Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

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Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

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  1. #21
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    And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same.

    So there is no need for your savior then? Jesus who died for our sin !!

    I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them.

    We do not question God, we trust Allah wisdom, and it is with things that befit God almighty, because I know what your response will be then, why not believe God was put on the cross, humiliated, spat on, and killed, because that does not fit his attributes but God is the creator he created jin, human, ants etc it is not our place to question his creations.

    Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for hisn, part in the fall of man.

    I guess when I put him in exception, I knew that most people will understand what I meant but I guess you did not. I meant Iblis destiny is known, which is hell, so he is accountable for his action.


    when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose?

    He was not created as good servant he was a great servant, we do not believe he was an angel he was from Jin, who have free will, and accountability in front of God just like human.

    Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?

    Read the verse I have written from Quran, God said you have no authority over my servants
    (Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65)

    But some human will chose to follow statan’s path instead of God’s Path, do you think they should be rewarded?

    We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created.

    I know what you believe, I have stated that, we do not believe he was Angel, and Angel do not sin.

    That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..

    Yup I agree, so many chose Satan path, even though God’s Path is very clear, and that answer your point above too “Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?”

    We do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family.

    Pandora, how long did Adam peace be upon him lived?? According to your bible 930 years, tell me how many religions, sects etc can start in 100 year? Let alone 930 years. Please stop with twisting the truth so Adam had immediate family only for 930 years!!! So did he have 2 daughters, and two sons, and few animals for 900 years, after that human started multiplying !!!


    Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit...

    Lol of course you do not care about associating partners with God, and you guys get upset when we say you are not monistic religion

    As for the rest of your reply, it actually deserve a new thread to address

  2. #22
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    As already said it is not Adams sin we inherit but the sin nature.. Proof of that is the human condition, as we know no one is sinless (except for the Christ) every sin has a consequence, to ourselves, to those we sin against and to God.

    Christianity teaches that we cannot atone for sin my our own efforts because we can never be as great and as good as God.. God knows this and through His divine mercy and love has given us the means to make ourselves righteous once more




    Father, Son and Holy Spirit are essentially equal.. As they are all divine in nature. However, in the grand plan of redemption, they play certain roles, and these roles define authority and subservience. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Father is greater than I... Jesus commanded the Holy Spirit as he promised he would send the Spirit (comforter, advocate) in His name to guide the disciples. The father is supreme and neither the son (Word) or Spirit act contrary to Gods will.



    ***12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15 12:15 ***

    ***“We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” John 4:13-18***

    peace unto you.

    I realize now that we are in a place were you could ignore somebody's respponse and simply state something that is repeated

    The idea of inheritting sin nature is obscured , the text clearly contradicts it:


    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    Romans 5: 12-14

    14 clealry states that even those who were not sinful inherited the sin even at the time of moses peace be upon him the expression : Death in Adam , Life in Jesus




    As for what you said about man cannot be forgiven by just repenting this contradicts the bible itself:
    9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
    10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
    Jonah 3: 9-10

    the repentence of David WHICH CLEARLY DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF AN ACTUAL SACRIFICE FOR A REPENTECE:

    15O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise. 16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise

    Psalms 51: 15-17


    As for following jesus : first Jesus never ever in the bible said anything about trinity your explanation is a claim only equil to the claims OF HINDUS AND TRINITARIAN PAGANS IN ANCIENT ROME AND EGYPT it is a complete pagan idea . or else why is it not there????
    I you claim that trinity is monotheism then hundus would become monotheist , they believe in 33 million gods manafestation of the supreme god , 33 million !!!!

    We are the true followers of jesus , although he never mentioned or reffered to trinity as quoted in the gospels he preached for the one god only:

    24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." 25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

    Jesus reafirms here that he is sent from god ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ASKED WHO HE IS So we are the followers of the prophet jesus peace be upon him NOT YOU .

    I will answer the so called prophecies about crusifiction in a seperate post

    peace



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post

    There are over 30 prophecies concerning the Crucifixion in the Old Testament alone to include a few


    in Genesis Chapters 3


    It is recorded in Genesis 3:14-15, "So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."


