The first question to you Pandora do you believe that the Bible is the true word of God?
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The first question to you Pandora do you believe that the Bible is the true word of God?
Huria.. Is this your thread of proofs? You said you would answer my ...so far unanswered questions.. That being..
~ who corrupted the scriptures? ~ why the need to change the scripture? ~ and when did this happen? ~ I thought this was to be the topic... And you have the evidence..
Huria, I am a woman blessed by God with a great measure of patience.. I hope you are not going to try that patience sorely. ;)
To your question ... I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. It is not possible for such a Book to exist if it were not divinely inspired. As it is not possible for God to lie or deceive then the Bible has to be truth.
Im not sure if you want me to add anything else .. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why you even ask the question.
what I said was ~ The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. ~ how do you get it's not only God's word from that? Do you know what inspired means? I'm sure you do. A dictionary definition is at follows..
aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or as if by supernatural or divine influence: an inspired poet.
resulting from such inspiration: an inspired poem; an inspired plan.
inhaled: inspired air.
you already know that unlike the Quran the Bible is not ONE book, but a collection of Books. These Books contain the direct revelation from God to Prophets such as Moses.. Abraham etc. some Prophets received their revelations from God through dreams and visions. Other received their revelation by inspiration through the Holy Spirit. Inspiration is a given understanding of God's message that He wills to be relayed to mankind through His creation. Those conveying that message will use language of the time .. Their own words. The meaning behind those words are Gods. That is why we believe the Bible to be an inspired word of God. The teachings of Jesus we see as Gods word directly.. Because Jesus is Gods uncreated eternal word. The entire Bible as one book, you could say has one author, the Holy Spirit, and has one purpose the fall of man, and God’s way to redeem him, one theme. For example... you cannot understand the book of Revelation in the New Testament unless you study the books of Genesis and Daniel in the Old Testament.. You cannot understand the book of Hebrews in the New Testament unless you study the book of Leviticus in the Old Testament. Given that the creation of the Bible was over a period of 1500 by 40 different authors from all walks of life... On 3 continents it can only be inspired by God.. It would be impossible to produce such a work by mans efforts alone.
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete [mature], thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Lord Jesus said
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26)
I hope my explanation is clear enough.... And not overlong.
Peace to you.
So let’s see what you have said
The first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?
Please clarify ..
What do you mean??
Then you say this!
If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.
Huria, with all due respect I don't think this is going to work. You keeping promising evidences but don't deliver. ~ who changed the scriptures? Why did they feel it necessary? And when did they do it? ~ I can only assume that you don't actually have the information. Besides you don't seem able to understand anything I say, even when I make the effort to simplify things.. You still can't see it. I'm of the opinion that you can't allow yourself to see what I say.. Rather than you lack the intelligence... Because you obviously are intelligent and have an excellent command of the English language.. So I'm at a loss to see how we can get past this.
Given that we have a limited life span on this earth.. Is there any danger of getting to this "truth" any time soon? Chatting!!! Side talks!!! Indeedy.. If you just post your evidence to my questions I can consider what you have and see weather God will allow me to see the truth of it. If I cannot see the truth of it or it does not make sense then we may discuss it further or not...
I believe I said I was a wordy person... That's how God made me.. Get over it.
I always try to be as helpful as I can. But if you feel you have more to bring.. Then bring it on.QuoteNo dictionary needed, and I am not misquoting you, I am trying to understand, if you really think it is word of men I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.
Why are you confused by this?? God spoke His words directly to certain Prophets in the Bible.. Moses.. Abraham.. And Noah.. For starts. Jesus goes without saying..that's a given. Are you quibbling about who actually wrote down the words in the first instance? Or doubting that these direct spoken words of God to His chosen Prophets were not given due respect and treated in a shabby manner and who ever just made it up?QuoteSo let’s see what you have said
Direct words how did that reach us? By the gospels writers by inspiration from the holy ghost?
So I take it you obviously must know the names of all the scribes that first penned the Quran? Who gathered the fragments of various materials and copied it all into the form you have today.
maybe you're confused because you lack the knowledge of the Holy Spirit and all it entails. I can see that may be a possible stumbling block for you. The Holy Spirit inspires the minds of men.. Jesus promised the Spirit would strengthen the Disciples and enable them to remember correctly all He had taught and preach His message to all mankind. The Holy Spirit brings knowledge and understanding of Gods will, even today Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides us to the right path. The Holy Spirit does not dictate the words but brings an understanding of what needs to be told.QuoteThen you say the words of men inspired by the holy spirit?? So I am really confused here what do you mean!!!
I really cannot think how I can make things any clearer than that... If you still don't get the point I'm trying to make, then maybe this thread... Although well intentioned... Is doomed to failure before it even starts.QuoteThe first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?
Please clarify ..
What do you mean??
Its in your hands.. Peace to you
Still with itch the chit chat!!!!!!!
We do not believe that all the Bible is the actual words of God. We DO believe that all the Bible is the inspired word of God. That's to say.. The Prophets, authors.. Whatever .... were given the understanding and guidance by God as to what the Bible message was to be. That message is clear, consistent, has no contradictions or errors as you see there to be.
[QUOTE]If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.[/QURAN]
We see the Bibles message is clear, and consistent. Any work that bears the hand of man it is possible to contain error. This is even true of the Quran.. It has to be because if you claim that the hands of men who committed Gods word to written form in the Bible then the same has to be true of the Quran. Because the Muslim scribes were human and as such would have been prone to making the same spelling or textual errors. This should not affect the message any. Because Gods word (as in the message) cannot be changed.
Well, that's your belief.. Which in itself raises problems because any contradiction.. (And I believe there are quite a few... Although you would deny it. ) it then looks as if God has made a mistake, and as we know that is not possible.QuoteUnlike the bible, every letter in the Quran is word of God.
QuoteWell this is the first problem before deciding if the Bible was divine or not, how many books are divine 66 or 73?Not a problem for me at all.. Jesus was always the message not the messenger... If we have that we have everything we need. The books 66 or 73 or even more... Add a rich historical perspective to the unfolding of Gods plan for mankind. It's a beautiful, perfect plan.. One that can only be attributed to a Holy and loving God.Quote
It shouldn't be a problem for you either... As you have already bought out of the plan.. And made another choice. So it doesn't impact on your life on earth at all. :) so.. Have a good one .. Life that is..
peace to you.
Greetings once again Huria, apologies just one more chit chat point to add... You said..
please I do not need a thesis from you attempting to point out all the errors you see in the Bible, in the hope you can prove it is not an inspired work of God. That's been done before.. As exercises go I consider it a waste of time. Christians in general have faith that God guides as He wills. It's the understanding of the message that's important not the words that are used in the telling. That understanding comes from the Holy Spirit and anyone who accepts Christ the in dwelling of the Spirit is part and parcel of the package. I tell you this as I don't wish that you waste your time on a long drawn out pamphlet style post that will prove nothing in respect to my having faith in God, and accepting Jesus as my saviour.QuoteI have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.
Really what I would find useful is to see this proof you have to the three simple points I make...
who changed the scriptures? ~ when were they changed? ~ and why was it thought necessary to make the changes?
If you can offer your proof of these points I will be happy to read it.. If you have any proof of what exactly was changed then that's a bonus. But a big ask so don't knock yourself out on that one. :)
peace and blessings. May God guide you.
Quran 2:79 “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.”.
We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)
Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.
· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.
· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12
Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82
The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.
The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:
"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)
and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:
“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)
The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.
One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.
You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.
I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39
“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7
Last edited by huria; 11-05-2014 at 01:18 AM.
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