the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

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شبكة الفرقان الإسلامية شبكة سبيل الإسلام شبكة كلمة سواء الدعوية منتديات حراس العقيدة
البشارة الإسلامية منتديات طريق الإيمان منتدى التوحيد مكتبة المهتدون
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غرفة الحوار الإسلامي المسيحي مكافح الشبهات شبكة الحقيقة الإسلامية موقع الدعوة الإسلامية
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the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    That is not the most important principal of Christianity. The death of Christ, His shed blood for our sin, and His resurrection from the dead are the most important principles along with salvation by God's grace through faith. This is the gift from God that we can only access by believing Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and the son of God who gave Himself for our redemption, and that there is no other way to receive eternal life, paradise or heaven. Without believing and accepting this gospel people will die in their sin unless they believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him as Jesus Himself said!
    As for the trinity, the Bible doesn't tell us that we should teach on it. God has personally shown me He is a trinity by bearing witness with my spirit, but that wasn't something I was told to teach or try to figure out with my own understanding. All Christians know is that in the beginning was the word who was with God and was God, Jn. 1. And we know that God is Spirit and He is Holy. The Holy Spirit is God. No Christian can explain how God's Word and Holiness could be one and yet distinct persons of God's tri-unity. It is a waste of time debating this. As I mentioned, you cannot explain God's oneness anymore than I can explain the trinity. The other point I tried to make is that Muslims bring up the trinity more than Christians to argue against Christianity, but this tragedy fails miserably. Basically, your write up on the trinity took us no where, and in my opinion, as a once JW that you were, you went from the fryer into the fire. Finally, your write up is puffed up head knowledge that profits you nothing spiritually or anyone else in the things of God. I tell you in love and truth the way God shows it to me.

    Peace.
    Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
    BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

    ​peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ً
    [SIZE=5]First : your scriptures are considered corrupt by us so we do not believe in it entirely
    Your Scriptures are corrupted to us as well; so, are we to believe God wouldn't preserve His torah and gospel so he could bring a message to confirm that actually contradicts the torah and gospel we now have? Are we to accept Biblical corruption when no Muslim can say when and where this corruption took place, by whom and what was the motive was? We can tell you when the Quran was burned and by whom; we can tell you that Uthman used the help of text to recompile the destroyed Qurans, and afterwards, the text Uthman used to recompile the Quran was destroyed; so, how do you figure that is perfect preservation of the Quran? IMHO, this logic is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I cannot do it, because my spirit, soul, mind and better judgment will not let me. I cannot throw godly wisdom, human logic and reason out the window.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ً
    [SIZE=5]Second : The arabian society were illiterate at the time of the prophet, There only method of transporting news or announcing anything was threw poetry and arabic speeches , these were most of the times how tribes annouced. comminicated, declared, and even sometimes competed with each other
    The point is communication happened and news spread faster than you think. It cannot be ruled out that Islam's prophet heard the virgin birth story that was already in print before his birth. Monotheism, Heaven and hell, and the virgin birth of Jesus was already known before your prophet's birth; so, nothing new was brought to Christianity other than what we already knew.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ً
    [SIZE=5]Third : the verse was a response to the meccans who accused the prophet of writting these revelations and reading them from other scriptures , So the quran responded to such nonsense by stating the fact which they already knew that he was illeterate , so there was no way that he could have read other scriptures and wrote it down
    You say nonsense, but that is your opinion. The virgin birth story of Jesus is only found in the NT Bible. Had Islam's prophet said Jesus was not born of a virgin, he could've have had a stronger argument that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but now Muslims have to deal with why Jesus was born in an unconventional human manner. There is a reason for it, and the source of the virgin birth story has the reason that will burn through the souls of those who reject it. You spirit must know this and yet you resist. Why???
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ً
    [SIZE=5]Fourth : I don't think we can question god about what he should or should not have done. God could have chosen an egyptian as a prophet to Pharoh instead of a man from a nation of slaves at that time, God could just chosen David before Saul, God could have made the israelites enter the holy land under moses peace be upon him instead of Joshua peace be upon him
    You are correct, but we can question the Quran and the source of it, because we are commanded by God the test very spirit and not believe them all. Islam doesn't pass the test for the Jew or born again Biblical Christian. There is a reason for that, but you don't know or understand why.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ً
    Fifth : We do not worship Jesus peace be upon him or the holy ghost they are both created by God . The fact that you believe in trinity makes you DIVERGENT FROM THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT , JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM AND THE QURAN

    TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels
    You don't worship Jesus because you don't know who He is. We do, and we know that Jesus healed everyone He came in contact with and people worshipped Him when He forgave sin and healed the lame and the blind. Jesus never stopped them from worshipping Him. God doesn't allow anyone other than himself to share His glory. Jesus said, you will die in sin unless you believe I am He. We believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him. good luck trying to get to god by human effort and understanding because it has already been condemned by God. You can say that is a corruption in the Bible but I

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
    BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

    peace
    That is not true. In the beginning was the Word. The word was with God and the word was God. Think about that. Jesus is the word of God incarnate. Even the Quran says He is a word from Allah. If he didn't come in flesh and blood, what did He come in? The Bible states that God is Spirit and we know He is Holy. Jesus said, I will go, but the Holy Spirit will come. Moreover, when disciples of Jesus lied to the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts, the disciples said to the ones that lied. "You have lied to God" They dropped dead on the spot. The spirit of God descended on Jesus at His baptism. Jesus said go and baptize in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. There is lots of evidence of God's tri unity. But explain God's oneness now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
    BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

    ​peace
    Definition of divine (adj)

    Dictionary
    di·vine
    [ di vī́n ]
    1.having godlike nature: being God or a god or goddess
    2.relating to God, gods, or goddesses: connected with, coming from, or caused by God or a god or goddess
    3.connected with worship: relating to the worship or service of God or a god or goddess

    synonyms: heavenly · celestial · godly · deific · godlike

    It means God, even God calls Jesus "God" Heb. 1. Twist it all you like, but know that it doesn't convince Christians who know Jesus, and it is only to the peril of you soul that you try to make our Scripture say what you want to be is true about Islam..

    Peace

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Your Scriptures are corrupted to us as well; so, are we to believe God wouldn't preserve His torah and gospel so he could bring a message to confirm that actually contradicts the torah and gospel we now have? Are we to accept Biblical corruption when no Muslim can say when and where this corruption took place, by whom and what was the motive was? We can tell you when the Quran was burned and by whom; we can tell you that Uthman used the help of text to recompile the destroyed Qurans, and afterwards, the text Uthman used to recompile the Quran was destroyed; so, how do you figure that is perfect preservation of the Quran? IMHO, this logic is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I cannot do it, because my spirit, soul, mind and better judgment will not let me. I cannot throw godly wisdom, human logic and reason out the window.

    The point is communication happened and news spread faster than you think. It cannot be ruled out that Islam's prophet heard the virgin birth story that was already in print before his birth. Monotheism, Heaven and hell, and the virgin birth of Jesus was already known before your prophet's birth; so, nothing new was brought to Christianity other than what we already knew.

    You say nonsense, but that is your opinion. The virgin birth story of Jesus is only found in the NT Bible. Had Islam's prophet said Jesus was not born of a virgin, he could've have had a stronger argument that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but now Muslims have to deal with why Jesus was born in an unconventional human manner. There is a reason for it, and the source of the virgin birth story has the reason that will burn through the souls of those who reject it. You spirit must know this and yet you resist. Why???
    You are correct, but we can question the Quran and the source of it, because we are commanded by God the test very spirit and not believe them all. Islam doesn't pass the test for the Jew or born again Biblical Christian. There is a reason for that, but you don't know or understand why.
    You don't worship Jesus because you don't know who He is. We do, and we know that Jesus healed everyone He came in contact with and people worshipped Him when He forgave sin and healed the lame and the blind. Jesus never stopped them from worshipping Him. God doesn't allow anyone other than himself to share His glory. Jesus said, you will die in sin unless you believe I am He. We believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him. good luck trying to get to god by human effort and understanding because it has already been condemned by God. You can say that is a corruption in the Bible but I

    First I already showed you examples of the corruption of the bible . As for the Quran we already had this debate and I showed you how wrong you were . Yet you did not answer and chose to ignore and repeat again. Here review response number 17 : Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran
    This response within my dialogue with pandora . If you were to ask me to prove that jesus is not god and I quoted the Quran would you believe, you would say no because it is not your resource , this is what Pandora and you are doing , your logic is for me to accept the bible no matter what whther I am christian or not and accept even though it was manipulated this is a twisted "I do not believe in common sense" logic.

    Second heaven , hell , and monotheism was already know before the birth of Jesus . so I could apply the same argument but at least jews do not belief in the concept of the father , the son , the holy spirit and so do muslims .

    Third believe me islam passes the test successfully unlike your bible , why is it till now you could not prove that the bible was not manipulated !!!! As for the virgin birth well the virgin birth was known to other sects of christians also using different gospels however , We never claimed that the gospels were replaced fully rather we say they were manipulated meaning altered . In the english language this means changing sentences , adding and removing passages and so on .

    Fourth thats right we do not worship jesus we worship the god of jesus which jesus preached for.

    None of your responses has to do with my discussion nor does it relate to the sections which you quoted , try having an actual answer instead of cherry picking and stating and trying to sweet talk your own beliefs

    peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    That is not true. In the beginning was the Word. The word was with God and the word was God. Think about that. Jesus is the word of God incarnate. Even the Quran says He is a word from Allah. If he didn't come in flesh and blood, what did He come in? The Bible states that God is Spirit and we know He is Holy. Jesus said, I will go, but the Holy Spirit will come. Moreover, when disciples of Jesus lied to the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts, the disciples said to the ones that lied. "You have lied to God" They dropped dead on the spot. The spirit of God descended on Jesus at His baptism. Jesus said go and baptize in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. There is lots of evidence of God's tri unity. But explain God's oneness now.
    ِAs for the quran , your understanding of the word of god is different than ours . The word of god in Islam means a refference to the word be which god said to create jesus in the womb of his mother and the same word which was used to create Adam :

    Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.Quran 3: 59

    So he did come in flesh and blood as Adam did

    As for the passage of
    Ananias and Sapphira it does not show that the holy spirit is god !!!! you are twisting the context :

    1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."…

    No way in the context does it say that holy spirit is god , rather the holy spirit because it was with them from the time of jesus , also this context shows that he lied to god for his stealing. The lying to the holy ghost meant lying to the holy ghost within peter and the deciples (in other words to them ):





    "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

    The part about not lying to men means that ultimately you are lying to god

    peace


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    ِAs for the quran , your understanding of the word of god is different than ours . The word of god in Islam means a refference to the word be which god said to create jesus in the womb of his mother and the same word which was used to create Adam :

    Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.Quran 3: 59

    So he did come in flesh and blood as Adam did

    As for the passage of
    Ananias and Sapphira it does not show that the holy spirit is god !!!! you are twisting the context :

    1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."…

    No way in the context does it say that holy spirit is god , rather the holy spirit because it was with them from the time of jesus , also this context shows that he lied to god for his stealing. The lying to the holy ghost meant lying to the holy ghost within peter and the deciples (in other words to them ):





    "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

    The part about not lying to men means that ultimately you are lying to god

    peace


    God is spirit and He is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. That verse says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God. You don't understand Christianity and the disciples intentions and understanding we do because we are the people of the Book. you are not and don't understand. Yes, the Quran says Jesus is the word be, but this make a argument for Jesus being the I am He claimed to be just as God told Moses I am that I am. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" Did you not know and hasn't it been told to you from the beginning that I am is a form of Be? Jesus is the word "Be" God use to create all things. The word of God is uncreated and eternal. This is where you error not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. The Bible is not corrupted as you would have us believe. Even the Quran proves it. You infer from it whast you want to believe; therefore I can do the same.

    Sura 3:3 says:



    He has sent down upon thee the Book with truth,
    confirming what was before it,
    and he sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime. [Arberry]

    The parallel statement in regard to this "sending down" is captured even better in Pickthall's translation which reads:



    He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth
    confirming that which was (revealed) before it,
    EVEN AS He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

    "Even as" = "in just the same way." The Arabic itself doesn't say "just as" but it makes the exact same statement about both, and has no hint that it should be understood in a different way. Furthermore have a look at Sura 4:47, stating:

    You who have been given the Book,
    believe in what We have sent down,
    confirming what _IS_ with you. [Arberry]
    O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given!
    Believe in what We have revealed
    confirming THAT WHICH YE POSSESS. [Pickthall]

    Can anyone really be justified in saying that the Qur'an does not speak about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians which they have in their possession at the time of Muhammad but about some other "scriptural entity" which we really can't know what it is or was, ...?? You Muslims make the claim that it is certainly NOT speaking about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they are today, even though there is no doubt that they are the same as what the Jews and Christians had in the 7th century. [The New Testament is today translated from manuscripts that date 250 years before Muhammad]. The onus is on you along with the burden of proof that the Scriptures we have today aren't the same as during your prophet's life time and before; moreover, the burden of proof is on you to show how, when, where, and why the Scripture were corrupted and why God chose not to preserve what he promised would be established forever and what Allah commanded we stand on as people of the Book. How can you say you have something better to offer us people of the Book?

    Peace

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    God is spirit and He is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. That verse says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God. You don't understand Christianity and the disciples intentions and understanding we do because we are the people of the Book. you are not and don't understand. Yes, the Quran says Jesus is the word be, but this make a argument for Jesus being the I am He claimed to be just as God told Moses I am that I am. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" Did you not know and hasn't it been told to you from the beginning that I am is a form of Be? Jesus is the word "Be" God use to create all things. The word of God is uncreated and eternal. This is where you error not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. The Bible is not corrupted as you would have us believe. Even the Quran proves it. You infer from it whast you want to believe; therefore I can do the same.

    Sura 3:3 says:



    He has sent down upon thee the Book with truth,
    confirming what was before it,
    and he sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime. [Arberry]

    The parallel statement in regard to this "sending down" is captured even better in Pickthall's translation which reads:



    He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth
    confirming that which was (revealed) before it,
    EVEN AS He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

    "Even as" = "in just the same way." The Arabic itself doesn't say "just as" but it makes the exact same statement about both, and has no hint that it should be understood in a different way. Furthermore have a look at Sura 4:47, stating:

    You who have been given the Book,
    believe in what We have sent down,
    confirming what _IS_ with you. [Arberry]
    O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given!
    Believe in what We have revealed
    confirming THAT WHICH YE POSSESS. [Pickthall]

    Can anyone really be justified in saying that the Qur'an does not speak about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians which they have in their possession at the time of Muhammad but about some other "scriptural entity" which we really can't know what it is or was, ...?? You Muslims make the claim that it is certainly NOT speaking about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they are today, even though there is no doubt that they are the same as what the Jews and Christians had in the 7th century. [The New Testament is today translated from manuscripts that date 250 years before Muhammad]. The onus is on you along with the burden of proof that the Scriptures we have today aren't the same as during your prophet's life time and before; moreover, the burden of proof is on you to show how, when, where, and why the Scripture were corrupted and why God chose not to preserve what he promised would be established forever and what Allah commanded we stand on as people of the Book. How can you say you have something better to offer us people of the Book?

    Peace
    You do not understand christianity so I am not surprised when you make such huge mistakes with the Quran

    The actual translation of Quran 3: 3 is :

    He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.



    No even as here , Picktalls own view does not matter since this Even as is does not go with the Arabic context nor its meaning . و انزل not كما انزل

    However even if it says what you are claiming it would not change anything since this verse is talking about the uncorrupted scriptures and I have already stated this before but you as usual chose to ignore

    Sura 4: 47 You stripped it from its context probably because you copied and pasted it from others , here is verses 46 -47 in their right translation :
    46 Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.47 O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

    The tafseer:(ibn katheer's tafseer) verse 46:

    (there are some who displace words from (their) right places) meaning, they intentionally and falsely alter the meanings of the Words of Allah and explain them in a different manner than what Allah meant,

    And say: "We hear your word and disobey) saying, "We hear what you say, O Muhammad, but we do not obey you in it,'' as Mujahid and Ibn Zayd explained. This is the implied meaning of the Ayah, and it demonstrates the Jews' disbelief, stubbornness and disregard for Allah's Book after they understood it, all the while aware of the sin and punishment that this behavior will earn for them. Allah's statement


    Tafseer ibn katheer verse 47:

    Allah commands the People of the Scriptures to believe in what He has sent down to His servant and Messenger, Muhammad ,



    Your understanding is again like pandora based upon the misunderstanding between

    manipulation and replacement. We do not say that all the bible was corrupted (replaced) or

    you would not have similarities with us like the story of Moses rather there has been many

    manipulation to the original text but some of it still exist one was the prophets name in

    some of its original state


    AS for your first answer :

    You have again proved to me that you lack serious knowledge about islamic beliefs , you

    apply christian standards to islamic texts which is clearly ridicolous. The word be which

    god used in the Quran was not the same word he used to create jesus , I already explained

    this but you applied your understanding of John 1 on the islamic tafseer and the passage

    when I infact was not talking about John 1 rather showing the difference between the our

    beliefs when it comes to the understanding of the word of god .

    His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

    Surah Yasin verse 82


    Also god describes the creation of jesus as the creation of Adam by the word be :


    Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.


    ِAl imran verse 59


    This explains the word reffered to in this verse :
    O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

    ِAl nisa verse 171

    So the word of god from islamic understanding means the word be that was sent down to create jesus in the womb of mary just like the word be which god said when he created Adam

    Tafseer of verse 171:

    (Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from ﴿created by﴾ Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril.

    Source : tafseer ibn katheer

    As for finally what you said about the spirit in the passage I quoted again you are just

    clearly throwing blunt acussations without actually answering , what you are saying is that

    God is the holy ghost because god is the holy ghost !!!!!

    You still failed to answer that the man lied to the deciples and the reply was that he lied to

    the holy ghost with agreement to this passage here :




    Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

    So this actually does not prove trinity at all


    The OT is clear against any kind of trinitarian belief:


    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


    Numbers 23: 19

    This should be enough but misinterpritation is a powerful tool which Satan uses to delude and dissuade people from the truth


    However for the passage before Abraham I am the actual translation of the greek text is actually :


    I have seen Abraham before he was even born

    This actually describes the context much better and is the reasonable answer to the jews at that time :

    56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"


    peace

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    You are actually telling me I don't understand Christianity. LOL. I am a Christian. What are you talking about? When I read that, it tells me you don't know what you talking about. I am not trying to prove God's tri unity to anybody on this forum. You are trying to force me into discussing God's essence when you don't know what it is yourself. Since you are so down on the trinity explain God's absolute oneness. This is a comment of mine you continually ignore along with not explaining what three is Allah saying to desist from saying. Is it the son, mother and father as he alludes to or the father, son and Holy Spirit or is it the son, Mary and Allah as the third person.

    One can intelligently infer that Allah didn't mean the father, son and Holy Spirit. You know more about the Christian trinity than your god and prophet knew in the 7th century, and you are telling me I don't understand Islam much less Christianity??? This is laughable to me. Did not Allah say they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three? Who considered Allah the third of three or the third person of the three. Please don't try and use semantics by saying he meant a third because that would be insulting to anyone's intelligence (he said "the third" not a third; besides, no Christian believes God comes in thirds or that Jesus was a freak of half God and half man, LOL).

    To be a Muslim one has to jump through to many hoops and loops IMO. You quoted: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22) and you said, "So this actually does not prove trinity at all" I never claimed this proves the trinity, but it does prove God is Jesus' father, and you deny it, and deny that Jesus is the son of God even after you know God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. If you could believe that verse and the one you quoted, you would be closer to truth than you are now.

    You don't believe it, and you think you're clever, because you use the lame excuse that the Bible is corrupted. The Quran is not clear on what it means by manipulation and replacement, and of course you don't believe all the Bible is corrupted, because Islam has imperfectly borrowed from it such things as the virgin birth of Jesus (from the NT Bible.)

    So why would anyone want to add a corruption such as Jesus' death and resurrection for our sin in the Bible and risk their lives to preach a tale? I am seeing deception at play and Allah admits he is the best of deceivers and proves it by making something appear to be true that wasn't such as the death of Christ. Why would Allah have to use trickery to save Jesus? Why would he have to do best what the unbelievers were doing (the use of deception, schemes, lies, trickery and all other such things)?

    Besides, I see manipulation and replacement more in what Uthman did to the Quran. Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon supposedly written on golden plates from God and started another religion claiming to be the seal of prophets and confirming that which has come before with a new word to nail truth down for the world and millions follow this false prophet. The warning Jesus gave is clear as crystal. That is to beware of false prophets that were to come after Him, and if we don't heed His words, we are sure to be over taken by them. Satan knows Scripture better than anyone, and he is a master mocker of God, and he is the father of lies. The writing is on the wall my friend.

    peace

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    Also god describes the creation of jesus as the creation of Adam by the word be

    I have seen Abraham before he was even born

    This actually describes the context much better and is the reasonable answer to the jews at that time :

    [/SIZE][/FONT]56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"


    peace

    [/QUOTE]It doesn't describe it much better, because the Jews knew Jesus was saying He was God; that is why they wanted to stone Him for saying what He did. "Before Abraham was I am" is exactly what Jesus said and meant. Jesus has seen all people and prophets including Adam before their creation. The Jews wouldn't have wanted to stone Him for saying I knew Abraham before he was born. You are coming to faulty conclusions.
    Peace

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the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

the Bible VS the holy Qura'n