Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

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مـواقـع شـقــيـقـة
شبكة الفرقان الإسلامية شبكة سبيل الإسلام شبكة كلمة سواء الدعوية منتديات حراس العقيدة
البشارة الإسلامية منتديات طريق الإيمان منتدى التوحيد مكتبة المهتدون
موقع الشيخ احمد ديدات تليفزيون الحقيقة شبكة برسوميات شبكة المسيح كلمة الله
غرفة الحوار الإسلامي المسيحي مكافح الشبهات شبكة الحقيقة الإسلامية موقع بشارة المسيح
شبكة البهائية فى الميزان شبكة الأحمدية فى الميزان مركز براهين شبكة ضد الإلحاد

يرجى عدم تناول موضوعات سياسية حتى لا تتعرض العضوية للحظر

 

       

         

 

    

 

 

    

 

Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

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Thread: Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

  1. #21
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    Huria, please what important questions did you feel I avoided? And what topics did I divert?

    So many to counts, you pick and choose what you like to answer but when you cornered you starting diverting topic, for start my last question is Jesus your God if so was he, born, and carried in the womb for 9 months?? But you know Pandora it does not matter, the truth is clear, no matter what twisting and diverting you do.

    You have not persuaded me to see Islam as truth.

    Talking to you was not to convince you of the truth it is to show the truth, not necessarily to you but this forum is open to anyone who is sincere and can see my replies and your replies and make their choice where is the truth.

    "And say, The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Quran 18:29

    You would have to prove to me that Jesus was a liar.

    Our beloved Jesus peace upon him did not lie, you attributed lies to him, you will know the truth but I hope not when it is too late.

    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance

  2. #22
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    All prophets are mighty in deeds and word or else they would not be prophets .

    The book of acts does not have an actual author known , it has been suggested that it was wrote down by Iranaeus. However christian tradition holds that it was written by a man named luke (not the same luke of the gospel) who accompanied paul and was his student. If this is true it does not matter since according to you this was paul's interpriation not jesus and paul never companied jesus. Plus we muslims have an extremely negative view of Paul
    And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home." Matthew 13

    are the words of Jesus good enough that we see Him as a Prophet? Out of the 102 names and titles the Jesus is referred to in the Bible.. Note. Son Of Mary was not one of them. I know well who Luke companion of Paul was.. As I know well Muslim negative opinions of Paul. You are entitled to your opinions..

    Peace unto you

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren


    makes it possible.... for the sake of argument.... Also can apply... You are putting your own interpretation on the scriptures here. Which does not change the fact the the Bible is very clear that the Ishmaelite's were NOT considered brethren to the Israelites. Just as it is clear that the child of promise was Isaac.. And from his line prophets would come. Not even the Quran backs up your supposition that Ishmael was the child of promise.. As the child is not named so leaving you to interpret things yourselves.

    Quote
    You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
    1. They both came with a law
    2. They both migrated from their homeland
    3. They both were revealed to in a cave
    4. They waged wars
    5. They both ruled their people
    6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
    7. They both married and had children
    8. They both were revealed to at an old age
    9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
    10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
    11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory
    these points can also apply to other leaders and prophets of the time... Solomon.. David.. For a start. A comparison should be on their works and ministry.

    1. Ministry Core #1: Moses brought salvation to God's people from physical slavery and led them to a physical Promised Land of peace and plenty. Jesus brought salvation to God's people from spiritual bondage and showed them the way to a spiritual Promised land of peace and plenty (heaven). The ministry of Muhammad did not entail him bringing salvation to God's people.


    2. Ministry Core #2: Moses was uniquely a mediator between God and God's people, averting God's wrath, interceding for them and standing between them and God (Numbers 21:7, 16:42-50, Exodus 15:23-25, Exodus 19). This was the core part of Jesus' ministry as well, interceding on behalf of God's people (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 7:25), averting God's wrath.