    Genesis Chapters 5


    "Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the Blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort."


    In Psalm 22 there are many verses which clearly look forward to the Crucifixion.... As there is also in Isaiah 52


    Isaiah 53


    3: "He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. …..he was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


    4: Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows


    5: But He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.


    6: the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.


    7: He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth


    9: And they made His grave with the wicked - but with the rich at His death

    11: for He shall bear their iniquities.


    12: because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

    Jesus Himself said... "He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it. Mark 9 30:32

    And also ..

    Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life". Matthew 20 17:19



    peace unto you.
    The first has nothing to do with crusifiction, it is talking about a punishment to Adam and to eve and the serpent:

    14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    This is talking about Adam and eve . In retorical manner it is talking about ALL of men and ALL of women

    When was the head of the serpent bashed????

    As for genesis chapter 5 it looks to me that you have copied and pasted this from some internet source without differentiating between the actual passages in the bible and the interpritation of the writer.
    THIS PASSAGE DOES NOT EXIST IN GENESIS 5 , READ YOUR OWN BOOK CAREFULLY :
    GENESIS 5: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...05&version=KJV

    No prophecy of crusiction in psalms 22 only the statemnt god why have you forsaken me used by david , which is a statement used in :

    22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
    this itself does not prove crusifiction rather it proves that christians and jews picture jesus and david peace be upon them as two men abandoned by god!!!!!

    As for Isaih 53 , Isaiah 53 is a continuation of 52 where the ones talking here are the gentile kings reffering to israel as a singular NOT THE MESSIAH , describing its sorrows , grief , torture and son on
    This text contains however many manipulations to dellude such a matter , For example :

    the text in isiaih 9 says in his death , in the hebrew language it is translated as in his deaths (plural ). Did jesus die many deaths??? or just one according to you !!!!

    Another example , in verse 10 it says :
    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    The word seed here in both the KJB and the original hebrew refers to a biological son BUT jesus did not have a son !!!

    So this text is reffering to israel as a whole in the tongue of gentile kings , this is how jews interperated it and this is what jews told christians within their debates:

    I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned (i.e. Rabbis) I used these prophecies. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes. In this way he explained the text: "Your form shall be inglorious among men" and "those to whom he was not proclaimed shall see him" and "being a man in calamity"


    origen the church father in his debates with jews


    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex2/chapter17.html



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  4. #24
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    Jazak Allah khair brother Muhmmad, I think your reply to the verses of so called
    "prophecy of Crucifixion" deserve a new thread.

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    [QUOTE=huria;600986]And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same.

    Quote
    So there is no need for your savior then? Jesus who died for our sin !!
    yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin.. I guess that's why some muslims believe they go to hell first??? Obviously, as a Christian I'm going to have to go with Jesus on this one.. I don't believe he was lying when He said He is the only way to the Father. You take your own choice in this life, and we only get one chance at it.

    I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them.

    Quote
    We do not question God, we trust Allah wisdom, and it is with things that befit God almighty, because I know what your response will be then, why not believe God was put on the cross, humiliated, spat on, and killed, because that does not fit his attributes but God is the creator he created jin, human, ants etc it is not our place to question his creations.
    you may not question Allah.. But you do question God..YHWH. You doubt His word .. Jesus.. God decides His attributes, not us.

    Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for hisn, part in the fall of man.

    Quote
    I guess when I put him in exception, I knew that most people will understand what I meant but I guess you did not. I meant Iblis destiny is known, which is hell, so he is accountable for his action.
    Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God. All sin bar none comes down to the same thing.. Disobedience against God.. That if you like you can term as the "original sin". We are not born in this state, but as sin was introduced into the world then we are all born with the capacity within us to disobey God. Which we do every day we sin.

    when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose?

    Quote
    He was not created as good servant he was a great servant, we do not believe he was an angel he was from Jin, who have free will, and accountability in front of God just like human.
    do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

    Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?

    Quote
    Read the verse I have written from Quran, God said you have no authority over my servants
    (Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65)

    But some human will chose to follow statan’s path instead of God’s Path, do you think they should be rewarded?
    Very funny ... not.. Many follow satan's path without even realising they are on it..!! He is not called the greatest deceiver and the father of lies for nothing.

    We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created.

    Quote
    I know what you believe, I have stated that, we do not believe he was Angel, and Angel do not sin.
    differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

    That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..

    Quote
    Yup I agree, so many chose Satan path, even though God’s Path is very clear, and that answer your point above too “Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?”
    that is a big question which may be better served another time. Of course we know God is omniscient and surely did know that satan would disobey and would also be the cause of mankind's fall. We also know that God is omnipotent and nothing happens by chance but only according to His will. The Bibles teachings is clear on this matter.. But as I said maybe better for another thread.

    We do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family.

    Quote
    Pandora, how long did Adam peace be upon him lived?? According to your bible 930 years, tell me how many religions, sects etc can start in 100 year? Let alone 930 years. Please stop with twisting the truth so Adam had immediate family only for 930 years!!! So did he have 2 daughters, and two sons, and few animals for 900 years, after that human started multiplying !!!
    lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.. The lesson we take from Adam is how much we need God... Not how much God needs us.. And our worship. God exists weather we offer worship or not. It's to understand that following false gods is meaningless as only the ONE true God who has the power over all creation is worthy of worship. The messenger is not as important as the message.


    Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit...

    Quote
    Lol of course you do not care about associating partners with God, and you guys get upset when we say you are not monistic religion
    double lol... Please don't think your misunderstanding of Christianity as a monotheistic religion upsets us any.. It doesn't. God in Christianity has no partners He is absolute in His glory, His Word and His Spirit.

    Quote
    As for the rest of your reply, it actually deserve a new thread to address

    as you wish... Don't go take too much trouble on my account.

    Peace unto you.

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post
    Jazak Allah khair brother Muhmmad, I think your reply to the verses of so called
    "prophecy of Crucifixion" deserve a new thread.
    Huria, I would go as far as to say the brothers reply is deserving of a new thread. However, if it is felt a new thread would better serve the topic then go ahead and make one.

    In regards to the brothers replies, which I do have some issues with.. in order to give them worthy consideration I will reply when I have given it more time, as on first reading it seems rather disjointed and I want to be sure I understand what the brother is saying here. I find his shouting... (Constant use of upper case letters) off putting.. Sorry it has to be said.

    Peace unto you

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    yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin..

    wishy washytalk as always, answer direct what is the point of your savior dying on the cross for the sin?? What sin is he dying for??

    We say it is Adam original sin?? They say no we do not inherit sin
    So tell me Pandora are babies born sinless in your believe ? please answer direct once

    Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God.

    Why do you enjoy twisting the words, where did I say God made him this way??
    I said he chose that way, he has free will he worshiped God, then he refused to obey God, so you think God has to reward him???

    Do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

    I do not twist your words, that is your job. Good or great, same thing he is just God creation, he chose to be good for certain time but after Adam’s creation he disobeyed God. Jinn like human have free will, and are accountable before God. So God did not chose his path he did it himself, been good before does not guarantee you eternal life forever.

    differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

    We do not believe that, why would angel’s sin be worse?? or no chance of redemption? Please think that through, so they have free will just like us, and God would forgive us but not them!!! Is that just?

    As I said Islam teaches that Iblis was from Jinn who have free well, and difference between his sin and of Adam’s that Adam (pbuh) after committing a mistake (Eating the forbidden fruit), repented.

    They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." [Surat Al-'A`rāf 7:23]

    And Allah accepts his repentence.

    Qur'an 2:37 :Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

    And Indeed, If Iblees had repented after committing the mistake, Allah would have forgiven him.

    Qur'an 5:39 :But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.

    Lol indeed, you see the difference between us and Christians, we believe what the Quran tell us. For you might just think it is another bible story, so you can’t gasp that 1000 years, and I did not say people started pagan worship, but he lived nearly 1000 years, and he was guidance to his children. The Quran does not tell us what happened in 1000 years but we can see what happen to people, that why they need a messenger after a messenger. After Jesus followers died, a new religion emerged and claimed to be from Jesus peace be upon him.

    We are the son of Adam all of us, and if one of us is in the wrong path, it has nothing to do with him that what he was sent to teach people, as I wrote in summary the difference between us in this story

    The whole story of Adam and Eve in the Quran clearly teaches us the that humans have freedom of will, responsibility for their choice of action and the consequent accountability before God. God says in the Quran: “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    Huria, I would go as far as to say the brothers reply is deserving of a new thread. However, if it is felt a new thread would better serve the topic then go ahead and make one.

    In regards to the brothers replies, which I do have some issues with.. in order to give them worthy consideration I will reply when I have given it more time, as on first reading it seems rather disjointed and I want to be sure I understand what the brother is saying here. I find his shouting... (Constant use of upper case letters) off putting.. Sorry it has to be said.

    Peace unto you

    With respect to big letters I have already explained the reason and purpose of that in a different subject. As for my answer being disjointed, I think you should reconsider such a statement since your previous response of prophecies shows huge mistakes and evidence of copying and pasting from christian websites. I am trying to be polite here but the fact is that you obviously have not read the old testament especially genesis nor have you read the context and history of the book of Isiaih or you would not have included such misunderstanding and mistakes in your previous response

    peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    [QUOTE=huria;601031]yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin..

    Quote
    wishy washytalk as always, answer direct what is the point of your savior dying on the cross for the sin?? What sin is he dying for??
    wishy washy talk!!! Indeed. I tried to make it simple for you.. The Bible teaches that every human being has sinned. To sin is anything that is against Gods Holy Character. We all deserve judgement.. And because God is just He cannot allow sin to go unpunished, as God is eternal then also any sin against Him is also eternal.. Which follows a deserving punishment must be eternal. That punishment is eternal death. That is why we accept Jesus as our Saviour..because as Gods will His perfect sacrifice in His eternal word made flesh... Jesus. Thus we do not suffer eternal death and separation from God. You really should not mock what you do not understand. I am trying to explain why a Christian accepts Jesus as Saviour. You feel you don't need a saviour.. Where's the problem?

    Quote
    We say it is Adam original sin?? They say no we do not inherit sin
    So tell me Pandora are babies born sinless in your believe ? please answer direct once
    Yes babies are sinless. As they have committed no sin.
    Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God.

    Quote
    Why do you enjoy twisting the words, where did I say God made him this way??
    I said he chose that way, he has free will he worshiped God, then he refused to obey God, so you think God has to reward him???
    maybe the fault is mine that I possibly misunderstood your reply.. Maybe you are not as clear as you think you are.. And assume a level of knowledge about Islam in me that you have yourself. Which obviously is not the case. I have read the Quran.. In fact I have checked a few things today... However.. I am not a Muslim and do not have an army of Islamic scholars at my call to assist me the better. If I misunderstand something I read in the Quran then by all means correct me. I am trying to do the same with your misconceptions about Christianity. But... You are not interested in any points I make except to ridicule or attempt to prove in error... From your perspective. Then I see no point in dialogue because neither of us will gain anything useful.

    Do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

    Quote
    I do not twist your words, that is your job. Good or great, same thing he is just God creation, he chose to be good for certain time but after Adam’s creation he disobeyed God. Jinn like human have free will, and are accountable before God. So God did not chose his path he did it himself, been good before does not guarantee you eternal life forever.
    we obviously have widely different views on angels and Satan.. Which is odd if we are to accept that out respective scriptures are from the same God. Why was jinn not mentioned in the Bible? Every part of Gods glorious creation is recorded but no mention of jinn.. That's why I don't know anything about jinn or understand their purpose, you could have taken the time to constructively explain this..

    differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

    Quote
    We do not believe that, why would angel’s sin be worse?? or no chance of redemption? Please think that through, so they have free will just like us, and God would forgive us but not them!!! Is that just?
    i know you don't believe that! As I believe in the Bible then I do and it makes sense why if you understand how angels are portrayed in the Bible. The angels elect stayed with God and continue to do His will, the fallen reside with Satan and do his will. Consider that God created angels higher than man and therefore angels have a greater understanding of God than we do. Therefore.. For them to disobey God has a greater implication. They had choice they chose satan over God.. They condemned themselves.

    Quote
    As I said Islam teaches that Iblis was from Jinn who have free well, and difference between his sin and of Adam’s that Adam (pbuh) after committing a mistake (Eating the forbidden fruit), repented.

    They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." [Surat Al-'A`rf 7:23]

    And Allah accepts his repentence.

    Qur'an 2:37 :Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

    And Indeed, If Iblees had repented after committing the mistake, Allah would have forgiven him.

    Qur'an 5:39 :But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
    That's why I looked up the Quran today because this what you say of Iblis being a jinn and not an angel... I remembered something and it puzzled me, you can I expect explain.. This sura..
    2:34

    Sahih International
    And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
    Sorry about the tiny font I copied and pasted... From http://quran.com/2/34

    my understanding here is God telling the ANGELS to prostrate before Adam.. Yet Iblees refused.. Does that not seem to include Iblees as part of the Angels? Why does it not say the angels and Iblees? Thereby implying Iblees was different from the angels.

    And what on earth do you mean by "mistake" !!! The sin of disobedience against a Holy God can hardly be classed as a mere mistake. Do you view some sins as mistakes!!

    lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.

    Quote
    Lol indeed, you see the difference between us and Christians, we believe what the Quran tell us. For you might just think it is another bible story, so you can’t gasp that 1000 years, and I did not say people started pagan worship, but he lived nearly 1000 years, and he was guidance to his children. The Quran does not tell us what happened in 1000 years but we can see what happen to people, that why they need a messenger after a messenger. After Jesus followers died, a new religion emerged and claimed to be from Jesus peace be upon him.
    Sorry but this rather flippant reply does nothing to further understanding. Unlike the Quran the Bible does tell us what happened in the intervening years.. Are you referring to Islam as the new religion.. Because for sure it has nothing of the teachings if Jesus? And it is as different from the previous revelation as could be.. You do not mention how long after the "followers" died this occurred. By followers I take it to mean disciples.. What of the thousands of followers that followed them? Did they all just disappear????

    Quote
    We are the son of Adam all of us, and if one of us is in the wrong path, it has nothing to do with him that what he was sent to teach people, as I wrote in summary the difference between us in this story

    The whole story of Adam and Eve in the Quran clearly teaches us the that humans have freedom of will, responsibility for their choice of action and the consequent accountability before God. God says in the Quran: “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

    the Bible also teaches we have freedom of will, and are responsible for our choices. Where it differs is the importance it places on sin and it's eternal consequences for us, the chasm that sin creates between us and God is far wider and deeper than we can breach alone and for that we were given a Saviour. God has to be just as He is merciful and above all God is love.

    Peace unto you...

    don't know why the font has changed to tiny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    With respect to big letters I have already explained the reason and purpose of that in a different subject. As for my answer being disjointed, I think you should reconsider such a statement since your previous response of prophecies shows huge mistakes and evidence of copying and pasting from christian websites. I am trying to be polite here but the fact is that you obviously have not read the old testament especially genesis nor have you read the context and history of the book of Isiaih or you would not have included such misunderstanding and mistakes in your previous response

    peace
    Apologies I missed that explanation. It does seem disjointed and that's why I need to read it carefully. As I don't have the facility to post directly on this forum or even edit my posts for errors as other muslims members have, I have to wait till my post appears on the forum, there have been many times it is not as I had wished but am at that point unable to effect any change. I see in my post the bits I copied there was a table of facts which did not copy successfully.. This could be to do with the device I use an iPad rather than PC.. Some functionality is lost.

    I will ignore your last comment.. In regards to my lack of knowledge on the OT. You make a great many mistakes yourself, so I don't think it polite or useful in pointing out the imperfections of others. I try my best to explain to the best of my ability and with honesty. I am not a theologian but an ordinary Christian woman. If that's not good enough for you then we have no further need to converse and I hope you find someone who's intellect matches your own.

    Peace unto you.

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Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran