Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity

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Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity

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Thread: Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity

  1. #61
    pandora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *اسلامي عزي* View Post



    The true God does not order - in any circumstances - the killing of innocent babys !


    in the Bible God does what ever is necessary. He is not a wishy washy God but a strong and all powerful God.. For which anything is possible. As we believe in His mercy, Love and divine justice we do not question His judgement.

    ***"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)***

    In some instances, God ordered the killing of entire populations...which presumably included the killing of babies and children. The Bible teaches that all people are sinners, including babies... Which is not to say they are born with sin already but a sin nature.. As we all are... Which makes everyone worthy of judgment. However.. the Bible also teaches that children are incapable of making moral choices, so that they are automatically rewarded with heaven. So... A kindness in one way if they had grown up corrupted by the adults around them ... opposed to God, they would have gone to hell. As God is omniscient then it would have been clear knowledge and just. The judgement of Sodom comes to mind.

    Quote
    put the text from the OT .please !
    ***"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31***


    ***The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. Psalm 58:3 ***


    ***"and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons. For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you." Deuteronomy 7:4***

    ***Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him. Judges 10:6***

    ***The men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, the men of Cuth made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima, and the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech the gods of Sepharvaim. 2 Kings 17:30-31***

    Is God right to be angered by godless behaviour and sin?? Where is the problem with God dealing with sin according to His divine knowledge and justice? Who are you to say God is not acting with mercy in ordering the deaths of children? You know all there is to God now????



    Quote
    Allah order Muslims to fight and kill only the pagans and the polytheists warriors .
    where is the problem ????
    I have no problem with accepting Gods judgement. It is YOU who are questioning it.. Not I.

    ***I would caution you not to judge God, since it is said, "Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." Romans 2:1***



    Quote
    the answer is NO .

    Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.

    the holy Qura'n 4 : 11

    who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones !

    deut 21 : 17

    But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.


    There you go with your little round of self congratulation again.. For your misinterpretation of biblical scripture. This law restrains men from disinheriting their eldest sons without just cause. The principle in this case as to children, is still binding to parents... they must give children their right without partiality... Seeing as polygamy was not widely practiced and was not favoured by God. The law also applies to children from a previous wife who may have died or divorced. It means the children of this wife cannot be cheated out of their rightful inheritance.

    The Right of the Firstborn
    ***15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father's strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. Deuteronomy 21:15-17 ***


    Quote
    here is the position of the women in Christianity .
    she is like a merchandise !

    Mat 18 : 25

    But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

    Exodus 21 : 7

    And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.



    PEACE ....
    Quote
    Matthew 18:21-35 is a Parable... Read it in context and I hope the meaning will become clear to you...

    ***The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
    21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”


    22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.


    23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.


    26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.


    28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.


    29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’


    30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.


    32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.


    35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”***

    This is not a judgement against women.. Or women being treated as merchandise. However, as you forever do.. Mine quoting snippets of scripture out of context. Are you trying to convince me or yourself by this method? It's not working for me.

    Exodus 21:7-11


    ***7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.***

    ....Not sure why you're asking Christians when this is ancient Judaic law that is no longer in force. Anyway... At that time it wasn't uncommon for poor families to give their children up to slavery. Although Slavery wasn't as bad as we think of it today.. It was more like indenture or servitude. Instead of families letting their children starve or die from sickness, they would send them to be maids or farmers under a Master so that they could receive food, water, shelter, clothing, income, etc.. These "slaves" were treated more like servants or workers contract rather than our definition of slaves.

    This passage is discussing the treament of female "servants" in specific. Women were highly protected under the Jewish law due to the fact that they were highly vulnerable in society. This is why we see so many extra laws of protection revolving around women. If a father gave up his daughter, than the "Master"would have to take on the duties of a father. He was not allowed to sell her to foreigners ...as that could endanger her life... If he was unpleased with her abilities to work, she was simply set free from the contract. He also wasn't able to just get rid of her when her time working was up. The men could simply be let free, because they could find other work easy enough. It was not so easy for women to find work so the "Master" was not allowed to just let her leave, and end up in a life of poverty. Sometimes they would arrange marriages for these women.. Which meant they were guaranteed a level of security and care.
    Once again context is important... And understanding who the law was written for in the first place.. Which wasn't Christians.

    peace to you.

  2. #62
    *اسلامي عزي*'s Avatar
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    He is not a wishy washy God but a strong and all powerful God
    i' do not think so !
    1- the supposed God of the universe can not win a struggle with One of his creatures ????
    Genesis 32 : 26
    2- the supposed God can not defend himself against the Roman soldiers who beat & spit on him !
    Matthew 27:30

    Quote
    Is God right to be angered by godless behaviour and sin?? Where is the problem with God dealing with sin according to His divine knowledge and justice? Who are you to say God is not acting with mercy in ordering the deaths of children? You know all there is to God now????
    Sorry, I do not believe in a butcher who order the killing of babies just to achieve his presumed " justice" !
    I'm not alone who say this .
    the arabic-christian priest named George Khedr shares with me the same opinion !




    Quote
    There you go with your little round of self congratulation again
    i ' repeat again : the applauses are not for me - a self congratulation - !
    they are for the Bible 's texts supporting my point .

    Quote
    they must give children their right without partiality
    .
    The Bible says the opposite !



    the hated woman's firstborn will receive a double portion !



    Quote
    Read it in context and I hope the meaning will become clear to you
    the meaning is clear like the mud

    Quote
    Although Slavery wasn't as bad as we think of it today.. It was more like indenture or servitude
    .
    again :

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my
    lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    Romans 3 : 7

    read this please :

    Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
    the slave =
    1 -A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.

    KJV Dictionary Definition: slave


    1-A mean person; one in the lowest state of life.
    2-One who has lost the poser of resistance; or one who surrenders himself to any power whatever; as a slave to passion, to lust, to ambition.

    Quote
    Women were highly protected under the Jewish law due to the fact that they were highly vulnerable in society.
    the bible says the opposite !
    the Jewish law consider woman inferior and unclean during her menstruation !

    Leviticus 15 : 19

    When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.



    please read this :










    peace to you.
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by *اسلامي عزي*; 27-07-2014 at 06:35 PM.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    أنقر(ي) فضلا أدناه :


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    اللهمّ اهدنا و اهد بنا ،

    اللهمّ لا سهل إلا ما جعلته سهلاً، وأنت تجعل الحزن إذا شئت يارب سهلاً، اللهمّ سهّل علينا أمورنا واجعل أعمالنا خالصة لوجهك الكريم نلقاك بها يارب يوم
    الدين.

    آمين... آمين... آمين.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



  3. #63
    pandora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *اسلامي عزي* View Post
    i' do not think so !
    1- the supposed God of the universe can not win a struggle with One of his creatures ????
    Genesis 32 : 26
    I already explained Genesis 32:26 here.... What do we learn from Jacobs fight with God

    Quote
    2- the supposed God can not defend himself against the Roman soldiers who beat & spit on him !
    Matthew 27:30
    ***The Power to Lay It Down - John 10:17-18
    "The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again. No person takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life. And I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me."***


    Jesus didn't just die; he died with power and authority. His life wasn't taken from him; he laid it down willingly to die for our sins. His crucifixion was an apparent defeat for him, but turned into a lasting defeat for the Satan who sought to use his death to win a victory over God. No one could take Jesus' life. He gave it willingly to save us and purchase us from death. The Cross is God's power demonstrated in humanity's worst forum. It is our glory! You shall remain dead in your sins.

    Quote
    Sorry, I do not believe in a butcher who order the killing of babies just to achieve his presumed " justice" !
    I'm not alone who say this .
    the arabic-christian priest named George Khedr shares with me the same opinion !

    it is of no importance to me weather you believe in God or not... Or even what your Arabic Christian priest may believe on the subject. It would have been useful if you had included something of his statements on the matter.. Because saying he shares the same opinion as yourself... No offence... But that does not fill me with any confidence... Unless you have misunderstood what he believes as you tend to do with scripture. That is quite possible.

    Quote
    i ' repeat again : the applauses are not for me - a self congratulation - !
    they are for the Bible 's texts supporting my point .
    Yes.. But the Bible does NOT support your points.. You just think they do. There's a difference.

    Quote
    The Bible says the opposite !

    the hated woman's firstborn will receive a double portion !
    Nope... That's the law as it stood. A bit like the law in regards to inheritance in Islam.. Sons getting the greater share.. No difference here.. So what's your problem?

    Quote
    the meaning is clear like the mud
    Well! that's a shame. You would do well to read the parables of Jesus. You would understand Him the better if you did. Jesus is not the failure the Quran implies. It doesn't matter that you do not believe in Him or love Him.. But you should know He believes in you and loves you. Knock and the door is opened to you.

    Quote
    again :

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my
    lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    Romans 3 : 7
    not sure what point you are making here. No matter.

    Quote
    read this please :

    Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
    the slave =
    1 -A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.

    KJV Dictionary Definition: slave


    1-A mean person; one in the lowest state of life.
    2-One who has lost the poser of resistance; or one who surrenders himself to any power whatever; as a slave to passion, to lust, to ambition.
    As slaves of Allah do either of these definitions apply to you? I explained the meaning as understood from the biblical context. That you choose to see a different connotation to this is no surprise.


    Quote
    the bible says the opposite !
    the Jewish law consider woman inferior and unclean during her menstruation !

    Leviticus 15 : 19

    When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.
    I've deleted your round of applause because quite frankly.. It's yet again out of place. It's not even worth my time and effort explaining what this means.. I will say the same goes for men.. As in the emission of bodily fluids renders them unclean for a time. Are you not applying your double standards here though?? Does the Quran not state that a women who is menstruating should not fast or offer certain prayers and has to make up for what's missed after her menstruating period is over? Does Islam prescribe washing after sexual contact? Should a Muslim man refrain from sexual activity with his wife for a period of time following childbirth? Maybe as the Quran has similar requirements as the Old Testament on these matters it rather makes such comparisons a waste of time.

    Quote
    please read this :










    peace to you.
    Yes... Those ancient Patriarchs said some quite ridiculous things. It's a cause for sadness that such misogynistic ideas still permeate societies today.. Even Islamic ones. Where women may well have been granted many equalities in early Islam many women today do not enjoy those equalities. Women historically have always had a raw deal when men have made the rules. At least as a Christian woman I know that I am a spiritually equal with a Christian man before God. That's where it counts. Besides as women in most countries enjoy equal rights under the secular law of the land they live in.. Harping on about what a poor deal women may have had in the Middle Ages rather meaningless.

    Always a pleasure never a chore talking with you....

    peace to you.

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    I was going to answer but brother اسلامي عزي put it wonderfully , However there are two points I am going to talk about , pandora said:

    Is God right to be angered by godless behaviour and sin?? Where is the problem with God dealing with sin according to His divine knowledge and justice? Who are you to say God is not acting with mercy in ordering the deaths of children? You know all there is to God now????

    Where is the wisdom in killing thousands of babies???

    Your bible is your bible we do not believe in it so that you would come and say this is from god so you cannot say anything !!! This is just a statement from your side to run away from the facts


    You also said :

    ..Not sure why you're asking Christians when this is ancient Judaic law that is no longer in force. Anyway... At that time it wasn't uncommon for poor families to give their children up to slavery. Although Slavery wasn't as bad as we think of it today.. It was more like indenture or servitude. Instead of families letting their children starve or die from sickness, they would send them to be maids or farmers under a Master so that they could receive food, water, shelter, clothing, income, etc.. These "slaves" were treated more like servants or workers contract rather than our definition of slaves.


    To respond :

    First it does not matter if it was ancient law it is still as you claim from god the same god of peace and love in the new testament So we have a contradiction and the same god permitted such things

    Second:
    The idea that people would give up their sons and daughters to be slaves is a claim from your side with no evidence , there is a difference between being a servant and being a slave

    Third : Even so our point is not about slavery rather upon selling daughters to strange men to be there concubines . You probably already know that slave women during those times and in ancient judaic law can should ingage in sexual intercourse with her male master if he pleases. Therefore when someone sells his daughter at that time she is considered allegable for sex with her master. The same context itself talks about pleasing there masters and them being designated for there masters:

    7 “If a man sells his daughter as a female servant, she will not go out as the male servants do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreign nation, because he has dealt deceitfully with her.

    You also said :

    This passage is discussing the treament of female "servants" in specific. Women were highly protected under the Jewish law due to the fact that they were highly vulnerable in society. This is why we see so many extra laws of protection revolving around women

    Again there is a difference sometimes in the bible between servants and slaves .

    Second the jewish law did NOT PROTECT WOMEN rather most of it was done to take advantage of their vulnerability :

    If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

    What if the husband is lying what if he consumated the marriege and then accused her , how in the world can she prove her virginity ????

    She is condemed to death anyways there is no way to prove her virginity !!!! This law shows that the girl whether innocent or guilty is going to be stoned anyways !!! because he has already came unto her :

    22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her

    Another example is at the case of rape of a married woman or a woman to be married:


    Deuteronomy

    She dies because she did not shout loud enough !!!!!

    In the case of rapping an unmarried virgin she should marry her rapist !!!!:



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    What is your point with quoting the torah Allah sent down to your prophet as guidance and light?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    What is your point with quoting the torah Allah sent down to your prophet as guidance and light?
    Are you going to answer or try to change the topic as usual ?
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity

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Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity

Interview with Burninglight :. About the status of women in Islam and Christianity