    3. Ministry Core #3: Moses brought a new covenant to the Israelites – Moses and Jesus were the only two people in history who brought or mediated a covenant of between God and his people. The new covenant of Jesus was prophesied by Jeremiah:


    "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
    Jesus taught with authority a new internally-directed law as part of this new covenant (e.g. Matthew 5-7). Muhammad never claimed to bring any new covenant, but rather intended to restore the same system as in the days of Abraham.
    Actually, the Tawrat and Qur'n state outright what the unique characteristics of Moses are:


    "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders" (Deuteronomy 34:10-11)
    "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses .. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.." (Numbers 12:6-8)


    "Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Exodus 33:11)


    So we can add two more "unique characteristics" of Moses to our list now:
    4. Ministry Core #4: Speaking with God directly, not through angel intermediaries or dreams


    Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses regularly heard God directly rather than through visions or angel intermediaries (Numbers 12:6-8, Ex 33:11). The Qur'n agrees with this: In Sura Al-Nisa 4:163-164 the Qur'n says that Muhammad and all the other prophets were simply inspired, but "…to Moses God spoke directly (تَكلِيمَا)". Moses is listed separately because God spoke to him directly.


    Muhammad used to receive revelation through the angel Gabriel (Baqarah 2:97). Jesus is also described of speaking with God directly, even face-to-face. In his transfiguration on the mountaintop (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), God addressed Jesus directly on a mountain-top, just as he did to Moses. It is clear throughout the Gospels that Jesus heard directly from God without an angel intermediary.


    5. Ministry Core #5: Performed Powerful Miraculous Signs


    According to the Qur'n , Jesus performed many supernatural miracles (3:49, 2:253), but according to the Qur'n , Muhammad's only miraculous sign was the Qur'n (29:48-51). Both Jesus and Moses performed numerous mighty miracles which are well-documented in their scriptures.


    If we want to look at more superficial similarities, we can still find twice the amount as that drawn by Naik and Deedat:


    6. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were Israelites.
    7. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were born into poor, non-influential families, but Muhammad was born into a prominent family.


    8. Both Jesus and Moses were raised by their own mothers, but Muhammad was raised in the desert by the Bedouin wet-nurse Halimah.


    9. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were plotted to be killed at infancy by a ruler's edict.


    10. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were rescued by divine intervention at infancy (Exodus 2:2-10; Matthew 2:13)


    11. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses travelled from Egypt to Palestine where they completed their ministry.


    12. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses spoke with God "face to face" on a mountain (Exodus 33:11 Matthew 17:3), after which their faces "shone" (Exodus 34:29, Matthew 17:2)


    13. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses demonstrated supernatural control over the waters; Moses dividing the Red Sea, Jesus calming the storm.


    14. Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years, Jesus for forty days. (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1)


    15. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses prophesied events that were fulfilled (Deuteronomy 18:15-22; 28:15-29:67; Matthew 24)

    http://www.unchangingword.com/md_in_bible_dt18.php


    Quote
    God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
    Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
    Quote
    And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


    I have spoken of Covenants before.. Where does this Sura claim Mohammed authored a covenant with God? It states We took from the prophets.. And then ? Were these covenants given over to Mohammed? Which ones? Since all the major biblical covenants were given for set purposes to particular prophets. I see the only biblical covenant muslims may loosely adhere to is the Abrahamic Covenant.. But even in that you do not adhere to all the terms. I have not found anything in the Quran to suggest any new covenant with God was authored by prophet Mohammed.. When covenants are mentioned it in some way applies to the Biblical covenants.


    To be continued...

    Peace unto you.

  4. #24
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    I would like to add one thing to Pandora's post. Unlike Islam's messenger, Jesus was God and Moses was told by God he would be God to Aaron and Israel's enemies. Aaron would be Moses' prophet. Now that puts the icing on the cake. Besides the Bible states that Jesus is the one Moses spoke of in Deut. 18; 18 way before the birth of Islam.

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    makes it possible.... for the sake of argument.... Also can apply... You are putting your own interpretation on the scriptures here. Which does not change the fact the the Bible is very clear that the Ishmaelite's were NOT considered brethren to the Israelites. Just as it is clear that the child of promise was Isaac.. And from his line prophets would come. Not even the Quran backs up your supposition that Ishmael was the child of promise.. As the child is not named so leaving you to interpret things yourselves.



    these points can also apply to other leaders and prophets of the time... Solomon.. David.. For a start. A comparison should be on their works and ministry.

    [/SIZE]1. Ministry Core #1: Moses brought salvation to God's people from physical slavery and led them to a physical Promised Land of peace and plenty. Jesus brought salvation to God's people from spiritual bondage and showed them the way to a spiritual Promised land of peace and plenty (heaven). The ministry of Muhammad did not entail him bringing salvation to God's people.


    2. Ministry Core #2: Moses was uniquely a mediator between God and God's people, averting God's wrath, interceding for them and standing between them and God (Numbers 21:7, 16:42-50, Exodus 15:23-25, Exodus 19). This was the core part of Jesus' ministry as well, interceding on behalf of God's people (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 7:25), averting God's wrath.


    3. Ministry Core #3: Moses brought a new covenant to the Israelites – Moses and Jesus were the only two people in history who brought or mediated a covenant of between God and his people. The new covenant of Jesus was prophesied by Jeremiah:


    "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
    Jesus taught with authority a new internally-directed law as part of this new covenant (e.g. Matthew 5-7). Muhammad never claimed to bring any new covenant, but rather intended to restore the same system as in the days of Abraham.
    Actually, the Tawrat and Qur'n state outright what the unique characteristics of Moses are:


    "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders" (Deuteronomy 34:10-11)
    "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses .. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.." (Numbers 12:6-8)


    "Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Exodus 33:11)


    So we can add two more "unique characteristics" of Moses to our list now:
    4. Ministry Core #4: Speaking with God directly, not through angel intermediaries or dreams


    Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses regularly heard God directly rather than through visions or angel intermediaries (Numbers 12:6-8, Ex 33:11). The Qur'n agrees with this: In Sura Al-Nisa 4:163-164 the Qur'n says that Muhammad and all the other prophets were simply inspired, but "…to Moses God spoke directly (تَكلِيمَا)". Moses is listed separately because God spoke to him directly.


    Muhammad used to receive revelation through the angel Gabriel (Baqarah 2:97). Jesus is also described of speaking with God directly, even face-to-face. In his transfiguration on the mountaintop (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), God addressed Jesus directly on a mountain-top, just as he did to Moses. It is clear throughout the Gospels that Jesus heard directly from God without an angel intermediary.


    5. Ministry Core #5: Performed Powerful Miraculous Signs


    According to the Qur'n , Jesus performed many supernatural miracles (3:49, 2:253), but according to the Qur'n , Muhammad's only miraculous sign was the Qur'n (29:48-51). Both Jesus and Moses performed numerous mighty miracles which are well-documented in their scriptures.


    If we want to look at more superficial similarities, we can still find twice the amount as that drawn by Naik and Deedat:


    6. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were Israelites.
    7. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were born into poor, non-influential families, but Muhammad was born into a prominent family.


    8. Both Jesus and Moses were raised by their own mothers, but Muhammad was raised in the desert by the Bedouin wet-nurse Halimah.


    9. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were plotted to be killed at infancy by a ruler's edict.


    10. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were rescued by divine intervention at infancy (Exodus 2:2-10; Matthew 2:13)


    11. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses travelled from Egypt to Palestine where they completed their ministry.


    12. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses spoke with God "face to face" on a mountain (Exodus 33:11 Matthew 17:3), after which their faces "shone" (Exodus 34:29, Matthew 17:2)


    13. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses demonstrated supernatural control over the waters; Moses dividing the Red Sea, Jesus calming the storm.


    14. Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years, Jesus for forty days. (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1)


    15. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses prophesied events that were fulfilled (Deuteronomy 18:15-22; 28:15-29:67; Matthew 24)

    http://www.unchangingword.com/md_in_bible_dt18.php


    [SIZE=5]

    [/FONT]I have spoken of Covenants before.. Where does this Sura claim Mohammed authored a covenant with God? It states We took from the prophets.. And then ? Were these covenants given over to Mohammed? Which ones? Since all the major biblical covenants were given for set purposes to particular prophets. I see the only biblical covenant muslims may loosely adhere to is the Abrahamic Covenant.. But even in that you do not adhere to all the terms. I have not found anything in the Quran to suggest any new covenant with God was authored by prophet Mohammed.. When covenants are mentioned it in some way applies to the Biblical covenants.


    To be continued...

    Peace unto you.
    First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
    As for the promise child ( who was going to be sacrificed) most of the hadeeths and tafseers which are authentic specify that it was Ishmael , yes true that the quran only reffered to the son of Abraham but the hadeeth and interpritation of the first generations of the companions of the prophet specifically stated that it was Ishmael , I am here reffering to the authntic (saheeh) narration

    Second : There are many mistakes withing your comparisons:

    1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
    while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

    2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

    3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
    the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
    .

    Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :


    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


    Matthew 15:24

    Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

    4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

    5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

    But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



    And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


    These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

    The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
    And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
    Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

    And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

    And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

    Surah Alanfal verse 17

    6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

    7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
    ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

    8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

    9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

    11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
    Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

    12.Wrong Already answered in 4

    13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

    Anas b. Malik reported:

    I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


    Anas reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

    This is just one example


    14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

    difference , plus both occasions are different



    15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

    examples:

    1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
    ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
    While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
    2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
    Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
    By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
    Habbab concluded:
    By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
    The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
    3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
    During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
    What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
    ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

    The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
    4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
    The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
    5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
    The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
    The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
    6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
    http://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
    7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

    Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

    Here is the interpritation of the text :

    Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
    (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


    tafseer ibn katheer

    Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

    Surah Al baqarah verse 124

    The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

    1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

    2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

    3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

    I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

    Peace
















    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home." Matthew 13

    are the words of Jesus good enough that we see Him as a Prophet? Out of the 102 names and titles the Jesus is referred to in the Bible.. Note. Son Of Mary was not one of them. I know well who Luke companion of Paul was.. As I know well Muslim negative opinions of Paul. You are entitled to your opinions..

    Peace unto you
    yes the word of jesus and other prophets are more than enough to see him as a prophet , as for the names Moses in the talmud and midrash also has many names , the prophet muhammed also has many names so this is not actually an answer
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
    1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
    while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

    2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

    3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
    the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
    .

    Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :


    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


    Matthew 15:24

    Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

    4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

    5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

    But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



    And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


    These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

    The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
    And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
    Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

    And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

    And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

    Surah Alanfal verse 17

    6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

    7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
    ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

    8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

    9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

    11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
    Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

    12.Wrong Already answered in 4

    13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

    Anas b. Malik reported:

    I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


    Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

    This is just one example


    14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

    difference , plus both occasions are different



    15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

    examples:

    1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
    ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
    While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
    2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
    Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
    By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
    Habbab concluded:
    By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
    The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
    3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
    During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
    What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
    ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

    The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
    4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
    The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
    5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
    The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
    The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
    6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
    http://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
    7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

    Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

    Here is the interpritation of the text :

    Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
    (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


    tafseer ibn katheer

    Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

    Surah Al baqarah verse 124

    The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

    1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

    2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

    3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

    I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

    Peace
















    It is not true that Moses would have said from among yourselves. If you look at Deut 17: 20-23, you'll see that Moses refers to his people as brothers. There are other places in Deut. that state from among your brothers that is referring to the children of Israel. God and Abraham HAD made it abundantly clear that no prophets come out of Ishmael. He was rejected by both Abraham and God as the child of promise. The descendants of Ishmael have a hard time accepting this fact in the Bible, and they are making up all kinds of apologetics to make it appear that he was a prophet, but both the Jew and the Christian can see no prophets come out of Ishmael and no Biblical verses speak of an Arab prophet from God that was to come. Finally, the NT bible has already claimed Jesus as the one Moses spoke of before Islam's messenger was born! Sorry but, the miracles you speak of done by your prophet have no authoritative source to the Jew or Christian nor does the Quran.

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    It is not true that Moses would have said from among yourselves. If you look at Deut 17: 20-23, you'll see that Moses refers to his people as brothers. There are other places in Deut. that state from among your brothers that is referring to the children of Israel. God and Abraham HAD made it abundantly clear that no prophets come out of Ishmael. He was rejected by both Abraham and God as the child of promise. The descendants of Ishmael have a hard time accepting this fact in the Bible, and they are making up all kinds of apologetics to make it appear that he was a prophet, but both the Jew and the Christian can see no prophets come out of Ishmael and no Biblical verses speak of an Arab prophet from God that was to come. Finally, the NT bible has already claimed Jesus as the one Moses spoke of before Islam's messenger was born! Sorry but, the miracles you speak of done by your prophet have no authoritative source to the Jew or Christian nor does the Quran.

    Peace
    You claim that the bible has no prophet comes out of ishmael yet he is said to be a great nation , and in Matthew it is stated that jesus is reffering to another nation, but yet we have no answer you on this. Also you claim that it has made it clear !!! where what the bible reffered to was the covenant with Isaac but does that mean no other prophet from ishmael!!!!

    The biblical text says it was isaac who was to be slaughtered yet this holds a huge contradiction:

    12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

    Genesis 22:12

    2 Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah

    Genesis 22 : 2

    16 and said: “I swear by my very self—oracle of the Lord—that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your son, your only one

    Genesis 22: 16

    We all agree that Ishmael was older than Isaac yet thetxt says Isaac but also states that he is his inly son!!!

    either Ishmael never existed or the jews replaced Ishmael with Isaac

    The nation of Ishmael :
    17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
    18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.


    Genesis 21: 17-18

    20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


    Genesis 17: 20

    This is what jesus said which you ignored : Matthew 21: 43: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit






    Also you claimed that Moses in Deutronomy 17: 20-23 called the israelites brothers , I am sorry but you should read your own bible first because Deutronomy 17: 21, 22 and 23 Does not exist

    Deutronomy 17 ends with 20 :
    20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

    This passage here is talking about the duties of an israelite so the order is from god to the israelite believer . It is important to note that I never said that bretheren is exclusive ti the ishmaelites only rather it can mean them or the israelites or the edomites even:

    And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

    Numbers 20: 14
    The fact that they were reffered to as brothers because of a common ancestor (Abraham) also gives the possibility that Ishmaelites were reffered to in the text

    However since Moses was speaking to the whole crowd of Israelites gathered then he should have said from you or from amongst your selves rather than using bretheren. If no other prophet was out of the linage of Israel then why use such a term which can be used for cousins !!!!

    As for the passage reffering to Jesus well there is two problems , first the multiple differences which I have stated between jesus and moses and more importantly this passage is describing a prophet a man meaning it contradicts your most fundimental belief !!!!!


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
    As for the promise child ( who was going to be sacrificed) most of the hadeeths and tafseers which are authentic specify that it was Ishmael , yes true that the quran only reffered to the son of Abraham but the hadeeth and interpritation of the first generations of the companions of the prophet specifically stated that it was Ishmael , I am here reffering to the authntic (saheeh) narration
    I repeat the Bible is clear on whom the term brethren refers to. No matter how much you disagree with it or wish to reinterpret the words to your own end. It will not change the facts. NO prophet came from Ishmael. The hadiths and tafseefs.. Are these divinely inspired, word of God or the deliberations of men? If you have to rely on the generations of Islamic scholars to arrive at a conclusion of something that is not clearly mentioned in the Quran.. Then what basis can you claim that is according to Gods will?

    Quote
    Second : There are many mistakes withing your comparisons:
    in your opinion.. I think you mean to say... As it's your opinion there are many mistakes... My replies in blue.

    1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
    while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

    What do you mean by the physical? (Migration to Medina) what has that to do with anything? There is no spiritual salvation in Islam... That's in my opinion.

    2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

    Wrong.. Not all prophets mediated a covenant with God. A covenant is an unchangeable, divinely imposed legal agreement between God and man that stipulates the conditions of their relationship. It's not in the remit of man to negotiate with God or change the terms of the covenant.. he can only accept the covenant obligations or reject them. Covenants are unchangeable. They may be superseded or replaced by a different covenant, but they may not be changed once they are established.

    3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

    What new law did Mohammed bring? Is your covenant conditional or unconditional? If the former what are the conditions? Jesus did fulfil the Law.. Mankind could NOT be saved by the Law, salvation is through Jesus as promised in the final covenant.. In that way Jesus fulfils the Law. This does not mean we discard the law or go about breaking the commandments with impunity. We still must obey Gods laws.. But we accept we are not saved by the law but by grace alone.

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
    the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
    .

    Here you are believing it is the muslims Jesus was referring to.... Why you would suppose this as there is no mention of Islam or muslims or Mohammed anywhere in the Bible... It can only be supposition on your part. This parable the "Kingdom of God" refers to the the Jews as people to whom the parable belonged. By rejecting the aforesaid Kingdom, which is what Jesus stands for, and to reject Him they reject Gods promised Kingdom. It shall be taken from you means - the Gospel ..that is Jesus.. shall be taken from you, and given to the Gentiles, who will receive it, and bring forth fruit to the glory of God. Bringing forth the fruits... in Matthew 21:34 an allusion is made to paying the landlord in kind, so here the Gentiles are represented as paying God thus. The returns which He expects for his grace are the fruits of grace; nothing can ever be acceptable in the sight of God that does not spring from himself.


    .
    Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :

    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matthew 15:24

    Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

    Jesus uses parables as a teaching method to point to a future reality... the Kingdom of God which is to come. The parables are signs along the way to help us find our way to the Kingdom and to recognize our destination. Yes, Jesus was sent for the Jews, as it was firstly the Jews who had hardened their hearts against God in their zeal to follow the law or their interpretation of it. However, the Bible also teaches that Jesus brought a message of salvation to all mankind that included the Gentiles then and the muslims now. It applies to all... The Kingdom is truly God’s and heavenly and not just the product of human aspiration, intelligence or creativity. It is the fulfilment of all God’s promises and the wiping away of every tear, sorrow, sighing, and suffering. It is the totality of God’s glory and the end to all that is sinful, evil and wrong. This is what Jesus brought.. Yes God is One.. The God. Jesus revealed in His person is greater than anything you can comprehend. You may repeat parrot fashion your mantra of one G do and no associates and believing in Mohammed as a prophet. I believe you sell yourself short in not opening your heart to all possibility of what God wishes us to know. You are so busy refuting His Word.. You could be missing out.



    4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

    yes, the disciples heard it.. However, God was not calling them "My Beloved Son. I can stand in an auditorium listening to a speaker along with hundreds of others... I would not assume the speaker was talking only to me! I really feel you are clutching at straws with this. Not all messages are transmitted by angels.... And not all angels speak the words of God. It's dangerous to believe such. You are making assumptions on the basis of a few lines from a verse... Looked at in entirety it's clear who was speaking to whom.


    5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

    But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



    And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


    These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

    The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
    And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
    Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

    And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

    And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

    Surah Alanfal verse 17

    I have serious doubts over the claims of miracles as you mention here. However, you believe in them. That's fine for you.

    6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

    All prophets were from the Israelites. At the risk of boring myself and others... The Bible is clear as crystal on who meets the requirements in regards to brethren.

    7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
    ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

    8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

    He was raised by his mother in as much she nursed him. Unknown to the pharaohs daughter the true nature of the "wet nurse" was actually the mother of Moses. Mohammed was nursed by a wet nurse... With no family connection. Unless you know otherwise.. But that was my belief.

    9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

    11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
    Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

    12.Wrong Already answered in 4

    13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

    Anas b. Malik reported:

    I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


    Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
    Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

    This is just one example


    14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

    difference , plus both occasions are different

    I don't think these points 9-14 you have addressed are worth pursuing.

    15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

    examples:

    1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
    ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
    While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
    2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
    Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
    By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
    Habbab concluded:
    By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
    The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
    3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
    During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
    What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
    ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

    The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
    4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
    The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
    5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
    The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
    The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
    6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
    http://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
    7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

    Again.. As prophecies go I don't see any of your examples are particularly important as prophecy. Out comes of battles and such can be easily guessed at.

    Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

    Here is the interpritation of the text :

    Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
    (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


    tafseer ibn katheer

    Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

    Surah Al baqarah verse 124

    The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

    1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

    2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

    3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

    I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

    Peace



    It's clear you don't understand the nature of the biblical covenants. If you believe all prophets are party to the same covenant. As I said NOT all Prophets authored a covenant with God.. Prophets ..According to you.. May well have taken an oath with God, an oath or promise is NOT the same as authoring a covenant. You have answered from your own Islamic perspective and your interpretation of what you see as biblical perspective. You can by all means criticise my lack of knowledge in regards to the Quran.. For sure I have never claimed to be an expert, or indeed have an expert to call upon to interpret it for me. I still find it hard to understand why Allah could not made it easier to understand so we would not need Islamic scholars in order to reach the right conclusion. When it comes to MY faith, My scriptures you have less room to call.... Seeing as you have made numerous errors yourself and despite being given a Christians account of a Christians belief .. You still hail to know best!!!

    Peace unto you.











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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    You claim that the bible has no prophet comes out of ishmael yet he is said to be a great nation , and in Matthew it is stated that jesus is reffering to another nation, but yet we have no answer you on this. Also you claim that it has made it clear !!! where what the bible reffered to was the covenant with Isaac but does that mean no other prophet from ishmael!!!!


    I don't know why this is so hard to understand. No one is claiming there was no promise made to Ishmael. God did promise Ishmael would be a great nation. However, Gods covenant was through Isaac.. And Kings and prophets would come from HIS line because God decided Isaac was the child of promise. The nation Jesus is referring to in Matthew is the gentile nation.. The Christians who accepted Jesus under the New Covenant. What proof have you that Jesus is referring to a nation far in the future over the legacy of the nation his disciples were sent to reach out to after His death and resurrection?

    Quote
    The biblical text says it was isaac who was to be slaughtered yet this holds a huge contradiction:
    Quote
    12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

    Genesis 22:12

    2 Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah

    Genesis 22 : 2

    16 and said: “I swear by my very self—oracle of the Lord—that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your son, your only one

    Genesis 22: 16

    We all agree that Ishmael was older than Isaac yet thetxt says Isaac but also states that he is his inly son!!!

    either Ishmael never existed or the jews replaced Ishmael with Isaac


    there is no contradiction to be found here. Isaac was the only son that counted as the child of promise, because it was the birth of Isaac that God ordained for Abraham and his wife Sarah in their advanced years. In fact, it was down to Sarah doubting God that Ishmael was born at all! As she did not have faith that God would provide a son for them and it was Sarah that persuaded Abraham to have a child with her slave Hagar. Where she should have put her trust in The Lord. Your only son or only one.. Always refers to Isaac. Of course Ishmael existed and what reason would the Jews have to change the names?

    Quote
    The nation of Ishmael :
    Quote
    17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
    18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.


    Genesis 21: 17-18

    20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation
    Quote
    Genesis 17: 20.



    Isaac's Birth Promised
    15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.”

    Whatever you may want to believe God promised Abraham it does not change the fact of what God actually promised Abraham in the Bible. Which is clear. God also said of Ishmael...

    He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Genesis 16:12

    Quote
    This is what jesus said which you ignored : Matthew 21: 43: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit


    I already addressed this point. It refers to the Gentiles.. In accepting Christ they are the ones who will "produce it's fruit" the fruit being the results of the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels.


    Quote
    Also you claimed that Moses in Deutronomy 17: 20-23 called the israelites brothers , I am sorry but you should read your own bible first because Deutronomy 17: 21, 22 and 23 Does not exist


    I am thinking the passage in question is...

    The Prophet
    14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”


    17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”


    21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

    Quote
    Deutronomy 17 ends with 20 :
    Quote
    20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

    This passage here is talking about the duties of an israelite so the order is from god to the israelite believer . It is important to note that I never said that bretheren is exclusive ti the ishmaelites only rather it can mean them or the israelites or the edomites even:

    And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

    Numbers 20: 14
    The fact that they were reffered to as brothers because of a common ancestor (Abraham) also gives the possibility that Ishmaelites were reffered to in the text

    However since Moses was speaking to the whole crowd of Israelites gathered then he should have said from you or from amongst your selves rather than using bretheren. If no other prophet was out of the linage of Israel then why use such a term which can be used for cousins !!!!

    As for the passage reffering to Jesus well there is two problems , first the multiple differences which I have stated between jesus and moses and more importantly this passage is describing a prophet a man meaning it contradicts your most fundimental belief !!!!!


    we seem to be going over the same ground time and time again.. This matter of brethren. To what purpose, it's quite clear you cannot accept the Bible is the authority on this matter.

    There is no problem in Jesus being referred to as a Prophet... And it does not contradict any fundamental Christian belief in regards to His person.. For Christ is all things to all men. Lord, Prophet, King and Son.. Son of man as Son of God. Any and all are acceptable for Christ Jesus Saviour and Redeemer.

    Peace unto you.

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Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity