Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

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Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    I accept your gracious apology. The emphasising of what you feel to be important points in colour is acceptable.... And I do not object to the odd word here and there as capitals.

    At at present I have many demands on my time, and also will be away and the location is not very good for wifi or internet connection. So I may not be able to respond to your posts. Please do not think I am ignoring your posts.

    Peace unto you.
    No worries

    Peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    [SIZE=5]First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

    WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

    David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.

    This statement is contradicted by what david said according to the bible:

    [/FONT][/RIGHT]
    For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

    David clearly here is saying that sacrifice for this sin to repent it is not fullfilling , plus the sacrifice here is animal but nevertheless David is literrally stating that this sin cannot be undone or forgiven by sacrifice, I never said that blood (animal ) is never required however It is not required in most circumstances in which I have explained earlier in our discussion



    The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise


    Here David clearly describes what kind of sacrifice needed to forgive him which is a true repentance from the heart and THAT IS MY POINT there is no need for god to sacrifice his son , David clearly states that all that is needed is a true repentence by the individual to god and regret for committing a sin

    The rest of what you said about a sin requiring a penalty is contradicted by the what daivd said about a broken heart and spirit , it is just your own attempt to force your understanding on the reality of the text

    And this is what is stated and taught in the OT :

    21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

    Ezekiel 18 :21-22

    These three examples in the OT of David , Jonah and Ezekiel clearly shows that god can forgive a sin if someone truly repents without the need of blood or so called penalty

    It is written that the just shall live by faith. David, Jonah and Ezekiel had a shadow of the promised salvation, because Jesus hadn't been born yet. That shadow was their faith and it was demonstrated by repentance and a contrite heart which is what the just do by faith. But when Jesus' ministry started and after His death and resurrection, the shadow would do no good, if we ignore the object of the shadow and type who is Jesus. Repentance is needed but can only be accomplished by faith in God's provision to us, and that is the gift of eternal life through His son. That is god's work to believe on Him whom He sent. Why do you think God would have Abraham sacrifice his son? It was to show that is what God was to do. Why do you think prophecy was given in Isaiah 53 that show Jesus taking our punishment. Repentance without Christ as your Savior will not profit anyone unless it was before Christ came into the world. Everyone reading this needs Jesus to be saved. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior. Jesus said what you always ignore: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I AM HE." He said, "No one comes to the father except by me." Your argument is not with us Christians it is with God and Jesus.

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    It is written that the just shall live by faith. David, Jonah and Ezekiel had a shadow of the promised salvation, because Jesus hadn't been born yet. That shadow was their faith and it was demonstrated by repentance and a contrite heart which is what the just do by faith. But when Jesus' ministry started and after His death and resurrection, the shadow would do no good, if we ignore the object of the shadow and type who is Jesus. Repentance is needed but can only be accomplished by faith in God's provision to us, and that is the gift of eternal life through His son. That is god's work to believe on Him whom He sent. Why do you think God would have Abraham sacrifice his son? It was to show that is what God was to do. Why do you think prophecy was given in Isaiah 53 that show Jesus taking our punishment. Repentance without Christ as your Savior will not profit anyone unless it was before Christ came into the world. Everyone reading this needs Jesus to be saved. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior. Jesus said what you always ignore: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I AM HE." He said, "No one comes to the father except by me." Your argument is not with us Christians it is with God and Jesus.

    Peace
    As for the shadow of sin , that does not show up in the OT and not in the NT . The new testament is clear about this when it comes to paul's writtings:

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.…

    Romans 5: 12-13

    No Shadow here rather literal sin

    AS for Isaiah 53 I already answered it and proved it does not prophecise anything about the torture of jesus rather it was a manipulation by the writers of the King james bible by separating between Isaiah 52 and 53 to remove it from its context. I am not going to repost answers which I have already answered
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post

    I just read your response and I see many misunderstandings and mistakes here :

    First God does put the blame on Eve , The idea here is that the bible tells us that the serpent only tricked eve and eve tricked adam while in the quran they were both tricked by satan. So ultimately the fact that Adam peace be upon him ate was because of Eve, the context of Genesis clearly shows this :

    [The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it] (Genesis 3:12)
    Then even in the punishment of adam Adam is blamed FOR LISTENING TO EVE NOT THE SERPANT :

    [Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree … cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life] (Genesis 3:17)

    More clearly is what first god said to Eve :

    13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


    Genesis 3:13
    Here God clearly BLAMES EVE ONLY FOR SHE WAS THE ONE WHO LISTENED TO SATAN .

    This is clearly stated in the writtings of paul :


    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

    1 Timothy 2:14






    Second as for what sister huria stated here :

    According to the Bible, God had said that when Adam eats from the tree he would surely die,
    “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die..” Genesis 2:17
    and the serpent said they will not surely die.
    The serpent was right
    —they did not die.]
    Then you come up and accuse her of god lying !!!!!!

    She did not accuse god of anything we do not belive in the bible but you do . She is showing you what THE BIBLE ACCUSES GOD , either this or we have a clear CONTRADICTION try to understand what others are saying before throwing such accusations


    Third yes the bible does show disagreement :

    15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
    Genesis 2: 15


    So Adam was created to take care of the garden of eden. That was the purpose of creation


    Fourth According to the bible Adam did not know how to be forgiven or at least according to christianity he was not forgiven since it was inherited :


    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come

    Romans 5:12-14

    Fifth Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his own children his first generation including kain , abael and seth and there sixty brothers and sisters according to islamic tradition also seth peace be upon him is also considered a prophet

    You might object to this idea but I could ask you that Noa was a messenger but did he stop being a messenger after the flood???

    Sixth the old testement does not teach us that sin is inherited but christianity do :

    one example :

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

    Romans 5:12

    Seven : Christianity clearly teaches us that himanity inherited a simple sin from eating from a tree and that without the sacrifice of the son of god death was upon humanity , the quote is death in Adam, Life in Jesus!!!!!

    Satan never said that :
    5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Genesis 3:5

    Satan wants you to think you are doomed and you have no hope so that you can say whats the point
    Satan is also crafty in another way; he comes and tells you are free from sin as long as you believe in that the son of god has taken the burdon and has died for any possible sin you could commit but ONLY AS LONG YOU BELIEVE IN THAT IDEA!!

    peace to you and may god guide you to truth
    The point is Eve was the first to be deceived and the blame went on her first and Adam as well. We can see that the woman's desire is toward her husband through out the ages to date like the Bible states, and man has to work by the sweat of his brow. It is obviously there in Islam as well that women are subject to men.
    I trust the Bible first, because the story originated there originally just like the virgin birth of Jesus. The Quran tries to improve on it, but it is rejected by those that know first to the Jew and then the Christian. Just logic alone tells me to trust the first source of a story and not someone trying to improve on it.

    Jews don't accept that we have inherited sin from Adam but neither do Christians. This is Muslim interpretation of the Bible. Basically, the Bible states that we have receive a sinful nature from our father Adam, but through the last Adam Jesus, we can receive a righteous nature.

    We all obviously have a propensity toward sin. It is very simple. Satan is still up to the same tricks and deceptions. He wants to get you to believe that you will not surely die in your sin if you don't receive Christ your only hope of glory. We as Christians can see that many fall for this lie.

    Jesus said board and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many go therein. He said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He and No one comes to the father except through me."
    You will have no one to blame on judgment day when you find yourselves left in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. These are not my words they are Jesus' words.
    You are going against someone you claim is your prophet as well. I recognize Jesus but not a stranger. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and follow." You do not hear His voice; therefore, you do not follow.
    You and I both dance to the beat of a different drummer. For some of us, only the judgment will tell us apart on the last day. May God have mercy on our souls.

    FYI, we are not free from sin as long as we believe Jesus died for our sin. We must repent and Jesus is the only one who can give us the strength to do it by God's grace and our faith. He is the author and finisher of our faith who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. We depend only on God.
    You depend on the arm of the flesh and you are not sure of your eternal destination but we are, because we have been sealed with a price of Jesus's blood like the children of Israel were with the lamb's blood on the door posts of their door during Passover.

    Those who don't have Jesus as their Savior, on judgment day, the death angel who claims for hell will not pass over them, but he will take them to eternal damnation forever apart from God and all His plan. Jesus said it. "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He." I believe Jesus is my Savior and you don't.

    You will have to tell Jesus on judgment day that you didn't believe this, because the Bible was corrupted, and Jesus will tell you, but I sent you my witnesses telling you to trust my words in the Bible. Why didn't you listen or heed? I am waiting for your response now or in the hereafter. May you come to the knowledge of truth sincerely.

    Peace

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    The point is Eve was the first to be deceived and the blame went on her first and Adam as well. We can see that the woman's desire is toward her husband through out the ages to date like the Bible states, and man has to work by the sweat of his brow. It is obviously there in Islam as well that women are subject to men.

    Jews don't accept that we have inherited sin from Adam but neither do Christians. This is Muslim interpretation of the Bible. Basically, the Bible states that we have receive a sinful nature from our father Adam, but through the last Adam Jesus, we can receive a righteous nature.

    We all obviously have a propensity toward sin.

    Peace

    Peace
    These are the only points I see worthy of answering or actually relates to the subject :
    First yes the bible do picture that eve was first to be deceived but the magnitude of the blame falls mostly on her not Adam as I have shown in previous responses

    Second the so called improvements you accused the quran of also applies to the New testament one example : it is only in the new testament not the OT which states that the serpent was satan, it is only on the NT that Adam transmitted this sin.

    As for inheritting the sin in christianity , again you are ignoring paul's words and the passages he wrote :

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

    Romans 5: 12-13

    peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    These are the only points I see worthy of answering or actually relates to the subject :
    First yes the bible do picture that eve was first to be deceived but the magnitude of the blame falls mostly on her not Adam as I have shown in previous responses

    Second the so called improvements you accused the quran of also applies to the New testament one example : it is only in the new testament not the OT which states that the serpent was satan, it is only on the NT that Adam transmitted this sin.

    As for inheritting the sin in christianity , again you are ignoring paul's words and the passages he wrote :

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

    Romans 5: 12-13

    peace
    Yes, it does appear that Eve received most of the blame to me as well. IMO, we can see that Islam yields to this Biblical idea from the way women are seen and treated just as the world has treated women with lower pay than men or their work is rejected simply because they are women, but the NT fights against it by saying their is not male or female in Christ Jesus. What does Islam do to show women share equally with men? The man gets 72 virgins in Islam maybe, but what to the women get? Are they the lucky ones who get to be one of 72 virgins for some Muslim man?

    As for inheritting the sin in christianity and my ignoring Paul's words doesn't exist. The passages he wrote needs to be read carefully:
    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law Romans 5: 12-13

    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin. Sin is like a cancer that spreads. It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way. Have you ever caught someone else's cold? Do you blame God for the way He made life and death? Just as sin and death has spread to all men so righteousness through Christ, but we have to meet God on His terms to access it like the children of Israel did during the Passover. They put the blood of the lamb on their door post and so we must put the blood of Christ on our souls or death will claim us for eternity! It is your choice to believe truth or lie. You are free to choose but not from the consequences of your choices.

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Yes, it does appear that Eve received most of the blame to me as well. IMO,

    As for inheritting the sin in christianity and my ignoring Paul's words doesn't exist. The passages he wrote needs to be read carefully:
    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law Romans 5: 12-13

    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin. Sin is like a cancer that spreads. It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way. Have you ever caught someone else's cold?

    Peace
    Again the rules of the blog are clear you are not allowed to divert from the topic and bring up multiple topics in one response

    This section is what actually has a response

    First you said :

    Yes, it does appear that Eve received most of the blame to me as well

    And thats my point

    Then you said :

    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin
    So sin is not inheritted

    Then you say this :
    Sin is like a cancer that spreads
    Ok so it spreads as Paul said and as have I said

    Then you clarify more by contradicting your first statement :

    It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way. Have you ever caught someone else's cold?
    So it is spread to us and we caught it from someone else (our father Adam according to paul) !!!

    we caught something from our father and it spreads throughout generations = inheritting something from our father

    IT IS THE SAME DEFINITION

    Two statements which contradict each other :
    1.
    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin
    2.
    Sin is like a cancer that spreads. It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way
    So How in the world do we have our own sins if the orginal sin spreads from one generation to another ????
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Again the rules of the blog are clear you are not allowed to divert from the topic and bring up multiple topics in one response

    This section is what actually has a response

    First you said :

    Yes, it does appear that Eve received most of the blame to me as well

    And thats my point

    Then you said :

    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin
    So sin is not inheritted

    Then you say this :
    Sin is like a cancer that spreads
    Ok so it spreads as Paul said and as have I said

    Then you clarify more by contradicting your first statement :

    It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way. Have you ever caught someone else's cold?
    So it is spread to us and we caught it from someone else (our father Adam according to paul) !!!

    we caught something from our father and it spreads throughout generations = inheritting something from our father

    IT IS THE SAME DEFINITION

    Two statements which contradict each other :
    1.
    This is not saying we inherited Adam's sin. It says we have our own sin
    2.
    Sin is like a cancer that spreads. It is like someone having a sickness that someone gets. God made life that way
    So How in the world do we have our own sins if the orginal sin spreads from one generation to another ????
    My post was not a contradiction. You cannot gainsay me so you are trying to make it look like I am contradicting myself to make yourself look creditable, but it doesn't work that way.

    We don't inherit someone's cold as you said, and we don't inherit sin as you say I am saying, but we have received a sinful nature that is NOT sin in itself; it is a propensity to sin that is in all human nature, and when we do sin, it is our sin not Adam's sin. You are responsible for your thoughts, words and actions not Adam's!!! It is written, "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through (and only through) Jesus." You have counted yourself unworthy of this gift of God, and that is your choice. End of story.

    Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    My post was not a contradiction. You cannot gainsay me so you are trying to make it look like I am contradicting myself to make yourself look creditable, but it doesn't work that way.

    We don't inherit someone's cold as you said, and we don't inherit sin as you say I am saying, but we have received a sinful nature that is NOT sin in itself; it is a propensity to sin that is in all human nature, and when we do sin, it is our sin not Adam's sin. You are responsible for your thoughts, words and actions not Adam's!!! It is written, "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through (and only through) Jesus." You have counted yourself unworthy of this gift of God, and that is your choice. End of story.

    Peace


    Your statement is contradictory

    since you said we do not inherit but it spreads across generations caught from the older generations is that not actually inheritance ????!!!!!


    Here is the christian interpritation of the passage :

    5:12-14 The design of what follows is plain. It is to exalt our views respecting the blessings Christ has procured for us, by comparing them with the evil which followed upon the fall of our first father; and by showing that these blessings not only extend to the removal of these evils, but far beyond. Adam sinning, his nature became guilty and corrupted, and so came to his children. Thus in him all have sinned. And death is by sin; for death is the wages of sin. Then entered all that misery which is the due desert of sin; temporal, spiritual, eternal death. If Adam had not sinned, he had not died; but a sentence of death was passed, as upon a criminal; it passed through all men, as an infectious disease that none escape. In proof of our union with Adam, and our part in his first transgression, observe, that sin prevailed in the world, for many ages before the giving of the law by Moses. And death reigned in that long time, not only over adults who wilfully sinned, but also over multitudes of infants, which shows that they had fallen in Adam under condemnation, and that the sin of Adam extended to all his posterity. He was a figure or type of Him that was to come as Surety of a new covenant, for all who are related to Him
    Source:Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    I think this speeks for itself

    peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post


    Your statement is contradictory

    since you said we do not inherit but it spreads across generations caught from the older generations is that not actually inheritance ????!!!!!


    Here is the christian interpritation of the passage :

    5:12-14 The design of what follows is plain. It is to exalt our views respecting the blessings Christ has procured for us, by comparing them with the evil which followed upon the fall of our first father; and by showing that these blessings not only extend to the removal of these evils, but far beyond. Adam sinning, his nature became guilty and corrupted, and so came to his children. Thus in him all have sinned. And death is by sin; for death is the wages of sin. Then entered all that misery which is the due desert of sin; temporal, spiritual, eternal death. If Adam had not sinned, he had not died; but a sentence of death was passed, as upon a criminal; it passed through all men, as an infectious disease that none escape. In proof of our union with Adam, and our part in his first transgression, observe, that sin prevailed in the world, for many ages before the giving of the law by Moses. And death reigned in that long time, not only over adults who wilfully sinned, but also over multitudes of infants, which shows that they had fallen in Adam under condemnation, and that the sin of Adam extended to all his posterity. He was a figure or type of Him that was to come as Surety of a new covenant, for all who are related to Him
    Source:Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    I think this speeks for itself

    peace
    Let me ask you a question. In every day life, is it possible to suffer because of what someone else does? For instance, if someone runs a red light, is it possible for someone to be hurt or killed as a result of it? Is it possible for someone to catch someone else's sickness or disease? If you answer yes, hen tell me why does God allow that? You can call it contradiction if you want, but I will not argue the contradiction point your trying to make any further with you, but I'd be interested in hearing your response to my questions.

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Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

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Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran