal Quran was returned to Hafsa during Uthman's time , can't be more clear than that.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Brninglight

    Allah told Muhammad as recorded in the Quran that he sent down the torah and gospel to him for guidance and light.
    That is a lie. look above

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    . Variations in the different manuscripts are not corruptions. Moreover, inspired by God doesn't mean that God wrote it the way the Quran was supposedly written or the way the ten commandments were actually written by the finger of God. You are not making sense. I told you that men inspired by God means they wrote the way they understood and saw things from God. There is bound to be some variation that doesn't effect the central gospel message. You say it does, but you, as always, give NO Proof. You are all talk man, and you know not what manner of spirit you have.
    You are deceiving yourself here. Sorry to have to say this but, it appears to me that knowledge and truth are who you have made your enemies and ignorance and deception are who you prefer for friends.
    Not varriations between different manuscripts rather between different manuscripts and ALSO different from the ALL EARLIER manuscripts. Such variations can only mean that it was not inspired by God !!!!
    No proof!!!!! Are you convincing me or your self

    When Mark's original ending ends with :
    8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
    Then this means that the writer of the gospel of Mark never believed that Jesus appeared to the deciples after he died !!!!! Are you saying this does not hurt the central message !!!!

    It seems to me that your closest friend is deception and your weapon is ignorance and avoidance , your enemies are truth and knowledge , and your driving skill is fear from truth. But unfortunatelly that does not surprise me , the history of the church is filled with this.


    This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God???

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight


    And what is the point you're trying to make here?
    This is a response to your understanding about the Quran , the verses which are praising previous followers of prophets are to certain people while the ones cursing them are to another , thats why I put the examples above

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight
    You are the one that is doing too much talking and saying nothing; why do I have to quote the verse when you know the verses I am referring to from the Quran?
    LOL because you are talking about things that do not exist in the quran or verses that are actually talking about somethng different that what you are describing. So you are saying squat my friend nothing .

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    Why don't you give the quote I am saying if you know your Quran? Proof I am quoting what it means incorrectly?
    That is not my responsibility . It is a debator's reponsibility to quote right and be ready before a debate and not just say stuff out of his mind that is not how debates work my friend plus the verses you are talking about do not exist!!!!

    Where in the Quran did God say that the torah and gospel as light and guidanceto the prophet !!!!!!!!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    If what I say about the Quran is true, why do you need the quotation from me?
    LOL , because it is not . You are simply throwing accusations and creating things that do not exist in the Quran. As I said before ignorance is your weapon

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    Don't you know it? When you quote the Bible, I don't need the reference unless I challenge you on it. I know what the Bible says. It seems you need the reference for the Quran for some reason, uhm, why to prove to you I read it???
    ummmm , how about debate integrity , something which you obviously lack

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight




    Jesus is saying we are not honoring Him unless we honor Him above our parents, family, friends, life, and above all. You quote this verse out of ignorance to its meaning, context and connotation which makes my case about you true.
    Yes that is the mainstream interpritation of christianity , but still there is a big question mark on the word hate. plus it was a response to you
    Why use hate , plus the context did no mention what you are saying!!!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    Peace,,, and I pray you come to the knowledge of truth and not dig in your heels over this post!
    I will pray the same for you but remember I stated two questions for you above which I expect an answer in the next response of yours, lets see if you will answer or will you ignore it ??
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    Please give the quote and prove it. Just saying in a previous response, I said this and you said that doesn't cut it friend; you do that a lot even in most of your arguments on Scriptures - see the quote below as my point.



    So now you want me to Quote !! hhmmmmm I wonder why ??

    Here you go :

    in response 62 you said

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    I don't know the answer, but I would be so fast to call it a contradiction. Maybe, they are recording different last words they remember Jesus saying.
    Another for you my friend, in response 64

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by ;Burninglight

    there are many difficulties for me in the Bible I don't know the answer to nor do I accept all of what other Christians give as solutions, but I don't give up on the Bible
    These were two examples
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity