Is the bible today the true word of God?

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Is the bible today the true word of God?

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Thread: Is the bible today the true word of God?

  1. #11
    pandora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post
    Quran 2:79 “
    Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.”.


    Before I address your opening statement I would like if you please for you to explain to me what you take as the meaning of this Sura.

    Quote
    We do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!

    We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)

    Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
    Is this your opinion, the opinion of all muslims or just particular sects of Islam? The text below from Wiki.. The link is there if you wish to take a look and offer alternative proof.

    Due to the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in disjointed verses and chapters, a point came when it needed to be gathered into a coherent whole text. There are disagreements among both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars as to when the Qur'an was compiled. Some believe Muhammad compiled it before he died, while others believe it was collected by either Ali ibn Abu Talib or Abu Bakr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

    Quote
    Do not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are many
    Good.. I am pleased to hear that!

    Quote
    Wow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.

    Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?

    The scribe stage
    The translation stage
    Then who decide what goes on in the bible

    So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

    According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

    Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

    · The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)

    · who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.

    · Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least

    · Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.

    · Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!

    · “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”
    Quote
    The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595

    And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

    The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.


    Weather it be Gods word spoken to His Prophets by God Himself or Gods word brought through His Spirits inspiration it's one and the same. That you cannot see this is a slight cause for concern. We see it as the authoritative word of God and do not doubt Gods power to protect His word from all corruption.
    If you don't believe we have no original manuscripts left, or should I say in existence during the 7th century, how do you know what was corrupted? If there is no original you have nothing to compare to, so making claims of changes is nothing more than idle speculation.
    The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from.
    We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.

    Quote
    You keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.
    Yes! and I will keep asking this until you give me the answer you said you had to these three... for me, very important points. In fact that is really all the proof I wish to see. So please stop throwing straw men into the mix.

    Quote
    May be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!
    Quote


    There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20

    Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12

    Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12


    I probably could if I thought you were really that interested..... But I see you are just trying to be controversial. What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. They may make sense to you. I suggest Isaiah would be a good one to start. :) I always like reading the Book of Isaiah.. Very interesting prophet. I do not think he has a mention in the Quran or does he?

    Quote
    Christians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!
    This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand. You are talking of men, weak men and sinners. Are you so sure these types of men do not exists within Islam? Are all Muslim men righteous?

    Quote
    Although the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.

    "Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82

    The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.

    The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
    Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:

    "And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)

    and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:

    “It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)

    The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.

    One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.

    You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
    Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
    This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.

    I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39

    “And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7
    I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you so have no wish to discuss my feelings on the Quran with you. As I see it is OK for you to criticise, denigrate and abuse the Bible without censure it would not be ok for me to do the same with the Quran. Besides I would not wish to because I can respect the fact that it holds great importance to yourselves. May I just ask, and if it offends you don't have to answer.. Why are you so sure it was God speaking to Mohammed through Gabriel? How can you trust an Angel that brought a different message several hundred years earlier? I am guessing you would say you have faith that it is truth... Well.. I also have faith in Gods message as revealed in the Bible.

    I have to say I am a little disappointed with your replies so far... Some interesting points on your view of the Quran. But you did not address my questions. I was not asking much, just the answer to my 3 questions, which you sort of implied you could answer and even bring proof. It would be interesting if you clarified a bit on your opening statement, like what meaning you yourself take from it. I think it does have a baring on the topic in hand.

    Peace

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you.
    Pandora, rest assured it does not offend me the slightest, but you keep jumping from one point to another, your aim is clear you do not want to answer, so what best than thrown a little accusation here and there. All I am saying lets finish the topic at hand then you can put all your points against the Quran, after we are done with your book. So if you so sure of your book defend the points I brought not just choose what you like to address, and jumping from one point to totally different point.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. .
    What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand.


    In fact it has everything that with the topic, you keep telling us Christians are guided by holy spirit, and Christians even believe those who are closer to God are chosen by God and guided by holy spirit!! If these who are spouse to be closer to God do these acts, how about the ordinary Christians who are guided by holy spirit ??


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.


    Do not worry we will entertain you, and address your points from wikiislam but first answer the points I have raised. If you do not even know who wrote the book, how can you trust what in it?

    So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

    Here they are again
    Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

    The scribe stage
    The translation stage
    Then who decide what goes on in the bible

    So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

    According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

    Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

    • The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
    • who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
    • Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
    • Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
    • “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

    And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

    The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from. .
    Not the word!! Clever move, the only verse that you can use to defend trinity is by fake verse.



    Last edited by huria; 11-05-2014 at 02:04 PM.

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    Pandora, rest assured it does not offend me the slightest, but you keep jumping from one point to another, your aim is clear you do not want to answer, so what best than thrown a little accusation here and there. All I am saying lets finish the topic at hand then you can put all your points against the Quran, after we are done with your book. So if you so sure of your book defend the points I brought not just choose what you like to address, and jumping from one point to totally different point.
    Huria, this thread was where I thought you were going to answer my questions and provide your proof.

    Who corrupted the Bible? Why did they do it? And when did this happen?

    If you cannot answer these questions please just say so. This is the point you keep jumping from. So maybe it would be better if I refrain from answering all the other points you keep bringing into the mix until this.. What as see as my main point.. And on which I thought the discussion was going to be based on is dealt with. That is you answer with your proof or just say you cannot answer these questions. There's no shame to that.. I would prefer you say you don't know rather than all this beating around the bush and procrastination.

    I will answer your points as truthfully and honestly as I can, but can we please just get past this one little issue.... Pretty please..

    BTW.. It was Wikipedia ... Not wiki islam.. ;)

    looking forward in great anticipation to your answer.

    Blessings

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    Just re read your post.. I do hope we have not reached a stalemate already, :( honestly.. Just say if you even intend to answer my questions at some stage in the not so distant future.. And not just leading me down the garden path. And I will answer your points.

    Pax

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    Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.
    The other point is about the Holy Spirit guidance, I have made an article concerning this point:Christians always say that they believe in the Holy Spirit as the guider to the truth as Jesus said:

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

    As it is written about the function of the Holy Spirit:

    In Christian theology Holy Spirit is believed to perform specific divine functions in the life of the Christian or the church. The action of the Holy Spirit is seen as an essential part of the bringing of the person to the Christian faith.[48] The new believer is “born again of the Spirit”.[49] The Holy Spirit enables Christian life by dwelling in the individual believers and enables them to live a righteous and faithful life.[48] The Holy Spirit also acts as comforter or Paraclete, one who intercedes, or supports or acts as an advocate, particularly in times of trial. And it acts to convince the unredeemed person both of the sinfulness of their actions, and of their moral standing as sinners before God.[50] Another faculty of the Holy Spirit is the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit both inspires the writing of the scriptures and interprets them to the Christian and/or church.[51]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Christianity)

    So if all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the inspiration and interpretation of scriptures, why do Christians have that vast diversity among them in both aspects?

    Let’s talk first about inspiration, till now there is a diversity between Catholics and Protestants about the number of books of the Bible, as the Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66 only and believe that others are apocrypha. Ethiopian and Coptic churches have even more books.

    If we looked at the New Testament, although its canon has been settled now, but actually this wasn’t the case among early church fathers. There have been some books as epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas that were accepted by many fathers, now they are not in the NT canon. On the other hand, some of the books accepted now as second epistle of Peter, book of Hebrews and book of Revelations, this link can be a nice list made telling about the disputed books:

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

    If we are talking about Bible interpretations then we can see the diversity in faith among Christian churches, some of them are like having statues and images of saints, belief in Mary whether it is the mother of the Lord or not, immaculate conception, Holy Spirit himself who is supposed to guide Christians, Christians have diversity whether he is proceeded from the Father only or the Father and the Son, and here we go.

    Even among early church fathers as well, there have been many misinterpretations and opinions that are against Christian theology although Christians consider them as orthodoxy church fathers who fought heresy, and believe they had a role in proving the NT true by quoting verses in their books. Actually these orthodoxy fathers adopted non orthodoxy opinions, and this can be shown more in my article concerning church fathers and Bible preservation:

    http://jesus-is-muslim.net/church-fathers-bible/

    The question now is; if the Holy Spirit actually guides Christians, Why didn’t he guide the early fathers? Either he guided them and they rejected, this means that they are no more orthodox as they reject the Holy Spirit. Or that he didn’t guide them, which negates what Christians believe in the Holy Spirit guidance. If the Holy Spirit guides all Christians, why do we see many Christian sects? Yes many Christians among different sects believe their sect is the only true one, this question may not apply to them, but the first question still applies. Other Christians who believe the diversity among sects is not something major or believe to be non-denominational may need to have an answer to this question as well as the first question.

    So when Christians say that they are guided with the Holy Spirit, the answer shall be: which one?http://jesus-is-muslim.net/holy-spirit-and-guidance/

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    Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy.. :) given my nature and all.

    Quote
    What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!

    There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
    Firstly what is important with any Book from the Bible is to understand the context of time and historical place it was set and who was the target audience. You may not see this need as the Quran is just one work maybe context does not play such a big part. After all it's creation only spans about 22 years I understand whereas the Bible spans over 2000 years... The Jewish scriptures even longer. That out of the way onto Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel is a fairly long book of 48 chapters, however does have a logical, orderly structure that makes it easy to analyze and understand. It falls naturally into three main divisions... Which are (1) judgment on the nation of Judah (verses 4-24) which is where the verse that causes you such concerns stands (2) judgment on the surrounding nations (verses 25-32).. and (3) the future blessing of GOD's Covenant People (verses 33-48).


    Ezekiel was a priest who lived among the other citizens of the nation of Judah as a captive of Babylon during the years of the Captivity. His revelation came from God through visions which are described at the start of the book. he continued to receive these visions throughout his lifetime. His message was proclaimed to Gods covenant people and also the Gentile nations that surrounded the land of Israel.


    Its the first section of the book... Bit which you quote..that has Ezekiel describing GOD's judgment on the nation of Judah because of its rampant idolatry. It is written in the form of a parable, I am not sure if you have parables as a form of prophecy in the Quran, but in the Bible they are often used by many of the prophets and also Jesus.. I think it encourages the reader to see the deeper meaning behind words.. As words can sometimes be taken to mean something different to which they wish to convey... And the message is always more important than the just the words.

    The parable refers to the “whorish” behaviour of a pair of women as a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites from two nations... “Oholah which is Samaria, and Oholibah which is Jerusalem.” We take it that what the biblical interpretation tells us is that the message of Ezekiel 23 is a warning to the nations of Earth to not be godless in our actions toward other nations, or God will give permission for the other nations to kill the former. You may see the language as quite strong, but what you fail to see the world at that time was a harsh place and idolatry was rife. Sometimes harsh times demand harsh language and harsh actions if goodness is to prevail. You as a Muslim must understand that the main command from God is that He is the One God and only He is worthy of worship. People of the Old Testament understood Gods righteous wrath, yet many times they were so weak they slipped back to the sin of idolatry. You think God should ignore this?


    The next part of the book (verses 25-32) proclaims GOD's judgment against the Gentile nations surrounding the land of Israel. Included are judgments against Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.


    The final section of the book (verses 33-48) speaks of the future restoration of the people of Israel. GOD promised that His Covenant People would be restored to their homeland after their period of exile in Babylon. (Verses 40-48) describe the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the renewal of sacrifices and authentic worship. These chapters are similar in tone and content to the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation. Ezekiel ends by pointing forward to the glorious kingdom of Jesus the Messiah...

    I'll quickly address Ezekiel 4:12 seeing as it's from the same book..and I'm feeling kind... ;) this was written near the start when the people were living in captivity under harsh conditions.. When it states ..Thou shalt bake it with dung ... . Dried ox and cow dung was a common fuel and with this, for the lack of wood and coals, they were obliged to prepare their food. Indeed, dried excrement of every kind is gathered. When we see the prophet is to prepare his bread with dry human excrement...Btw .. we know that this did not come in contact with the bread, and was only used to warm the plate, on which the bread was laid over the fire, understanding it was common practice at THAT time and under THOSE circumstances.. It does not seem quite that horrific. Yet it goes to show the extreme degree of wretchedness to which they were exposed.. for, not being able to leave the city to collect the dried excrements of beasts, the inhabitants during the siege would be obliged, literally, to use dried human dung for fuel. However, if we read further we find that the prophet was relieved from using this kind of fuel, for cow's dung was substituted at his request.

    Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I am never offended by anything you may quote from the Bible. I would only ever be offended if I thought you were deliberately being disrespectful towards what I see as Gods message. Even then I would forgive you. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy..
    Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I
    Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
    I asked you where the original gone no answer
    I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

    Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

    How about answering my questions now??

    So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

    Here we are again
    Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

    The scribe stage
    The translation stage
    Then who decide what goes on in the bible

    So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

    According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

    Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

    • The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
    • who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
    • Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
    • Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
    • “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

    And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

    The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

    I am sure you will go off topic again !

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Khaled View Post
    Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.
    The other point is about the Holy Spirit guidance, I have made an article concerning this point:Christians always say that they believe in the Holy Spirit as the guider to the truth as Jesus said:

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

    As it is written about the function of the Holy Spirit:

    In Christian theology Holy Spirit is believed to perform specific divine functions in the life of the Christian or the church. The action of the Holy Spirit is seen as an essential part of the bringing of the person to the Christian faith.[48] The new believer is “born again of the Spirit”.[49] The Holy Spirit enables Christian life by dwelling in the individual believers and enables them to live a righteous and faithful life.[48] The Holy Spirit also acts as comforter or Paraclete, one who intercedes, or supports or acts as an advocate, particularly in times of trial. And it acts to convince the unredeemed person both of the sinfulness of their actions, and of their moral standing as sinners before God.[50] Another faculty of the Holy Spirit is the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit both inspires the writing of the scriptures and interprets them to the Christian and/or church.[51]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Christianity)

    So if all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the inspiration and interpretation of scriptures, why do Christians have that vast diversity among them in both aspects?

    Let’s talk first about inspiration, till now there is a diversity between Catholics and Protestants about the number of books of the Bible, as the Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66 only and believe that others are apocrypha. Ethiopian and Coptic churches have even more books.

    If we looked at the New Testament, although its canon has been settled now, but actually this wasn’t the case among early church fathers. There have been some books as epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas that were accepted by many fathers, now they are not in the NT canon. On the other hand, some of the books accepted now as second epistle of Peter, book of Hebrews and book of Revelations, this link can be a nice list made telling about the disputed books:

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

    If we are talking about Bible interpretations then we can see the diversity in faith among Christian churches, some of them are like having statues and images of saints, belief in Mary whether it is the mother of the Lord or not, immaculate conception, Holy Spirit himself who is supposed to guide Christians, Christians have diversity whether he is proceeded from the Father only or the Father and the Son, and here we go.

    Even among early church fathers as well, there have been many misinterpretations and opinions that are against Christian theology although Christians consider them as orthodoxy church fathers who fought heresy, and believe they had a role in proving the NT true by quoting verses in their books. Actually these orthodoxy fathers adopted non orthodoxy opinions, and this can be shown more in my article concerning church fathers and Bible preservation:

    http://jesus-is-muslim.net/church-fathers-bible/

    The question now is; if the Holy Spirit actually guides Christians, Why didn’t he guide the early fathers? Either he guided them and they rejected, this means that they are no more orthodox as they reject the Holy Spirit. Or that he didn’t guide them, which negates what Christians believe in the Holy Spirit guidance. If the Holy Spirit guides all Christians, why do we see many Christian sects? Yes many Christians among different sects believe their sect is the only true one, this question may not apply to them, but the first question still applies. Other Christians who believe the diversity among sects is not something major or believe to be non-denominational may need to have an answer to this question as well as the first question.

    So when Christians say that they are guided with the Holy Spirit, the answer shall be: which one?http://jesus-is-muslim.net/holy-spirit-and-guidance/
    Jazak Allah khair brother for your great input, I like the example you gave for the murdered guy, I showed her how her book was murdered, both Luke and Mathew copied from Mark, all the points I raised about the assumed writers of the gospels, then she is asking, is it really murdered? How is it murdered?

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    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post


    Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
    I asked you where the original gone no answer
    I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

    Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

    How about answering my questions now??

    So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

    Here we are again
    Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

    The scribe stage
    The translation stage
    Then who decide what goes on in the bible

    So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

    According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

    Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

    • The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
    • who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
    • Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
    • Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
    • “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

    And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

    The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

    I am sure you will go off topic again !
    Ok..my patience at an end.. Forget it Huria. You cannot play fair. You ridicule scripture, you make ridiculous claims with no evidence.. And when asked to bring proof that you say you have to hand then you will not do so. Three little questions I ask.. Just three. Yet you bombard me with a long list of points and demand I answer each and everyone. If I do answer you dismiss it out of hand.!!!! I thought we could have got somewhere and achieved some level of understanding through dialogue. I see now that is not your aim.

    What on earth is the point you want to make.? If I say "oh you are right and the Bible has errors because men wrote the words" will you then answer by questions? NO.. I don't believe you will because you have nothing. No proof of your claims of Bible corruption because no proof exists except that which is born in your minds.

    Get this.. It doesn't matter to a Christian what muslims think or believe about the Bible. Because it means nothing to you... Yet means everything to us. To you your Book to me mine..

    I wish you well on your chosen path. Peace.

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    Pandora in another thread says

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    Honestly, a tip for you. Do not use the King James Version..at least not the original version if you have to use it at all choose the revised version. King James no doubt meant well, but there are many textual errors.. Hence why it's been revised :) you should cross reference with other translations if you wish to compare. I doubt you would find any great degree of difference in the central message. Which is what Gods word is about.. The message.. And that is something that cannot be corrupted by the hands of men. I know that because God makes that claim. . .
    So translations contain errors, you consider these translations word of God.
    Let me see how the central message cannot be lost if we omit a word from that sentence
    The verse says I am NOT God
    Translators will translate it I am God

    No central meaning lost here!!

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Is the bible today the true word of God?

Is the bible today the true word of God?