The Paraclete question,

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The Paraclete question,

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  1. #1
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    Default The Paraclete question,

    The question of the Paraclete in John has widely been applied to Mohammed. Below is an extract from M.Khaleds article which I hope He does not mind me C&P here but I would like to address some of the points he has made which I see as misinterpreting the verses to mean something they do not. I though by using the article would save time if this in unacceptable to M.Khaled please say so and if that the case I will just post my opinions.. Article in blue..


    Christians believe that the paraclete or Comforter whom Jesus mentioned is the Holy Spirit. Actually this prophecy tells about Muhammad (Peace be upon him). How come? Let’s see what Jesus said:


    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

    The Comforter = Holy Spirit.. Mohammed was never a "Spirit" he was a flesh and blood person whom people knew. Yet.. None of the Disciples knew Mohammed. So how would Mohammed bring to remembrance the teachings of Jesus. Actually what were the teachings of Jesus Mohammed brought to remembrance of anyone? Jesus said that the Father will send the Comforter in His Name (Jesus). Do you believe that Muhammad was sent in the name of Jesus? Or do you believe Mohammed to be sent by God?


    The word” he shall teach you all things” can’t be applied on the Holy Spirit, because Christian scholars misinterpreted many issues. For example if we looked at the Early Church Fathers, we will find that many of them adopted heretic opinions, you can see this in my article Holy Spirit and Guidance. If all these misinterpretations and diversities among Christian sects occurred, then what is the job of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t he supposed to teach them all things? Otherwise this means that most of the Early Church Fathers whom Christians mainly depend on as they took their faith from them, and knew the Bible canons from them rejected the Holy Spirit when he told them the truth. This is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

    It can only be applied to the Holy Spirit.. For you to makes claims about ECF misinterpreted the meaning of the Holy Spirit in this instance I don't see has any foundation. You are once again reading things that are not there instead of reading what the words actually tell you.


    Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.


    This will consequently mean that either Christians took their doctrine and their faith from heretic church fathers, or that we have the first choice that the Holy Spirit will not be the Paraclete mentioned in that prophecy. But in case of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), he told us what to believe, what to do and not to do through what God revealed to him either in the Quran or in the Sunna, if a Muslim misunderstood a verse or had a wrong opinion, then he will be the one who is mistaken, not the Quran or the Sunna since we don’t believe that there is a Holy Spirit in us.

    As there is no proof of your claims against the ECF in regards to misinterpreting John 14:26 I'm not sure what you're basing your use of Mat 12:32 on. The first and only choice here is that the Paraclete referred to is John is the Holy Spirit and not Mohammed. The words of Jesus are quite clear in fact out of the handful of Bible verses muslims claim for Mohammed I believe the is the weakest of the lot.. And really all of them when looked at in context are pretty weak so that is saying something. Or are you asking us to believe on the basis of Mat 12:32 that speaking against Jesus will be forgiven but speaking against Mohammed would not?

    To be possibly continued...

  2. #2
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    The Comforter = Holy Spirit.. Mohammed was never a "Spirit" he was a flesh and blood person whom people knew

    A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:

    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by شمائل View Post
    A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above.
    My dear, are you presuming to put words in the mouth of Jesus? Jesus knew full well who is the Spirit... the fact is that God used exclusively masculine terms to refer to Himself and almost exclusively masculine terminology even in metaphor. Through the Bible He taught us how to speak of Him, and it was in masculine relational terms. So, while the Holy Spirit is neither male nor female in His essence...as the Spirit is of God.. He is properly referred to in the masculine by virtue of His relation to creation and biblical revelation. You will never hear the Holy Spirit referred to as "it" by any respectful Christian. What a shameful insult and you should be careful because to disrespect the Spirit is to disrespect God.

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    Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:

    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
    This does not refer to the Holy Spirit... We know there are other "Spirits"and not all are from God. This is a warning for us to test the Spirits. By testing the Spirits we can be sure that we are not led astray by false prophets who could be influenced by spirits from other than God. How do we do this? Simple.. Jesus gave us the answer.. Any prophet that brings a different Gospel to that which Jesus taught..is a false Prophet. Jesus taught only He was the way to the Father.. You can infer yourself where that leaves you.

    Theses are other verses regarding the Comforter.. How do you see Mohammed fitting the description here?

    JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."

    Jesus was obviously talking to the disciples here.. Mohammed never knew or loved Jesus. Jesus will ask the father to give another comforter.. To replace Jesus, as he knew His time on earth was coming to an end. The world does not see Him or knows Him.. But the disciples already knew the Spirit.. Because they knew Jesus and to know Jesus is to know the Spirit. Mohammed did not know either... Nor lived with the disciples or reside in them. I do not see this applies to Mohammed.


    JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

    Here Jesus is talking of what he has taught during His mission with the disciples. The Holy Spirit also knows these teachings and will guide the disciples to remembrance of all things. The Father will send the Spirit in Jesus' name. Was Mohammed sent in Jesus name? Or do you believe his revelation came to him in Allah's name? I do not see this applies to Mohammed.

    JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

    Jesus is saying He will send the comforter from the Father.. The Spirt comes out from the Father.. Implying that the Spirit and the Father have close community. The Spirit will testify about Jesus. Mohammed never testified about Jesus. I do not see this applies to Mohammed,

    JOHN 16:7,8: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment...."

    Jesus has to go before the Spirit will come. This implies Jesus has an intimate knowledge of the nature of the Spirit. The Spirit will convict the world of guilt.. Pass judgement on sin and righteousness. This is in the domain of God not prophets. I do not see this applies to Mohammed.


    JOHN 16:13-15: "But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it know to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

    The Spirit will guide into truth... Not by His own initiative but by the will of the Father. The Spirit will glorify Jesus and make known that Jesus shares in the Glory of the Father. Again this shows a strong sense of community relationship between God the Father, His Word Jesus and His Holy Spirit. Mohammed did not glorify Jesus.. But brought a different message. I do not see this applies to Mohammed.

    Peace to you.

  4. #4
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    David Benjamin Keldani:
    "The 'Paraclete' does not signify either 'consoler' or 'advocate'; in truth, it is not a classical word at all. The Greek orthography of the word is Paraklytos which in ecclesiastical literature is made to mean 'one called to aid, advocate, intercessor' (Dict. Grec.-Francais, by Alexandre). One need not profess to be a Greek scholar to know that the Greek word for 'comforter or consoler' is not 'Paraclytos' but 'Paracalon'. I have no Greek version of the Septuagint with me, but I remember perfectly well that the Hebrew word for 'comforter' (mnahem) in the Lamentations of Jeremiah (I. 2, 9, 16, 17, 21, etc.) is translated into Parakaloon, from the verb Parakaloo, which means to call to, invite, exhort, console, pray, invoke. It should be noticed that there is a long alpha vowel after the consonant kappa in the 'Paracalon' which does not exist in the 'Paraclytos.' In the phrase (He who consoles us in all our afflictions) 'paracalon' and not 'Paraclytos' is used. (I exhort, or invite, thee to work). Many other examples can be cited here. There is another Greek word for comforter or consoler, i.e. "Parygorytys' from 'I console'...The proper Greek term for 'advocate' is Sunegorus and for 'intercessor' or 'mediator' Meditea"
    The Paraclete in Codex Sinaiticus " Paraclete, the Spirit" NOT the Holy Spirit (greek penuma)
    A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"


    In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote:

    "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."
    The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135

  5. #5
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    Jesus was obviously talking to the disciples here.. Mohammed never knew or loved Jesus. Jesus will ask the father to give another comforter.. To replace Jesus, as he knew His time on earth was coming to an end. The world does not see Him or knows Him.. But the disciples already knew the Spirit.. Because they knew Jesus and to know Jesus is to know the Spirit. Mohammed did not know either... Nor lived with the disciples or reside in them. I do not see this applies to Mohammed.

    In the above verses we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.


    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


    1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."


    1 Samuel 11:6 "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."


    "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63:11)


    "For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)


    "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee." (Luke 1:35)


    "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost" (Luke 1:41)


    "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying," (Luke 1:67)


    "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him." (Luke 2:25)


    "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ." (Luke 2:26)


    "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:22)


    "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:21-22)


    Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (peace be upon him) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (peace be upon him)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (peace be upon him) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (peace be upon him) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.



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    I do not see this applies to Mohammed.
    You do not want to see it
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

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    Quote Originally Posted by marz View Post
    David Benjamin Keldani:
    "The 'Paraclete' does not signify either 'consoler' or 'advocate'; in truth, it is not a classical word at all. The Greek orthography of the word is Paraklytos which in ecclesiastical literature is made to mean 'one called to aid, advocate, intercessor' (Dict. Grec.-Francais, by Alexandre). One need not profess to be a Greek scholar to know that the Greek word for 'comforter or consoler' is not 'Paraclytos' but 'Paracalon'. I have no Greek version of the Septuagint with me, but I remember perfectly well that the Hebrew word for 'comforter' (mnahem) in the Lamentations of Jeremiah (I. 2, 9, 16, 17, 21, etc.) is translated into Parakaloon, from the verb Parakaloo, which means to call to, invite, exhort, console, pray, invoke. It should be noticed that there is a long alpha vowel after the consonant kappa in the 'Paracalon' which does not exist in the 'Paraclytos.' In the phrase (He who consoles us in all our afflictions) 'paracalon' and not 'Paraclytos' is used. (I exhort, or invite, thee to work). Many other examples can be cited here. There is another Greek word for comforter or consoler, i.e. "Parygorytys' from 'I console'...The proper Greek term for 'advocate' is Sunegorus and for 'intercessor' or 'mediator' Meditea"
    The Paraclete in Codex Sinaiticus " Paraclete, the Spirit" NOT the Holy Spirit (greek penuma)
    A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"


    In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote:

    "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."
    The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135
    Whatever you bring to show it did not apply to the Holy Spirit.. Really does not show it could apply to Mohammed... Or another person. The term.. Advocate, counsellor, intercessor, teacher, helper.. In the context of the verses found in John logically refer to the Holy Spirit. Jesus could have said He would send another prophet.. He referred to prophets past so He could have easily just said future Prophet. Then I would have expected a man of flesh and blood.. Even though a man of flesh and blood does not fit the remit of the verses in question here. However, I thank you for your contribution.

    Peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post

    As there is no proof of your claims against the ECF in regards to misinterpreting John 14:26 I'm not sure what you're basing your use of Mat 12:32 on. The first and only choice here is that the Paraclete referred to is John is the Holy Spirit and not Mohammed. The words of Jesus are quite clear in fact out of the handful of Bible verses muslims claim for Mohammed I believe the is the weakest of the lot.. And really all of them when looked at in context are pretty weak so that is saying something. Or are you asking us to believe on the basis of Mat 12:32 that speaking against Jesus will be forgiven but speaking against Mohammed would not?

    To be possibly continued...
    Actually I meant all heresies and false opinions by ECF not just regarding this verse, but actually regarding this verse you may see Tertullian who followed the false Montanus who claimed to be the paraclete:
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xii.ii.html
    The point is that the Holy Spirit didn't guide your church fathers, then these verses cannot be applied on him because simply the Holy Spirit in your concept doesn't exist since none of its signs are seen among Christians or even non Christians who should be rebuked on their sins, and if the Holy Spirit really rebukes non Christians for their disbelief, then there shall be no need for Christian missionaries as the Holy Spirit already does this job with non Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by شمائل View Post
    In the above verses we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.


    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


    1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."


    1 Samuel 11:6 "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."


    "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63:11)


    "For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)


    "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee." (Luke 1:35)


    "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost" (Luke 1:41)


    "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying," (Luke 1:67)


    "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him." (Luke 2:25)


    "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ." (Luke 2:26)


    "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:22)


    "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:21-22)


    Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (peace be upon him) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (peace be upon him)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (peace be upon him) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (peace be upon him) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.
    I can understand how you have come to the wrong conclusion here. You are correct that the Holy Spirit has been present many occasions throughout the Bibles long History. You don't understand or choose not to, the unique relationship we see between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit... And how the three work as one in unity. The Spirit brings understanding.. Not in words.. But rather innate understanding. During Jesus's mission on earth there was no need for the Spirit to bring understanding to mankind .. as per examples you have used in the verses above.. Jesus as Gods Word brought that understanding through direct human speech that mankind could relate to. Once Jesus had departed this life, then the Spirit was sent to reinforce what Jesus had taught. .. And guide the disciples to take that message to the Gentiles and the rest of mankind. Which they did..
    Whenever the Spirit appeared it was always to bring an understanding of Gods will and of His Word Jesus.

    So your supposed contradiction here is not a contradiction except one born of your own misunderstanding.

    Quote
    You do not want to see it
    That's not quite fair. It is muslims that tend to put a higher importance on logical evidence over faith.. But even so, I would expect any claim that is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus.. That makes the bold claim as coming from a prophet of God I am duty bound to take seriously. The Bible demands it of me.. My faith demands it of me.. And Jesus my saviour demands it of me. However, I am not to simply accept such claims blindly.. I am commanded to test the "Spirit" to determine the true from the false. For we know not all Spirits are good and true to God.

    If muslims had made the claim that the Quran was the inspired word of God as the Bible is, and God inspired Mohammed through revelation.. Like the prophets of the Bible were so inspired. I would have looked at it differently. However, the Quran makes the claim it is Gods words verbatim. That is where my problem lies.. For if it is so then there can be no error..or contradictions ... Of any kind. There are errors and contradictions. Had you said it was an inspired work I could have given it serious consideration.. For men make minor mistakes. No man is perfect except for Jesus. My faith in a Holy God will not let be accept anything I do not see conforms to His holy standard.

    Peace to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marz View Post
    David Benjamin Keldani:
    "The 'Paraclete' does not signify either 'consoler' or 'advocate'; in truth, it is not a classical word at all. The Greek orthography of the word is Paraklytos which in ecclesiastical literature is made to mean 'one called to aid, advocate, intercessor' (Dict. Grec.-Francais, by Alexandre). One need not profess to be a Greek scholar to know that the Greek word for 'comforter or consoler' is not 'Paraclytos' but 'Paracalon'. I have no Greek version of the Septuagint with me, but I remember perfectly well that the Hebrew word for 'comforter' (mnahem) in the Lamentations of Jeremiah (I. 2, 9, 16, 17, 21, etc.) is translated into Parakaloon, from the verb Parakaloo, which means to call to, invite, exhort, console, pray, invoke. It should be noticed that there is a long alpha vowel after the consonant kappa in the 'Paracalon' which does not exist in the 'Paraclytos.' In the phrase (He who consoles us in all our afflictions) 'paracalon' and not 'Paraclytos' is used. (I exhort, or invite, thee to work). Many other examples can be cited here. There is another Greek word for comforter or consoler, i.e. "Parygorytys' from 'I console'...The proper Greek term for 'advocate' is Sunegorus and for 'intercessor' or 'mediator' Meditea"
    The Paraclete in Codex Sinaiticus " Paraclete, the Spirit" NOT the Holy Spirit (greek penuma)
    A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"


    In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote:

    "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."
    The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135
    I was curious about this "Anchor Bible" seeing as you said it was famous and I had not heard of it. :) so I thought I would look it up and surprisingly it does not back up your claims as you think it does.. In fact if you posted the purpose of the article in full we can see the intention.

    “The word Parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johannine literature (the writings of John in the New Testament). In 1 John ii 1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. In five passages in John (xiv 15-17, 26; xv 26-27; xvi 7 – 11, 12-14) the title parakletos is given to someone who is not Jesus, nor an intercessor, nor in heaven. Christian tradition has identified this figure as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit. To test this claim we shall begin by isolating under four headings the information that John gives in the Paraclete passages, keeping the resultant picture distinct from what is said in the NT about the Holy Spirit.”

    The conclusion also makes interesting reading...

    CONCLUSION ON THE “COMFORTER” FROM THE ANCHOR BIBLE


    What brought the Johannine tradition to put emphasis in the Last Discourse on the Spirit as the Paraclete, that is, as the continued post-resurrectional presence of Jesus with his disciples, teaching them and proving to them that Jesus was victorious and the world was wrong? We suggest that the portrait of the Paraclete / Spirit answered two problems prominent at the time of the of the final composition of the Fourth Gospel……

    The first problem was the confusion caused by the death of the apostolic eyewitnesses who were the living chain between the Church and Jesus of Nazareth. …

    The concept of the Paraclete / Spirit is an answer to this problem. If the eyewitnesses had guided the Church and if the Beloved Disciple had borne witness to Jesus in the Johannine community, it was not primarily because of their own recollection of Jesus. …. Only the post-resurrectional gift of the Spirit taught them the meaning of what they had seen (ii 22, xii 16). Their witness was the witness of the Paraclete speaking through them…The later Christian is no further removed from the ministry of Jesus than was the earlier Christian, for the Paraclete dwells within him as he dwelt with the eyewitnesses. And by recalling and giving new meaning to what Jesus said, the Paraclete guides every generation in facing new situation; he declares the things to come (xvi 13).

    Finally, the Anchor Bible concludes here with:

    "The Christian need not live with his eyes constantly straining toward the heavens from which the Son of Man is to come; for, as the Paraclete, Jesus is present within all believers." (page 1143).

    It does rather support the belief that the Paraclete mentioned in John did was the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit did what Jesus said it would do.. Which was guide the disciples to remembrance of His teachings and proclaim these teachings through the Gospel to the world.

    Now, you may still believe that prophet Mohammed is mentioned somewhere in the Torah and the Gospel... But it is not as the Paraclete in John.

    Peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Khaled View Post
    Actually I meant all heresies and false opinions by ECF not just regarding this verse, but actually regarding this verse you may see Tertullian who followed the false Montanus who claimed to be the paraclete:
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xii.ii.html
    The point is that the Holy Spirit didn't guide your church fathers, then these verses cannot be applied on him because simply the Holy Spirit in your concept doesn't exist since none of its signs are seen among Christians or even non Christians who should be rebuked on their sins, and if the Holy Spirit really rebukes non Christians for their disbelief, then there shall be no need for Christian missionaries as the Holy Spirit already does this job with non Christians.
    Salaam M.Khaled, I must be honest with you here.. I am not a theologian but an ordinary Christian.. :) I confess I do not know enough about the early church father to do your questions justice.

    I personally believe that the Holy Spirit does indeed guide in matters of faith, and does bring understanding. Seeing as there is no coercion involved it's up to the individual to make what they will of any such guidance. In regards to being rebuked for sins.. Well we will all answer for our sins in due course will we not? I do not see there is a need for "Christian missionaries" except to maybe spread the Gospel which is a duty of Christians as it is also a duty of muslims to do Dawah. However... Spreading the Gospel does not mean that a persons words will change the heart, mind and soul of another.. Those words will fall on deaf ears without the quickening of the soul by God.. Through His Holy Spirit. You may read my words... I would not expect for one minute you will even look at them with any degree of interest.. If you feel that by reading your words I will change my mind and become a Muslim.. Then you attach too much importance to the power of your words. Only the power of the Word of God can change ones heart.

    Yet, I see all dialogue that brings understanding on any level especially when it dispels unfounded prejudices is to be a good thing. For many muslims in their efforts of Dawah seek to gain converts to Islam by discrediting the Previous scriptures .. And by doing so.. Or believing they are doing so.. The Quran must then win by default. There are some truly dreadful misunderstandings of biblical scripture to be found on this site and others and I wonder that you can ever convert anyone on such arguments. I feel the need as a Christian to offer explanations when I see these errors... Maybe I should not bother.. lol.. ;) with better reasoning you may have more success in your Dawah. But that does not bother me any.. I am not as arrogant to assume that anything I say can ever be as powerful as Gods Word... Jesus Christ.. :)

    peace to you.

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The Paraclete question,

The Paraclete question,